Loki too abstract? Vision too powerful? Niitsuma explains why characters didn't make it in MvC3, including Black Widow, The Hood, Kingpin and more

Posted by Nicholas 'MajinTenshinhan' Taylor • December 25, 2016 at 10:31 a.m. PST

Since the reveal of Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite, Ryota Niitsuma, the producer of the game's predecessor Marvel vs. Capcom 3 has taken to Twitter to reminisce about development times for that title, even though he's confirmed to have no involvement in the new game.

In one series of tweets recently, he briefly outlined some Marvel characters that were considered and why they did or didn't make the cut for the game's roster. I took the time to translate his tweets to give you guys some interesting insight in one of the FGC's favorite babies. Below, you can see his reasoning for why M.O.D.O.K. and Phoenix did end up in the game.

M.O.D.O.K.: His visual impact was huge for us. He also provided a lot of freedom in fighting style.

Phoenix: She's highly popular and very famous. We thought of the Dark Phoenix angle right at the start, for her.

Continue further below to hear the reasoning for why a bunch of characters didn't make the cut.

Black Widow: She felt like she'd be too similar to our other gun/weapon based fighters.

The Hood: Same as above.

Miss Marvel: It was difficult to make her stick out next to her competing candidates like She-Hulk and Storm.

Kingpin: We really spent a lot of time deciding between him and M.O.D.O.K., but ended up going the other way simply because he seemed like he'd be more fun.

Mystique: Having a character who's main gimmick is changing their appearance is difficult in a fighting game.

Loki: "His speciality is to deceive his opponent's through magical illusions". Uhh, I dunno, for a fighting game... ?

The Vision: His abilities are just way too powerful, haha.

Source: Ryota Niitsuma's Twitter.

Comments

Neoxon said on December 25, 2016 at 10:35 a.m.

Keep in mind, Carol Danvers was Ms. Marvel at the time of (U)MvC3. Obviously she's Captain Marvel now, with the Ms. Marvel name now belonging to a Pakistani-American Inhuman named Kamala Khan.

That being said, I'd be shocked if Black Widow & Loki don't show up in MvCI. Vision is also likely, but I wouldn't say he's as safe of a bet as the other two. I could also see Kingpin getting in due to his popularity on the MCU-Netflix Daredevil show, but he's probably nowhere near as likely as the other 3.

#1
HyperViperNZ said on December 25, 2016 at 10:36 a.m.

Obviously The Vision excuse can be easily worked around. You have people like Frank West going up against Dark Phoenix. Lore wise, power levels and abilities don't mean jack in fighting games really if you balance it properly...

Looking forward to Infinite!

#2
bagel_bytez said on December 25, 2016 at 10:39 a.m.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

#3
NyuBomber said on December 25, 2016 at 10:42 a.m.

Vision's abilities are too powerful, but you put in existential threat-level heavyweights like Shuma and Phoenix, not to mention Doctors Strange and Doom...?

By the same token, seriously can't think of the possibilities for Loki's illusions in a fighter? Come on, man.

Others:

MODOK - Yes

Black Widow - Agree

Mystique: Would probably take some techncial wizardry to truly work well, otherwise she'd just get a bunch of pasted moves. Maybe she could be like Double (Skullgirls) and copy appearances while using different/cut moves from other characters.

Kingpin - Probably would've been a Juggernaut proxy

Hood - Would rather have Nightcrawler...

Ms. (Captain) Marvel - Well this doesn't bode well for Storm or She-Hulk in MvCI (less so for She-Hulk)

#4
Neoxon said on December 25, 2016 at 10:44 a.m.

It's not like we're gonna get Storm in the base roster, anyway (same applies to Mystique).....if at all.

#5
EnglishKidChin said on December 25, 2016 at 10:47 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#6
MetroidG said on December 25, 2016 at 10:57 a.m.

I basically agree with what you said.

#7
Kavey said on December 25, 2016 at 10:58 a.m.

I think he meant Vision's abilities are too powerful in terms of game mechanics to balance, as in basically Nova with the ability to control opponent's movements telepathically and having a barrier ability etc etc.

Hard to represent faithfully and balance I think is what he meant.

It's still BS but still...

#8
Rambro said on December 25, 2016 at 11:05 a.m.

A character from Red Earth is well overdue for a spot in a capcom cross over game if you ask me

#9
iMTopTier said on December 25, 2016 at 11:11 a.m.

Mystique would be difficult to put in a fighting game?
Shang Tsung could do that for years.....come on

#10
AriesWarlock said on December 25, 2016 at 11:12 a.m.

DAMN! I would have liked a Miss Marvel. Sadly, now we've got captain marvel.

