'Chun is dead... I don't even think she'll be a good pocket character for characters like Zangief and Laura' - Lud on Chun-Li and the patch notes

Posted by Justin 'AdaptiveTrigger' Gordon • March 19, 2017 at 11:50 a.m. PDT

Continuing on with getting the opinions of top Street Fighter 5 players, I decided to reach out to Ludovic 'Lud' Mbock on his impressions of the upcoming patch, as well as the status of Chun-Li in Season 2.

While Chun-Li didn't really get directly affected by the patch, I felt it was important to get his opinion on if Chun-Li actually needed any changes based on how things are shaping up in Season 2 so far.

Lud also had some opinions to give on the status of some of the game's current top tiers as well.

AdaptiveTrigger: As of right now for Season 2, where do you think Chun-Li falls on the tier list? What are her match ups like?

Lud: Season 2 Chun is mid to low tier. She is in the same group as Ryu, Vega, and Juri.

In Season 1, she won almost all her match ups and had a couple of even match ups. Now, with all the nerfs she received, her match ups have only gotten worse for her.

She only beats Alex and that's not saying much in this season. The rest of the cast can put up a good fight against her or just beat her now.

AdaptiveTrigger: So Chun-Li only had one change, which neither buffed nor nerfed her. Do you think Chun-Li is in a good spot for Season 2 since her changes from Season 1?

Lud: This game is heavy with offense and doesn't favor zoning characters that much except for Guile, but even he has to apply pressure sometimes.

Her offense, damage, and zoning were nerfed from Season 1. She's not in good spot.

I don't even think she'll be a good pocket character for characters like Zangief and Laura.

AdaptiveTrigger: Did Chun-Li need additional adjustments in this upcoming patch, in your opinion? Were there any particular changes you were expecting or hoping for?

Lud: Yes, she needed buffs. Her throw range could be better.

While the [instant air lightning legs] nerf was okay, the pushback on her normals, and the nerfs to standing light kick and crouching light punch were too much. She needs those back from season 1.

Her fireball recovery [also] needs to go back [to how it was in] Season 1.

AdaptiveTrigger: What is your general reaction to the patch notes? Do you think enough was done and the right changes were made?

Lud: Well they didn't fix the input lag, which I think makes characters like Balrog, Laura, and Ibuki extremely good since you cannot react to them. They didn't touch Balrog at all.

They buffed Cammy and Zangief. They also buffed some of the lower tier characters which is good.

AdaptiveTrigger: How do you think the balance of the game will shape up compared to how it is currently?

Lud: The game for sure will be more balanced than the previous versions.

I'm not sure about Zangief though. he might be broken, lol.

Chun, Juri, Ryu and Nash will have to work harder for their wins.

AdaptiveTrigger: What is the change you are most happy to see?

Lud: Ummm… I'm not happy. Chun is dead.

Well maybe Urien and Guile nerfs.

No Laura standing medium kick nerfs though. How did she get away with that?

AdaptiveTrigger: Are there any changes that you find particularly puzzling?

Lud: Zangief getting 3 new moves. Enough said.

AdaptiveTrigger: What tier shifts are you expecting to see once the patch launches?

Lud: I think the tier list will remain the same, but with Vega going up and Alex not belonging in the trash tier anymore. Urien will no longer be super stupid, but Balrog, Laura and Rashid will still be really dumb.

Dhalsim and Akuma will also be stronger.

AdaptiveTrigger: How did the patch notes match up with your expectations?

Lud: I didn't think Chun was getting any buffs. It seems people still have nightmares of her from Season 1.

Balrog damage not [getting] nerfed was a surprise and also Bison ex devil's reverse not touched was shocking.

AdaptiveTrigger: What are your goals for 2017?

Lud: I will still be playing a lot and going ton as many tournaments I can go to. I'm learning a new character that I will be using at tournaments along with Chun.

I know I'm the Chun loyalist but Street Fighter 5 is not a game I like to just stick with the struggle. This Chun is very boring and [is] just a poking machine in a game where poking only takes you so far.

AdaptiveTrigger: Where can our readers find more of you? Any shout outs you’d like to make?

Lud: I'm mostly on Twitter, @Ludthinks, so please follow me.

Shout outs to my sponsor, @NoSurrenderNS. They're super cool and my Coin Up guys.

And last but not least, to all the Chun players who are thinking about dropping - you have my approval. Thank You!

A big special thanks to Lud for taking the time to speak with us on the subjects of Chun-Li in Street Fighter 5 and the patch notes.

Photo source: Chris Bahn.

Comments

Pachendrix said on March 19, 2017 at 11:59 a.m.

And now that they nerfed charged moves, she's hitting rock bottom, and then some. Meanwhile Cammy gets buffed, because "balance!"...

#1
mykka said on March 19, 2017 at 12:01 p.m.

