Dieminion: If Guile stays the same as the latest build of Ultra Street Fighter 4 I'll pick a new main, he's currently weaker than any other version

Posted by Jonathan 'Catalyst' Grey • May 5, 2014 at 11:29 p.m. PDT

Kevin "EMP|Dieminion" Landon is regarded as the best Guile player on the planet in Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition v2012, but if the latest build of USF4 holds up, he plans on finding a new main.

Dieminion felt that the latest build of Guile in USF4, the one at Stunfest 2014, was actually the weakest version of the character, he told EventHubs, and elaborated on his statements via his Twitter account this evening.

Landon said that the health reduction, combined with his already low stun and counter-hit on Sonic Boom makes him too weak defensively.

To see the complete rundown, hit the jump.

Dieminion: Played Guile in Ultra today. 950 life from 1000, and can no longer auto-correct Ultra 1 like in the arcade currently.

The awkward thing is that he turns around as if it was auto-correcting, and then the opponent lands behind anyway....

Ryu Apprentice: Yay! So Gen Guile match-up return to 7-3 in Guile favor phew. Auto-correct ultra 1 is a bit too good for 5 frame ultra.

Dieminion: Yeah, but they removed the auto-correct and didn't give back the damage in return, only made it 5 frames.

Ryu Apprentice‏: Wow, that's bad, was hoping they buff it to 490 or there about. Guile is hard to play but delayed wake up will help a little.

Dieminion: If Guile stays the same as the latest build of USF4 for the console release, I'll be playing a new main character competitively.

I feel that the health changes, combined with low stun, plus the counter-hit on Sonic Boom, makes him too weak defensively.

Guile's main tool is now a risk every time you use it. He has the same life as many female characters with better tools than him.

I've been practicing many characters recently, but I'm not too sure who I will play next. Maybe I should make a poll & let the fans decide ;)

I just don't understand the reason of the nerfs. It's a weaker version of SSF4 AE v2012 Guile. I thought the point was to make characters better.

Well there will be plenty of time to figure out a new character to play. I don't mind not winning a few competitions for a little while.

TKD has just recently rated Guile in the Arcade as B+, so imagine with the newest build nerfs in effect.

Quotes from Kevin "Dieminion" Landon's Twitter account, additional tweets from Ryu Apprentice. Image of Dieminion from Karaface.


AugustAPC said on May 5, 2014 at 11:34 p.m.

That's like super depressing. Dieminion's Guile is amazing to watch.

I don't understand the 950 health nerf, either. He's supposed to be a tank.

Edit: Also lol @ the banner. Dieminion looking disappointed at an ashamed Guile.

nosloandy said on May 5, 2014 at 11:39 p.m.

Why would nerfing guile even cross anyone's mind anyway? It's not like the character goes on a rampage with anyone who picks him up.

noacosmic said on May 5, 2014 at 11:41 p.m.

Capcom are so random! Why are they making changes and then backtracking!? Forget changing a main, I'll play another game if that's the case. What a bunch of morons!

Biohuzzah said on May 5, 2014 at 11:41 p.m.

Guile's character design is very tricky to balance it seems. Can't give a pure defense character too much, otherwise no one can get in on him. But if you don't make him strong enough, characters end up steam rolling over him.

wayofBushinRyu said on May 5, 2014 at 11:47 p.m.

Because there are scrubs that cry about not being able to jump-in on him. That you can no longer exploit his hurtbox on wake-up anymore. Basically, the people that cried about his buffs were mad because they want a free match-up vs. Guile. Now it seems that they got it.

sarif2soon said on May 5, 2014 at 11:49 p.m.

"Soldier, I am disappoint."

SadisticSamurai said on May 5, 2014 at 11:51 p.m.

Can't stop laughing at that pic.

Dieminion also mentioned that he was impressed with DeeJay in the USF4 build, I'd love to see more high level players using DeeJay in Ultra.

Xykes said on May 5, 2014 at 11:52 p.m.

Like Dhalsim.

Balancing a massive, diverse cast like this is not as easy as the armchair game designers like to think.

Svuag said on May 5, 2014 at 11:53 p.m.

SF4 : New Main Edition.

In the end most people will stick with their "old" mains

IMainDanHibiki said on May 5, 2014 at 11:58 p.m.

Honestly, I feel that Guile in AE 2012 is just fine. He's got good defensive tools, he's got good offensive tools. A good Guile will shut down most people really quickly unless they're a pure rushdown character like Yun or something like that.

Honestly, buffing Guile at this point would probably be overkill; I think the only change he should have would be the U1 change and that's it.

