'We're paid less than minimum wage' for running tournaments, says East Coast Throwdown's SweetJohnnyCage

Posted by Jonathan 'Catalyst' Grey • June 25, 2013 at 8:50 p.m. PDT
'We're paid less than minimum wage' for running tournaments, says East Coast Throwdown's SweetJohnnyCage Offering a very illuminating look at the financial aspect of running a tournament in the fighting game community, John "SweetJohnnyCage" Gallagher recently spoke at length on the subject, saying that when everything is accounted for, he and his team are making less than minimum wage.

Gallagher is an experienced tournament organizer, hosting fighting game competitions since 2006, and running a well trafficked major every year in New Jersey, with the help of L.I. Joe, under the name of East Coast Throwdown.

The amount of money tournament organizers in the FGC are making recently came into question, and Gallagher offered up a lot of information on the subject, giving specific details about their bills, time invested and quite a bit more.

If you've ever wondered what kind of cash tournament organizers have to put out for these events, you should definitely check this out. Hit the jump to read everything.

Being transparent is what we already do. If someone comes up to me and asks how much a ballroom costs, this costs, that costs, I'm very open with them. I'll tell you right now we paid $4,250 just for the space [at East Coast Throwdown] this year, but we also paid $500 for the screen, another $500 for wires/cabling (even at a MASSIVE discount since we're friends with the owner of a cabling company), $1,500 in rooms, the pallets that Mad Catz had delivered we were charged for, $1,000 for a single 10Mb internet connection (which we sneakily split using a 4 port switch that we hid under the stage to save and extra $3,000).

So that's $7,750 right there. JDCR's plane ticket was $1,300 (he won Final Round, the prize was sponsored by The Fall Classic, which we run). $9,000 so far. I'm still paying off the $8,000 I spent in systems & monitors from last year. That's more of an investment that benefits us long term, so I don't exactly count that. Oh, we also pay $500 for an additional power drop in the ballroom to avoid blown fuses like at ECT3. There's other small costs that I'm sure I'm forgetting, which rounds it off to $11,000+ or so. And that's just costs.

Our profit isn't as easy as "Add up the venue fees" as some say. We also spend a few hundred in food and drinks over the weekend for staff. Let's not forget PayPal's near 3-5% on registrations (it's a % on the total transaction, which includes the $10 entry that contributes to the prize, which we then cover ourselves as to not cheat people out of money). Our hosting is about $150 a year with domain service.

Now take all the time we put into the event beforehand. We work our regular jobs, plan ECT during those jobs (I'm just now catching up on backed work from before Final Round), as well as after those jobs at night. Staff meetings, Skype meetings, floor plans, power plans, all that goes on for months before the event. Add up all the hours we put into it, combined with the 60 hours of no-sleep from Friday to Monday morning, and we're paid less than minimum wage at the end of the weekend.

Source: NeoGAF.


Catalyst said on June 25, 2013 at 8:50 p.m.

To interject my own opinion...

I've met many tournament organizers over the years, and I can tell you this experience and setup is not unique. I've yet to meet someone in the FGC who only does tournaments as their main source of income, as everyone I know of off hand has another job they use to support themselves, if not two.

These guys do it cause they love the community.

VileEighty said on June 25, 2013 at 8:54 p.m.

TOs = gdlk

error3 said on June 25, 2013 at 8:56 p.m.

Charge MORE money for tournaments fees! I'm sure people are willing to pay, as the pot will increase.

gigantor21 said on June 25, 2013 at 8:57 p.m.

B-but NeoGAF! D:

Seriously, though, I'm glad to see some hard numbers for a change, as opposed to bitter, nebulous comments about $30k on Twitter/forums.

Clamper said on June 25, 2013 at 8:58 p.m.

And yet some are disrespectful to TO's ...

DevilMaySpy said on June 25, 2013 at 8:58 p.m.

@ Error 3: That would be stupid because the majority of the FGC can barely afford current tournament fees and as a result, a lot of good players don't travel.

chipndip said on June 25, 2013 at 9:02 p.m.

E-Sports money needed.

phoenixkusanagi said on June 25, 2013 at 9:03 p.m.

Wow. Never knew it cost so much. Much respect for the people who sacrifice to put tourneys up year after year. You make getting through days worthwhile.