I'd say with the exception of FANG, she'll be the worst in the game after the patch is released

#2
PNS_SHOGUN said on March 19, 2017 at 12:03 p.m.

We wanted balance, not madness.

#3
mUpKnrush said on March 19, 2017 at 12:04 p.m.

She has one more button press on legs. Chun is dead.

#4
MooMeowCat said on March 19, 2017 at 12:05 p.m.

Just give her stand fierce a crush counter so she can actually convert damage from pokes or something. Or give us the super fun Chun back in the earliest stages of development, the one with tensho kyaku and flashy spinning kick thing in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3H0p...

#5
SnakeofNinjutsu said on March 19, 2017 at 12:05 p.m.

Ppl still complaining about Laura's st.mk? It's your turn after you block it. I guess ppl don't go to training.

#6
KamfPudding said on March 19, 2017 at 12:05 p.m.

Never had a problem with Chun. The only thing which troubled me was that her damage from light combos were too high.
And I'm still waiting for the returning aerial spinning bird kicks.

#7
dugthefreshest said on March 19, 2017 at 12:06 p.m.

I love how point blank Heavy attacks are safe in this game, but not shoto fireballs.

#8
Goukendo said on March 19, 2017 at 12:06 p.m.

I really don't know who to main at this point.

#9
r0my5 said on March 19, 2017 at 12:07 p.m.

Ricki is dropping Chun and Go1 switching to Guile as well. Don't expect to see the character anywhere near the top in tournaments

#10
FightDirty said on March 19, 2017 at 12:07 p.m.

Considering they hardly changed her at all while buffing some characters & nerfing others, I'd say she should stay around mid-tier just like before. Hardly dead, just an uphill battle against the better characters. Guess we'll have to see how the patch notes translate into real gameplay.

#11
FightDirty said on March 19, 2017 at 12:09 p.m.

That sarcasm is top tier. Love it!

#12
Darc_Requiem said on March 19, 2017 at 12:09 p.m.

People didn't bother to learn the Laura matchup in Season 1.

#13
Cmon_Get_Serious said on March 19, 2017 at 12:12 p.m.

Well hey when in doubt, always go Ry...

...oh yeah

#14
CKNG said on March 19, 2017 at 12:13 p.m.
#15
Rahul_S said on March 19, 2017 at 12:14 p.m.

from best character in S1 to 2nd worst in S2 thanks cpacom :)

top notch balancing team

http://i.imgur.com/0mKXcg1.gif

#16
Pachendrix said on March 19, 2017 at 12:15 p.m.

You'll probably still see Nuki who's been the best Chun on the planet pretty much since forever. Then you'll see 1 single Chun, from one of Japan Gods, make it to top 32, followed by an article in EventHubs explaining how Chun really is good, because the best Chun in the world made it to top 32 in one single tournament.

#17
doctajoe said on March 19, 2017 at 12:15 p.m.

Looks like the season 1 complainers got what they wanted.

And @MooMeowCat, Chun looks awesome in that vid. Would love for her to get some cool stuff like that in "season 3".

#18
Pachendrix said on March 19, 2017 at 12:16 p.m.

FANG has something to say about that meme.

#19
That_guy_who_plays_DOA said on March 19, 2017 at 12:16 p.m.

Hey y'all. Zeph will be here soon to tell you that everything until now was part of Capcom's genius plan to balance the game, that you should read up and practice before b*tching, and how his main Nash got overly nerfed and Fang is secret top tier.

#20
roiwa said on March 19, 2017 at 12:16 p.m.

This.

#21
Rahul_S said on March 19, 2017 at 12:19 p.m.

Final round 20 MOV can`t even make it to top 50.

#22
snk0610 said on March 19, 2017 at 12:20 p.m.

Chun Li was never top tier.
also on season 1 she wasn't top tier.
none of the pros made it with season 1 chun li
to the top 10 on pro tournaments ranking.
And Cammy with the new changes coming
still won't be strong as season 1.
don't forget she used to have an invincible uppercut.
she doesn't have that anymore.

#23
Pachendrix said on March 19, 2017 at 12:21 p.m.

I know, and Ricky went 0-7 during fighting underground. But I'm telling you, watch how one single player will make it to top 32 in one single tournament. And the Capcom white knights will use that to say she's good, and that one single tournament is more evidence than months worth of data.

#24
RWA_Announcer said on March 19, 2017 at 12:22 p.m.

VesperArcade made a video earlier today explaining this in detail. They're not NERFING Charge moves, they're actually BUFFING them in this patch. They're increasing INPUT LENIENCY on them, not the length of Charge times. In Season 1, you had a 12-frame buffer window. In the current build of Season 2 that we're playing, it's been chopped in half, to a mere 6-frame window. In the April patch, that window is getting increased to 10 frames, so you'll have more time to hit the button AFTER you Charge and let go of the direction, before you lose it. Her, and every other Charger in the game's, combos are getting EASIER to do, not harder.