But that's just my opinion, I'm sure that others will disagree.

PowerBeard said on May 5, 2014 at 11:58 p.m.

These latest changes make it seem like Super Nerf Fighter IV: Cock Tease edition. "Here's some decent changes, lol jk actually nerfs"

Biohuzzah said on May 5, 2014 at 11:59 p.m.

Agreed. Dhalsim is also one of those characters. I also believe that grapplers fall under the same type of problem as well. It's very hard to balance a fighting game (or any game) with this many characters in it. The slightest tweak can make or break a character across a dozen or more matchups. I personally would love to see Guile be able to air throw after an FADC flash kick. That would look stylish.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at midnight

Who you mean... http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/ap...

spotlesseden said on May 6, 2014 at 12:01 a.m.

just pick another character, you can;t always hope that they make your character good.

pip said on May 6, 2014 at 12:01 a.m.

I fully agree with Dieminion.I really wonder what Capcom is thinking by nerfing characters that they initially wanted to buff. It's simply preposterous.

KamfPudding said on May 6, 2014 at 12:05 a.m.

Autocorrect U1 was fine.
They just should have tweaked the animation on start up so that he looks in the right direction..

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 12:13 a.m.

The point everyone is trying to understand is why a complete 180 on Guile? What is the reason? He's not dominant in tournaments. He hasn't won Evo. He doesn't dominate in Japan... so why buff him and then at the last build completely destroy him. Even TKD said he is B+ but they nerf him? While Fei-Long and Cammy who are S+ remain S+?

Yung said on May 6, 2014 at 12:14 a.m.

"I just don't understand the reason of the nerfs. [...] I thought the point was to make characters better."


Sadisticcupid said on May 6, 2014 at 12:20 a.m.

yeah but that doesn't mean they have to destroy the character in the process. It's one thing to nerf aspects but now guile is literally free to viper and anyone else who can slip in easily from a sonic boom. He literally is dead.

wayofBushinRyu said on May 6, 2014 at 12:21 a.m.

I mean anyone that has ever complained about him being "OP" when he's clearly not.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 12:22 a.m.

Thank you. The best could have done was just leave him alone at ver. 2012 and that would have been just fine. They destroyed the character. They went backwards.... and honestly. I want to know WHY?

Xykes said on May 6, 2014 at 12:25 a.m.

Umm, no the purpose is to make a final, definitive version of SF4 that can last forever, since this will probably be the last update.

You've seen what Marvel has degenerated into. And, it's not getting updated.

They want to be very careful here. Cut them some slack.

JohnnyOcelot said on May 6, 2014 at 12:28 a.m.

Guile is so hard to play already doesn't do any damage with his combos why are you gonna screw the greatest american fighting game character like this?

c_wong428 said on May 6, 2014 at 12:28 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

Warbeast said on May 6, 2014 at 12:29 a.m.


EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 12:30 a.m.

EXACTLY! Of all the characters to nerf, they lower his health, lower his stun, so 2 combo's he's dead. Take away the auto correct (That "EVERY SINGLE" character in the game has accept him) then don't even give him the damage to it if you skillfully land it. So even if you do it right manually, you're not even rewarded. That ultra is completely useless now. He can't protect him self with his main weapon sonic boom, they lowered the damage output on it, meter growth is slow, if he get's counter hit on Sonic Boom he loses 150. What is he suppose to do now? Rush down? He's not a rush down Character. He's a NEUTRAL CHARACTER WITH NO NEUTRAL GAME! Sonic Boom, Yoga fierce, Dhalsim is not in the lead on the trade. Guile keeps doing it, Dhalsim wins purely on trade, by simply pressing 1 button. WHY CAPCOM! What is the REASON on this HUGE NERF? Life, STUN, COUNTER HIT and AUTO CORRECT? WHY?

ZTS said on May 6, 2014 at 12:33 a.m.

It's Capcom Guys, why are you surprised? They love to jump the gun. They don't have the balls to let the changes they worked on for over a year stand in the arcade release and see how it pans out. Just get ready cause when the console release happens who knows who'll be good anymore.

DaveE said on May 6, 2014 at 12:34 a.m.

I would say the new improved Guy. Dieminion has used him as a pocket character in the past. The USF4 version Guy appears to have moved way up in class...rated A+ on latest tier list posted on EH (take w/grain of salt of course).

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 12:34 a.m.

But they were doing good and then they completely butchered a staple character of the series. The question is why?

Ok, want to punish him on counter hit Sonic boom, leave his life at 1000. Even

Want to take away Auto Correct Ultra, leave damage at 490. Even

Want to punish him for letter people in after he has great normal's lower stun. Even.

