Itabashi Zangief lists his bottom 10 characters in Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition v2012

Switch T.hawk with Deejay and I'd agree

@1 I was just going to say that.

I sometimes wish they would describe in what way they are worst. Is it because they are hard to use? Less options? Unsafe moves? Weaker Damage output? Low Health? ect.

Can anyone answer: What is it that makes Gouken a bottom character? It seems to me that he has many of the tools required to be good, but I swear this isn't the first time I've seen him listed among the bottom recently.

That said, I still agree with most of the list. Kind've surprised either Hawk or Chun didn't make it though.

I actually feel that Dan is playable,I dont know why Makoto isnt there..

Is Yang that bad?

@4 he is a none footsie character in a footsie game and gets raped by top tier.... and i would switch Guy out for E.ryu

Capcom overnerfed Yang, and it shows. Hopefully if there is a v2013 they buff him to be better.

#4 there is more than 1 thing that make him not that great. Gouken basically has no good hitcomfirms, he can't punish -3/-4 moves unless he has full super stocked (being close standing mk his only 3 frame normal), and he doesn't have good frametraps to open up a crouchtech-happy opponent

Surely Chun should be in there? Surely

@4 He has zero close up defense, his pokes confirm into nothing worth mentioning. He has his counter, but it's a guessing game unless you want to waste meter and unless its life or death I wouldn't waste Gouken's meter. You need to bank on your opponent making a huge mistake to net good damage. Basically if you make it through his fireball game, he is done and most of the better characters can do so easily.

@4 He has zero close up defense, his pokes confirm into nothing worth mentioning. He has his counter, but it's a guessing game unless you want to waste meter and unless its life or death I wouldn't waste Gouken's meter. You need to bank on your opponent making a huge mistake to net good damage. Basically if you make it through his fireball game, he is done and most of the better characters can do so easily.

Yang,Oni and Dudley shouldn't be on that list

This guy is full of crap. I see Gen, Hakan, and Guy all being used to their full potential recently and they are beasting it. This is the problem with tier list and the like, when there is no body who bothers to explore how to use a character most effectively they immediately go to the bottom of the tier list. Tier lists should be exposed for what they are, SCRUB LISTS. Tier lists are nothing but what characters are easiest to use initially with good speed and high damage output. Then every begins to play that character non stop then someone finds an exploit and then the next on the initial tier list goes to number one ad nauseum. NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR SCRUB LISTS, just play and find out your own path to victory.

@ 11
You've never seen a rush down Gouken have you?

@#6 as a yang player I really don't feel he is that bad, definitely not bottom 10. Yang did get too many nerfs in this version, but if you can keep the momentum in you favor with yang he is extremely dangerous. I still feel yang is viable, but you have to work much harder because of the damage nerfs.

@5 what makes you think makoto is low tier? quick dash, free ultra, 50/50 command grab, long active frames ("i like to hit buttons"). she's frightening when she has momentum

@15 At high level? Maybe once or twice, against the better characters it's just doesn't seem good enough.

S
Akuma, Cammy, Fei Long, C. Viper, Seth

A+
Ibuki, Adon, Sakura, Ryu, Rufus, Sagat, Yun, Balrog

A
Evil Ryu, Ken, Juri, Yang, Guy, Makoto, Gouken, M.Bison, Cody

B
Hakan, Dee Jay, Blanka, E.Honda, Guile, Abel, Rose, Gen, Chun Li, Oni, Zangief, Dhalsim

C
T.Hawk, Dan, El Fuerte, Vega

This is how I have the tier list nowadays with T.Hawk potentialy being a B instead of low tier and maybe Hakan being an A but I'm not so sure.

@4

Yeah, these guys are right. I've been playing Gouken for years, and he's pretty much playing a different game than other characters. And because he's the only character I play, I have a tough time playing other characters because I'm not used to the rest of the SF system. He's kind of like Blanka in that respect; but I hate Blanka, screw Blanka.