#11
theshredder39 said on December 25, 2016 at 11:13 a.m.

Not sure if I agree with these.

Black Widow would've had guns and other firearms sure but she'd be way more mobile with them than somwone like Chris and I mean yeah there's Jill but even she only uses guns for a hyper combo.

Loki could've been a trap based character that's about setups.

Ms. Marvel could've played like Rogue did in MVC2 with a few differences.

Vision could've been a Magneto/Nova hyrid

The argument for Kingpin is the only one I'll give a pass for, I like Kingpin but I also love my weird fightig game move sets and MODOK absolutely fit that better than Kingpin.

#12
XxAngelChunLixX said on December 25, 2016 at 11:14 a.m.

Doesn't look too good for people that want Loki. That's my exact reaction when he's brought up too, lmao.

I love that they decided on Phoenix from the start. She was definitely a shock for me when I first read it. Normal Phoenix was a blast to use too. But too bad she was flimsy as hell.

Kingpin? ........they made the right decision.

Leads me to M.O.D.O.K.. His reason is my favorite by far. Which is surprising because I wasn't hyped for him at all and wasn't disappointed either, just confused more than anything. He's too damn unique and out there for me to have been disappointed. I hope they take that approach with more characters, as long as they don't lead to boring, "angry and mean just to be angry and mean" characters.

#13
jadeguy said on December 25, 2016 at 11:16 a.m.

I have a theory. Like UMVC3, each character will have a "rival".

Captain America-Ryu (both have mentored other characters, , both are among each company's most popular characters. Ryu is one of Capcom's most popular characters and is a part of Street Fighter, one of the most successful fighting game series, while America is one of Marvel's most popular superheroes and part of the Avengers, one of Marvel's most successful properties.)

Iron Man-Mega Man X (Obviously, both use robotic weaponary and both have the term "Man" in their name.)

Captain Marvel-Morrigan (This one is a little tricky. The only similarities i can think of is both can fly, absorb energy, and have younger "versions" of themselves.)

If Loki, Black Widow, and Vision do get added, here are their possble "rivals"

Vision's rival might be Zero
Black Widow's rival might be Chun-Li
Loki....Idk

#14
Neoxon said on December 25, 2016 at 11:20 a.m.

That depends on what you mean by Ms. Marvel.

- If you mean Kamala Khan, she has a pretty good chance of getting in.

- If you mean Carol Danvers' old hero name, she's still in the game either way, just with her most recent hero name. And besides, her old black costume is likely to be an alternate costume, anyway.

#15
Ivan200X said on December 25, 2016 at 11:21 a.m.

I don't think you can leave out Superman just because he's more powerful that's the joker. I think the same applies. Don't leave characters out for such logical reasons. Just give the people the characters they want. Sometimes don't overthink it.

#16
jadeguy said on December 25, 2016 at 11:23 a.m.

Wtf!? Loki can do more than just "magical illusions".

#17
OnegaiShimasu said on December 25, 2016 at 11:26 a.m.

Yeeeah, with sprites you'd see the possibilities. But we're not in that age anymore. Models are lot more difficult to work with when it comes to that.

Which is why Shang Tsung doesn't even change to all the characters like he did in MK9, only to the one he was fighting.

#18
vinirangel said on December 25, 2016 at 11:30 a.m.

Loki's rival will be Thor, obviously :D

#19
bornonamonday said on December 25, 2016 at 11:40 a.m.


Other fighters have used illusion based characters though, so Loki could work. Hibiki in Blazblue and Zatanna in Injustice are recent examples.

Martian Manhunter is a good template for Vision's style.

The easiest way to differentiate gun characters is weaponry, combat style and movement. Making Black Widow an acrobatic, gun kata using gunslinger while Frank could focus on mixing CQC with weaponry instead of just zoning.

Kingpin is way more than a brawler. The man has extensive training in several styles and could have easily been a beast. Heres a few examples. https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthrea...

#20
KristineR said on December 25, 2016 at 11:46 a.m.

all i heard was basically it would have been too hard to be creative to create these characters and moves sets appropriate for them. So we took easy characters we can give the standard copy, paste move sets to.

#21
MKK_hanzo said on December 25, 2016 at 11:47 a.m.

"The Vision: His abilities are just way too powerful, haha.
"

Yeah, let's have Doormammu instead.

#22
theshredder39 said on December 25, 2016 at 11:59 a.m.

I think lack of research on the Marvel characters is more the reason.

Cause there are very unique and creative move sets in UMVC3 like MODOK, Phoenix Wright, Frank West, Arthur, Nova, Super Skrull, Iron Fist, ect.