That's balancing the character. Instead they just took EVERYTHING away. How is that balancing the character. How was that hard to see that their butchering the character. That's no excuse. None.

deBeast said on May 6, 2014 at 12:35 a.m.

Sad news. I love Guile and Dieminion

PoePoe said on May 6, 2014 at 12:42 a.m.

Its all about Dat Influence bro.

Justin and Eduardo are good friends with Peter, im sure he took their feedback into consideration. I cant really see any other reason for the massive nerfs, Guile was not/ and has never been OP.

Sadisticcupid said on May 6, 2014 at 12:42 a.m.

Booboo, all i can think of is combofiend doesn't like his job and wants to get fired. That's the only reason i can think of cause i'm literally scratching my head at some of these nerfs/buffs.

nusense said on May 6, 2014 at 12:44 a.m.

So japan arcade build not final? Is it getting updated contently?

BlackGuile said on May 6, 2014 at 12:45 a.m.

People will be bothered one way or another, believe in your boy combo.

Worst case scenario you will see greater character variety with talented players making us love their new mains.

JIHADJOE said on May 6, 2014 at 12:49 a.m.

AFAIK that's because of 2f tatsu, but Capcom seems to have taken back that buff.

PoePoe said on May 6, 2014 at 12:49 a.m.

No, Current Japan Arcade is basically a Beta Test. Its no where close to being Final

MN7 said on May 6, 2014 at 12:49 a.m.

Buffs and nerfs aside, it's sad to very seldom see character loyalty. Yeah Dieminion is sponsored and obviously must perform well or else his sponsorship will be withdrawn, hence he will look for a character with less risk; but it would be a nice example to stick with a character that they've always mained regardless of his buffs and nerfs. Learn to adapt. Every character received buffs and nerfs and seeing top players just learning the new matchups would be an example of perseverance and more merit, than picking another character.

wayofBushinRyu said on May 6, 2014 at 12:50 a.m.

I play against, IMO, a top Guile player regularly so I know how to deal with him. He's unknown because he has life obligations.

Sage_Liebert said on May 6, 2014 at 12:52 a.m.

Ok, so what can they do to legitimately buff guile? was his problem even solved with auto-C U1? I don't think so.

PwnageJuIcE said on May 6, 2014 at 12:56 a.m.

Mind you if this article was about a seth main saying seth is unplayable( which has happened already), everyone would be bashing. But for dieminion and guile "oh noes poor guile" -_-.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 12:57 a.m.

I'M HOPING COMBOFIEND SEES THIS AND BRING JUSTICE TO THIS! This is clearly wrong. There is no way to explain this other than just plain WRONG. I'm not a top player... I DON'T EVEN PLAY FIGHTING GAMES and I know how terrible that is. There is no WAY COMBOFIEND let that happen. This went over him. TRUST ME ON THAT! PETER IS A OG and knows that is too much. Someone made the call over him and I want to know why. NAME a EVO Guile Won? How many majors does guile win a year in AMERICA ALONE (only the 2 or 3 Dieminion wins out of like 25). How many international tournaments does Guile Win? Name any other top GUILE Player at Dieminion's level? NuckleDU.... oh but he has not beaten Dieminion ever... in 2 years. (no offense Du, just making a point). So with all of that, who does this HURT? DIEMINION! WHY? That is my QUESTION. WHY? What made them say... this is too much for him, let's take this that that that and that. What is the reasoning behind it.

THTB said on May 6, 2014 at 12:58 a.m.

I don't understand these nerfs. Like, at all. The only nerf that made some sense was removing the auto-correct. I'm not hating on it, but it looked so hack-jobbish in the way it was executed. I wouldn't be surprised if it would've ended up causing some serious issues, too. But c'mon...at least give the damage back lol.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 1:03 a.m.

Dieminion is not sponsored. EMP is not a sponsorship. We're just a gaming team. eSports. We look for sponsorship for the team as a whole and spread through all the players. Like any other team. If a team pays salary, that is salary not a sponsorship. I'm just putting you on to the difference because this FGC can't get it right. They think anyone with a acronym is sponsored and that's not the case.

Example: Mew2King is on "TEAM" EMP, but when he plays you see, "CT" in his name as well. "CT" is clashtournaments and that is a stream and has it's own independent team. CT is the sponsor.

Like EG: Justin Wong is on "TEAM" EG, but when he wears his gear, it has a whole bunch of other sponsors on it, mainly "Razer" RZR. Although Razer has its own eSports team, they also sponsor other players on other teams to help push their brand products and or services.