#25
Ralycer said on March 19, 2017 at 12:25 p.m.

Charge changes is a buff next patch.

#26
malcrash01 said on March 19, 2017 at 12:26 p.m.

Cammy is now the SF4 Yun in terms of balancing

#27
SlashmentEXE said on March 19, 2017 at 12:27 p.m.

Yes she was, quit trying to be "that guy" please.

#28
Doh_Simpson said on March 19, 2017 at 12:27 p.m.

That was the most fun SFV had ever looked I swear. I'm just hoping MVCI is like that.

#29
CODYYY said on March 19, 2017 at 12:31 p.m.

meh..... kill her.... and take ryu, nash and fang with you.

i dont wanna see ryu until he gets his joudan back from third strike for more combo possibilities. the move is actually one of my favorite specials in street fighter lol.

chun is just too boring and i cant stand nash playstyle

fang. i just hate the character. thank god xian dropped him

#30
el_Principe_de_Lety said on March 19, 2017 at 12:31 p.m.

So is this the future of SFV? Everyone hopping from one character to the next, instead of adapting to the changes?

#31
Kumageri said on March 19, 2017 at 12:34 p.m.

Capcom gave people what they wanted: a dead Chun. Now they complain that wasn't what they asked for...

Watching Ricki go 0-7 from the last tournament was so sad. And it wasn't her fault. Chun can only throw medium and fierce punches and that's pretry much it. She has zero deffense, she can't apply any kind of pressure so she loses against everything no matter what. You can't even antiair so people is free to jump in on you as much as they want. She deals no damage unless the rival makes a huge mistake and you happen to have lots of meter. Her vtrigger and CA were reduced to sh1t so not even by using both can she hurt the rival that much. RIP Chun. We may see you again in season 3. Fingers crossed.

#32
Balrog1984 said on March 19, 2017 at 12:34 p.m.

Damn your dumb lol, charges are getting easier!

#33
CreepShowKid said on March 19, 2017 at 12:36 p.m.

yup, "my character is no longer top tier, i have to work a little harder? No thanks, i'll just let tier list control who i pick"

my opinion, no matter what buffs/nerfs my characters get i'm still going to be using Karin as my main and FANG as my secondary, been that way since release day and it'll be that way til i die, or they put Sakura in

#34
Pachendrix said on March 19, 2017 at 12:37 p.m.

Glad I was wrong about that, and thanks for explaining it. Something like this should've been explained with the patch notes, because outside of being a frame data monster, you'd think it's a nerf. It still doesn't help Chun in anyway, but I guess not being a nerf is a "good thing".

#35
NightmareTKO said on March 19, 2017 at 12:37 p.m.

It must be frustating as a fighting game developer when it comes to balance. The constant bemoans from the player base no matter what you do seems incessant.

Im not dissing Lud, his complaints are fair and he's loyal to his character, but EVERYONE wants 'x' character to be good or 'y' character to be able to do 'z' when it's not that simple.

All it took for Evil Ryu to be the unanimous best character in USF4 was for him to not die as quickly as Akuma. That health buff literally shot him up from mid~low to the tippy top. But that was fine, that game was balanced.

This game is balanced too, but I feel Capcom is listening far too much to player input. They made the game, they should balance it as they want.

#36
metaf4 said on March 19, 2017 at 12:37 p.m.
(This comment was hidden because it was down voted. You can view it by clicking here.)
#37
Pachendrix said on March 19, 2017 at 12:41 p.m.

It's funny how after having someone explain it, now everyone thinks they're smart. Lol Stay free m8.

#38
thricebang said on March 19, 2017 at 12:42 p.m.

She def got overnerfed, along with Ryu, Ken and Nash.

#39
ImaPlayThis said on March 19, 2017 at 12:43 p.m.

So a character who was strong was overly nerfed and now made useless and not viable... Well I never /s

#40
RWA_Announcer said on March 19, 2017 at 12:43 p.m.

No problem. You should check out his video. He explains really well, and even blows them up for their poor wording. I went from having NO IDEA what it meant to fully understanding it in about 7 minutes. It's actually a really good quality of life change for the game as a whole, just like the V-Reversal fix, Fuzzy Jump OS going away, and Necalli's Raging Light becoming the new "standard" for DP properties, IMO. I do agree she should've been buffed though. I just want her old damage back. They can keep AA Lights, and the Plus IALL!

#41
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 12:43 p.m.

Why the hell this character changed to her SFIV version? No one asked for that.
I didn't buy this game to play her SFIV version. Now even her SFIV version is stronger than season 2 version.
This is a big fat joke.

#42
RWA_Announcer said on March 19, 2017 at 12:45 p.m.

