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Jail system in Killer Instinct to undergo more changes, team wants feedback when updates are applied

Posted by Jonathan 'Catalyst' Grey • February 16, 2014 at 8:03 p.m. PST

If you're not a fan of how the current jail system for online matches in Killer Instinct works, don't worry — Double Helix Games has heard you loud and clear and will be making changes to how it functions in the near future.

"The jail system will be going through some changes to work more efficiently," said Double Helix Games' Rich 'FilthieRich' Bantegui. He added that the KI team is very thankful for the feedback they've received.

"Our overall goal for jail was to show that disconnecting isn't worth keeping a specific rank. Once updates are applied, we want [more] feedback," added Bantegui.

You can find FilthieRich's tweets after the jump.

Comments

OhYouDontSayThat said on February 16, 2014 at 8:07 p.m.

The Indians had no locks or keys.
Thus, they had no thieves.

... this may not help, but I thought it sounded cool.

#1
BaltimoreAce said on February 16, 2014 at 8:07 p.m.

If they can't tell who loses the connection then i don't see a good fix. Just leave it as it was and unfortunately lesser people will still rage quit.

#2
Jayson619 said on February 16, 2014 at 8:08 p.m.

It will be reasonable to remove the jail system altogether for now and put it back once its crappy problems are sorted out. By leaving it in there and saying there'll be a fix which will come very late, many innocent players will be jailed for no damn reason.

Get rid of it for the time being.

#3
DontTaseMeBro said on February 16, 2014 at 8:49 p.m.

Well, that was random.

#4
BlackOnyxThunder said on February 16, 2014 at 8:57 p.m.

"Ohhh the irony..." ~ BlackOnyxThunder 2014

BTW: and none saw it coming...

#5
TheTHCGamer said on February 16, 2014 at 9:01 p.m.

I didn't like the idea of jail since it was announced.

#6
HooliganComboFTW said on February 16, 2014 at 9:07 p.m.

Clearly the jail needs electric bars.

#7
HmpLghtng said on February 16, 2014 at 9:22 p.m.

Why don't they just give the person who didn't disconnect points and take some away from the RQer? That seems so much easier than the Jail System. You can quit all you want as long as I'm getting points from you, all you're doing is saving me some time.

#8
BaltimoreAce said on February 16, 2014 at 9:24 p.m.

Because they cannot tell who's rage quitting

#9
ghoultechnology said on February 16, 2014 at 9:29 p.m.

feedback? oh i dunno...how about having it work correctly?

when the jail system was originally announced, filthierich asked for feedback on it. it was patched in less than 24 hours after that, so i guess they really didnt care too much about the feedback.

#10
HyperGadoken said on February 16, 2014 at 11:05 p.m.

Marvel and Street Fighter XTekken can. why can't this game?

#11
HooliganComboFTW said on February 17, 2014 at 12:12 a.m.

Hello easy boosting exploit.

#12
Dimensional said on February 17, 2014 at 12:12 a.m.

If your not a fan of the current jail system? lol wut I thought the problem was that it wasnt working as intended.

Honestly I think they should just give both players a loss in a disconnect just make it simple sure its also open to abuse but I think more people care about not losing than making their opponent take a loss.

If they really cant tell who disconnected then there is no way to properly stop ragequitting it will stop naturally when the casuals move on once the Xbox One gets some more games.

#13
Doppelganger said on February 17, 2014 at 12:30 a.m.

Boosting exploit? That makes absolutely no sense.
First of all, you don't have control over who you face in ranked matches. And even if people were able to control that, they'd already be boosting regardless.

Basically what HmpLghtng said is the simplest solution to ragequitting. It has been utilized in other games and most people are satisfied with such a system. I don't know why there are people that fail to see that.

DH is trying to make some sort of new gold standard, and while things can always be improved, they've only made things much, much worse so far.

#14
Kawalorn said on February 17, 2014 at 12:33 a.m.

It was like that for a moment in Injustice. It was hell on earth. :P

#15
Mike_Z said on February 17, 2014 at 12:46 a.m.

