Combofiend: Surprisingly, the community's tier list matches our own pretty closely - Capcom sheds light on their perception of character ranking

Posted by Steven 'Dreamking23' Chavez • December 27, 2016 at 8:18 a.m. PST

Fighting game tiers are a widely debated topic throughout the community. Though there are endless differing views, much of the time there's a general consensus that tells which characters in any given game are among the best.

We recently caught up with Capcom to find out how they see the tiers internally for Street Fighter 5, and learn of the differences in perception between their rankings and the community's.

Street Fighter 5 Associate Producer Peter "Combofiend" Rosas provided us with some insight.

"Community tier lists are interesting in that they constantly change depending on how a player performs with [each character]," Rosas started. "One week Nash is the best, the next week he’s the worst!"

The emphasis placed between tiers seems to be the most apparent difference between the two views. Combofiend goes on to explain that the gap between good and bad is larger in the eyes of the community.

"Those who are in the 'A' category are considered so much more superior than those in the 'B' category [to the community]. Whereas for us, those in the 'A' category may have more apparent strengths than those in the 'B' category, but are still extremely close in terms of tiers and viability with one another," Combofiend told us.

Despite the disparateness, it seems that Capcom's idea of which characters are the best in Street Fighter 5 and the community's are, for the most part, in line with each other.

"As for whether the community’s list matches our own, surprisingly, they’re pretty close," Combofiend concluded.

Comments

darth48076 said on December 27, 2016 at 8:21 a.m.

"As for whether the community’s list matches our own, surprisingly, they’re pretty close," Combofiend concluded.

And if you know this then why in the blue hell would you nerf Alex/FANG but BUFF Cammy/Urien? Capcom.... U's Stupid.

#1
BlankaBeast said on December 27, 2016 at 8:22 a.m.

Lol yea the worst the week after the patch.

#2
EnglishKidChin said on December 27, 2016 at 8:25 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#3
RazieI said on December 27, 2016 at 8:27 a.m.

I'm waiting for that day, when Alex and Fang players will perform so well that one of these will be in top 10.

#4
BumbleBee said on December 27, 2016 at 8:30 a.m.

It already happened. That's why they nerfed both. #NoFunAllowed

#5
Heta said on December 27, 2016 at 8:35 a.m.

Naturally.

#6
Honeyman said on December 27, 2016 at 8:39 a.m.


Well he does have a move that resembles a salmon swimming across the screen.

I don't care what Gouki's story mode suggests either. Gen will always be the wily old assassin and underdog if any SF title he's in. Hopefully that means come season 3 he makes an appearance (at least I hope so).

#7
oscuro said on December 27, 2016 at 8:39 a.m.

I think the balance patch for S2 actually unbalanced the game more and made some bad matchups even worse. Its also nice to know my main ryu got wrecked and I have to find a new character. All his normal buttons needed to be made slower and worse?

#8
Kibotsu said on December 27, 2016 at 8:39 a.m.

So does Capcom have these teirs and look at them with a satisfactory nod? I don't get what he's trying to say, they're content with characters being butt and others being leagues ahead?

#9
Xykes said on December 27, 2016 at 8:40 a.m.

It already happened last year when people thought they sucked.

It could happen again this year...even though people think they suck.

It's all in the hands of those special players who don't cry and moan during the first week of a patch...or get easily swayed by the tide of public opinion. It's all in the hands of those character loyalists who really try to FIGURE OUT these characters, and stick with them through thick and thin.

They're the ones who alway surprise us like Xian, Jon Takeuchi, and Itazan did in S1.

#10
oscuro said on December 27, 2016 at 8:45 a.m.

When more people get good and start using urien he is going to destroy people. The buffs he got on top of the good damage off the reflector setups? He is top tier now for sure.

#11
Chalchium said on December 27, 2016 at 8:46 a.m.

So, it is now confirmed officially that Zangief must be ass-tier? lol

#12
xShonuffx said on December 27, 2016 at 8:48 a.m.