And he's getting some of his legs back next patch. Capcom even agreed they overnerfed him. Granted, the Chun army's still intact, save for Sako, despite Ricki getting bopped lately, so I still feel like she has some juice, even if I also agree with Ortiz that they overdid it on her just a bit.

#43
doctajoe said on March 19, 2017 at 12:45 p.m.

At pro level, when money is on the line, yeah it makes sense to drop a character when it gets nerfed to the point of no longer being viable. Even money aside, it's very humiliating for someone like Ricki Ortiz to go 0-7 at a tournament, especially after finishing at 2nd Place at Capcom Cup.

I think Chun mains would have gladly adapted to the changes if the nerfs were just on IALL, st. HP and st. LK. But when your entire move list gets nerfed, it feels more like the design team is telling you to switch characters.

#44
Galletano said on March 19, 2017 at 12:51 p.m.

I love Chun, she is my main atm. But I'm not planing to enter any tournament.

#45
Zephyrus said on March 19, 2017 at 12:52 p.m.

they nerfed charge moves? When?

edit: well I can see you got educated.

#46
CityHunter said on March 19, 2017 at 12:58 p.m.

A year ago : Chun is broken nerf her capcom
Now : Why did you nerf her capcom thats not what he asked

#47
kentoirc said on March 19, 2017 at 1 p.m.

People were throwing all kinds of shade at us Gief players 6 months ago...now you guys are afraid...good ):<.....VIVA LA GIEF!!!!!

#48
Zephyrus said on March 19, 2017 at 1 p.m.

Nash players have no excuse?

You kidding?

The best Nash player in the world barely wins with him and he ABUSES the jump back OS like crazy. With it's removal, Nash gets nerfed once again. He still can't wakeup, still has no reversal, every single season 2.5 "buff" is still a nerf compared to the season 1 version of that move.

Adapt to what? To everyone getting better while he gets worse and worse after each change capcom makes?

He was nerfed when the input lag was reduced by 2 frames. He was extremely nerfed in the season 2 patch. And he's nerfed again.

Now more than ever if Nash falls to the ground, he loses.

But Nash players have no excuse. Meanwhile Vega and Fang players scam everyone. Ok.

#49
Zephyrus said on March 19, 2017 at 1:03 p.m.

As for chun being dead... lol get real.
She should've only been nerfed on her air lightning legs and her standing lk.
The nerfs to standing hp and her v-trigger duration was slightly overkill, but she's still fine.

LOL at Lud saying she doesn't beat Nash or Ryu. Get the f*ck out of here.

#50
Zephyrus said on March 19, 2017 at 1:05 p.m.

Nah, I'm here to tell you to go f*ck yourself scrub.

#51
CityHunter said on March 19, 2017 at 1:08 p.m.

Also why are people mad Gief is getting new moves? If its make the character more fun where the problem? And you whats funny? People say Gief is not top tier and yet they complain when he gets buff.

#52
Green016 said on March 19, 2017 at 1:10 p.m.

I'm so sick of people crying about Gief when he's not even that good. People that don't play Gief shouldn't whine about him cause frankly you have no idea how difficult it is to win with him against good players. The real issue is the people in charge of balancing this game have no idea what they're doing. Couple that with the input lag and the fact that you can't react to anything in this game. That's the real issue.

#53
NaughtyJuri said on March 19, 2017 at 1:10 p.m.
(This comment was hidden because it was down voted. You can view it by clicking here.)
#54
Zephyrus said on March 19, 2017 at 1:14 p.m.

I saw plenty of Cammy players in top 8. K-brad, Xiaohai, Poongko and Kazunoko just to name a few.

On another note, I hope Bonchan drops Nash. He's the only one still using him competitively. Maybe then all the idiots at this website can start saying the character needs buffs instead of crying about characters that don't.

#55
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 1:22 p.m.

Dude,
she's got nerfed with EVERY SINGLE attack (cr LP hurts the most, st LP, st LK, cr MK, st HP, cr HK, st HK,
got push backs on lights
-20 damage on every attack
Vt duration +
all her hitboxes+
jump attacks recoveries +
cross up recovery and hit box+
m.airlegs (IALL slower start up, minus on block, tighter execution window on hit
HK airlegs almost twice slower (juggle combo finisher)
+ minus on block the most normal moves
+ fireball, dashes, v-reversal universal nerfs as well

She's not as half good as she was before and the most annoying part of it that her design changed, different combos etc while the most of the cast plays the same things as season 1.

#56
Kumageri said on March 19, 2017 at 1:23 p.m.

When exactly did Cammy stop shining? She was good and she is still good and she's getting better, so what are you talking about? Chun was good and now is sh1t and she's not getting any better, not one single bit, while the rest will stay good or even better.

#57
Heta said on March 19, 2017 at 1:26 p.m.

