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Ayano: Dragon Punches being -5 on block after an FADC isn't final in Ultra Street Fighter 4, Red Focus was altered for offensive purposes

Posted by Jonathan 'Catalyst' Grey • February 2, 2014 at 12:48 p.m. PST

One of the most notable changes in the latest build of Ultra Street Fighter 4 was that characters who performed a Dragon Punch/Kick and followed up with a Focus Attack Dash Cancel (FADC) would universally be -5 on block.

Capcom's Tomoaki Ayano was asked about this change in a recent interview with 4Gamer, seeing if this alteration would be in the final release. Ayano stated he wasn't sure.

"Of course, it's a location test, so we don't know what will end up happening in the final version," he said.

Instead, Capcom is seeking out player thoughts on the matter to help them figure out if the change should stick around, as they think opinions vary depending on which member of the roster gamers select.

"I'd like to get as many opinions as possible to help me decide," said Ayano. "I think impressions will differ a lot depending on what character the player is using."

Ayano was also asked about the change to Red Focus, you can find that response after the jump.

One of the other notable changes was that EX Red Focus only costs 3 bars of meter now, where it had previously cost 4 bars to cancel out of a move in this manner.

"At our previous location tests, we got a lot of opinions that it was hard to use in a battle, and we wanted people to be able to use it more offensively," said Ayano. He also mentioned that they had the same methodology with another new mechanic, the Double Ultra.

"We used the same approach for Ultra Combo Double, where we've balanced the percentage damage on a character-by-character basis, this time."

Contributions to this story by MajinTenshinhan, via 4Gamer. Artwork by Edgar Gomez. Tip from Fawaz.

Comments

DannyBoyPERU said on February 2, 2014 at 12:49 p.m.

-5 on block is perfect, no more spamming !

#1
Eternal said on February 2, 2014 at 12:50 p.m.

1/3rd of the cast hasn't been changed since Capcom Cup. I really hope that they do some major changes before final.

#2
ain said on February 2, 2014 at 12:58 p.m.

2 meters shouldn't be a get out of jail card.

#3
Zanomaru said on February 2, 2014 at 12:59 p.m.

-3 or 4 is enough.

#4
Sage_Liebert said on February 2, 2014 at 12:59 p.m.

What is the current frames on a forward DP FADC?

Changing red focus to 3 bars is the best and should stay. This is probably why the percentage was so high on those player responses in this weekends japan LocTest. Grapplers will be a lot more scary with red focus not to mention all characters.

#5
Jaaj301 said on February 2, 2014 at 1 p.m.

If there's no need, why? I'd rather have little tweaks that actually balance the game instead of changing things just for the sake of it

#6
CRUZ said on February 2, 2014 at 1:04 p.m.

Rip shotos.

#7
Xykes said on February 2, 2014 at 1:11 p.m.

-5 on blocked DP > FADC is the best change I've heard in years.

No more randomly fishing for safe DP > ultra for 400 damage.

Also, there's still the option of DP + FADC backdash.
Or, DP > FA (no cancel) > then dash after FA is blocked.

But, the threat of random DP > FACD > Ultra has been eliminated. If you want to get that ultra damage, you have to hit confirm, or get punished...y'know, like pretty much everyone else in the game.

Proper risk/reward has been restored.

#8
Ex3cut3r said on February 2, 2014 at 1:15 p.m.

No please leave it -5 on block, it's the best decision ever made.

#9
Existent said on February 2, 2014 at 1:18 p.m.

It should stay. Defensive options are already improved with slow wakeups. This needs to stay to help balance it out.

#10
Count said on February 2, 2014 at 1:19 p.m.

-5 on FADC forward is a great change.. no more random DP > FADC > Is he gonna grab or DP again? This makes sense.

#11
Sage_Liebert said on February 2, 2014 at 1:19 p.m.

So, no more DP FADC EX DP to chip out your opponent?