I hope everyone else reads this so they finally get it. I'm tired of these 2010'ers and young guys getting it wrong. As for his performance, I really don't care about that, its the PRINCIPLE of it.

Shinebox said on May 6, 2014 at 1:03 a.m.

There is still one build of the game left to be tested in EU and NA. The question is will the final build be the Japanese arcade version?

This build seems very experimental as there was no change log posted on it. It was all player observation.

So far the Japanese version is the only one that has a change log and official videos with demonstrations on the character changes.

Ascender said on May 6, 2014 at 1:04 a.m.

All guile honestly needs is the tweaking of his U1 and tweaking his flash kicks to be slightly safer. That's all guile needs. When it comes to normals his normals are all amazing and very useful.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 1:06 a.m.

They should fix Seth, even I think that what they are doing to Glass man is OVER DOING IT and that's wrong too but guess what, I'm not on the testing team so I can only vouch for what my players play. The Counter hit on sonic boom, we accepted. The Auto correct was whatever. They take it away or not whatever just give the damage back so Dieminion and other Guile players in the world who land it manually or auto correct earn something.

But 950 life? Low Stun? ..... really?

CaptainPlanet said on May 6, 2014 at 1:12 a.m.

I have to disagree. From all the footage I've seen, I'd say ACE is the best Guile player.

Trex said on May 6, 2014 at 1:16 a.m.

Guilde's design is lame by default, if you fail to see this something is wrong.
On the other hand I rarely see him win tournaments, so he isn't that strong either.

In a way his pure and raw lameness is holding him back bc making him stronger would raise frustration so much; so I guess Capcom can't make him top tier. Hard to balance indeed.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 1:22 a.m.

It's not hard to balance. How about this since apparently intelligence is lacking in their R&D. LEAVE THE CHARACTER ALONE. How about that for a BALANCE! I'm sure every GUILE PLAYER IN THE WORLD WILL BE HAPPY. EVEN THE BEST GUILE PLAYER ON THE PLANET "ACE".

nusense said on May 6, 2014 at 1:32 a.m.

Great way to courage Knuckle Du(not on his level)....Quite a team captain! If Di3minon can't pick up a new charactor. IT"S A WRAP, TIME TO PACK IT UP. Hope, he has other skills besides playing fighting games and baking.

Syirine said on May 6, 2014 at 1:34 a.m.

Oh god, best player for EMP is down for the count. Everyone panic!

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 1:40 a.m.

Don't try to make it more than what it is. Du, is a great Guile player but Dieminion is better. He lacks the patience and experience. We don't sugar coat in EMP. We keep it real with each other so we can learn and become better. We're trying to do that with NuckleDu. oh and another thing, it's NUCKLEDU....stop putting a K in his name.

Dieminion is one of our top players not the only one. Sanford is another. Let's just hope, RANDOMLY Sagat and Oni get's destroyed too. The rest of our other top players are all on another team.... its like a cloned Empire Arcadia, just with money and clout and minus the blacklisting.

Smorgasboard said on May 6, 2014 at 1:41 a.m.

Guile has won so many tournaments compared to a character like Bison.

saltydp said on May 6, 2014 at 1:46 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

nusense said on May 6, 2014 at 1:48 a.m.

Maybe you should step back and be behind the scene(stop posting on boards\twitter\obs). But that's never going to happen.You like to be in the forefront and in the lime light. Heck, emp old logo is you in the forefront of the logo.

No team owner acts the way you do, no wonder emp is blacklisted.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 1:48 a.m.

We don't have any best players in EMP. Just champions that step up to the plate when needed. Before it was Justin and when the clone Empire team got him, another champion rose from the ranks. Despite us supposedly dying. Sadly, the clone team is asking NuckleDu to Leave EMP... just as they're trying to convince a lot of members to leave and they think I don't know.

Oh....and your next statement will be, we'll if you treated them better and sponsor them and send them to tournaments maybe you wouldn't have to worry about other teams trying to steal them. Well I would agree with your point, if we were a sponsorship, but we're not and never claimed to be. It's you new guys who think ever player with a acronym in their name means they're sponsored.

You see long before this whole "Sponsorship" thing was cool, back in 2002 when we first arrived in the FGC from the classic/retro community, the FGC use to laugh when the players wore EMP shirts back in 2003 and repped the team. The same guys that now run teams and are all of a sudden 'eSports' crapped on what were doing, yet now they're doing it. We started as just a team with a mission to bring competitive gaming to the mainstream. That is all we've ever been. Guys like you try to put a responsibility on us that we never claim, so you can justify that we did something wrong.

