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Air: Evil Ryu's cr.MK into Fireball is the very reason why Guile, Vega, and Dhalsim are bad match-ups, Ryu a 'harder match-up'

Posted by Cheng Kai 'KarbyP' Sim • August 2, 2014 at 9:53 a.m. PDT

Last month, in an interview with Arcadia magazine MCZ|Daigo had said that although Evil Ryu is a high-tier character in Ultra Street Fighter 4, he does have a number of bad match-ups against lower-tier characters. Namely, Guile, Dhalsim and Vega.

Canada Cup Gaming's Air has been thinking about Daigo's comments on Evil Ryu, and in a blog entry published this week, he says that he agrees with the analysis. He also said that he would consider Ryu a "harder match-up".

"Evil Ryu is no doubt one of the best character in USF4 due to his damage output with one of the best crouching medium kick in the game," CCG|Air writes.

"But why are they bad match ups? Let me explain. Basically, Evil Ryu’s main strength became his weakness in the listed match ups.

"Since Evil Ryu’s fireball is -7 on block, and his cr.mk into fireball is a true poke string which is good in general because of guaranteed chip damage, but in the listed match ups, it is not an advantage in those match ups because it is punishable on block any where in the screen unless you space it perfectly at the max distance.

"The flaw with his cr.mk > fireball is that with cr.mk you cannot NOT inch forward when you perform the kick and that what makes it a true poke string. On top of that, if you want to make it as a true poke string, you have to commit into the fireball right when you press cr.mk, and that’s all where the damage comes from of Evil Ryu."

- Guile can HK Flash Kick or Super can punish Evil Ryu’s cr.mk >fireball on block unless stated above (Max distance)
- Vega can punish and combo with his cr.mp
- Dhalsim can punish with back St.mk
- Ryu can sweep and Super.

CCG|Air goes on to mention that even back when MCZ|Daigo was still maining Ryu during the early days of Ultra Street Fighter 4, when it had just come out in Japanese arcades, the way that The Beast approached the Ryu vs. Evil Ryu match-up was to purposely put himself (as Ryu) into the corner so that he could punish Evil Ryu's cr.MK into fireball string on block. This was something that MCZ|Tokido shared with him back in May during Northwest Majors IV.

Air's blog post goes on quite a bit longer to cover Ryu's advantages over Evil Ryu. Check out the rest of it at his blog here.

Source: CCG|Air. Sent in by RyuApprentice.

Image credit: xxXPrince-AsuraXxx, CCG|Air

Comments

PGHTJ said on August 2, 2014 at 10:01 a.m.

I think Chun Li should be added to this list. In the corner she can punish Evil Ryu's cr.mk > fireball string on block with ex legs or super.

#1
meltsy said on August 2, 2014 at 10:08 a.m.

I think the point is that these other characters can punish it without expending any resources.

#2
Refrigerator said on August 2, 2014 at 10:35 a.m.

Gouken can EX Tatsu, sweep and super to punish cr.mk xx fireball too, but everyone is still sleeping on him.

#3
MaysTheCraze said on August 2, 2014 at 10:36 a.m.

-7? What the hell? And I complain about Poison's rekkas getting blocked...

#4
Ralenzo said on August 2, 2014 at 10:48 a.m.

Hidden nerf ?
It used to be -6 in 2012, just like Ryu's fireball.

#5
Yisandra said on August 2, 2014 at 11 a.m.

That's what I thought

#6
SirKenjamin said on August 2, 2014 at 11:17 a.m.

Dun dun dunnn

#7
YorKeY said on August 2, 2014 at 11:17 a.m.

Now learn from this and spread the word to other cry babies lost in the world.

#8
Boris_17z said on August 2, 2014 at 11:27 a.m.

Vega does need an EX bar to fully punish a blocked fireball (cr.mp > EX FBA)

#9
Fallenrose777 said on August 2, 2014 at 11:30 a.m.

evil ryu's mk is the main reason i use ryu and not evil ryu. for those footsie heavy or defensive characters.rose,vega,guile,chun li etc. i hate using evil ryu and having to deal with that.

#10
Ralenzo said on August 2, 2014 at 11:37 a.m.

So I tested this out and Eryu his fireball is -7, not -6. Couldn't reversal punish it with Viper her DP and that's 7f startup.

Whenever Eryu does his cr.MK x fireball in his cr.MP range(midscreen) it can get punished by Guile's HK FK (as a reversal only). If done outside his cr.MP range (not max MK range) he is safe.
Visually seeing the difference is honestly not that easy, and we're talking about an 80 damage punish here. Miscalculate and the FK will whiff resulting in a pretty big punish on Guile's part. Sure Eryu CAN get punished but the risk reward is still heavily in Eryu's favor.

It's a different story in the corner tho. In the corner Eryu has to max space his cr.MK if he doesn't want to get punished and eat 140 damage (HK FK fully connects in the corner).

#11
Chi_Shinobi said on August 2, 2014 at 11:49 a.m.

