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Smash Bros. was created because of Street Fighter 2 clones running amok, creator felt Melee targeted the wrong type of audience - Series retrospective

Posted by Jonathan 'Catalyst' Grey • February 16, 2014 at 10:01 p.m. PST

In the mid-to-late 1990s the marketplace was saturated with 2D fighting games in the vein of Street Fighter 2.

This glut of titles actually helped birth the Super Smash Bros. series, as it made the creator, Masahiro Sakurai, set out to create something new and different.

Nintendo wanted a product that could take advantage of the Nintendo 64's four controller ports, and eventually Sakurai decided to create a battle royale type game. As such, the Smash Bros. series was born.

Some might be surprised to know that Masahiro Sakurai wasn't actually happy with some of the ways Super Smash Bros. Melee on the GameCube turned out — even though the game was a massive success — he felt it was too difficult for newcomers.

"I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said back in 2010. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then?"

If these factoids interest you, and you want to go further, check out the Smash Bros. retrospective by TheGameDirect after the jump, which not only recaps these details, but goes in depth on the series as a whole.

Video from TheGameDirect, Sakurai quote from 1UP. Submitted by MugenLord.

Comments

Mr_Pyro said on February 16, 2014 at 10:05 p.m.

Casual and competitive players enjoyed Melee immensely, though. I don't think there were problems with targeting competitive players.

#1
EA575 said on February 16, 2014 at 10:06 p.m.

inb4peoplehatingonsakurai

#2
RenyNoise said on February 16, 2014 at 10:10 p.m.

You got a well made product, alot of people tell me Melee is better than brawl.

#3
Scourge739 said on February 16, 2014 at 10:13 p.m.

Well, all neutral people, put up the walls to defend ourselves from the: "smash isn't a fighting game war"

#4
Ermapume said on February 16, 2014 at 10:19 p.m.

The core mechanics of Melee ment anybody could dive into it. Most of the advanced tactics happened to also be exploits rather than anything ill-designed. Melee did great and Sakurai should be proud, not resentful.

#5
Gotomaster said on February 16, 2014 at 10:26 p.m.

It is, Brawl, while a good game is painfully flat.

#6
GoodMan said on February 16, 2014 at 10:26 p.m.

I thank Sakarai and Iwata so much for N64 Smash. No other game could have been as fun and competitive when a bunch of friends came over weekly, except 007 goldeneye. The new smash is going to be amazing. They learned their mistakes from brawl and are going to do well with this one. Little Mac yo.

#7
TrueGamingGuru said on February 16, 2014 at 10:31 p.m.

For fighter game standards, SSB is pretty unique for the time since it debuted back in 1999. SSB doesn't tend to play like the late 80s to 90s when every fighter game had health bar, mostly had opponents facing each other (with no freedom to move around), and tried to copy the success from SF, MK, or VF to name a few. Sure SSB isn't the same as traditional fighters at the time, but was still worthy of a fighter game and what made this series successful was making it a crossover. Which I do give credit to Sakurai, Iwata, & Nintendo of Japan for creating this game that everyone knows as of today.

That's sometimes a problem with the gaming industries including the West of today. When a certain game from certain genre becomes pretty popular, that is where other companies have made their games for what genre was pretty popular. Back in the 80s-90s was adventure platform games from Mario, Sonic, Crash, Spyro, Donkey Kong Country, Banjo-Kazooie etc.

Then came fighter genre where there plenty of games after the success of SFII which spawn MK, Fatal Fury, Art of Fighters, KOF, VF, Tekken, Soul Edge (Soul Calibur), DOA etc.

Lastly from part of the 90s-today is the shooter genre and have spawned so many games & will continue to do so in the future (maybe soon will wear-off eventually) with classics Wolfenstein, Duke Nukem, Doom, Quake, Halo, COD, Battlefield etc.

There will be moments that videogames will eventually wear off and not be as unique if almost every videogame try to do what every other company or what is rapidly popular that mainstream gamers would even play. It would be better if you let the developers make their own game & not always follow what every group have been doing.

Verity is the key to videogames.

#8
jhayze said on February 16, 2014 at 10:36 p.m.

*cough* Power Stone *cough*

#9
nosloandy said on February 16, 2014 at 11:04 p.m.

And of course, Nintendo's way of making it easier for newcomers was "Hey, lets add in RANDOM TRIPPING! That evens it out, right!?"

#10
LuigiFan64 said on February 16, 2014 at 11:04 p.m.