Quick question: does anyone know how much EVO costs? Exact numbers, if possible.

dennishubs said on June 25, 2013 at 9:18 p.m.

since they're being transparent, how about revealing the amount of revenues they earn from twitch ads, subscriptions, sponsors and entry fees? why talk about the costs only?

Tensa said on June 25, 2013 at 9:21 p.m.

Since most of not all of the TO's have normal jobs I doubt they made much money I think they just love the community an wants it to grow

Batsu said on June 25, 2013 at 9:38 p.m.

Then charge (more) fees, people will understand or just STFU! Damn!

Smorgasboard said on June 25, 2013 at 9:46 p.m.

To be honest, customers don't care about cost to time or money. That's your problem. People only care about their own problems and telling them yours doesn't help them with that.

spotlesseden said on June 25, 2013 at 9:49 p.m.

they can't charge more money for tournament fee. Otherwise, less and less people will go to tournaments.
They need to find corporate sponsors. But then again Fighting game community hate corporate sponsors.

Like CEO, they are getting Microsoft to sponsor them. Then again, FGC are because they don't want Microsoft to make money.

ForTheViolence said on June 25, 2013 at 9:54 p.m.

this is because of jaxel putting big e and other big tournament organizers on blast recently on neogaf. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthrea...

JUSTDRINKOE said on June 25, 2013 at 10:02 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

HooliganComboFTW said on June 25, 2013 at 10:24 p.m.

Needs that Esports money

TRNBardock10 said on June 25, 2013 at 10:28 p.m.

@15 totally agree with you

Est said on June 25, 2013 at 10:32 p.m.

I was unaware that tournament organizers were supposed to make any money at all.

I thought it was purely a love thing.

throughsilence said on June 25, 2013 at 10:53 p.m.

Nice link #14, has a lot of information

roarmonster said on June 25, 2013 at 11:11 p.m.

FGC will become e-sports soon enough. If there is profit to be had, it will be had. Hurry it up e sports

EMP_TriForce_GM said on June 25, 2013 at 11:18 p.m.

Johnny... time to talk to WCG and MLG. #Esports.... It is inevitable.

chipndip said on June 25, 2013 at 11:29 p.m.

If people think like #15 wants them to, what's stopping dudes from just straight up quitting? They do this because they love to do it, but if it gets to the point where they just can't, and they stop, who's gonna stop them? FGC boys bitching? Yea, no. Be more damn appreciative about the hand outs you get for free. One of the major pillars supporting this grass roots "FGC" phenomenon is entirely voluntary, but you're gonna shrug it off as "boo hoo, go whine somewhere else"? Talk about ungrateful.

E-Sports plz? >_>

Madmax77 said on June 25, 2013 at 11:36 p.m.

the Fighting Game community need Producers !
how come a movie star never had the idea to be in charge of such events... just for our fun ! He'll be love by the FGC and his popularity will grow... easy advertising

porchbaboon said on June 25, 2013 at 11:43 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

EMP_TriForce_GM said on June 25, 2013 at 11:54 p.m.

#24 despite their feelings... at the end of the day, Competitive gaming as a whole will be industrialized into esports. Capcom and other fighting game publishers want the competitive scene to survive and the industrialization of the community is the only way to do it. You'll start to see these very same publishers are going to work with the leagues to do just that. The TO's in the community will work something out with them and a organized infrastructure between Community Circuit and Industry League will be forged. People will call the TO's sell outs, although all the TO's are doing is ensuring the future of our community and the culture to it. People will complain, but the harsh reality is they have no power. Like people in standard society, the leaders job is to lead and the people's job is to complain... but follow. It will get better and they will eventually accept it. As I've said then and I will say it again... it is inevitable. The difference is, I keep it real and others do not because they are trying to keep the good graces of the people of the FGC. I don't concern myself too much with what the people of FGC think is best for them. I know what is best for them and so do those who have 10 times more power than I know this as well. Get in line people... #FORWARD

WeEsportsNow said on June 26, 2013 at 12:04 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

RandomDP said on June 26, 2013 at 12:05 a.m.

#25 Dat ego...

DN_RcR10 said on June 26, 2013 at 12:26 a.m.

As A Dutch TO I agree with Johnny. But Also like to point out that there are some events that don't make any profit at all.

TheDeadTexan said on June 26, 2013 at 12:33 a.m.