#12
Xykes said on February 2, 2014 at 1:19 p.m.

No. Every character in the game should be able to reasonably punish it on reaction.

Remember, not everyone in the game has a 3 frame move (other than regular throw).

#13
Ark_8 said on February 2, 2014 at 1:20 p.m.

- 5 is SO TASTY DONT TAKE IT AWAY.

#14
ROSHINOBI said on February 2, 2014 at 1:25 p.m.

Finally Adon shall rule the shotos...hehehehe...King is back...but I guess shotos gone use that delay wake up as they new spam...RIP Online Shoto Warriors...shots out to Low Tier God...god has answered your prayers bro..lol

#15
Baby_Astaroth said on February 2, 2014 at 1:28 p.m.

I don't have problem dealing with blocking and reacting to DP>FADC now. So of course I am not going to complain about it being -5.

#16
Jason said on February 2, 2014 at 1:29 p.m.

2 Meters for 'gtf off me' is fine.

2 Meters for 'gtf off me AND frame advantage and offensive pressure' is too much. I support this change. You can still backdash safely after an FADC.

#17
LittleScumbag said on February 2, 2014 at 1:29 p.m.
(This comment was hidden because it was down voted. You can view it by clicking here.)

Really bro ??? ;)
ppl acting as if DP-FADC doesnt cost you anything... we spend 2 metters to get out of jail

#18
Baby_Astaroth said on February 2, 2014 at 1:29 p.m.

I don't think they have frame advantage.

#19
FlynnChop said on February 2, 2014 at 1:38 p.m.

Define spamming.

This free DP costs 2 bars, after all. How often do people get the chance? Twice per round at best?

I don't think that fits any definition of "spamming" I've ever heard.

#20
nebbiez said on February 2, 2014 at 1:45 p.m.

I will repost from SRK Guy forum my thoughts on the matter:

I think that DP > FADC being -5 is really going to help balance the game. I know everyone who plays characters that have always had that option as a safe way to wakeup or get out of pressure are going to cry about it. But then again, it doesn't mention EX versions so I guess if they want to blow 3 bars on EX DP > FADC, they can still do that. But it definitely goes some way to addressing the issue with characters like Guy who have never had the option to FADC their DP reversal move.

Being -5 means there's opportunity to do a high/max damage combo to punish it for most characters in the game. It will force shotos etc. to think more about their defensive options instead of knowing they can rely on DP > FADC to escape relatively for free (at the cost of 2 bars)

The number of times you would see Ryu, Ken, Sagat, Akuma, Seth, etc. getting away with DP (blocked) > FADC forward dash > DP. Especially Seth who also has a command grab to consider and can OS punish any character's back dash with Hundred Kicks. All he needed was 2 bars to setup a rock/paper/scissors guessing game. This change is going to seriously level the playing field between these characters and the rest of the cast, and make it a much more thoughtful game. No more braindead FADCs in either offensive or defensive situations. I like this a lot! :)

#21
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 1:45 p.m.

If they want players to use red focus at all they need to increase meter build all around.

#22
cliffeside said on February 2, 2014 at 1:45 p.m.

currently DP fadc forwards is -2 for a majority of the cast and -1 for akuma and... (i forgot the other character. i think it was fei).

guys... -5 isn't gonna save you from getting DP fadc ultra'd or even deter most people from doing it. all it'll do is add another layer of risk and force opponents to either commit if they want the extra damage opportunity or find an alternative if they're only looking to escape. there's still DP ex FA lv1 (which is a frame trap if timed correctly)so don't be so quick to start mashing jab just yet.

(edit: also it only applies to non EX DPs so if the characters this effects still want that safety, they can burn the extra meter. most characters have to burn 3 bars for guaranteed safety so i appreciate capcom trying to balance this out.)

i hope this change stays just for the added layer of mind games and risk vs reward it presents.

#23
Atax1s said on February 2, 2014 at 1:45 p.m.