Capcom after comparing tier list to Street Fighter V Season 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdeSv...

#13
EnglishKidChin said on December 27, 2016 at 8:50 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#14
EnglishKidChin said on December 27, 2016 at 8:51 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#15
vII_BATMAN_IIv said on December 27, 2016 at 8:53 a.m.

Combofiend: Surprisingly, the community's tier list matches our own pretty closely

Also read as:

"LOL yea F.A.N.G is pretty sh*t isn't he? Watch what we do to Birdie next!"

#16
xShonuffx said on December 27, 2016 at 8:53 a.m.

Listen bro, there are characters that are low in the tier list that are not as good but good enough to be a contender and there are characters t hat are so low they don't even flow with the meta. FANG struggled a lot already in matches. His frame traps and pressure is all he had going for them, now they took it away.

I didn't complain for a whole season and played FANG faithfully hoping maybe Capcom would reward those that stuck it out.

But instead they nerf him more.

So basically I have to work even harder while other characters hardly have to break a sweat. I don't approve nor do I agree with this balance mentality.It was clear from the start of development that the would not nerf low tier characters. Heck they even nerfed a lot of honestly strong characters that are good but not great.

But we'll see if Capcom is right or everyone at the events will tell Capcom a big fat I TOLD YOU SO.

#17
Lets_Get_It_Mat said on December 27, 2016 at 8:57 a.m.

*off topic*

Event hubs staff!. Mememesub is Daigo's account for Guile. He 's kicking all kinds of a**.

Get on it!.

#18
EnglishKidChin said on December 27, 2016 at 9:07 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#19
BuddhaRahl said on December 27, 2016 at 9:08 a.m.

I've watched LPN stream a few times since s2 dropped, and he says Alex is way better so I don't understand all the complaining on here.

#20
That_guy_who_plays_DOA said on December 27, 2016 at 9:11 a.m.

Lmao, yo. Sees Zangief in D tier, nerfs damage. I see you Combofiend.

#21
DJ_wHonda_ft_DJ_Slaps_MTL said on December 27, 2016 at 9:19 a.m.

Bison was sux in season 1 and now he still sux AGAIN the only good improvement is the christmas song in the game thx capcom and I bought the christmas stage and it not working!!!

#22
Ivan200X said on December 27, 2016 at 9:30 a.m.

My hopes are that their tier lists look something like this...

1. Everyone
2. Dan

#23
Gailim said on December 27, 2016 at 9:35 a.m.

this raises a few questions...

chiefly, why does Capcom have an internal tier list? should't their goal have been to to make the characters equally balanced? obviously that is impossible but they should have tried to come as close as they could. the existence of an internal tier list suggests that Capcom knows that certain characters are inferior. if they have identified that then why not give them something extra to compete?

#24
DontJump said on December 27, 2016 at 9:36 a.m.

I still think everyone is weong about Alex.

I dont feel hes nerfed. Hes better.

his anti airs are better, csn co bo from a low now, has an overhead, better fhp crush counter and follow up combos, pokes are still solid.

I dobt get why people think he sucks. Hes definitely better.

Im sorry, you all mustve played him gimmicky and random as all hell and did random stomps and elbows all match and not played footsies.

#sf5 #randommovefighter5

#25
oArnello said on December 27, 2016 at 9:52 a.m.

Well, guess some characters where already pre-fu__ed.

Such a shame, we just gotta make due with what we have.

#26
HawtBawls said on December 27, 2016 at 9:58 a.m.

Lol why does Capcom even have a tier list? If they are really balancing things then there really should be no tier list.

Jesus, this guy... Every time he opens his mouth... !!!

#27
solzan2000 said on December 27, 2016 at 10:01 a.m.

The reason why is because those people dont play Alex and just look at notes and assume he is worse without looking at the buffs or dont know what the buffs mean then downplay it. The nerfs he got dont affect him as they are poke moves which still do their job, he also got buffs, vskill meter build, slash being faster and being able to combo from crlp, FHP into MP which is really good, headbutt recovery faster, stomp hitbox being better...yea hes actually better not worse lol. Put it this way, I would take S2 Alex over S1 Alex any day of the week and if you went with S1 Alex you are crazy as hell lol.