Every player that enters EMP is told that we don't sponsor players and they join and when they miss 1 or 2 tournaments they complain and say that the team is a fraud and they leave, join another team, get used for a year or two and then whole teams get dumped and die off. AGE, DMG, eLivePro, WW, WMD, LB, BLG, FYC, DM and more.... all gone, yet EMP is still here.

oh for a little education here: http://youtu.be/C-kVn8vcLgw

Now back to the Guile topic.

KamfPudding said on May 6, 2014 at 1:55 a.m.

Bring justice?
Ok, now you're trying to hard ^^

Just wait until release. I'm sure they will have another look over Guile.

And I don't think Capcom has any interest to hurt Dieminion..

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 1:55 a.m.

I'm a gamer, that's how I started and that is how it will end. Although I manage, this is me. No system dictates my action. I do. I do me, you do whatever your told or how systems run you. It's easy to speak about something you are not familiar with, especially when your talking to the most unpopular person associated with the FGC. I will say this is good taste, you have no idea why I do what I do. You think think this is me being in the forefront? I'm here saying what my players can't say because of the consequence. I can say it though because nothing happens to me for it.

Oh... but your counter argument would be but what if what I say hurts my players then? There are two things wrong with that counter argument. A. Nothing I'm saying is rude, crude, disparaging or disrespectful to anyone or just in general. I have a concern, I'm voicing it and asking questions. B. The fact that their could be a invisible consequence to any of my players for speaking my mind on a clear concern, is telling about this community and what people allow to go down. It is this very principle why I stand up for my members while others suck up to fit in.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 1:58 a.m.

Never said they did, I said it hurts Dieminion. Don't put words in my mouth. Also don't take "Justice" to literal because then you're trying to hard to make me appear to voice my concerns for more than what it is. The whole purpose of me stating anything here is in hopes for them to make corrections to this or at the very worst, just leave Guile alone with no changes.

Ugly_Joe_Camel said on May 6, 2014 at 1:59 a.m.

This is what happens when people get on message boards and cry about things that they haven't even played. The best elfuerte says guile is B tier, but all the people who haven't played the game think it'll be overpowered.

Words cannot express the stupidity. There are multiple characters that beat guile 7-3, but its not ok for him to have favorable matches? Completely terrible changes.

People need to stop crying and actually try to learn how to play a game, instead of the "my character isn't S tier so I can't win" mentality.

Also, Seth got what he deserved, that character should have been banned since day 1.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 2:01 a.m.

That's another thing don't turn this into the "let's crap on Triforce" thread. Stick to the topic please.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 2:02 a.m.

Marvel character in a SF game? lol.

Nevran said on May 6, 2014 at 2:02 a.m.

If we except the typical Triforce topic, I think Capcom tried some nerf because Guile looked very strong in USFIV.

In the arcade build, where the game has better defense (delayed wake-up, red focus) and where charge character gain stronger dmg with red focus lvl 1, Guile got some strong buff.
His U1 got a better start-up and can auto-correct.
His flashkick FADC U2 does better damage.
His jab got a better hitsun (making cr.mp link easier and making it possible to link his U1)
His hurtbox got reduced on wake-up
His airgrab got a better range
His cr.mk hit further
His command move HK got better at hitting crouching opponent
His flashback gained more invincibility

He just had less dmg on U1 (which isn't bad) and counter-hit on his sonic boom.

Just think about it, in USFIV, Guile was straight up buffed and better.

Now, about the nerf and Dieminion reaction.
First of all, yes, I don't agree with 950 health when he already has a low stun barre which reward offensive sucess on him.
And the fact that U1 doesn't autocorrect is bad.

So honestly, even if I don't really understand the nerf, Dieminion reaction is like PR Balrog when he lost the topanga league or Justin Wong when he discovered Sentinal in vanilla MvsC3, he overreact.
Guile is way stronger in USFIV.

Even if autocorrect U1 was gone, if the health nerf doesn't make it, Guile would be stronger. Even with the sonic boom counter hit. It is just a reward for people suceeding to punish his fireball game when he has now a WAY better wake-up game.

So please, don't say guile got destroyed in USFIV. I don't understand all of this nerf but I clearly understand why capcom is take some time with him.
It is like Chun-li, you need to put the entire picture here.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 2:09 a.m.

Nevran, Guile isn't a S+ character in AE 2012, ok so they buff him in Ultra and now he's GDLK and they want to balance it. Wouldn't it just make sense to simply take away what they gave him that made him too strong? Doesn't it not make sense to take what they gave him and more. Now he's weaker. The opposite spectrum isn't the answer either.