@9 When is next-gen Power Stone? :(

#11
kac1010 said on February 16, 2014 at 11:05 p.m.

I'm a fan of games with a simple base that, with enough time and practice, can have a deep wealth of high execution/skill gameplay.
Take GunZ, for example. Remarkably easy to play. Once exploits with animations similar to melee was discovered, it's popularity blew up as both casuals and competitive players could enjoy it.

#12
ManRightChea said on February 16, 2014 at 11:06 p.m.

I think most view SSB as a fighter just out of courtesy really, since I know the Smash community tends to be sensitive about that, though Sakurai himself does not believe it to be a fighter.

I agree jahzye, Power Stone was super fun too. I really wish Capcom would bring that back.

#13
THTB said on February 16, 2014 at 11:27 p.m.

I don't see how Sakurai could be disappointed with Melee in any way. The game appealed to EVERYONE for a number of reasons. The core of the game made it easy as hell to just pick up and goof around with friends, ESPECIALLY with the special modes (The hectic nature of Super Sudden Death made it one of my absolute favorite modes, especially on Hyrule Temple. 99-stock Super Sudden Death was my ****). With a group of friends, the game could very easily be shaped to play how you wanted it to.

On the complete other side of the spectrum, the game had numerous exploits that didn't destroy the game. In fact, they enhanced it, attracting the hardcore gaming crowd that enjoyed stuff like that. Almost 13 years after its release, all the exploits found and perfected have seriously shaped the game into an insanely technical and competitive PvP game, that has depth for days. Even today, the game draws in tons of competitors from across the world to play.

Melee is essentially that "game for everyone". Sakurai is pretty bull-headed to think that the game targeted the wrong audience. It not only attracted the intended audience just fine, it attracted an unexpected audience that has been a major part in the competitive video game scene.

#14
TrueGamingGuru said on February 16, 2014 at 11:36 p.m.

Actually about Sakurai believe his own project not to be a fighter, was completely misinterpret by the people who were actually interviewing him. I'm just throwing it out there.

Here is one of the interview:

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-saku...

#15
Soriphen said on February 16, 2014 at 11:47 p.m.

I think he's resentful of Melee because of how much it sucked the life out of him when he worked on it. Him and his team basically lived in the office for 13 months and worked on it 24/7 without holidays to get the game technical.

He most likely realized that he could drop his unhealthy ego and achieve what Nintendo wanted with Smash (good sales and growing community).

The problem however was that since he didn't like how self-destructive his competitiveness was while creating Melee, he associated anything technical and competitive after that as negative. This reflects in Brawl and his aversion to technical fighters after making Melee.

He would excuse this by saying that Melee was "difficult" when really everyone loved Melee and it was accessible, albeit with a high skill ceiling as well.

It was only recently that he realized that a fighter can be accessible to even more people and make sales if he developed it with competitive and non-competitive gamers in mind instead of focusing on just one group.

As long as he doesn't go to any extremes and not let his resentment of the Melee days colour the development of SSBWiiU, then we could get a truly accessible fighter, like Persona 4 Arena.

#16
Deathknight said on February 17, 2014 at 12:32 a.m.

This is easily one of my favorite eventhub posts of the year.
Buying me a WiiU with SuperSmash Bros

Also shoutouts to all the N64 people who played the original Smash Bros.

#17
chipndip said on February 17, 2014 at 12:50 a.m.

You're making it seem like he's writing off Melee as an excuse. He's not. In actuality:

1) His comments on Melee are spot on if you're not a blind bat. Playing Melee is fun for everyone...until you pair someone who CAN wave dash with someone who can't. Those movement exploits put a huge mountain between the casuals and the competitive players. The issue with that is that casuals don't like it when they're getting blown up and beat down all year long.

2) Melee's competitive crowd spits on Brawl's existence like it's a mission. We get it: Brawl's not as competitive. That doesn't mean it's not a good game (not saying you said that, but I'm just saying "in general"). A game doesn't have to be hyper-competitive to be fun. I have plenty of friends that like Smash because it's Smash, but then there's those few SF players I know that s**t on Brawl all the time, and only talk about Melee and Project M. Oh, the bias is real...

Basically, Melee made a huge divide in the type of crowd Smash brings in, so now it's more work to cater to them all. It's not that Melee was good or bad, but the final product had unintended results that a perfectionist working at a perfectionist company like Nintendo didn't like. Brawl was the first effort in removing those things...although they replaced them with...some other...questionable things...like...trip...ping...