It's -2 as it is right now so it isn't frame advantage. It costs 2 bars and is far less a problem than rog being -1 on dash straight with a 3 frame jab that he can option select a sweep with. Have fun with that. While I don't think the change is bad, the way it is right now isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Stop pressing buttons people.

#24
Mark_Bruder said on February 2, 2014 at 1:56 p.m.

Learn how to block.

#25
Mark_Bruder said on February 2, 2014 at 1:59 p.m.

This makes no sense. Good players wait the second DP or tech the grab. If a shoto need to stop some insane presure, he uses the DP + FADC. This costs 2 bars and the only thing the opponent needs to do is wait a second DP or tech a freakin' grab.

#26
Xykes said on February 2, 2014 at 2:05 p.m.

"Stop pressing buttons"

So...the solution is to stop pressing buttons when characters with DP's have 2 bars...which happens very often.

Lol, okay.

#27
ibukkeke said on February 2, 2014 at 2:08 p.m.

dps -5 on block = best change ever

#28
Pinky said on February 2, 2014 at 2:09 p.m.

I 100% agree with this. I agree that every character listed (except Seth) with the -5 on blocked DP FADC should keep this nerf.

In my opinion, every character EXCEPT for Seth, Dan, Sakura, Guile, Yang, and Dudley should get their DP FADC advantage nerfed. Let me just say, why is it that I have to go through your fireballs, have amazing guesses against your reads, follow your strategy intelligently, and be able to close in on you after going through hell, only to have my face full of a DP and getting FADC'ed into an Ultra to lose the game, OR if I guess correctly and should be rewarded by blocking your DP, you FADC and now can give me another mixup and make me guess AGAIN on what to do.

When I fight and am winning by a few health meters against a Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Fei, Adon, Sagat, Cammy, Oni, or E. Ryu, once I see that 2 meters and even more see that full Ultra, I have alot more to risk against because one DP FADC can mean me losing or winning the game.

The reason I believe that Seth, Dudley, Dan, Guile, Yang etc. should NOT be effected by this is because they either have low health, almost a limited amount to combo, low damage, or have to rely heavily on guessing.

Keep this change. It will make matches alot more interesting when the risk and reward are equally fit.

#29
Xykes said on February 2, 2014 at 2:10 p.m.

I know how to block.

I play characters that don't have DPs.

#30
Shalaska said on February 2, 2014 at 2:10 p.m.

Ryu players are mad, haha.

#31
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 2:12 p.m.

and this is why you're ok with the change. YOU benefit from it. Not the game overall.

#32
Green016 said on February 2, 2014 at 2:13 p.m.

The game would be better if you COULDN'T fadc dp's at all but -5 is better than nothing. Of course this won't stick and will be changed. Too many whining shoto players will complain guaranteed.

#33
pants4ever said on February 2, 2014 at 2:17 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#34
Grevier said on February 2, 2014 at 2:20 p.m.

Practically after a DP FADC another guy can Shoryuken you in the face since it's 3 Frame.

Sho FADC being punished by Shoryuken... ironic...

#35
Xykes said on February 2, 2014 at 2:20 p.m.

Um, only about 11 characters in a roster of 40+ have Reversal > FADC.
(And, "coincidentally" many characters who have historically been top tier in this game are on that list. Ryu, Sagat, Akuma, Cammy, Fei Long, Seth)

So, the number of characters who stand to benefit from this -5 change outnumbers the number of characters who don't.

It sounds more like YOU'RE the selfish one, not me.

#36
Pinky said on February 2, 2014 at 2:21 p.m.

"We spend 2 metters to get out of jail"

Wrong. You spend 2 meters to either get out of jail backdashing, comboing to Ultra, comboing to a juggling normal, comboing close to mixup with throw, dash, 2nd DP, fast normal combos, etc.

Now it's a TRUE get out of jail instead of a Super high reward/low risk move, and it should be that way.