#28
StarBuster said on December 27, 2016 at 10:02 a.m.

I'm supposed to be playing Alex but this one developer keeps nerfing his ass

#29
panzninja said on December 27, 2016 at 10:06 a.m.

"one week Nash is the best, the next he's the worst"

That happened at the season 1 to 2 transition that's it. Fang has always been garbage and chun has always been godly.

#30
Sighhh said on December 27, 2016 at 10:08 a.m.

FANG needs to stay down in the depths we already have enough gimmicks here

#31
HawtBawls said on December 27, 2016 at 10:15 a.m.

Meh I stopped playing altogether after S2 even though my main supposedly got buffs I can't tell. What I can tell is the whole experience is slower and some other characters get big bonuses for simply being selected. Typical Capcom balancing. Keep hoping something changes heh.

We need Barack Obama designing SF! CHANGE 2017!

#32
solzan2000 said on December 27, 2016 at 10:19 a.m.

Also forgot to mention his CRHP being 10 frames now, and being a really good anti air now.

#33
mUpKnrush said on December 27, 2016 at 10:27 a.m.

Fang is strong now imo. The system changes benefit him. No reversals + everyone having lower dmg to match closer to his + more grey life dmg(him abusing plus on block moves) feels strong

#34
xShonuffx said on December 27, 2016 at 10:31 a.m.

Maybe im being a bit unfair. I did catch a nasty virus during the release of Season 2 so I didn't have A LOT of time spend on FANG so a lot of it was just initial impressions. Perhaps I just need to spend more time but from the first initial impressions I hated it. Im forced to play honest in a game where everyone doesn't play honest. I gotta find a use for his V-Trigger buff, if you want to call it a buff.

#35
OG said on December 27, 2016 at 10:39 a.m.

FANG is just stupid character design. Get over it.

#36
Unknown_Unknown said on December 27, 2016 at 10:58 a.m.

LPN, Snake Eyes, Arturo and Combofiend said Alex was good in season 1 and yet he didn't make a dent in the pro tour.

#37
Exos8806 said on December 27, 2016 at 11:08 a.m.

What do you mean? there's always going to be a tier list for any FG
Do you understand how tier lists work?

#38
Exos8806 said on December 27, 2016 at 11:11 a.m.

Can't identify his own mains buffs but can feel the 1or 2 frames of added recovery on wiffd normals
Okay....

#39
HawtBawls said on December 27, 2016 at 11:12 a.m.

Of course. What I was saying is - the President should not come out and say some people are more privileged than others even though we all know that it is true. Especially because in some shape or form he has a hand in that situation.

#40
Unknown_Unknown said on December 27, 2016 at 11:17 a.m.

His cr.hp did get better but it only hits from the front. If someone jumps right on top of you, you can't do sh!t.

He could always combo from a low. Cr lk, cr.lp, st.lp into chop always and still does work. Being able to cancel chop from cr.lp is an artificial buff.

He's always had an overhead....

His normals are definitely sh!t. My pokes get beat a lot more often than in season1.

They buffed his headbutt and stomp, his gimmicky moves. So it seems in irony they want Alex to be played gimmicky. Both of those can be jumped and hit out of which makes no sense. The stomp should have priority over normals.

#41
HawtBawls said on December 27, 2016 at 11:31 a.m.

Actually I can but it doesn't matter as the added frames to many other moves makes up for the + he gets on frames now.

Keep trying though.

#42
theDiReW0lf said on December 27, 2016 at 11:31 a.m.

The tier lists might as well just be a list of pro players. When Infiltration was unstoppable, Nash was top tier. Nuckledu wins a few majors now Guile is top tier.

Looking at it now.. can someone explain how the hell Alex is above Ken? They don't even belong on the same page.

#43
fawaz said on December 27, 2016 at 11:39 a.m.