If I have 50 cents and I want to reach around 75 to 80 cent but I put 50 cent more and have a dollar and I say that's too much I don't take away 75 cent to fix the problem.

KamfPudding said on May 6, 2014 at 2:09 a.m.

Just calm down.

Didn't want to offend you in any way.
Keep in mind: People who are overacting will not be taken seriously.

Ugly_Joe_Camel said on May 6, 2014 at 2:10 a.m.

he really is, i'm surprised that he can't combo from throws. I guess starting offense from mashing uppercut was enough.

I respect what you're doing triforce.

2Future4U said on May 6, 2014 at 2:12 a.m.

I'd take all those buffs he got back in Ultra for just a simple change to get back his U2 effectiveness in SSF4 and the damage distribution on juggle in AE2012. It doesn't make sense to nerf him for life AND his U1. IMO he doesn't need an auto correct U1 because of delayed wakeup, he was fine in AE2012 outside being hit with unblockables

nusense said on May 6, 2014 at 2:13 a.m.

A: I've heard you openly trash TO\Players(Valle Party Habits)\madcatz\mcz players on OBS.

B: It does hurt players on emp, when you don't have product sponsorship that has longevity. If you where better at business kdz wouldn't had to do a donation drive to go evo.

Eternal said on May 6, 2014 at 2:13 a.m.

I thought they changed sonic boom counterhit to be on startup? E.G. they removed the 1-20F counterhit state that is in place for USF4 and returned it to EXACTLY HOW IT IS IN AE2012.

As far as I can tell, the only nerfs Guile got (which were legit nerfs)

1000 health reduced to 950 (horrors. Health is one of the worst balance tools in the game. Notice how many top tiers in EVERY fighting game are low health characters with good tools rather than high health characters with average tools? See: Marvel, SF3, SF Alpha, ect ect.)

Ultra 1 damage nerfed from 510 to 450. Startup reduced from 7F to 5F. Admittedly this sucks but it's not that huge. Cody had his U2 nerfed from 506 to 466 and he didn't even get anything decent for it (the change was only how far he moves AFTER the dust. All they did was make it so that there a few less instances of the dust part of his U2 hitting and the wrenches being blockable.)
Sagat lost at least 50 U1 damage as compensation for them fixing a BUG.
Rufus lost 40 damage on his U1 and that is one of his most important moves.

Listen, I respect Dieminion for playing Guile this long and making him work. The character is high mid tier. Not super strong but very solid. But overall Guile in USF4 is the same as AE2012 or a tiny bit better. At the very least the buff to flash kick invincibility and fixing Guile's hurtboxes on wakeup as well as adding DWU greatly help him. EX RF also gives him some solid comeback potential. Upside down kick - clsHP - EX RF - U1 works mid screen and does 550 damage aprox

YorKeY said on May 6, 2014 at 2:14 a.m.

I'm all for the Yun dive kick back to 4 frames from 6 frames but still keeping the height restriction, but i say they should change it back( i'm a Yun player) OR put it to 5 frames instead of 6. That way they accomplish what they said " We are gonna make all characters a threat in Ultra, and not have him being yelled at by cry babies. (even though most people will still complain about Yun) Ultra 2 damage buff or start up a frame quick please combofiend, if you do decide to make the dive kick 6 frames again! But i'm not greedy, if you decide to make it in between at 5 frames, don't give the ultra 2 buff!

Also buff Chun Li, my friend Gibs i sad. :/

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 2:19 a.m.

You know when a person is calm, but then someone says calm down how the person feels? Why do people do that? This is the internet. I'm not mashing on my keyboard typing this to you, you know. lol. I'm just typing. I'm bothered by what happened to the character not upset.

The reality is this. We complain, Capcom decides to or not to do something about it. Whatever happens we react accordingly to it. If they fix it, yay! Justice. If they don't, we grumble, Dieminion picks a new character or just quits the game and goes to Smash.

Everything else that is happening here is simply to make our point on the matter. People are coming in with their suggestions and opinion on the matter and this all adds up as data that Combofiend takes into consideration to send to them and they either consider it or not.

I'm well versed on how this works. I'm just giving it my all for one of my players. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I ride or die for my players. Literately. (if you only knew)

Paradonyx said on May 6, 2014 at 2:20 a.m.