#37
Jaaj301 said on February 2, 2014 at 2:23 p.m.

If you stop pressing buttons you get grabbed though. It's a pure 50/50, considering the opponent's dp will most likely beat yours because he's at a disadvantage, hence his invincibility overlaps yours.

And that's from an invincible move which also leads to ultra on hit. If there has ever been something "cheap" in this game, I think this is it. I really like this change and hope it stays

#38
Oculus_Orbis said on February 2, 2014 at 2:28 p.m.

Personally, I think -5 is a bit much. Especially considering the defender will already have plenty of time to react considering the this includes the dash itself. It's also a drastic change from what we have now. Sure, not every character has a 3f, or even 4f special, but everyone has a 3f-4f normal. Between the two -in every character's case- it could lead to a combo, a grab(leading to setups), or at the very least, a change in momentum. I like the idea of a universal (dis)advantage however, but imo, -4 would give plenty of time for a huge punish, on a tiny mistake.

#39
OhYouDontSayThat said on February 2, 2014 at 2:28 p.m.

I would support this but... I do this all the time so BOOOOO!

#40
ExcellentYong said on February 2, 2014 at 2:28 p.m.

Unless you're Cammy (or whoever that can fadc back ultra)

#41
Pinky said on February 2, 2014 at 2:30 p.m.

Characters like Sagat, Cammy, and Yun/Yang(?) have a 5 frame DP. -5 should stay in fairness of them reacting.

#42
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 2:32 p.m.

I don't play any of those characters. Try again. BTW If you counted C.Viper as a character that can do it, she still can and is +1.

Also those 11 characters are 25% of the game. There are characters that don't have a FADC DP that have great Ultras, excellent Backdashes, great standing normals or other shenanginans. Like Rufus and Ibuki. Should they be nerfed to benefit the rest of the cast? Seems very backwards if you want people to play the game.

#43
perfume said on February 2, 2014 at 2:33 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#44
Mark_Bruder said on February 2, 2014 at 2:34 p.m.

So you're really impatient.
Players like you "eat" lots of DPs because of that.
And I reply: Learn how to block.

Edit: Don't get mad. I'm only expressing my opinion.

#45
Ruuku said on February 2, 2014 at 2:36 p.m.

Give everyone a DP! #Kappa

#46
Xykes said on February 2, 2014 at 2:36 p.m.

Viper can't land ultra on it unless you're in the corner, or unless the opponent jumped.

Also, if I recall, the start up is 8 frames. No where near the same league as a 3 frame/5 frame reversal.

#47
Jaaj301 said on February 2, 2014 at 2:37 p.m.

Remember though that it's still possible to make it safe. You can release the FA and dash forward, or FADC back. This change only forces you to choose between safety and reward, as opposed to now where you get both regardless.

#48
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 2:38 p.m.

spoken with some evidence

#49
Chi_Shinobi said on February 2, 2014 at 2:41 p.m.

They can react with a faster move. I have no problem with -5, but they don't have to raw Dp back.

#50
Xykes said on February 2, 2014 at 2:45 p.m.

Umm, I DON'T eat a lot of DPs. That's my point. I'm forced to restrain my offense considerably when the opponent gets 2 bars, because a 3 frame invincible reversal can happen at any moment...and it might lead to ultra. Risk/reward is completely out of whack. Other characters cannot impose such a crippling restriction on opponents JUST by getting 2 bars. It's stupid and unearned. As if getting 2 bars is THAT difficult of a task. It's not.

Is safe DP > FADC unbeatable? No.

Is it stupid? Yes.

Judging by the comments, most people agree.

#51
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 2:46 p.m.