...

...no one likes tripping, though. >_>

#18
omglonghair said on February 17, 2014 at 1:08 a.m.

Like most japanese game makers they are never satisfied with there games even when they are near perfect lol

#19
rocorolly said on February 17, 2014 at 1:35 a.m.

Capcom should've did like Nintendo. Nintendo realized they needed to put iconic characters in their quality brawler, for guaranteed consistent success. Capcom paid homage to their iconic characters in the Power Stone series kind of (I normally dislike guest characters) but I really think some of their popular characters at the time could have benefited that series by guest starring in it. Nearly a year later though Smash comes with a vengeance using nothing but (aside from maybe 2) iconic popular characters. Why? Because they are Nintendo that's why. To be honest all they needed was Pokemon in the title to sell the every living hell out of it. They overworked in that regard.

#20
TheTHCGamer said on February 17, 2014 at 1:58 a.m.

Exactly took the words right out of my head. The outcomes for the smash bros games no matter how much you dumb them down will come down to skill (for the most part). Every smash bros game was accessible and you sir get a thumbs up. Were talking about very simple special attack and regular attacks which means Melee was still very a accessible to new players. You want every player to have the opportunity to be able to level up there game as they see fit and when you dumb down an already very accessible game your only limiting the player.

As I stated though it's pointless in my opinion also because players who were always good will remain that way because they put in the work. Same with new players the more time they put in the better they become due to the time they put in getting better. In competitive games there's always going to be a skill gap but that doesn't mean you have to be a damn expert to enjoy a competitive game. It's just like when I hear people turned off about fighting games that are to supposedly advanced.

You can enjoy any fighting or competitive game at different levels if play. This is the problem with the mentality of a lot of gamers these days they want instant gratification. To me it's a lot more rewarding to become good at a game that takes skill and time to learn than something I don't even have to think about to be successful at. Now don't get me wrong it's nice to take a break to play your occasional mindless game for a break but my favorite games have always been competitive ones. When it comes to smash bros there is no reason you should make them anymore accessible then they already are.

If anything I'd go back to the Melee structure because that seems to be the most successful from fan feedback and don't give me sales figures because with each new iteration of smash new fans join so of course sales might be better with each sequel. I don't know if that will be the case for the Wii U due to the low sale numbers but a smash bros bundle as I mentioned before could help alleviate that. After there aren't many games more popular than smash and for good reason it's one of the funnest gaming franchises ever. So yea no need to make smash more accessible.

#21
Smorgasboard said on February 17, 2014 at 2:38 a.m.

He set out to create a different fighting game that everyone can play together but it turned into a hard-core competitive game anyway.

Now, some fans of the game are telling him to make the next Smash game NOT different from the rest, exactly the type of game that he never wanted to make.

#22
kingofthesharks said on February 17, 2014 at 2:42 a.m.

Watched this video about a year ago when it came out. It's a good summary, but also was made before any SSB4 trailer and real info started pouring out. More recent interviews in the context of SSB4 seem to show Sakurai either contradicting himself or representing a slight change of heart...or of course an exaggerated mistranslation. At least on the reflection and direction of Smash regarding balance and speed.

It's really hard to tell where Sakurai's intentions lie regarding competition since there's only been 3 games in 15 years, but I think each game generally just represents Nintendo at the time.

SSB64 was Nintendo's innovative stamp on the fighting genre, setting itself apart by taking advantage of the N64's analog sticks and 4 controller ports. It was humble and low-budget as an experiment.

Melee represented advances with the Gamecube: Everything was smoother, faster, and more confident. Both the quantity and quality of the content was taken to 11 and it appealed to Nintendo's casual AND hardcore fans, both audiences that Nintendo respected in 2001. It was the highest selling Gamecube game ever because of this.

Brawl represented the Wii era. With Nintendo drunk on the mass casual install base that their super-successful console brought in, they noticeably dropped attention on their hardcore gamers to make things as casual as possible (since casuals were more profitable). Many of their franchises got easier and/or "handholdy", and Smash was no exception.

#23
Goldynisty said on February 17, 2014 at 3:21 a.m.

A good history video. Didn't know that history was so much fun and sexy at the same time. But she looks familiar to Air. Could she be the brother of him?

#24
de_climax said on February 17, 2014 at 3:21 a.m.
(This comment was hidden because it was down voted. You can view it by clicking here.)