So there was definitely creativity happening, they just didn't put in the extra research.

#23
MajinTenshinhan said on December 25, 2016 at 12:02 p.m.

IMO they probably just didn't do much research before their decisions (just basic stuff), and then once the roster was solidified, they went in hard on research and crafted some really amazing movesets and references for the entire cast.

#24
Allercon said on December 25, 2016 at 12:07 p.m.

Vision too powerful...but Phoenix who is an omega isn't...? Not understanding the logic there :/ they could have just nerfed his damage.

#25
mario3d said on December 25, 2016 at 12:09 p.m.

Bleh pitiful arguments he prefer Modok
Vision is too powerful but about Phoenix Shuma etc.
I hope Infinit keep out crap chars like West, Wright, Arthur and Modok.

#26
bornonamonday said on December 25, 2016 at 12:45 p.m.


Frank was actually fun in TvC, wouldn't mind that version.

#27
Blackoshinomi said on December 25, 2016 at 1:15 p.m.

Dormammu Dr strange & Phoenix are all more powerful than vision and there in the game

#28
Smorgasboard said on December 25, 2016 at 1:21 p.m.

There is a character in Mvc3 that fights with illusions but unlike Loki's, her's can do physical damage.

Loki is just not a fighter anymore than Professor X.

The vision excuse is weak but Vision isnt popular enough anyway.

And black widow is already in mvc3. She goes by the name Jill for some reason though.

#29
Ice9 said on December 25, 2016 at 1:27 p.m.

(M.O.D.O.K.) Second Backpedal. Initially Niitsuma's statement on this was that Shuma was too difficult to animate in 3d... and that turned out to be a lie when it was later stated that Shuma was one of the first characters that they worked on, which then made his DLC placement questionable.

(Phoenix) uncontestable.

(Black Widow) Blatant Lie. Back During TvC, Frank West was shoved in at the expense of Jill or any other RE char. The statement BEFORE frank west was that "zombies would look too out-of-place" with TVC's artstyle, which was an utter lie since Frank Flat-out has Zombie-summoning. Then in MvC3 (not ultimate) people were so pissed at seeing frank's silhouette that Capcom had a 'pause moment' and baccked off on him...yest still founbd a way to butcher Classic MvC2 Jill's moveset just to be sure Frank could Zombie Summon uniquely.

Point being that if frank had never been forced into the franchise, Jill's MvC3 Moveset would have most likely been Black Widow's.

(The Hood) Uncontestable.

(Miss Marvel) Uncontestable, but She-Hulk had zero redeeming gameplay mechanics that helped her stand out as a unique force with any further function than filling a slot. Rogue was a better choice at the time if only because of the gameplay function that "power drain" has.

(Kingpin)

(Mystique) Impossible to contest. Spiral Already happened and convincing shapeshifting gimmicks in 3d is difficult to do. Similarly (and more devastating) is the fact that this works massively against Demitri as the sole reason he never gets in is because of his "Midnight Bliss" special 'transforming' the other character. There's not only marvel licencing issues to contend with, but the move in itself absolutely bloats the amount of weight his inclusion carries, making him a development hassle from the start as just having him requires every character in the game to have a unique animation and seperate model exclusively for his use.

(Loki) Maybe this would be an excuse in a world where ninjas and/or Samurai Shodown didn't exist. https://youtu.be/PxPs3MD6mTE?t=50s Deception is regularly a required tradecraft in ninjitsu. Discounting Loki on "Illusions" is laughable.

(Vision) Thanos. Dormammu. Shuma-Gorath. No, it's not that Vision is too strong. You just lack the imagination. It's actually impressive that Nova got in over Vision with how much less impressive "D*ck Rider" is in comparison.

If a capcom Rep is going to tell a lie, they shouold do it behind closed doors and never to the press that will publish it online for the internet to remember.

#30
Ice9 said on December 25, 2016 at 1:41 p.m.

(Kingpin)- Honestly, you could have had Kingpin vs Haggar, which would have been great considering the context, but at the time, nobody was really thinking about kingpin until after netflix's daredevil.

Niitsuma's full of it on this and it's guaranteed that it never entered his mind. Modok was a lazy way to toss in whatever they wanted on a character and Taskmaster simply was to cheat in a bunch of unrelated character moves (mostly hawkeye considering the bow/arrow) which was far less creative or sensible than Super-Skrull, especially considering how Super-Skrull makes lots of sense as he is a villain that takes up one slot that otherwise would have been 4 heroes taking up 4 slots....and the villain itself is literally an antagonist of those 4 heroes in particular with their combined powersets.