Classic Combofiend. >_>

#44
DontJump said on December 27, 2016 at 11:40 a.m.

You forgot to add that his FHP is godlike now and extends meter build, damage, and crush counter damage and easier to hit confirm now to stmp because it works on block for a cmd throw or another stmp frame trap or works on hit to combo to lp chop or ex chop.

All grapplers are gimmicky. Thats their design. lol.

Its unsafe offense based on guessing.

#45
mUpKnrush said on December 27, 2016 at 11:41 a.m.

Alex simply got buffed by the actual system changes. They grey life his fierce does in block is great now. Plus characters not having reversals without meter means Alex now has true 50/50s against the entire cast making him much scarier

#46
Dacapn said on December 27, 2016 at 11:42 a.m.

Pretty much this. Same with zangief. The people saying Gief is worse either don't play him, or played him gimmicky. Sure spds lost some damage, but that's because he actually has other ways to deal damage now. Zangief got got buffed in almost every way I could have asked for. He's really good now. And yes they gray life change hurts his v skill but again, S1 Gief had to use his v skill so much so he could get spds which again was his most reliable source of damage. Now that he has other ways to deal damage, you don't have to play as risky using v skill so much.

#47
solzan2000 said on December 27, 2016 at 11:43 a.m.

If someone jumps on top of you njlp works also lk kneesmash.

Crlp into chop is actually very good, so many times have caught peeps with crlp and now I can combo it. slash being faster is also great and a good poke tool, so no its not an artificial buff imo.

Nah his pokes are still good, just that you cannot do it at any space and get away with it, I still aint getting punished for using them right.

Yup buffed headbutt and stomp is buffed which is great but I agree with you about peeps jumping out and normals hitting it which is dumb, I wanted the ex version of stomp to hit peeps that try to jump out of it and ex stomp and ex headbutt to autotrack. (the other day I exstomp a bison player and his crlp beat it which was complete bs)

#48
mUpKnrush said on December 27, 2016 at 11:48 a.m.

V trigger buff is kindof meh. His specials got buffed though. He also does seemingly well against Akuma imo. Fang also beats urien due to uriens large hit box and how fangs projectiles work plus how slippery he is having options to escape aegis mix-up. I hardly feel he is honest though, when fang locks you down when you have meter he can just abuse you with plus on block moves while doing crazy grey life and building meter before setting up some sort of ambiguous command dash setup... Where when he guessed the wrong side can still maintain pressure. His 2 hitting AA also bodies divekicks. I don't think he's a top tier character maybe mid or upper low, but he definately can be cheap and incredibly frustrating to play against. But he does have some obvious shortcomings.

#49
SofYen said on December 27, 2016 at 11:56 a.m.

Cammy buffed???! She had been nerfed damn hard. If u mained her u would know...

#50
Snipeclips said on December 27, 2016 at 12:08 p.m.

"should't their goal have been to to make the characters equally balanced?"

That is what Combofiend said they did. It reflects on his point where it is not as disparate as what others made it out to be. And I presumed that earlier into the game's release many thought that also, so I wonder what has changed.

#51
Dperiod said on December 27, 2016 at 12:16 p.m.

I never understood the concept of buffing and nerfing, one would think that if a character is doing well that would mean that he is good enough to not buff or nerf. Why couldn't they just just buff the weaker ones and leave the ones that were solid alone. Dunno, but this s2 patch is interesting to say the least; and truth be told I really wish I could understand their thought process on these matters more.

#52
moodkip said on December 27, 2016 at 12:31 p.m.

Balancing is not a character process, it is a roster process. It sounds great on paper to buff weak characters and leave everything else, but in practice you have to think of the interactions that the entire cast had to said buffs. Also, they have to try and predict the flow of the meta to make sure certain things are good enough while also not overpowering it. It's an extremely delicate balance and, unless you've ever had to do it, it's hard to grasp why it feels like they miss the mark.

#53
Zephyrus said on December 27, 2016 at 12:33 p.m.

most people here don't know sh*t about the characters tools or weaknesses.