Brawl's not a good game.

#25
JIHADJOE said on February 17, 2014 at 3:26 a.m.

So Sakurai hates the competitive Smash community because they went and turned his game into the last thing he wanted it to become -- a competitive fighting game.

#26
Shinkutatsumaki said on February 17, 2014 at 3:54 a.m.

Here's an example of how accessible melee was. I had fun playing casually for years. Then I had fun playing it competitively years later. Think about it, if it was only casual, I and many other players like myself would have been done with the game long ago. Yet even today it's still relevant. The casual / competitive hybrid of melee was like playing in your own personal theme park, then one day randomly finding a secret door that lead to a more fun world. The Easter eggs of melee made it the legend of a game it is today. So Sakurai, please make it a game that all can truly enjoy. You've already done it with melee, and you've seen how people have done it with project M. I know you can do it again :)

#27
Jookey said on February 17, 2014 at 3:55 a.m.

"he felt it was too difficult for newcomers"

How? Was just as easy for a newcomer to pick up that as it was for 64.

#28
Shinkutatsumaki said on February 17, 2014 at 4:03 a.m.

You have good taste :D

#29
wayofBushinRyu said on February 17, 2014 at 4:15 a.m.

Yeah, actually it is. The competitive scene only hates it because you can't really exploit it to the extent of Melee.

#30
ButterKnife said on February 17, 2014 at 5:06 a.m.

They created it to not be Street Fighter, and then people messed with the options to attempt to make it into Street Fighter.

I like Smash regardless, but competitive Melee doesn't seem too exciting to me. I like items and wacky level effects, even when they're BS (Except really insane things like Smash balls).

#31
HeatEXTEND said on February 17, 2014 at 5:33 a.m.

Hop on a new meme, this one's dead.

#32
OmegaStriker said on February 17, 2014 at 6:09 a.m.

I love the Smash series regardless, and can't wait for the new one. Very interesting character choices they're coming up with; as a fan of the Punch-Out!! series I'm stoked for the new game!

#33
DjCrimsonFox said on February 17, 2014 at 6:28 a.m.

I loved each game of the smash series in general. I honestly think if tripping had been omitted from brawl, more people would've honestly given the game a chance in general.

I hope the next one finds a nice sweet spot between brawl and melee, and personally I hope they bring back Wolf O'Donnell, had so much fun with him.

#34
SirRetro08 said on February 17, 2014 at 6:47 a.m.

I understand why Sakurai said he targeted the wrong type of audience. Looking at many of the comments in the article about Brawl proves it. When making competitive, especially fighting type games, people would tend to demand fixtures and balances and concrete tier lists and modifications to fit their standards. Smash Bros. was meant for everyone to enjoy and just play and not constantly under analysis every 10 seconds. He created Brawl to counteract that situation. It's more casual because he wanted people either not familiar with the series or with traditional fighting games in the first place to enjoy and play without being overwhelmed with veterans and pros.

Ask yourself these questions: Can you really play SF or Marvel casually? Is there simplier controls (NOT LIMITED) that newcomers who don't want to get competitive can try? Smash Bros. tries to offer a game you can enjoy for fun. The only series Capcom made closest to that was Power Stone.

Of course NOTHING can 100% escape from the world of competition, but to shun everything thing that tries not to be is ridiculous.

#35
shinra358 said on February 17, 2014 at 6:51 a.m.

I'm mad that every fighting game is a "sf2 clone".....

I don't hear ppl saying, oh Need for Speed is a "Space Race clone". Or Sonic is a "Mario clone". It's called genres ppl. Don't invalidate ppl's work just because they made a game based on a genre. Who would even want to release something if it's going to be referred to as an "X clone".

#36
Scourge739 said on February 17, 2014 at 7:54 a.m.

Wow. You're right. No haters came into the comment section.

#37
Lavama said on February 17, 2014 at 7:59 a.m.

SAKURAI WHY YOU NO HAVE KRAID AS A STAGE ENEMY NO MORE

#38
ProfessorLester said on February 17, 2014 at 8:05 a.m.

Sorry but Mario Kart 64 and WrestleMania 2000

#39
houtori said on February 17, 2014 at 8:30 a.m.