C.Viper would not fall into that bracket because she would need the +1 after her HP/TK b/c she has not 3 frame normals to rely on. If anything she should only gain the Nerf of Not being Instantly Airborn on Burn Kick as a Free Escape tool. Also of the characters you did name they have many of the things but others in the Cast Like Guy do not, Difficult or Weak Ultra's Mediocre Standing normals Multi unsafe tactics & Can't FADC his REV. which his needs Meter to even Use Unlike Rufus and Ibuki. and buffing someone like him too Heavy to compensate for the slight nerf of a great tactic could obliterate other lower tier Match ups like Guy/Sim or Guy/Makoto. so It is within reason

#52
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 2:48 p.m.

it is unfair to a Majority of the Cast I agree. Especially when a Ryu/Akuma has a Makoto/Rose Cornered. Am I Right

#53
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 2:51 p.m.

It's character design. Guy also has a better high/low mix up game than a lot of the cast. Does that mean Guy should get nerfed because the rest of the cast don't have a high/low mix up game? His reversal also hits on both sides. DPs only hit on one. They should nerf Guy's reversal.. see how stupid the argument sounds when people start comparing characters.

#54
logitech2059 said on February 2, 2014 at 2:51 p.m.

This change is stupid and only helps defensive characters/players. IMO delayed wake up was enough to help defensive characters. This change is way too much! characters who don't have a shoryu fadc move usually make up for it with a different move such as Hondas Ex headbut which has invincibility and is generally safe on block. Charge characters usually also have better poking tools and special moves you can spam which are safe on block (Bison's scissor Kick). Ofourse shotos need a move which can help deal with this kind of pressure, and its not free, it costs 2 bars and when you dash forward you are usually at -2. Shotos have had this move since vanilla and as far as i remember they were never broken. Their was a version of street fighter i think it was Super when charge characters were top tier and from what i remember EVERYBODY WAS COMPLAINING. Ultra turtle fighter 4 at this rate is going to be the same thing.

#55
EndlessWitch said on February 2, 2014 at 2:52 p.m.

Such a good change. As long as it's something between -3 to -5 I'm happy.

#56
Chi_Shinobi said on February 2, 2014 at 2:53 p.m.

Seth has a command grab so him doing dp FADC is worse since you can't tech his command grab. You really have to guess against him so he needs the nerf. Yang is already at -5. Dudley's and Sakura's doesn't have invincibility so they are ok. Guile needs to charge his reversal so he's ok. Dan's ok too.

#57
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 2:54 p.m.

Sagat how so? I am Positive that his BackDash after an FADC is -10 or Higher so Him falling into the bunch is quite questionable and I don't even like him that Much but do see a possible error

#58
Zanomaru said on February 2, 2014 at 2:56 p.m.

That's why i said -3 or -4 ;)

Besides it's not a big nerf. Just have to confirm focus with a fwd or backdash after a DP.

#59
A4headedninja said on February 2, 2014 at 2:56 p.m.

As ppl have stated i'ts -2 at the moment and it cost 2 bars. the game is balanced will be balanced in ultra. At least this is what we are all helping for when it releases. If this is the case then it'll will serve as an even bigger nerf than anticipated. The Current state of FADC shoryu should remain the same.

#60
Mike said on February 2, 2014 at 2:59 p.m.

A one frame, non-reversal punish? Try jab punishing Balrog players after blocked rush punches. -5 is fine. That way every character has at least a two-frame punish.

#61
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 2:59 p.m.

Should be -3 at most. Every character has a throw and can punish with that. As is it a majority of those characters that can FADC a reversal do not have a very good back dash. Shotos specifically.

"Charge characters usually also have better poking tools and special moves you can spam which are safe on block"

People don't think about that. They want every match up that's bad for them nerfed because currently there has to be something to blame a loss on.