THIS. Frickin' THIS. Especially your last sentence. I agree 100%. If Capcom is gonna take away a character's tools, something needs to be given to compensate. While I agree counterhit on Sonic Boom is fair, 950 health is BS. Now, I'm not sure if its because I main Viper, but offensively, I feel I have little to fear from him, though, corner-wise, idk. Guile isn't even dominating as you stated above. Capcom needs to stop being a tease and get serious. Console release is about a month away and they're pulling THIS? They need to stop listening to the casuals who barely do anything to keep this game afloat, and focus on characters who DESERVE to be buffed.

dennishubs said on May 6, 2014 at 2:22 a.m.

remember when capcom said the aim of the balance patch is to buff and make everyone stronger, and not to nerf anyone. well there has been a lot of nerfs.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 2:22 a.m.

see once again... talking out of ignorance. You have no idea on what happened and who screwed over what. Yet you made that statement. Look, you have your opinion and I have the facts. Especially when this is about my organization, my players and me. So let's just agree to disagree. I'm not here to talk about EMP. This isn't the place for it. This is a Guile thread. So no more, and don't get banned because the next time you bring up something outside of the Guile topic I will have to report you. Let's keep this civil and keep it moving.

Ugly_Joe_Camel said on May 6, 2014 at 2:26 a.m.

Wrong, when you damage guile, its off a sonic boom read many times. And now he takes more damage from that. That in and of itself is a HP nerf, and then on top of that they nerf his HP too. He effectively has 900 HP with those two nerfs, with no damage and low stun. The character isn't going to be beating anyone in that current state.

Look I can overreact too, but seriously, most every character has decent damage capabilities in ultra due to red focus, no reason to nerf something like this

Clamper said on May 6, 2014 at 2:26 a.m.

"Guile major tool is now a risk".

Yes, sonic boom is so risky.

ChristianDMG said on May 6, 2014 at 2:29 a.m.

Crapcom: "We got some new buffs for Guile... lol jk secret nerfs".

nusense said on May 6, 2014 at 2:29 a.m.

LMAO, go ahead report me. I'm done trolling you. I could careless.

PS, don't let EG take away m2k. Since eg is getting into smash. Check chocoblanka\momochi twitter background if you don't believe me.

KamfPudding said on May 6, 2014 at 2:30 a.m.

Writing with big letters feels always like yelling for me :D

I can understand your point and the passion for your mates.

It's good for them having someone in the back supporting them..

Yung said on May 6, 2014 at 2:33 a.m.

So you're saying there is no problem with a game being unbalanced ? You think is fine the final version of Street Fighter being a game where not all the characters have a chance to face the rest of the cast ? Wow.

Q80Warlock said on May 6, 2014 at 2:41 a.m.

We need to understand Capcom's marketing correctly this game is "MADE for CASUALS". Pro players can go play broken tiers and collect their bounty money Capcom doesn't care on balance on the long run just how much they sell.

I still think most players causal or pro over exaggerate buff/nerfs as usual.

BSC_Hadoshrooms said on May 6, 2014 at 2:44 a.m.

Not the final build wait for the console version.

Triforce what do you actually do that is good for the fgc. All that money paid back yet to the people who donated ? I have never seen a Article about something that EMP was good.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 3:07 a.m.

Just go to our youtube page or website. You're not going to find it much on other sites that have to take into consideration the opinions of a community that is inundated to dislike me and then EMP by extension. For instance, this entire thread is about Guile's nerfs. I come on to expand upon it and you and a few other trolls start attacking me. How did it get there? I don't know you. I know for sure you don't know me, just what you hear from other people. I don't get it. I understand you want to be in the cool kids group and want to be accepted its ok.

EventHubs, I'm trying to block some of these trolls but the option is not working. Could you check it out. I need to use that option.

EMP_TriForce_GM said on May 6, 2014 at 3:09 a.m.

I'm glad you know what EG does.

Madenka said on May 6, 2014 at 3:10 a.m.

Ok so clearly this means nothing is set in stone and that Capcom have left manatees with brightly coloured balls in charge of balancing.

xianmsg said on May 6, 2014 at 3:11 a.m.

Changing from 1000 to 950 is quite huge. Similar to eryu buff from 900 to 950

Griever_Lionheart80 said on May 6, 2014 at 3:17 a.m.

I think 950 health is way too big a nerf from 1000 for a defensive character like guile that doesn't have to take risks, he should stay 1000 or 1050, because having amazing normals and sonic boom are very risky in this footsie based game guile wont last.. oh no! BUFF GUILE PLZ! and give Adon his chip damage back while you at it.. lol

jason24cf said on May 6, 2014 at 3:21 a.m.

Yup, this makes no sense. This is why players just want select edition. They will be able to play the strongest version of their character. But I doubt it will stick, it's still a beta test to maybe get it just right.