I'll admit, I was a player who wanted smash bros to become street fighter. I played melee all day practicing tech skill. Now i annihilate my friends, But its 100% true that I'm only beating them because I've practiced such an awkward skill and understand all available recovery options. They often remind me and complain about it. They are all casual players who would much prefer the game be a battle royal ClusterF***. I'm starting to get used to this, as we've all started playing turbo mode and the game is generally much more silly and fun(mainly because it encourages button inputs similar to marvel). I got into a heated argument with a friend because he refused to play time mode and only wanted project M. We play time because certain players die much more than others, this allows them to keep playing. I hope that Sakurai finds a even balance between competitive and casual, because I love to give it my 100%, but alot of my friends prefer playing casually. I hope that he can find an even balance where my friends won't call me a cheater or a tryhard, But I can still come out on top using tactics that are not viewed as "cheap" or "braindead".

#40
perfume said on February 17, 2014 at 8:56 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#41
ButterKnife said on February 17, 2014 at 9:12 a.m.

Not every fighting game is an SF clone, but most fighting games of the early and mid 90's were. All the SNK games, Primal Rage, Killer Instinct, Tournament Fighters, and even Mortal Kombat.

It wasn't really until 3D fighters, MvC, and Smash that the genre got away from every game just being Street Fighter with different characters.

#42
Yarott said on February 17, 2014 at 9:19 a.m.

OK, so the main reason for his dislike on Melee isn't about (well, not just about) its Competitive Scene, but being unfriendly to newcomers. And he is not talking about newcomers to the Smash Brothers series, but to Video Games in general. I could vouch for that being true. The only people who care about the game being this "Gold Vein of potential discovery" are those "well-versed" in video games beforehand. Melee had a lot of things that once found and mastered, well, exploitation would follow. These kinds of things and very easily build barriers that would divide an entire bas of players, competitive or not. Of course, this all holds true in any title accepted by the so-called FGC.

Then, there's Brawl. Which, of course, was his attempt for making it the anti-thesis of competitive. Which in a way worked, but did lead to the inroduction of universally unwanted core mechanics. Those being the random tripping/prat falling, slow falling, and raising the decay rate of all moves with that "Stale Move Negation. Which would make fights sluggish, and in the end, not very enjoyable to both new and old video game players. I'm sure this made Sakurai try again, since he basically went for each extreme of a player niche in his previous two SSB titles.

Well, so far, Kerfuffle is looking and shaping up to be that happy medium between Melee and Brawl that perhaps was the very thing he was looking for! Then again, this is Sakurai...

#43
roknin said on February 17, 2014 at 9:51 a.m.

Pretty much this.

#44
A2ZOMG said on February 17, 2014 at 10:24 a.m.

I absolutely agree with Sakurai as a fan of the Smash Bros series that he made a ton of mistakes when he designed it, especially when he designed Melee.

Shield drop being 14 frames is probably the most severe of the offending elements in Melee. This fact alone is the reason why noob players roll constantly. Shield dropping punishes you so hard in this game if you don't know how to jump out of shield and wavedash, which I feel is complete utter BS.

In general I agree with Sakurai that his game is way too hard to learn and creates too much skill disparity issues. This is a bad thing both competitively and casually. It is always better when games are intuitive and easier to learn. Melee forces you to learn a bunch of arbitrary things to not suck which aren't immediately obvious unless you are explicitly told about them. Melee is a failure of a game in being able to teach its players how to be good due to how overcomplicated it is for non-practical benefit.

Now the one thing Sakurai has to do to make his series better is to ADD GRAB TECHING. No grab teching makes stage control incredibly stupid in his games in general.

#45
A2ZOMG said on February 17, 2014 at 10:24 a.m.

I absolutely agree with Sakurai as a fan of the Smash Bros series that he made a ton of mistakes when he designed it, especially when he designed Melee.

Shield drop being 14 frames is probably the most severe of the offending elements in Melee. This fact alone is the reason why noob players roll constantly. Shield dropping punishes you so hard in this game if you don't know how to jump out of shield and wavedash, which I feel is complete utter BS.

In general I agree with Sakurai that his game is way too hard to learn and creates too much skill disparity issues. This is a bad thing both competitively and casually. It is always better when games are intuitive and easier to learn. Melee forces you to learn a bunch of arbitrary things to not suck which aren't immediately obvious unless you are explicitly told about them. Melee is a failure of a game in being able to teach its players how to be good due to how overcomplicated it is for non-practical benefit.

Now the one thing Sakurai has to do to make his series better is to ADD GRAB TECHING. No grab teching makes stage control incredibly stupid in his games in general.

#46
Verify said on February 17, 2014 at 10:42 a.m.