More moves a bad thing? Dang I play the whole cast time to time so I absolutely love it. I don't know what's better a new character or devs giving more moves to the existing roster. Well this is a problem to pros I guess then. I still believe in you Chun!

#58
Lucius said on March 19, 2017 at 1:30 p.m.

i knew it'll ends like this the moment i saw all the randoms crying back in s1.

#59
BlankaBeast said on March 19, 2017 at 1:35 p.m.

It could be worse, he could play Nash.

Literally last on the matchup tier list only beating Ryu and Zangief who both got buffs.

Chun did suffer most from s1 to s2 so I CAN see his perspective being hardest to adjust because of that.

Ryu, Chun, and Nash could use damage buffs or a bit more health.

#60
MEETHEGROUCH said on March 19, 2017 at 1:37 p.m.

They definitely need buffs to improve on their normal combos and damage.

#61
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 1:39 p.m.

No one can convince me that capcom development team know what they're doing after all these changes. It seems like they're doing the balancing in a drunk state.

#62
Syirine said on March 19, 2017 at 1:41 p.m.

Some people actually thought that was a nerf lol.

#63
Crodacus said on March 19, 2017 at 1:45 p.m.

Cammy shined quite well in season 1. Are you new?

#64
xDONx said on March 19, 2017 at 1:57 p.m.

Dude, in the patch notes they stated that they were reverting some changes in the charge moves they made in S2. I really don't know why anyone assumed that charge moves would be harder to do, lol.

Hold frames for charge moves:

The number of frames necessary to complete a charge has been increased from 6F to 10F.

The initial change, where we reduced the total number of frames needed to perform a charge move, was made to keep unintentional attacks from coming out. Unfortunately this has made those same charge moves all that much harder to pull off.

#65
ijuka said on March 19, 2017 at 2:01 p.m.

Honestly all Chun might need is removal of the moronic billion frame delay on canceling s LP into specials. That'd allow her to have fun, extended lightning leg combos with good dmg(That's not below everyone else's like now) and would, you know, make sense.

Also, they should remove the delay on b HP cancel. That totally ruins many of her block pressure strings as well as her situational corner combos or block strings. Combined with the IAL changes, they just removed or completely nerfed everything that made Chun fun.

It's very sad that I had to switch because she used to be a lot of fun, regardless of balance. I'd have preferred other characters to get buffed instead or at least just her damage being nerfed instead of just making her unfun to play as.

#66
Freddie_Wompton said on March 19, 2017 at 2:04 p.m.

Let's clarify a few things here....
A) Ricki lost because of her main? Shut up. Remember how many majors Daigo won is S1 with Ryu? (Who was a god at the time) Oh wait, he barely did. You all complain, yet Final Round just saw S2 Mika and Ibuki in its GFs. Must be nice to be so in the know about everything. Why does everyone assume that if a pro loses, it's the character's fault and not the players? Like good lord people, pros can lose too, contrary to popular belief. To quote something I saw once. "If you don't think your character can win a tournament while you're playing them. Either ADAPT, stop playing, or pick a new character."

B)I'll never understand how everyone in the FGC thinks they have the god eyes for balancing. Like if you put the community in charge, we'd get a balanced game. Ya'll need to f****ng stop now.

#67
RunningWildVidya said on March 19, 2017 at 2:05 p.m.

Good riddance. Chun is top tier in enough SF games as it is.

#68
Kumageri said on March 19, 2017 at 2:07 p.m.

That's the key point: she's not fun to play as anyomre. Playing as SFIV Chun was hard, you had to work a lot harder for your wins than with other characters, but she was fun. S2 SFV Chun is like that or worse but without the fun factor. Seriously, Inwas watchingnRicki Ortiz the other day and it was painful. She can't possibly be having any fun with this sh1t-tier Chun.

#69
metaf4 said on March 19, 2017 at 2:10 p.m.

BRUH! Do you actually read entire posts or do you just skim over posts until you see the word "Nash", "get gud" or "nurf" in a sentence and then you just go off!

Bro, I literally said that Nash players have a LEGIT gripe because he actually GOT NURFED....and somehow, some way you STILL found a way to just go nuts in the comments section to bash my post. Gezus! Do you even want people to feel sorry for you and your precious Nash concerns? You literally just come off as an online warrior cry baby that still does Beta tech and because it no longer works, you are now validated to gripe until he's reverted back to Beta status!?!

He was originally designed to be an offensive character. (Thus no charging) He ended up being too strong in defense as well and they nurfed him for it. Stop with the excuses and ADAPT! Yes I said it...ADAPT! You either need to adapt to playing a more aggressive Nash or stop being reckless with your attacks and work on your neutral game. You CLEARLY ain't on Bonchan's level so stop acting like you're some Godlike Nash player that is now reverted to a scrub status because your precious Sonic Scythe and dashes got nurfed. (Of course YOU will tho and add another 20 things to this listl of things that make Nash nonviable in ANY matchup. smh)

He gets Season 2.5 buffs back and you STILL gripe. They reduce input lag and you STILL gripe...At this point, you literally want Beta Nash back or we gotta see your Nash Thumbnail on every single EH post whining about how he's "Trash" tier.