#62
liamdmc said on February 2, 2014 at 3 p.m.

ok i get lots of people here are bitter about shotos shoryuken but heres the thing. 1) you can play them too. 2) everyone is taking this as fair as if its the only change to ssf4ae 2012 edition. however it wont be.it will be ultra with the added nerf already to the fact most shotos cannot hit confirm their shoryukens. they have to fadc first hit. its going to guarantee damage to the opponents who simply block. grounded get up shoryuken have to fadc first hit dash forward for ultra oh crap he blocked damage. its stupid. one or the other but not both. there are too many things breaking shotos. seth will be unplayable with his nerfs. he isnt a vortex character but a 50/50. and if he cant push that situation with meter ( which is too aid) to a 60/40 then why bother.
problems with seth in ultra-
fadc first hit, negative on block fadc, less stun, less damage with crossover mk, crouching hp wont link from j.mk so average combo of 250 damage with meter. set ups are too hard to get into without cr.hp options. cant fadc into crhp so canonly use as a punish. cant use tandem as footsies. has no footsies. doesnt benefit from ultra double. ultra 1 will do 225 damage with it. a joke. and not to mention everyone else is getting better. and red focus will be crap with seth. grey health and 25% more damage from focus into armor breaker . 50% gone.

#63
Pinky said on February 2, 2014 at 3 p.m.

Except that in THIS version, the majority if not all of the characters that can DP FADC are top tiers. Half of them alone are in the top 5. And in order to balance this out without changing the characters too much was a universal change. Characters that not only DP FADC, but also can DP FADC into Ultra and do a TON of mixups after a forward DASH DP FADC are effected.

Notice that characters like Yang, Dudley, Dan etc. also have DP FADC but are not effected by the -5 because they are low tiers, and for good reason. Either low damage output or because their Ultras don't or have little damage off of DP FADC.

#64
Ruuku said on February 2, 2014 at 3 p.m.

Honda can't EX headbutt to get out of pressure AND FADC into a high damage combo though. Same deal with other charge characters.

#65
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3 p.m.

Actually No. Your wrong in every statement you just Made He has poor High Low Mix Up. He has only 1 reliable Low and Overhead. neither lead into and damage of 160 and Has extremely situational set ups that don't even work on most of the Cast. Also His REV. EX Tatsu should hit on Both Sides but it Doesn't and almost Every EX SRK - Oni's hits with the Back Shoulder. If anything your lack of Knowledge makes my statement more creditable by calling some of his weakness strengths in. My point was buffing up all of the lower characters to unseen amounts hurts more then a reliable nerf that will slightly help some Meta Game where it easily shows the effect early on

#66
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:02 p.m.

my point exactly

#67
Dude130 said on February 2, 2014 at 3:05 p.m.

Not all shoto players rely on shoryukens in battle.

#68
Chi_Shinobi said on February 2, 2014 at 3:05 p.m.

Keep it -5 as long as Dp FADC backdash is still safe. I like to save my meter anyway. Plus I had nothing but bad luck with Dp FADC. Either I got grabbed before my Dp comes out or hit before I could grab. I still get away with Yangs Dp FADC and his is already -5.

#69
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 3:06 p.m.

So Guy's high/low mix up game is worse than Ryu's? You're completely missing the point THAT HE HAS ONE. You have to guess whether to block high or low. I don't just spam buttons. I actually block.

Think of a shoto that Guy is 5-5 against.. Ken. Imagine he can no longer escape the corner or FADC his DP to pressure you. That's basically what this game is doing. The match is now in your favor instead of even. Enjoy.

#70
Mbison said on February 2, 2014 at 3:07 p.m.

i think its great an all but CAPCOM PLEASEEEEEE!!!!!! PLEASEEEEE!!!!!!! GIVE BISON HES SCISSOR pressure BACKKKK!!!! THANKS !!!!

#71
play_times_over1 said on February 2, 2014 at 3:10 p.m.

I'm totally fine with the change to -5 for FADCing a dp, but could it be tweeked a bit so that if you use ex red focus to FADC it would leave you at -2? Then if you commit to using 3 bars you get something extra and it gives another use to the EX red focus mechanic. Not sure if this would be possible, just throwing it out there

#72
r0my5 said on February 2, 2014 at 3:11 p.m.