I'm not a competitive smash player but skill disparity is the best thing you can create in a competitive game. And melee has great skill disparity and is still extremely fun and welcoming to newcomers. If those newcomers decide they wanna get good then there are plenty of new things to learn and that's great. Many things you can learn in melee aren't intuitive but that's less of a crime than brawl where there were not many ways to improve at all.

#47
A2ZOMG said on February 17, 2014 at 10:50 a.m.

Skill disparity is bad when the things you have to learn are non-intuitive. Melee is a huge offender of promoting arbitrary skill disparity. This is BAD competitively. It means it's much harder for your player base to fundamentally understand how to play the game optimally which makes it harder to develop a strong competitive community.

Fighting games always require skill, and skill disparity is fine when the game mechanics are intuitive and well explained. This is NOT the case for Melee.

Casually the game still manages to be frustrating. Melee does a very poor job of explaining important mechanics that are important for controlling your character. Furthermore they made a lot of dumb mechanics decisions that actually prevent the player from easily understanding how to adapt to the game readily. Shield drop time in Melee is a simple example of this.

#48
GirlsOfGaming said on February 17, 2014 at 11:04 a.m.

wow.

#49
kingofthesharks said on February 17, 2014 at 11:44 a.m.

@ #48

Disagree. Being "good" is all relative. I was whooping my friends casually for years without a single wavedash, WD out of shield, or even ledge-hogging. I had good fundamentals in all the obvious aspects of the engine (and characters), and I developed them naturally thanks to the intuitive basics of Smash. Wavedashing is only useful when you're already good at the game; I've seen many new players attempt to learn it and run straight into an FSmash.

Melee teaches players about its mechanics about as well as any other fighting game. That is to say, not at all (sans the half-minute how2play video). Popping in SF4 or Marvel or whatever, there's obviously no tutorial on what basic stuff like super-cancelling, or links, or cross-ups or even overheads. Only now with games like Skullgirls do we not have to resort to the internet to teach newbies.

I've never heard Melee as frustrating for casuals. Imo, Smash games are the simplest and easiest fighters to pick up. Hence why you'd find 5x more casuals at your local school willing to get in on some Smash (including Melee) over some Tekken or KOF. Nobody in my world had a problem with shield drop time. Consider it a subtle way to influence the game to be more offensive.

#50
Guy110 said on February 17, 2014 at 12:54 p.m.

^Basically this a thousand times. Just because a game has a high skill ceiling doesn't mean it's complicated.

#51
OhYouDontSayThat said on February 17, 2014 at 1:12 p.m.

One time I went up to Sakurai and challenged him to smash. He looked at me expressionless for a moment then said, "I don't pray scrubs." and snapped his fingers.
Suddenly I was grabbed by two guys in suits and escorted out of the public restroom. #RealThings #NonFiction

#52
Gurpwnder said on February 17, 2014 at 1:12 p.m.

Despite what you (and many others) may think, tripping actually has a purpose in Brawl. Tripping was Sakurai's countermeasure against dash-dancing that was so common in high-level Melee play.

#53
Gurpwnder said on February 17, 2014 at 1:31 p.m.

My biggest gripe with Melee was the difference between meteors and spikes. I didn't like how meteors were so weak compared to spikes because of meteor cancelling. If you meteor cancel fast enough, you can actually GO UPWARDS immediately after someone like Donkey Kong punches you down, putting you in a position higher than when you were punched.

I think spikes weren't intended to work the way they did in Melee. I think that because many of them sent you at an angle, perhaps the game engine didn't classify them as meteors, and therefore didn't give players the ability to meteor cancel out of those attacks.

Either way, I'm glad the system was improved in Brawl.

#54
FlynnChop said on February 17, 2014 at 2:37 p.m.

Wow, she basically gives Smash Bros. credit for pioneering the cross-over fighting genre, citing recent games like Marvel 3 as being part of a modern trend.

X-men VS Street Fighter pre-dates Smash by 3 years.

Just saying.

#55
GameMaster said on February 17, 2014 at 2:50 p.m.

All of this is well said.

I don't mind tripping, though. At all. It's a possibility in a REAL fight, so I use that type of mentality. If I trip, I shake it off. Should it cost me a match, oh well. I've endured worse experiences in my life.

Shoot me.

#56
GoodMan said on February 17, 2014 at 2:58 p.m.