I didn't even know they got paid. I'd do these things at cost and just run ads on stream to pick up the slack, but that's just me.

misdaa said on June 26, 2013 at 12:38 a.m.

Pay special note to this sentence:
"Add up all the hours we put into it, combined with the 60 hours of no-sleep from Friday to Monday morning, and we're paid less than minimum wage at the end of the weekend."

AKA: They do make money, he just attached arbitrary value to said time.

If you want to make comments like this, show us your balance sheets. Don't throw out some numbers and then slyly hide things like the above quote. Show us your actual balance sheets.

HyperCombinationFinish said on June 26, 2013 at 12:46 a.m.

Dat Triforce laying down pragmatic knowledge for FGC scrubs. Stream monsters thinking the FGC will miraculously gain popularity without corporate backing. #Logic

SabishiiRyuu said on June 26, 2013 at 12:54 a.m.

@30: how about i show you my d!ck? :)

tktktk43 said on June 26, 2013 at 1:13 a.m.

I commend tournament organizers for what they do but I agree with some of the lads here. It's lop-sided when only the costs are reported and not the revenue. I'm curious to know what the cash flow is compared to costs. At the end of the day when it comes to investing time and money it has to pay off. It may not be a lot but I would assume it's profitable otherwise I don't think anyone would keep injecting hard earned money for the sole purpose of supporting the community. I do taxes professionally on the side and costs equates to $6000-$15000 dollars. But I can easily generate over 100k (I have a significant client base) with base charge of $110 for 1040A and $130 for 1040 and $250+ for business forms for 2012 tax year. The 6k-15k investment doesn't seem a relevant when compared to revenue generated. All this depends on my client base so it's rather similar to how tournaments are run.

AzureRedemption said on June 26, 2013 at 1:34 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

koolersama said on June 26, 2013 at 1:35 a.m.

#33 thank you for being smart.

BladeStunner said on June 26, 2013 at 1:39 a.m.

We need more celebrities!

Ren said on June 26, 2013 at 2:18 a.m.

Speaking of TO's where John Nelson @

I'm sure he'd have words on the subject.

JudyCrews44 said on June 26, 2013 at 2:33 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

Freeyu said on June 26, 2013 at 3:43 a.m.

Well this is a sad story.

Benify said on June 26, 2013 at 4:48 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

SweetJohnnyCage said on June 26, 2013 at 5:45 a.m.

I never posted this as a "look at my problems QQ". If you read the context on NeoGAF, some really wild numbers of us making $30,000 in profit were being thrown around. Someone asked if I could provide some transparency into what goes into running a major.

Havok214 said on June 26, 2013 at 6:56 a.m.

The FGC is full of a bunch of unappreciative/ungrateful babies who have absolutely zero business sense. The TO's do so much for this community and make such little money and everyone treats them like crap. The moment someone tries to do something out of the norm to make this more profitable, everyone starts to complain about "esports" as if making money is a crime. Do you work for free? I didn't think so. The FGC needs corporate sponsors if you want to see it grow and gain popularity and profitability, but I wouldn't expect these little kids to understand that. I can say first hand that the aforementioned revenues are not that significant and that TOs are not making much money.

OneFrameLink said on June 26, 2013 at 6:57 a.m.
(This comment was hidden because it was down voted. You can view it by clicking here.)
KingItachi said on June 26, 2013 at 7 a.m.

Thanks for the info Johnny.

shekeib said on June 26, 2013 at 7:06 a.m.

so are you not allowed to tell us how much revenue was made or would you rather keep it private. i think we're all curious

PropLeXed said on June 26, 2013 at 7:08 a.m.

Always good to hear from someone that actually knows what they're talking about.

Hakansoilbarrel said on June 26, 2013 at 7:23 a.m.

(So, this is probably a good place to say I'd like to be paid less than minimum wage for this. Because I don't have a job.

Seriously. Consider it?:


ElderSkrulls said on June 26, 2013 at 7:32 a.m.

It seems like a lot of members of the FGC ,or at least those posting comments, have no real work or life experience and just like to spit on people who try to accomplish something and help us all enjoy the scene more from behind their monitors.

iloveolives said on June 26, 2013 at 7:33 a.m.

What corporate sponsor would touch a niche community whose disposable income is $5 per month?

TheUraharashop said on June 26, 2013 at 7:36 a.m.