Eternal said on May 6, 2014 at 3:54 a.m.

1000 to 950 is 5%

Health changes are one of the least effective balancing tools in any game. It does change balance, no question, but it's not a particularly important change.


Think about when you fought Daigo and he intentionally took your crMP - Hands - FADC combos because he knew that he could block your setups. In that instances he is effectively saying that his health is a less valuable resource than your super meter.

Most people consider Vanilla Seth the strongest version of Seth, yet Vanilla seth did less damage AND had 50 less health (a 6.66% difference from current) and 150less stun (a 20% difference)

Vanilla Seth was considered a near unwinnable matchup for Zangief despite the fact that Zangief had 1200 health/stun and could not only stun Seth in 1 combo (HP Headbutt - sMP - HP Greenhand) but if Zangief landed his Ultra Seth would lose 80% of his life and be dead just from a greenhand or lariat.

Changes to tools (such as nerfing his Sonic Boom counterhit state from 1-9F to 1-20F) will almost always have a much larger effect on a character than changing health or raw damage unless the change to health/damage is very drastic (such as Vanilla Sagat to Super Sagat's damage nerfs.)

darko_p86 said on May 6, 2014 at 3:56 a.m.

I hope they change their mind. They claim that any character is a threat in ultra... right. What are they smoking?

NukeRog said on May 6, 2014 at 4:11 a.m.

Dieminion is still forgetting about the fact that Guile got a lot of other buffs and that delayed wakeup benefits him greatly. And he wasn't a bad character in 2012 either.

"180 turn" is perfectly understandable because Guile was obviously overbuffed and while he MAY (still up to discussion) be weaker than his 2012 version if you compare them directly, he is still going to be better in new turtle-based metagame.

etrotman said on May 6, 2014 at 4:14 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

Kumageri said on May 6, 2014 at 4:24 a.m.

I don't know about the other nerfs, but I honestly think that counter hit status on Sonic Boom startup is HORRIBLE for a character like Guile, as was it for DeeJay. They've still got the time to revert this nerf at least.

zeuvs3 said on May 6, 2014 at 4:26 a.m.

i was against the 5 frame ultra auto correct, so i am glad capcom remove the auto correct part:) but give back his health and he is good. remember guys delayed wakeup is gonna make guile really strong. -no more garanty damage on hard knockdown against: cammy, akuma etc. and for those of you who quick rise vs cammy, akuma, sakura: well you will have the same problem in ULTRA^^ :)

Frankiiee said on May 6, 2014 at 4:32 a.m.

so your saying dieminion is not a good guile? pretty sure he knows what hes talking about

TaokakaBOOM said on May 6, 2014 at 4:48 a.m.

Just like with Vega and Chunners, Capcom have buffs to get to players hyped then just take then away. Granted, Chun-Li and Vega got a few new things in the current build. I hate to agree with Triforce but he's absolutely right; what's Guile getting for losing those buffs AND keeping those nerfs? It's ludicrous that they would do this to that character... Dieminion is one of my favorite players, I'd hate to see him drop Guile =(

TaokakaBOOM said on May 6, 2014 at 4:48 a.m.

Gah, that's gave buffs, not have :x

SpiderUppercut said on May 6, 2014 at 4:55 a.m.

"Because there are scrubs that cry about not being able to jump-in"

Well said, my bushin friend, well said.

I want to find retards like this and elbow drop them in the spine They do more harm to our beloved game than good.
Sorry to hear Dieminion. #thestruggle

SirKenjamin said on May 6, 2014 at 5:13 a.m.

Hmmm. Poor guile, the health drop seems a bit much. But hey why stop there, drop his stun and damage output too. Oh oh oh and make his sonic booms into him shooting out little spinning kittens that tickle the opponent till they cramp up. Then just have him leave the air force and have him join the navy where he serves more dock boys than he does his country.

Come on capcom, you took Ken from us because he's "3/4 Japanese" or some dumb ish, don't take Guile from us as well. I say we riot!!

SpiderUppercut said on May 6, 2014 at 5:14 a.m.

Maybe they should look at making Balrog -5 if you block any of those dash or turn punches (and they are FADC -> dash forward)
Including the tweaking of the dash and turn punch hurtboxes so they can be more easily swept on reaction!
Balrog EX dash punches used as a wakeup get out of jail free card should also be made less safe. Also make Rufus less safe on block too.

You know, to encourage more thoughtful and less spammy play.
Especially if the -5 FADC DP changes stay.

Either that or make Edition Select the norm for offline as well as all online modes.

How about it, Capcom?!

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