WE GET IT BRUH! He's TRASH now! Either main someone else or how about instead of getting "gud"...how about just getting in the lab and get BETTER!

#70
Zephyrus said on March 19, 2017 at 2:12 p.m.

so did nash.
Unlike her, however, he lacks good walkspeed and a reversal.

And while I do agree that she was overnerfed, she's in a much better place than Nash, Juri, Alex or Ryu. And I'm counting the buffs they get in the upcoming patch.

Strangely you forget that she got more combo options now and her combos are now easy to perform. She has everything. But instead of being the absolute queen she was in season 1, she's now a jack of all trades. She doesn't excel, but she doesn't underperform either.

Holding on to tournament players dropping characters as a mean of balance (read: make my character the best) is stupid and will forever be stupid. Pro players will use the characters that they feel will give them an easier win. And with how much money there is on the line, anything that improves their odds will be used over the rest.

If you want to know what it feels to play a bad character pick Ryu, Alex or Nash.

Alex having literally the worst command grab in the game, despite being a grappler and getting no oki off of it is ridiculous. He shouldn't have Gief's range, but he shouldn't need to be in point blank range either. Either give him range or give him better oki for him to continue his pressure.

Ryu gets the worst pressure out of all shotos yet for some reason, doesn't get a faster fireball. His regular fireball should be as fast as his v-trigger one and his v-trigger one should be as fast as guile's ex boom.

Nash still doesn't have a get off me move.

#71
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 2:14 p.m.

Yet one thing that you probably don't want to understand:
The character has fallen both online and offline stats DRASTICALLY.

1. Capcom didn't hold its promise not to nerf the big way before season 2
2. Capcom ignores the stats about the character and didn't add anything that can actually help her game play.
3. Capcom says that they don't want people to change the character that they're having fun with. They want everyone to enjoy the game, yet it doesn't apply to people who main this character somehow as it seems.

Pro's that didn't drop her by now, hoped for some buff for hers. Both official usage and tiers are very down and tournaments are not either on an avarage level for this character. (Including couple of others too)

People are getting told off for asking a fair balance, what's wrong with you, seriously?

#72
Yawdan said on March 19, 2017 at 2:20 p.m.

I don't really buy this talk that when characters get nerfed they are no longer viable. Kazunoko ended SF4 as the best player in the game, and he won Capcom Cup with Yun, whom everyone had dropped as he wasn't as good from his nerfs after AE. and look how Fuudo and NuckleDu perform with Mika now despite her 'nerfs'?

Or are we calling NuckleDu a Guile player now?

Players have been performing good with supposedly low tier and mid tiet characters. So really, it is only players that pick top tier characters because of their inherent strengths, and needing less work to dominate, that would really complain about nerfs.

Results-wise, the only person I respect that has an issue with the nerfs to Chun Li would be Ricki Ortiz. Still, if balance changes aren't too drastic, time will help players actually develop their skill with characters.

But everyone is looking for the quick, easy win.

#73
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 2:24 p.m.

That's the buff that I have to hold the VT till the end of the match then I can use it for defensive options or either extending the last combo to kill. That's the only thing that helps, have to save the VT for the whole match to use it at the end around the situation. Not to mention the ridiculous damage scale that makes her extended combos not worthwhile in middle of the match.

With this game like frame data heavy, you shouldn't forget that 1 frame less dash helps Nash too.

I'm not here to compare who's actually better around the low tiers, while all of them need buffs.

EH writers also need to interview with a Nash player for the discussion, what else he should have gotten and improve his game play.

Lastly, I'm not here to diss any character, what I am dissing is this unfair balance changes (good or bad) in some characters while most of the cast quite balanced.

#74
ijuka said on March 19, 2017 at 2:26 p.m.

The reason I liked Chun Li is because she could play a ground-based game with L Kikokens and poking behind it. It was very methodical and footsie-ish and you could s LK anti air on reaction very well if you got the distance right.

To me it's completely nonsensical how they keep nerfing all the good anti airs and then are "surprised" that the game's turned into a complete yolo jump fest. It's like footsie-based characters who want to stay grounded aren't allowed at all. The funny thing is that Capcom talked as if they wanted to make SFV into a footsie-based game but then their decision choices and balance changes completely go against it. They clearly want the game to be about brainless yolo jumpins.

#75
Zephyrus said on March 19, 2017 at 2:28 p.m.

I read your entire point. Here let me quote it:
"BTW Nash players don't have excuses either, they need to adapt as well..."

The rest is unimportant because both Chun and Nash got nerfed.