Taskmaster should have simply been hawkeye from the outset and Taskmaster could have been literally anybody else and the game been better off for it.

#31
ArkticDark said on December 25, 2016 at 3:23 p.m.

Way too powerful my ass... they have Dormammu and Phoenix!

#32
Spades said on December 25, 2016 at 3:27 p.m.

"Mystique - Having a character who's main gimmick is changing their appearance is difficult in a fighting game."

Shang Tsung from Mortal Kombat 2 (1993) says otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NldNi...

#33
HyperViperNZ said on December 25, 2016 at 4:04 p.m.

Excuse and lie fest 2016

#34
theshredder39 said on December 25, 2016 at 4:11 p.m.

This right here is exactly why I'm very interested to see how a modern MVC is done without Nitsuma cause, while I do enjoy playing UMVC3, Nitsuma hasn't been careful about his words about it at all even back then.

Now the new game is supposedly going to have a big story mode and a number of modes, which is pretty much exactly what we were told about MVC3 before it came out so now we see if this new guy can deliver where Nitsuma could not.

#35
XDIEX said on December 25, 2016 at 4:41 p.m.

Capcom are such idiots haha some of their reasons make no sense. They really are stupid when it comes to decision making.

#36
RLAAMJR said on December 25, 2016 at 5:30 p.m.

Ms Marvel now Captain Marvel took the movesets of Phoenix this time so SheHulk and Storm still has a chance to be in the game.

I agree with BW. We already have chris redfield, jill valentine, dante, deadpool and some more who uses guns so it's sad to know bw didnt make it, if they will not include Jill, then Black Widow will be in the game.

As for Vision, i believe they just couldnt think of how his intangibility would work in the game so he didnt make it.

As for Loki, it's also hard to think of how he'll fit into the game.

#37
trufenix said on December 25, 2016 at 5:47 p.m.

the moral of the story? never tell your fans anything about the development process.

#38
bornonamonday said on December 25, 2016 at 6:17 p.m.


I could see him being similar to most illusion type characters we've seen before or a spellcaster type like Nine. Or even imitate attacks from other characters like Double though illusion. Add godly strength to that and you got Loki.

#39
metaf4 said on December 25, 2016 at 9:45 p.m.

Well it's pretty hard to have Vision in the game if you're including INFINITY STONES into the game...

How's Vision supposed to fight if you use the Mind Gem on HIM?!

#40
TH_AKB said on December 26, 2016 at 12:55 a.m.

ofcourse he wont be in the game with the stones in it lol, research bro research. Thou u was an expert in them comics

#41
xShonuffx said on December 26, 2016 at 9:31 a.m.

Remember when Niitsuma said it would be hard to incorporate Mega man X moves in Marvel and is why they picked Zero?

Well....

#42
ultrapowerlevel said on December 26, 2016 at 11:51 a.m.

How is Miss Marvel similar to Storm and She-Hulk? (Facepalm)

#43
DeathCom said on December 29, 2016 at 12:47 a.m.

No disrespect, but it's obvious that Mr. Niitsuma does not know the source material very well nor does he seem to have a good understanding of the popularity of these characters overseas. Developers should be far more creative than this suggests.

Black Widow - Sure she would have guns, but she would also have a lot of trap type gadgets and perhaps a stealth dash/teleport.

Ms Marvel - Couldn't see how to make her different? She could have been a counter based character. Moves that absorb impacts to increase her damage output. Sadly Im not even seeing this in MVCI, hopefully her actual powers are represented beyond photon blasts (this also means Sentinel/Hulk sized health bar). (also for the record, I don't think anyone means Kamala Khan when they say Ms Marvel... even today) Anyway, we gotta start requesting her Ms Marvel (Warbird) costume now if it's gonna be in the game. Disney/Marvel hates the Warbird costume, gonna be an uphill battle here.

Kingpin / MODOK - Both of these guys were terrible ideas. I do have to agree, MODOK was at least more out there.

Mystique - Granted, this is tough in 3D. But its been done in other fighters... (though she can't mimic powers)

Loki - Again, many options here with illusions in a fight. They should have known better.

The Vision - Dark Phoenix made the cut, his argument is invalid.

#44
ayurai said on January 8, 2017 at 10:56 p.m.

• Loki: "His speciality is to deceive his opponent's through magical illusions". Uhh, I dunno, for a fighting game... ?

Its a joke right? Cause... we have the ****ING PHOENIX WRIGHT IN THE GAME!!!!!
... PHOENIX ****ING WRIGHT, A ****ING LAWYER, IF HE CAN FIT IN A FIGHTING GAME, WHY THE **** A ****ING POWERFUL GOD DONT?

#45


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