Possibly additional sponsor ships from local businesses could be able to increase the amount of revenue. Possibly pulling in local businesses to be able to help subsidize the events by directing the patrons of the event to their businesses; make sense.

It's not the proverbial silver bullet, but it opens the line of dialogue to increase FGC's exposure.

scytheavatar said on June 26, 2013 at 8:06 a.m.

Can someone explain to me what's wrong even if the TOs are making a ton of money from their events? These guys are the ones putting in the work to keep the FGC alive, why the heck do they have the obligation to devote their time and effort slaving away for the FGC for no reward? I challenge any of you guys who think the TOs are making too much money to organize your own events and provide an alternative. Jaxel complains about TOs mistreating him and expecting him to work for free, why don't he organize his own events instead?

SRankedMission said on June 26, 2013 at 8:29 a.m.

Why is this supposed to be a job? No one forced them to do anything.

dennishubs said on June 26, 2013 at 8:37 a.m.

no one is making it a job, it's just TOs and streamers in general always talks about how all these events cost so much money and please donate and donate and donate otherwise they're making a loss etc etc.. all we're saying is, if you're being transparent, then show us the revenue, the profits, be completely transparent instead of just telling us the costs and expects everyone to continue donating.

Drewsan said on June 26, 2013 at 9:20 a.m.

I read about 8 pages of the thread over on GAF... this is ridiculous, all the way around. The FGC cannot grow unless folks start treating it like a real business. That means streamers get paid, get free room and board, etc. Any other major contributors on the production end should get free rooms. They are part of the production team, and the production team shouldn't have to pay to work. This reminds me of those shady "job" or "opportunity" listings on Mandy or NEF classifieds. What's going on [in the community] is the equivalent of an indie film set, where people are scraping by for some romantic notion about the love and purity of the "scene." If the scene is a bunch of broke dudes standing around, the scene needs to change up. That means real collaboration, communication, and honesty. That means showing those costs and profits, so others with resources can actually make a decision on whether or not the FGC is a viable model to potentially invest in. I say potentially because NO investor worth his or her salt would ever take a flyer on some model where TO's can't even come clean about their balance sheets... This is simply not a good look. Payouts get better when people with more money, more time, more effort choose to get involved. But the FGC gives off extremely negative vibes, and situations like this, on a site like this, only prove to exacerbate the situation.

NissanZaxima said on June 26, 2013 at 9:39 a.m.

Pretty much any "TO's are evil" dribble you hear from people is hogwash. John Nelson is an extreme case where the TO completely ripped off the community. As mentioned before TO's do it because they love the community/competitive gaming in general, hell some people even LOSE money while going through all the stress it takes setting up and running a major.

People need to be more appreciative about what TO's do and the work they put in for little reward they see in return. I am glad to see a good amount positive comments in this section.

Havok214 said on June 26, 2013 at 10:09 a.m.


I agree with most of what you said about treating this like a business if you want the FGC to grow. However, there is absolutely no incentive or obligation to for TOs to show their books to stream monsters. The only people who need to see that info is the TOs themselves (and their trusted staff) or potential sponsors/investors who they have solicited. These are the only people who have any real use for that information. Making that info public is not a good move at all.

SweetJohnnyCage said on June 26, 2013 at 10:27 a.m.

As I said on GAF, opening the books is a bad idea. No matter what number we say, either $10 or $10,000, it will be too much for someone. If it's $10, they'll say "Why not just put it into a prize pool? It's only $10!". If it's $10,000, we'll be called thieves. There is no good way to do it, so we choose not to. I figured illustrating the costs would better help people understand that at the end of the day, it's not a sustainable living and we just do it because we like doing it. I love this community and I barely play fighting games. All I play is 3rd Strike!

xShonuffx said on June 26, 2013 at 10:29 a.m.

Well I understand cost to run a tourney is high but paying people below the minimum wage is illegal. I know its what they like to do and is a passion and shout outs to them for keeping things running smooth (when they do)but that's just crazy. And while the cost are high, what about the paid sponsors on the streams like Madcatz and such for example? I thought they put in a nice check to keep tourneys running. Maybe the asking price should be higher?

Without enough transparency its difficult to assess where the problem begins and were it ends. Organizers just needs to be real with us. And I also don't mind paying a more hefty fee as long as the commendations are reasonable (Room to walk and breath and safety.

scytheavatar said on June 26, 2013 at 10:32 a.m.