Care to specify when you have to guess whether to block high or low against Guy? It's a known fact that one of Guy's biggest weaknesses is that you can just downback against his pressure. His overheads can be blocked on reaction

#73
Pinky said on February 2, 2014 at 3:14 p.m.

What I think they should do is for NORMAL FADC to be -5 on block but for EX red focus to have similar properties of -2 that they have now. Problem solved, and extra meter for extra reward is saved.

#74
Oculus_Orbis said on February 2, 2014 at 3:14 p.m.

Precisely. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the universal (dis)advantage. I just think 5f is a fairly large window for a punish. I believe every character can benefit from a 4f window. 4f imo, is a good Goldilocks range.

#75
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:15 p.m.

I honestly respect the though but before you Judge it keep in mind of the
Ken Vs Makoto: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ Makoto Backthrows(140) Into a Set Up

Ken Vs Ryu: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ (#1)Ryu Backthrows(140) Into a Set Up

Ken Vs Ryu: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ (#2)Ryu Cr.LP/Cr.HP-SRK-FADC-Ultra

Realistically with Prime Exe/Knowledge in a Tournament Match the better Option is Clearly the More Damaging one and even with -5 Ryu will always have a better Punish option but @Least Makoto can go for a More Damaging option other than throws. this is all I am pointing out

does any1 not get this?

#76
GodPride said on February 2, 2014 at 3:16 p.m.

As a Vega player, I'm not complaining. But I do think certain characters should still be relatively safe after a blocked FADC and still pressure.

#77
r0my5 said on February 2, 2014 at 3:16 p.m.

Seriously DP FADC (into ultra) is balanced because it costs 2 bars? Many characters in the cast have a reversal that isn't 3 frames, that requires 1 bar and that can't be FADC'd. Unsurprisingly these characters are mostly considered low tier

#78
maxi2099 said on February 2, 2014 at 3:18 p.m.

Someone should ask him why they removed Ex-Green Hand knockdown and keep all of Zangief nerfs. Wasn't it his "ultimate weapon" on this version that justifies all of the ridiculous nerfs?

#79
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 3:19 p.m.

His rush down needs work yes. But he actually has it. It's his character type. Just like the DP is the shoto character type. AGAIN I said characters should not be nerfed because another character doesn't have something.

It's like me saying. They should nerf Guy's wake up reversal EX tatsu. I can't do that with Cody/Vega to defend myself on wake up.. See what I am talking about now? If they keep nerfing stuff the game becomes slower and boring.

#80
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:19 p.m.

Also It is not even every match against a Shoto is in the Shoto's Favor, also it is not just about Guy others benefit from it as well

#81
nebbiez said on February 2, 2014 at 3:20 p.m.

On which planet is the Guy-Ken matchup 5-5? You really need to talk to players like NGL|Chris and Marq Teddy who have extensive knowledge of this matchup. It is at least 6.5-3.5 in Ken's favour. All shotos beat Guy.

#82
GodPride said on February 2, 2014 at 3:20 p.m.

At -3 only shotos would be able to punish.

#83
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 3:23 p.m.

Throws start up in 3 frames. Every character has one of those.

#84
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:24 p.m.

Slower is Debatable, but the Boring is Bias. having the defending character having a actual fighting chance is boring??? this is purely a situational instance

#85
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:26 p.m.

honestly respect the though but before you Judge it keep in mind of the these are still 3 frames and a shoto would have to nor would Dud/Balrog?

Ken Vs Makoto: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ Makoto Backthrows(140) Into a Set Up

Ken Vs Ryu: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ (#1)Ryu Backthrows(140) Into a Set Up

Ken Vs Ryu: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ (#2)Ryu Cr.LP/Cr.HP-SRK-FADC-Ultra

#86
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:27 p.m.

Nebbiez stop telling him the Truth lol

#87
unseenpotential01 said on February 2, 2014 at 3:29 p.m.