And you're right. I'm nowhere near the level of Bonchan's Nash. He plays him perfectly and he still doesn't win sh*t. So imagine how bad it gets for players like me?

Work on my neutral? My neutral was nerfed. Every single tool I used in my neutral got nerfed and still remains nerfed.

Nash ended being too strong on defense... LOL. A character with no reversals and who needed to be hit to get a move to stop other's pressure was too strong on defense. LOL

And NO!!!! He did not get his buffs back. His "buffs" are still a nerf when compared to the season 1 version of those moves. M Sonic scythe got more pushback (no way to know if it's the same as s1) but is more negative on block than it was in s1.

His dash is still 1 frame slower than it was. EX SCYTHE still has no invincibility other than grabs (they reverted that)

And you want to know why I whine about him? Because nobody else does despite whinning about characters that are clearly better than him.

Grow a f*cking brain you degenerate. He doesn't need to be reverted back to the beta days but he either needs a better walkspeed or an invincible scythe. In a highly punishing game like SFV, a character that lacks defensive tools will always be behind others. So you either make his offense very oppressive or you give him a reversal. He got neither.

#76
HyperViperNZ said on March 19, 2017 at 2:29 p.m.

Never thought Chun was a threat. Mind you, I never really came across any since she was quite difficult to use effectively.
I've always hated fighting Necalli and Guile the most.

#77
Yawdan said on March 19, 2017 at 2:30 p.m.

- didn't Daigo win the first two SF4 Evos with Ryu?

#78
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 2:32 p.m.

At least some of the players made some nerfed characters work.
So far none of the chun players have been able to make her work to the viable degree. Mov got trashed FR, Nuki at topanga, go1 relative better than all of them at the moment but not stable, Ricky at the last tournament. Says a lot about the state of this character.

Official online stats also give clues.
We only want a fair balance here, not a win button.

#79
ijuka said on March 19, 2017 at 2:34 p.m.

Indeed, I don't play characters because they're OP, in fact I usually look for some less used characters because I don't enjoy mirror matchups.

The issue with Chun for me isn't that she's low tier though, it's that she's not fun to play as. It's really not cool watching a guy go right through your leg when you try to s LK anti air them and then you eat 350 damage(When the s LK anti air would only get 40 damage anyway because you could no longer cross under due to the changes).

#80
Montsegur said on March 19, 2017 at 2:46 p.m.

I seriously hope they take the buff the low tier approach next time and just leave the top tiers as is. I think an untouched Chun would of been fine vs the new Rog, Laura, Urien, Guile, etc. No, instead they just did random things, lowered Ryu, Alex, Fang, Vega, buffed others, it just seemed to random.

#81
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 2:50 p.m.

Yes, she lost all the joy.

#82
Yawdan said on March 19, 2017 at 2:54 p.m.

I don't care for online stats lol. I do care about tournament stats though.

But you might have slightly musunderstood my point. or are selectively arguing some of my comments. I used Kazunoko as an example of a player whose character got nerfed. But was still able to overcome the nerfs through consistent dedication i.e time. Topanga and FR were only recent. It was nearly a year before NuckleDu started winning. So we can't always necessarily expect instant success.

Point was- nerfs don't mean a character is no longer viable. It just means you may have to work harder.

Unless it's F.A.N.G. Or Alex. They have no chance.

#83
Gellus said on March 19, 2017 at 3:05 p.m.

Dude, this doesn't work, what works is behaving like Ryu players and crying like little girls and constantly telling everyone how bad your character is

Or being like FANG players that somehow managed to convince other people to do their work for them

That's how it works now, who complains the most get the changes

#84
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 3:08 p.m.

You're following the news a bit behind, Alex got better with the last upcoming patch and fangs is slightly better than he was season 1 (xian says on twitter) even Daigo thinks now that Ryu has a chance.

Chun got nothing.
Unless you don't own capcom, you shouldn't care. If you own capcom, the online stats should tell you something about it to make the game enjoyable for everyone especially if you're saying "we don't want anyone drop the characters that they enjoy"

People don't enjoy playing chun anymore.

It's not because she's not top tier anymore, it's because she's lack of tools to make it work. And the game is becoming bore when you feel the match-ups are unfair, because her offence is crippled heavily by capcom.

When you don't have offence options, how will you get your defence Ina game that doesn't appreciate being defensive?

#85
dlmaniac said on March 19, 2017 at 3:09 p.m.

Yun got buffed in USF4. Capcom made it easy for Yun to get in on opponents. You can still find the official Yun video online as proof. Kazunoko won with a top-tier Yun. It's not like he's using someone like THawk to take CapcomCup.

#86
skyrimer said on March 19, 2017 at 3:13 p.m.