No, they can't. It's provably impossible to tell which player disconnected. You can guess, and you might be right 65% of the time, but you can't tell 100% of the time.

As I said before, even using a 3rd server or "am I still connected to XBL" doesn't work reliably.

IF it were possible to do, EVERY game would do it and there would be zero issue.

#16
ghoultechnology said on February 17, 2014 at 1:04 a.m.

is there a way for the game to, i dunno, ping each player and see what screen theyre on? if someones at the main menu or dashboard that would give it away, right?

or an easier way would just be to check what each player's lifebar was at before a desynch?

anyway is better than what it is now. i got jailed because of OTHER people disconnecting, and in jail people disconnect left and right anyway. the whole jail system is a catastrophe. i don't expect DH to spend any more time attempting to fix it, they'll probably end up leaving it for the MS guys to do.

#17
ShiroKuma said on February 17, 2014 at 1:48 a.m.

I have no idea why so many of you are saying it's not possible to detect who quit. I'm a programmer, I can assure you it is possible (and even if it wasn't, with a statistical layer on top you could still detect rage quitters with above 99.9% accuracy).

#18
musacci said on February 17, 2014 at 3:07 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#19
BucketheadZ06 said on February 17, 2014 at 5:55 a.m.

Back when I had crappy internet, I've been disconnected during ranked matches in SSFIV and I'd end up losing about 100+ pp. And when people rage quit on me, my pp and bp stays the same. Is it really that difficult to do something similar to this on KI?

And Dimensional, giving the person who didn't rage quit a loss is just as bad as being jailed. I'd say about 30 of my first 50 losses on Injustice were before they fixed that crap. Doesn't make sense to punish the person who did nothing wrong. Instead of trying to get fancy, just take points away to drop rank like in MVC, SFxT, SSFIV, etc... Isn't that the whole reason these scrubs quit? To not lose their rank? Take that away and you'll slowly start noticing less and less people ranked in the 20s.

#20
Captainbuttocks said on February 17, 2014 at 6:48 a.m.

@ 14 Doppelganger

Step 1: Set your xbox location to a random remote country.
Step 2: Have your bestie do the same.
Step 3: Look for a ranked match to find the same person over and over again.
Step 4: Disconnect for oodles and oodles of fun!
Step 5: Rinse and repeat

#21
KingKong said on February 17, 2014 at 8:06 a.m.

Yay! gotta love half-assed games programmed by monkeys

#22
jhayze said on February 17, 2014 at 10:14 a.m.

i gave away my brand new XB1 to my godson last december, so hence no console here and KI, questions though regarding the game...

have they fixed the ranked online matches by putting you on the right set rank against an opponent (ex. rank D vs D, not rank D vs A) ?

is the jail system still glitchy and buggy sending the wrong players to jail?

as much as i hate rage quitters, i hate laggy connections more than that, so how is the netplay in this game?

...planing to buy a brand new XB1 and Wii-U this weekend, and this is the only game so far im looking forward to play from the console,(btw also got a PS4 already no fanboyism here), thanks in advance!

#23
HmpLghtng said on February 17, 2014 at 12:44 p.m.

Well said King Kong.

#24
FlynnChop said on February 17, 2014 at 2:21 p.m.

Difference:

When Killer Instinct had no locks or keys...
They had exactly 18.73 billion rage-quitters.

...

Of course, now everyone's in jail and people are getting random losses for no good reason.

#25
FlynnChop said on February 17, 2014 at 2:26 p.m.

1) No. They tried that, and it ended up matching people against the same player 5+ times in a row. That has since been reverted.

2) Yes. The jail system has not yet been fixed or reverted.

3) I'm going to be totally serious here... KI has the best GD netcode I've ever seen in any fighting game ever. Seriously. If you have a half-way decent connection with someone, you feel/see literally NO LAG AT ALL.

It's pretty amazing. This is by far KI's greatest achievement. We're all hoping this will serve as a model for fighting games in the future. SFxT used the rollback and it was one of the best things, but KI using it is amazing.

#26
Amerika said on February 17, 2014 at 3:30 p.m.