They just read some random tweet or watch someone win and roll with it as gospel.

Just watch all the people claiming Birdie and Alex got nerfed. *shrug*

#54
darth48076 said on December 27, 2016 at 12:39 p.m.

Exactly. I main him to, since 3S and then people told me he was ass but I kept on playing him. Then V comes out and Im like, "redemption!" nope! Capcom still gave him the finger. Went to Evo this year. did 3-2 in pools with him, felt he was still missing something. Fast forward 6 mos later, S2 patch comes out and you nerf him!?!?! Bruh. Look at the people that main him. Kubo dropped him. RB dropped him for Urien. Only people that are still playing him is Problem X and LPN. I think its a pride thing for them, however I know they wont stick with him longer. People asking me if Im sticking to him. No. Ive been playing nothing but Akuma these past 6 days. I did try Alex out last night for the first time and the rage compelled me to stop.

#55
Zephyrus said on December 27, 2016 at 12:39 p.m.

lol no they didn't. They buffed his damage, mixups, frame traps and pressure.

All this crying because cr mp and mk are one frame slower and st hk is 2 frames slower?

What about everything else he got?

#56
Zephyrus said on December 27, 2016 at 12:41 p.m.

Dark, an Alex player, won a cpt event. Just throwing that out there.

#57
Jonay said on December 27, 2016 at 12:44 p.m.

The whole experience is not slower. Some moves are slower, some are faster. There seems to be a belief out there among the SF5 haters that Capcom turned some magic dial to make everything 5% slower. They did not. There are dozens of S2 comparison videos demonstrating that it's the same overall speed.

#58
DarkKirby said on December 27, 2016 at 12:48 p.m.

Combofiend: "Surprisingly, the community's tier list matches our own pretty closely."

NERFS FANG. BUFFS CAMMY.

Kappa

#59
Unknown_Unknown said on December 27, 2016 at 12:51 p.m.

Lk. Kneesmash, huh? I'll have to test that out. Seems like you would have to predict the jump in for that to connect.

#60
Unknown_Unknown said on December 27, 2016 at 12:56 p.m.

Really? Which one? Did he exclusively use Alex?

#61
Captainbuttocks said on December 27, 2016 at 1:16 p.m.

There will always be tiers as no game is ever equally balanced

#62
Books said on December 27, 2016 at 1:25 p.m.

Play against a good Cammy and you'll see why Alex is helpless and hopeless on defense. His offense isn't good enough, especially in this game, to account for his terrible D. If you have slow buttons, iffy anti airs(and yeah, Cr. HP is better, but it's still too slow to compete with great AAs), no invincible reversal(with or without meter) and no other escape, (e.g. Nash's VT/VR escape in S1), then you are out of luck.

If EX headbutt was invincible getting off the ground, or if EX elbow had frame 1 super armor, Alex would be completely different. As it is, he is always a knockdown away from victim status. Alex is facing a lot of problems that a lot of "not so bad" characters faced in SF4AE2012. He just doesn't have the tools to play defense long enough to get back in the game. He's got a puncher's chance if he never gets knocked down and most characters in this game have much more than that.

#63
Kroaken said on December 27, 2016 at 1:34 p.m.

Very much this.

And of course they can contend. C tier can fight A tier. The issue is that given equal skill, as is assumed with a tier list, you mathematically will just win more often the higher in a list you use.

That said, I use gief because I love gief. Good or bad.

#64
Gailim said on December 27, 2016 at 2:05 p.m.

you didn't read my point

#65
solzan2000 said on December 27, 2016 at 2:18 p.m.

You know what, I just forget another buff that he got that is really good, out of the air to air jump in his jmp(which got a hitbox buff) is really good, so njlp, nj or jmp which is my fav air to air close up and lk kneesmash which yes that one is more or less a read.

#66
ReMeDyIII said on December 27, 2016 at 2:51 p.m.

Yea, uhh huh, sure, that's why they gave Urien a cross-up and didn't really buff F.A.N.G. at all.