@54 think most TOs see Jaxel as a leech ATM and don't see a point in paying him for his services. It's up to Jaxel to make TOs desperate to retain his services, and ATM his arrogance is giving TOs zero incentive to do that. Most TOs will tell you that having multiple streams themselves are a luxury and if you are not happy that your favorite game isn't getting streamed you should have came down to the events yourself and watch it in person.

SweetJohnnyCage said on June 26, 2013 at 10:33 a.m.

@58 I think you misread what I said in the post. We're not paying people below minimum wage, WE'RE getting paid below minimum wage once it's all said and done.

yes4me said on June 26, 2013 at 10:47 a.m.

Interesting and informative.

People will always complain, because they don't care about other people issues until there is no more tournament that they can attend. Then they will complain that there is no venue for their "top skill" to be displayed.

Blackhoel said on June 26, 2013 at 11:14 a.m.

Thanks for the transparency SweetJohnnyCage and Triforce. The fact we have people in this community who can just lay it out like that without blowing smoke up our ass about not only where we as a community are heading, but how we need to view it from the outside looking in I think will help the transition into the next generation of tournaments and competition that much easier.

Drewsan said on June 26, 2013 at 11:44 a.m.

@ Havok

I kinda feel that, but I remember some years back when a similar thing happened on OkayPlayer (if anyone can find the link, post that ish). Basically, a bunch of dudes were talking about how much rappers MUST make, how the Roots should have more than enough, etc. Questlove broke out the balance sheets and broke down just how exactly expensive it is to be a touring band that is as popular as the Roots. For people ignorant to the biz, it really opened a lot of eyes. I'm not saying that TO's have to go on stram to defend themselves, but there should be at least one person with the clout to can step up to the plate and talk about expenditures AND profits, no matter how meager. It will help in the long run.

YanDaMan said on June 26, 2013 at 11:52 a.m.

Holy God reading these idiotic comments.

1. He already said they make LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE over the weekend and you idiots are STILL asking for what the revenue is? Use your damn heads. 72 hours of...assuming 5 dollars per hour. Thats NOTHING.

2. John Gallagher didnt share this for your damn pity. He's providing information because apparently, a bunch of dumbasses recently started calling TOs out for making too much money over social media. Frankly, for all the hard work they do, they DESERVE it. And why the fk do you care if they make money? You pay your tournament fee, which ALL goes into the pot, and small venue fee and hotel fees to have a good time just like ANY event you travel to. Whats it to you if they make money?

Jesus Christ people. Why is this even a damn issue? If anything they dont make enough for the BS they have to go through to make these events happen for the REST OF US.

OneFrameLink said on June 26, 2013 at noon

@64 Your points are valid, but just some clarification:

Tournament/venue fees don't go into the pot, they help to pay for the cost of the tournament. Nowadays, they are significantly more than pot fees for most majors (somewhere around the $40-$50 range, vs $10 for pots).

But 100% agreed on the fact that it doesn't matter if they know how much a TO makes or not.

YanDaMan said on June 26, 2013 at 12:15 p.m.

#65 Yeah thats what I mean. Theres the venue fee everyone pays that helps pay the cost (usually 20-30$). When I said tournament fee I meant the fee you pay per game (usually 10$). And I know that goes into the pot for said game.

Wedge said on June 26, 2013 at 2:05 p.m.

Yo what, $1000 for an internet connection for a weekend? Hotel venues suck ass.

misdaa said on June 26, 2013 at 3:23 p.m.

He said "Add up all the hours we put into it, combined with the 60 hours of no-sleep from Friday to Monday morning, and we're paid less than minimum wage at the end of the weekend."

First off, you are taking that as 100% truth, with no manipulation. For me, this sentence is clearly hiding something.

Second, that's not 60 hours. He's obviously including lots of other time involved.

I don't care how much they make, just don't pretend like you don't make money if you do.

deteknician said on June 26, 2013 at 3:43 p.m.

Friday 24h + Saturday 24h + Sunday 24h = 72 hours

72 > 60.

It's 60 hours if they get 4 hours of sleep each night which definitely sounds plausible.

RSJGeneralRoxus said on June 26, 2013 at 3:48 p.m.