What? her combos are easier now, seriously? IAKs is slower so you need perfect timing for one of the combos that was already among the hardest in s1 or cr.lk will come late, mk lightning kicks into cr.lk, lk lightning kicks is hard as hell, and you now need negative edge st.lp for her IAKs and other combos to do any decent damage since her range was nerfed for cr.lp and that's a really difficult combo.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, she has A LOT harder execution in S2 but she gets much less in exchange with her damage nerf and worse tools.

My two cents is that I 100% agree with Lud, she's terrible right now. I was hoping for at least more vtrigger length since she could recover some of the lost damage with her new tools on vtrigger, but currently it's a joke to use vtrigger other than to extend a combo since it's gone before you can do anything with it, basically your opponent can backdash a few times and you lost it.

#87
DarthJazza said on March 19, 2017 at 3:13 p.m.

Yeah, Chun was strong maybe even the strongest in Season 1 but when you compare S1 Chun to the new patch of top tiers Urien, Balrog, Laura, and Guile it's kind of infuriating just how much they butchered her in December.
Now I and I'm guessing a lot of other Chun fans were happy to hear that Capcom was going to do another patch based on data from the preseason to correct some things but seeing the new patch notes and how little nerfs the main 4 got makes me salty about how overboard they went on Chun. I'd like to point out that I didn't want the main 4 to be destroyed in this patch as that's no fun for genuine fans of the characters.
Capcom promised that they'd focus more on buffing the weaker characters over nerfing the strong ones and they seem to have kept to that unless the characters names are Chun-Li, Ryu and Nash.

#88
KnyghtFall said on March 19, 2017 at 3:29 p.m.

-_-

Holy crap....when a diehard character loyalist like Ludovic drops Chun from main status, there's a huge problem.

Ricki? Done.

Go1? Nah fam. I play Guile now.

Wth.....

I don't understand why Gief got new attacks, Cammy gets an air throw, and all Rog got was a health reduction but they crushed Chun and put Nash on crutches?

Why?

#89
boca said on March 19, 2017 at 3:34 p.m.

IMO balance patch was suppose to do little tweaks, change properties of very few things. Season 2 was almost a redo, we had to relearn lot's of things, we saw great characters become weaklings.

#90
ChunLiActionFigure said on March 19, 2017 at 3:59 p.m.

This news of my demise is premature and greatly exaggerated.
I've still got it baby!!!

#91
Crodacus said on March 19, 2017 at 4:11 p.m.

R u troll, baby?

#92
Yawdan said on March 19, 2017 at 4:21 p.m.

Again, when did I describe characters as good or bad? I described characters as "nerfed", or "viable". Alex got buffed. Cool. But are you saying he's viable enough to win a tournament now?

I'm going to cut this short. I was just saying, a character being nerfed doesn't mean they are no longer viable. I wasn't saying they are still enjoyable. But I disagreed with the points (of others, not yours) that they are no longer good.

#93
unseenpotential01 said on March 19, 2017 at 4:23 p.m.

Play chun sir and get back to me at the end of the season...

#94
Yawdan said on March 19, 2017 at 4:39 p.m.

... I explicitly used AE as the point of comparison for Yun's balance adjustment. Even with his balance adjustments in Ultra, he was still nowhere near what he was in AE.

To make my point more straightforward, I used Mika in my post. She got nerfed. But Fuudo is still just as dominant now. As is NuckleDu switching between her and Guile. So using a reductionist fallacy to argue the multiple points in my post still doesn't change the reality that nerfs may not necessarily reduce a characters viability in the long term.

#95
cigdem said on March 19, 2017 at 4:46 p.m.

Pal, you, of course, don't know or haven't acknowledged or not aware (I'm giving you the benefit of doubt) of the degree how badly this game was balanced in terms of a few top tiers.
And yes, Alex has a great damage potential and he's got so much better can absolutely be worked out for tournaments. which is perfectly fine for me personally.
The degree of the nerfs to some others character feels so unfair for a a few cast of the game and chun (not buffed) is one of them.
This is becoming a bit boring now, cos I feel I am repeating myself like parrot which I don't enjoy if you really don't know about the recent game changes.

#96
heartattack said on March 19, 2017 at 4:54 p.m.

How long do you think so?

#97
NOOB99 said on March 19, 2017 at 5:12 p.m.

Honestly if Capcom just gave Chun her Season 1 Kikoken startup hitbox/recovery frames she'd be a more viable poking character without destroying the entire cast. There's almost no reason to use her non ex-fireball at midrange vs one of her normals unless you want to risk losing a cr*p load of damage.

#98
Abbadon36 said on March 19, 2017 at 5:14 p.m.

I want to have fun with this game but currently it's really hard to.
I see Guile and or Rog and I almost just drop the control.
I read the Risk/reward stuff in the patch notes.
I hope that isn't just filler

#99
Yawdan said on March 19, 2017 at 5:26 p.m.

... You weren't even responding to my actual comments. So yes, it' s fine if we end it there.

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