If Sakarai removed tripping and infinite air dodge from brawl before release, I don't think it would have received half as much hatred as it did. Brawl is still VERY fun. The casuals are going to eventually stop playing, but the competitive scene is the one that keeps playing for years and years. If he truly makes a game that's right in between Brawl and Melee like he intends, this game can be the best Smash created. Especially if they got a great netcode. Best believe that the Wii U sales are going to shoot up once this game comes out. I hope he adds L-Canceling at least, like N64 and melee had.

#57
FlynnChop said on February 17, 2014 at 3:06 p.m.

There are plenty of things that happen in real fights that most people wouldn't want in a Smash Bros. game...

#58
A2ZOMG said on February 17, 2014 at 3:22 p.m.

How many noobs roll in Smash? You want to know why they all roll? Shield drop time in Melee is your answer.

That's a very simple and easily understood example of how Melee does a very poor job of teaching its players how to adapt to its system easily.

#59
maarkypoo said on February 17, 2014 at 6:17 p.m.

smash is for kids and the creator didn't want it to be "hardcore" type of fighter, that's how he could be disappointed in how melee started to be perceived instead of a family fun nintendo kids game. I think the creator didn't wanna have his game to have anything to do with the fgc

#60
Gladspencer said on February 17, 2014 at 6:52 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#61
Soultrigger said on February 17, 2014 at 7:34 p.m.

There are plenty of problems with Brawl aside from lack of exploits (actually, there are several exploits in Brawl that tournaments have to monitor such as ledge grab camping). A lot of noncasuals cite lack of wavedashing or tripping as to why Melee fans dislike Brawl, showing little understanding of why Melee is much more catered as a competitive game.

The main reason is that Melee heavily favors offensive rushdown, whereas Brawl extremely favors campy defensive style. In Melee, you have SHFFLing and you have hitstun (i.e. combos). In Brawl, you have floaty physics, infinite air dodge, and momentum cancels.

Then of course, there's the fact that Brawl has a far less viable roster than Melee (in spite of its bigger roster). Let's compare Apex 2014 top 8 results:

Melee:
1. VGBC|Dr. PeePee (Falco, Marth)
2. EMP|Mew2King (Marth, Fox, Sheik)
3. MIOM|Mango (Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff)
4. Leffen (Fox)
5. CT|Hungrybox (Jigglypuff)
5. Colbol (Fox)
7. Fiction (Fox)
7. SS|Soft (Jigglypuff)

Brawl:
1. Nairo (Meta Knight)
2. CT|ZeRo (Meta Knight)
3. ESAM (Ice Climbers, Pikachu)
4. EMP|Mew2King (Meta Knight)
5. Ally (Snake, Meta Knight)
5. ST|ADHD (Diddy Kong)
7. CT|Tyrant (Meta Knight)
7. CT|Vinnie (Ice Climbers)

#62
Soultrigger said on February 17, 2014 at 7:51 p.m.

(...continued from last post).

Still looks like a lot of Fox and MK. Is Fox just as bad as MK? Let's compare USA vs the World (again, Apex 2014):

Melee USA:
Dr. PP (Falco)
Mango (Falco)
Hungrybox (Jigglypuff)
Axe (Pikachu)
Mew2King (Sheik)
Wobbles (Ice Climbers)
Hax (Captain Falcon)
Shroomed (Dr. Mario).
Alt: Sfat (Fox)
Alt: Westballz (Falco)

Melee The World:
Armada (Peach)
KK (Sheik)
Javi (Fox)
Over (Sheik)
Leffen (Fox)
Ice (Marth)
Vwins (Peach)
Bam (Falco).
Alt: Kage (Ganon)
Alt: .JPG (Marth)

Brawl USA:
Vinnie (Ice Climbers)
Nairo (MK)
ANTi (MK)
Tyrant (MK)
Mew2King (MK)
ADHD (Diddy Kong)
DEHF (Falco)
ESAM (Pikachu)
Alt: MikeHAZE (Marth)
Alt: Rich Brown (Olimar)

Brawl The World:
Otori (MK)
Rain (MK)
Kakera (MK)
Zero (MK)
9B (Ice Climbers)
Mr. R (Marth)
Leon (Marth)
MikeNeko (Marth)
Alt: Abandando (Wario)
Alt: Ally (Snake)

Half of each Brawl team is made up of MKs. I rest my case.

#63
i208khonsu said on February 17, 2014 at 7:51 p.m.