U gotta live the fgc drama! Good info about the TO'S though

Crysalim said on June 26, 2013 at 6:06 p.m.

Nah dude, do not conflate the biggest tournaments with the smallest.

They are similar only in name. Not in procedure, expense, or organization.

It is more than possible to run a tournament and scalp players/spectators for their cash, but at the same time, those tournaments do not last. The biggest ones get to their level by loving what they do - but this does not remove the possibility of scamming.

Sponsors are called that for what they do; they pay for things, and they take care of events. ECT is so friggin awesome that every tournament should be held up to that standard, but don't assume by default that every tournament *does that*.

It can seriously flip from year to year, I'm sure we all remember Revelations 2012 (well, if you don't.. tl;dr, all the KOF13 players refused to play over a pot scandal)

What needs to happen is that good TO's get props from the community, and bad TO's get blasted. It has been pretty good in general, but don't let collusion get in the way of thinking a tournament is going to be all sparkles and glory because someone "took the time" to set it up.

d55pedal said on June 27, 2013 at 1:30 a.m.

I going to say what I said on the last forum cause I think it needs to be heard and I would respect it either of these options need to be tackled for tournaments in order for this to grow outside of sponsors of course.

charge less for entry fee's(its actually more profitable this way cause local guys have even less reason not to compete and people from afar can only have to pay mainly travel at least so its not so low on return value for a player)

Find a way to tackle transportation so people can actually get there as that is definitely the main problem.

Charge a dollar per streamer which could be very profitable especially considering the expenses they used with just a dollar per stream monster based on the views they get which is high 41,000(and sometimes locals sometimes get these numbers in six months that could easily be what 150 dollars or wayy more if saved from all the tournaments) and even higher for tournaments like evo and final round it would be wayy more profitable and the fgc would grow on its own long as the money saved is handled wisely.

bmckay said on June 27, 2013 at 6:40 a.m.

Since I can't say it on Gaf, I'd like to make something abundantly clear: That $30,000 figure that keeps getting thrown around was Jaxel using hypothetical entry numbers (registration fee x player count) and assuming a free venue (which he said BigE gets). $30/registration for 1000 players = $30,000. If you meet these numbers, but you DON'T get a free venue, your costs get deducted from the $30K. Whether your entry fee is $50 and you have 500 registrations, or your fee is $75 and you have 6000, your costs come out of that. THAT'S what Jaxel was saying.

Can we please drop the $30K thing now?

KristineR said on June 27, 2013 at 9:29 a.m.

You know people need to wake up. If these guys were not making any money why would keep doing the same tournament year after year but then expanding their tournament series by adding another tournament; such as the fall classic. These guys are making money. The issue is not the money they are making; the issue is the lack of re-investment in the scene. They are not taking the money and paying guys like Jaxel who are programmers or paying graphic designers or even getting larger and more comfortable venues.
No one would have an issue paying a high venue fee if the place was high end with fast internet etc. that’s the real issue. The scene grew from people chipping in; chipping in by: bringing their own game systems and televisions to events for use, streaming for free and offering various skills such as graphic design, web page design work. Even people offering their time to help out is a form of chipping in. That is how this scene grew but now people are getting greedy.
They don’t want to pay others and they want to take advantage of people. Heaven forbid you say something, they get you black listed. Even if big E couldn’t pay Jaxel, he could have at least not ruined his relationship with Namco and kept his mouth shut to the St Maartin tourism board. Its all about the money and these organizers are getting plenty of it. Now certain streamers are as well. The fact you can get certain matches on film is golden for a streamer. Watch infighting begin with the streamers soon. That is how you know there is a lot of money involved in this because if everyone was on an equal playing field why would you tarnish someone’s reputation?
It will take a major corporation to come in and sponsor one or two events. Then watch organizers that you have come to know and love stop doing events. They will no longer be able to line their pockets and cut corners like they have been. They will then say something along the lines of: “The scene has changed and its time for me to move on”

mikejkelley said on June 29, 2013 at 3:26 a.m.

@12, 15, please substitute "opinion" for "problems," reread your comments and then stfu forever and ever.

AndreTomazini said on June 29, 2013 at 9:47 a.m.

Oh crap...if you think they are making too much money just don't support the tornament.

It just looks like as a bunch of vultures which doesn't have the courage/money/knowhow to organize they own tornaments and envy people who works hard to probaly have low profits.


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