"LK Axe Kick is not a true poke string, therefore he has no safe chip" Also Lk Axe Kick is -7 on block so it doesn't matter if it was true poke string.

#12
Shinebox said on August 2, 2014 at 12:03 p.m.

Her ultra 1 is a 7f start up. So is Cody and Ken's U2.

#13
SpiderUppercut said on August 2, 2014 at 12:04 p.m.

"First I think Ryu has a better fireball game and it forces Evil Ryu to get in close in order to win. Yet, Evil Ryu has a slower sweep and cr.mk to play the footsies game, therefore, whenever Evil Ryu gets close to Ryu’s low forward range, you shall not hesitate to spam Ryu’s cr.mk because it is hard for Evil Ryu to punish it on whiff."

Thats why Evil Ryu has the command hop kick?
The hitboxes (and hurtboxes) have been specifically crafted to be the natural enemy of Ryu crouching forward?
Can hit confirm it into an EX Tatsu?
Also, Evil Ryus crouching medium kick has better hitboxes that Ryus as well. It behaves like Ryu's used to before it got nerfed.

I'll give you an A for effort Air. Trying to make us believe USF4 is legitimate. :)

#14
Ralenzo said on August 2, 2014 at 12:06 p.m.

I meant to say it's -6 not -7

#15
TheAlmightyVox said on August 2, 2014 at 12:22 p.m.

How 'bout you just go back to whining about the -5 DP FADC nerfs and stop acting like a prick.

#16
SrAbuguet said on August 2, 2014 at 12:38 p.m.

I don't think Daigo is going to stay with E.Ryu for long, so many disadvantages

#17
ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on August 2, 2014 at 1:08 p.m.

I knew something was up when I kept getting hit out of cr mk and fireball. Especially against characters like Chun. You have to definitely be careful with it as it isn't guaranteed.

#18
Cascadian1106 said on August 2, 2014 at 2:50 p.m.

Chun is also good against E. Ryu definitely

#19
Vothsair said on August 2, 2014 at 3:44 p.m.

Sako owned Dagio in the E. Ryu vs Ryu matchup. This is not a bad matchup for E. Ryu. None of this theory even happened in Daigo vs John Choi. He got outplayed and dropped a lot of combos.

#20
Guwopamole said on August 2, 2014 at 4:02 p.m.

Vega isn't low tier either...

#21
soggytoast said on August 2, 2014 at 4:19 p.m.

The disadvantage of E.Ryu's c.mk is more subtle than what Air mentions here and is relevant in many more matchups than just these. The problem is not just that fireball is punishable on block.

E.Ryu's c.mk has forward movement during the startup frames (Ryu's does not), so if canceled it pushes you forward. This sometimes puts you at ranges that you don't want to be and overall gives you less control of your spacing during footsies.

Not to mention, the total frames of E.Ryu's c.mk is a lot more than Ryu's, so if they jumped at E.Ryu he ends up getting punished, whereas with Ryu you can just buffer DP and anti-air them instead.

Even with the buffs in Ultra to E.Ryu I still think that Ryu is a better character. The advantages of E.Ryu are very superficial - damage, range of pokes, etc. But when you consider the entire game, Ryu feels more powerful.

#22
julito427 said on August 2, 2014 at 5:28 p.m.

Air specifically mentions this in the blog. In fact, that's what the whole argument revolves around.

#23
UCLAplayer said on August 2, 2014 at 6:12 p.m.

That was in AE2012, when eryu had setups and reliable unblockables to help his game

#24
WongFactor said on August 2, 2014 at 8:20 p.m.

I don't remember Daigo facing Sako's Evil Ryu with Ryu. Last time they fought Daigo used Hugo and beat Sako. When they fought in Topanga Sako used Ibuki. Anyone got a link to this alleged Ryu vs E. Ryu match?

#25
Crash40 said on August 2, 2014 at 8:31 p.m.

I got to know... Its this accounting for the maximum range that c.mk into fireball is a true block sting? Cause I got a friend that likes to through out shoryukens after that, and I need to know if I can punish it with my far MP(My character is Bipson btw)

#26
diddykv said on August 2, 2014 at 9:17 p.m.

I'm pretty sure Sako E. Ryu vs. Daigo Ryu never happened. Last time they played at a tournament - Topanga A league - Sako used Ibuki.

#27
soggytoast said on August 2, 2014 at 9:35 p.m.

Um... punish the whiff shoryuken?

#28
koyomiwa said on August 2, 2014 at 9:57 p.m.

Air with the Papatiwawa Look !

#29
FrostyAU said on August 3, 2014 at 5:02 a.m.

Guile can also RSK or sobat kick over the low forward if you get predictable with it. Rose has the same tool with her st. MK.

#30
asadmonkey said on August 3, 2014 at 7:18 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#31
Snow2Drop said on August 3, 2014 at 7:18 a.m.

How long till this new beastgief account is banned. Eventhub come on

#32


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