Lets just say a DP starts up in 3 frames.(which most do...)

u r safe on frame 0 (when ur doing nothing or blocking)

anything -3 or more is a free punish from anything as fast as a DP... or slower. It depends.

so if u have a move 5 frames (like ryu's sweep.) then yeah, its very punishable.

#88
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:32 p.m.

Ok. So GodPride Please tell me you comprehend this

this is it at Minus 3 after a [SRK-FADC-Foward] keep in mind of the the lower cast

Ken Vs Makoto: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ Makoto Backthrows(140) Into a Set Up

Ken Vs Vega: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ Vega Backthrows(140) Into a Set Up

Ken Vs Ryu: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ (#1)Ryu Backthrows(140) Into a Set Up

Ken Vs Ryu: Ken Does SRK-FADC-Foward/ (#2)Ryu Cr.LP/Cr.HP-SRK-FADC-Ultra for 300+

At Least at Minus 5 Vega can chain 2 LP,MP EX FBA? if it is only 3 it isn't universally fair? I think he is just overlooking this ?

#89
GodPride said on February 2, 2014 at 3:33 p.m.

If a character's only option is to throw couldn't you just tech it?

#90
Shinebox said on February 2, 2014 at 3:34 p.m.

fair enough but it's not 6.5-3.5 unless you honestly think Ken beats Guy worse than Akuma does.

AGAIN I will repeat. I said characters should not be nerfed because another character doesn't have something.

It's like me saying. They should nerf Guy's wake up reversal EX tatsu. I can't do that with Cody/Vega to defend myself on wake up.. See what I am talking about now? If they keep nerfing stuff the game becomes slower and boring.

I don't play Guy or Ken and I stopped using characters with DPs awhile back now. I don't want them making drastic system changes that will slow down the game.

#91
seph13 said on February 2, 2014 at 3:34 p.m.

Dumb change. They did similar crap in the sfxtek 2013 update and it literally made all shoto type characters useless at a high level. I'll accept a dp fadc nerf when they get rid of all the other characters new age special moves and focus moves that go straight through fireballs. You guys want old school dps that are pure risk than I want you to get rid of your new school go straight through fireball moves.

#92
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:35 p.m.

no you wouldn't be able to tech it

#93
Oculus_Orbis said on February 2, 2014 at 3:40 p.m.

Fair enough. It slipped my mind when I posted earlier, that it's the 4th frame where a 3f attack becomes active. I mean personally, I don't have TOO much trouble punishing blocked rush punches(maybe 80% success online, lag permitting). Though, I suppose an extra frame couldn't hurt, lol.
Good example, btw.

#94
MANDINGO said on February 2, 2014 at 3:46 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#95
IMainDanHibiki said on February 2, 2014 at 3:48 p.m.

Shotos and Grapplers and anyone with a grab... which is everyone.

Most characters would benefit off of -3 still due to how many of them give setups after the fact.

#96
MANDINGO said on February 2, 2014 at 3:49 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#97
Pinky said on February 2, 2014 at 3:51 p.m.

Once again... this is only for FORWARD DASH DP FADC ON BLOCK! If you hit confirm DP FADC you're at an advantage. If you Back Dash FADC from a blocked DP you are safe (Variably). This means you have to play smart instead of mashing DP and either going through a mixup/ 2nd DP on block or combo the DP FADC into Ultra.

People with scrubby Ryus will still stick with Ryu no matter what, as well as other characters. Nothing will change except maybe smarter play.

#98
MANDINGO said on February 2, 2014 at 3:52 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#99
Keetro said on February 2, 2014 at 3:57 p.m.

Just to Be Clear?
Everyone does know that even at -5 it will be still a 1frame for Abel??? there are characters with no reliable 4 frame atks. Not Every has Godlike Execution. I don't even play him and I realize that his Crouching Light are 5 frames Start up and Lead into no combo's. there are others in here that know that right

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