What I don't understand is why can't they keep the connection alive when somebody disconnects? If you drop from Ghosts or BF4 the server doesn't die...so why does a KI match? If somebody drops connection all they have to do is see who is still there and not instantly cancel the game session. I'm sure that peer2peer has something to do with it but previous MP games were also p2p and handled host drops without issue and if the "host" of the KI session drops it should migrate to the other person.

It's almost as if all fighting game designers are always dropping the session when they should design it, from the ground up, with a way to identify things like this. And it's truly odd that they didn't think of this when designing KI because it's a new game on a new engine that was designed from the ground up. Perhaps it has something to do with the type of matchmaking system that MS has?

#27
TheTHCGamer said on February 17, 2014 at 5:41 p.m.

Your right would've been better if it was made by gorillas.

#28
FlynnChop said on February 17, 2014 at 6:12 p.m.

Those games absolutely cannot tell who rage-quit either.

All games with punishment systems rely on unusually high numbers of disconnects to decide who the rage-quitter actually is.

Harada set Tekken's to like 200 disconnects or something insane. Presumably SFxT and Marvel are somewhere lower than that. KI's is just set way too low or something.

#29
FlynnChop said on February 17, 2014 at 6:19 p.m.

The problem is that there isn't an independent "server" or "host" in a 1v1 game. The players are connected to one-another. When one drops, neither player is connected to the other, so how do you tell which one dropped?

Both players can still be online and the connection between the two players was bad (long distance or something) and they lost connection with eachother.

So yeah. There's no way to tell unless you set the game up so that both players connect to a 3rd party host. Then they could tell who lost connection with that host or server. Problem is, where's the host? How do you ensure that people around the world can connect to them?

If either player serves as the host, that's the guy who won't be punished if the two players lose connection. That isn't fair either, obviously, because the other person may not have lost connection on purpose.

It's a more complicated issue than you realize.

#30
Amerika said on February 17, 2014 at 9:15 p.m.

If the game is built from the ground up to always keep a server session up (like all shooters) then this problem is avoided entirely. I can guess as to what the issue is but my question is why hasn't it been done differently?

You told me nothing I already didn't state and I believe I am pretty well versed in this area as part of what I do for a living covers it.

All XB1 titles should be using dedicated "servers" essentially that run these matches as opposed to p2p connections because, well, that was MS's big thing. But even if they are P2P there is no reason why the session can't be hosted by somebody and if the link goes down be migrated to the person who is still around which would then identify who disconnected/rage quit/etc. But right now it appears that sessions instantly terminate with 0 information built in to determine who disconnected and nothing reporting back to a central server or a host that is still active reporting back. Of course, with that, there is security issues that could come into play but that's a different topic.

#31
BucketheadZ06 said on February 18, 2014 at 1:19 p.m.

This needs to be fixed ASAP. I finally got my fightstick, played last night as a rank 1, got jailed because someone rage quit on me... in jail, I played a number of people ranked 20, 24, 15 and 9, all of which quit on me. TastetheRambo, I saw your inputs you mashing scrub. Let it be known he's one of those who quits to keep his rank going up. So many scrubby players taking advantage of this it's sad. Meanwhile people like me beating these high rank scrubs fair and square aren't moving up the ranks because these scrubs keep quitting.

#32
FlynnChop said on February 18, 2014 at 4:18 p.m.

Right, if the game is built from the ground up to run dedicated servers everything works out perfectly. I mean, servers are free right? And I'm sure lag wouldn't be an issue. It's not like 1/60th of a second matters in a fighting game or anything... I'm sure it'll be fine.

No, you're right. The reason no fighting game developer has ever thought of this in the past 10 years or so of online fighters is because all developers just... hadn't thought of it!

You should take your awesome, epic ideas to the devs themselves. I'm sure they've never even considered it! You'll revolutionize fighting games forever.

Developers for various games have said in the past that there is no way for them to tell who disconnects.

You and the rest of the internet can ask devs "why u so stupid?" all day and night if it makes you feel better. If you're so tired of idiots making games, maybe you, the genius, should lead a dev team of your own! I support that endeavor.

#33


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