Any insanely popular game will be boiled down by the hardcore crowd to a level simply unobtainable by the casual crowd. Look at Mario 64, you can't get more casual than that however player like Siglemic have taken that game to the simply insane level.

This is why I believe competitive games like Street Fighter or Smash need to have modes catered toward specifically casual and hardcore audiences. Back in the glorious PC days of Quake this is what lead to multi-million dollar tournaments. Casual players had vanilla Quake and mods like Rocket Arena and Freeze Tag to enjoy all the while the hardcore tournament crowd was tucked away in OSP and CPMA servers. Casual fans didn't get annihilated the moment they dropped into a server by a 10 year veteran like they do in Quake Live or Street Fighter 4.

I think Street Fighter x Tekken really missed on an opportunity here. They could have had a "Pandora Mode" for the casuals. A mode where you unlocked and leveled up gems, used quick combos, and had other fun and interesting training wheels. This mode simply would not attract any hardcore play. Instead they would be interested in a hardcore mode; a mode without gems, or quick combos (which also means more option select opportunities), and possibly no Pandora (although it's not that bad). A more back to basics, but yet more advanced version of the game.

If you don't have modes to segregate these crowds and your game is popular enough to attract a big following, your game is always doomed to have the elites choke out the casual and new players.

#64
Verify said on February 17, 2014 at 7:53 p.m.

A competitive game not being intuitive was a lot bigger of a crime many years ago. Nowadays everyone visits forums and youtubes strategy tactics and combos when they decide they wanna try to get better. It isbad that the info and tools are not taught in the game because it absolutely should be. But this info is so easily available on the Internet that you can't miss it if you do decide you want to be competitive.

#65
kingofthesharks said on February 17, 2014 at 8:37 p.m.

I didn't wanna get into semantics but shield dropping is a platform technique, unless that's what you're implying.

Melee doesn't 'teach' you anything. Almost no fighting game does. You have to learn from the community and yourself what to practice and what habits to get rid of. So what if rolling is addictive to newbies...same can be said of newbies constantly jumping in all SF games, or mashing DP in SF4, or going only for TAC combos in MVC3, etc.

What Smash DOES do masterfully is appeal to newbies' infamous desire to be able to pull off all a characters' moves, and not have memorize quirky digital inputs and commands for the several characters they try out (Namco, Capcom, etc.). This way, they get a feel of comfortable control over each character even at a low level. Melee was obviously no exception. The advanced stuff was reserved for advanced players, which is fine. I can practically guarantee that nobody during the Gamecube era was frustrated by Melee's controls at the casual level.

#66
chipndip said on February 17, 2014 at 9:26 p.m.

All you did was prove yourself wrong. Your entire 2 posts do nothing but put a big red target on exactly what Sakurai was talking about:

1) You said exploits were a GOOD thing. A GOOD THING...really? Smash is coming from one of the most nit-picky, quality controlling companies out there to date, and you're vouching for exploits?

2) If you're whining about infinite air dodging, keep whining. Smash isn't a 1 vs. 1 game. It's up to 4 people, and one air dodge won't allow for decent air combat when there's multiple people out at once.

All in all, Brawl was made more along the lines of Sakurai's vision, with less bugs and less exploits. Melee was a less polished game,a nd that's Sakurai's main problem with it. He's a perfectionist, and Melee was the more flawed game, not Brawl.

#67
TrueGamingGuru said on February 17, 2014 at 11:09 p.m.

Verity as in being completely different from the traditional or typical, adding something that you don't see too often or having its own unique charm that can stand out from the others, and having something other than the same tradition.

For gaming standards have people play all kinds of different of games rather than the same game over & over again (or even one game), and make a game that doesn't always focus on the mainstream/casual but put their focus on the hardcore and even niche group. Like have a game that isn't always like cinema movie, with guns & explosions (like a Michael Bay trailers), with realistic graphics.

Its always about appealing everyone from old school gamers, niche gamers, hardcore competitive gamers, & mainstream casual gamers by making a game that will appeal to the certain group of audience. From having more games that are more Retro Games, (like back in the NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, N64, Saturn, & Dreamcast etc.) Japanese Theme Games, Fighter Games etc.

This is an example of verity.

#68
Utils said on February 18, 2014 at 9:27 a.m.

> Technical

You keep using that word....

#69
Gladspencer said on February 18, 2014 at 11:31 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#70
TrueGamingGuru said on February 18, 2014 at 1:09 p.m.

Looks like I got two words completely mixed up, but yeah I meant "variety".

#71


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