#67
spectral_delusion said on December 27, 2016 at 2:56 p.m.

Yeah, Cammy didn't get buffed, but I wouldn't say she was nerfed that bad either. I main her and she feels virtually the same. C.Spike is the only major nerf, and really C.Spike outside of anti-air situations was always a risky chance to take.

#68
mushdog said on December 27, 2016 at 3:07 p.m.

Well, for record, they actually buffed his gimmicky moves, and nerfed his neutral game. Try using lk. slash now; it's sooooo ridiculously slow and punishable. Not to mention, his c.mp and mk are just about as slow now as many characters heavy buttons. Got to be super careful, or CC.

His combo game is definitely better. Sure. Stomp and headbutt are more reliable. But it's much harder to get in now than it was. He does really good damage, and they buffed his oki after ex chop, but many things about him got worse (his oki after ex knee, for ex). He's also pretty much free now to cross-ups. He's now the only grappler without a 5 frame command grab.

#69
Firemadeprime said on December 27, 2016 at 3:25 p.m.

He said close not identical.

#70
mushdog said on December 27, 2016 at 3:31 p.m.

I'm just going to leave this here for reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkTO5...

1:44 mark. Elbow loses.

#71
Zephyrus said on December 27, 2016 at 3:40 p.m.

he exclusively used Alex, yes.

#72
StarBuster said on December 27, 2016 at 3:56 p.m.

Yeah, people who want Alex with good crouching mediums and elbows are soooooo crazy, stomps and headbutts are waaaay more important

#73
solzan2000 said on December 27, 2016 at 4:10 p.m.

They are still good pokes, also he didnt just get headbutt and stomp buffs, I dont think you read the notes properly or are ignoring the other buffs, either way am done lol.

#74
Books said on December 27, 2016 at 5:15 p.m.

Alex is bottom 5 at best, bottom 3 at worst.

#75
UltraBronzeMaster said on December 27, 2016 at 5:48 p.m.

As a Ryu Player, after trying out Guile for a couple days, I have to say this: Guile just works. It felt so much easier to win matches, even with the most basic strategies. Also, the Flashkick has insane range. It is so much better than DP for Anti-Air.

#76
FlyByKnight said on December 27, 2016 at 6:04 p.m.

Why would Capcom have a tier list? Isn't the goal to balan... never mind. Capcom.

#77
Franko said on December 27, 2016 at 6:25 p.m.

So who cares about tiers list , if the game still have the same input lag capcom better fix this cause this game is slowly dying, shame

#78
ForTheViolence said on December 27, 2016 at 7:34 p.m.

The fact that Capcom even has a tier list is hilarious, it just shows that they are aware characters have huge problems and really don't do as much as they can to fix them. If you look at the eventhubs tier list you will see many season 1 characters still stuck in the same low tier placement. It just makes me think that they pick and choose who they want to be strong and who they want to be weak.

#79
Aleksan said on December 27, 2016 at 9:55 p.m.

Uhm there was no sudden change in tiers for Nash. The change had to do with a balance patch. The input delay reduction, instantly cut any nash off from performing(a good thing.)

#80
dark_capp said on December 27, 2016 at 10:29 p.m.

Keep thinking like that while SpawnOfOdd, Gunfight and Takuyasugi continue to wipe the floor with diamond players using their Alex.

#81
sukurin said on December 27, 2016 at 10:42 p.m.

#MakeRyuGreatAgain

#82
sukurin said on December 27, 2016 at 10:51 p.m.

As you mention it, I'm a little confuse about Gouki's story mode.
Why he kill Gen when he fights him but not kill Ryu when he fights him?
Can someone tell me about this??

#83
TaokakaBOOM said on December 28, 2016 at 1:17 a.m.

You'll be hard-pressed to find any opposition to your statement.

#84
powerman365 said on December 28, 2016 at 3:11 a.m.

dont say that about Birdie it hurts us birdie mains you know cuz it's kinda true

#85


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