However, I still think he's MUCH better than bottom ten when all skill levels are equal.

Dud is not low tier. I would say upper mid tier. Yeah he has a few bad
Matchups (in particular, turtly defensive characters such as Guile and Sim),
But his damage/stun output and combo ability are insane.

I forgot Dudley, I have him at B

#4: Gouken for the most part doesn't have any combos, most of his combos come from his cr. HP or cl. st. HP, neither of which is reliable and furthermore, it's pretty much impossible to hit confirm into them other than from perhaps a demon flip kick and cl. st. MP. I don't think he's that high on the tier list but it's also debatable whether or not he is really bottom 10 and if he is, he probably isn't very far down. His damage and stun output is ridiculous though once he can get you mixed up and the round can end before you knew what happened.

I'm actually surprised some made it onto that list and others didn't, such as T. Hawk, Vega, Dhalsim, Guile and Makoto. The only one I don't feel like they belong there is Gen and possibly Guy and Gouken. Gen have pretty ridiculous normals and he can combo into his super and ultra for a large amount of damage. I don't feel like Guy is that good as long as the opponent holds down back more than they press buttons as Guy really has no way to open someone up unless they start pressing buttons (think of a lesser version of Cammy without the dive kicks) but I don't think he should be put on bottom 10 over the previously mentioned.

Over all though, I don't really disagree with his other picks, however, also keep in mind that a large majority of his bottom 10's are also easy match ups for Zangief, so maybe that's why he thinks they're bottom 10? Or maybe it's just a coincidence?

@19 Looks about right to me.

@20 every gouken i know hates blanka adon or cammy lmao. oh and akuma!

@24 Thanks man, I know Tier list are subjective and what not so I'm not saying my list is 100% acurate since the opinions of alot of characters vary from player to player.

@14 you do know these guys play THOUSANDS of matches right? not everything you see on youtube is an example of how every match is. not every match is a highlight of destruction. when you play enough matches, you'll get that 1 fight where everything is beautifully played leaving an impression of how godlike your character is.

watch those characters face bad matchups and you will see them struggle. the whole game is all about matchups and those characters on the list is unfortunately spot on.

Character specialists don't make the best tier lists as they're obviously influenced by matchups against their character. That is unless they use the character at the top of the heap.

can anyone explain this, when i play any character especially offensive characters (sakura cammy akuma) my win is like 50/50, even when i face someone who i know is average player.
but when i play bison, i destroy average and below average players, and against above average i'm maybe like 65% against strong players (unless its some A player, whome always whoops my candy ass)

#29: Do you know their combos and setups? Sakura has a ton of 1f links to maximize her damage. You need to know Akuma's setups in order for him to keep his vortex going and Cammy is frame trap heavy. Just because they are top tier does not negate the fact that you still need to know how to play them. I'm guessing that perhaps you know how to play Bison? Even if you don't, Bison is a relatively easy character to play, his LK scissor kicks are safe and does chip and he can pester his opponents with st. MK and st. HK, he also has a ton of escape options on his wake up. Also, the fact that Bison is a charge character leaves him in a relatively safe position as he's holding down back for a large part of the fight.

What the hell is doing Dudley in that list!? Gouken too?

People should realize this game is so balanced even those characters have a fair chance unless it's one of their worst matchups (and even top characters have some tough ones).

Also, the majority of those so called "low tiers" is really just characters who were weak in earlier iterations of the game, got buffed, but stayed unexplored because of that "low tier" aura.

Why is Guy considered this? I'm curious because Guy is one of my mains.

Switch yang with Rose :-/

Like most, I don't agree with this list, but a few of those are spot on. >.>

Gouken is bottom 10 when he gets knocked down lol. When he is standing I feel I can do anything. Hes got anti airs. You can play footies with him you just got to work hard at it and use your tools. I feel his air parry needs improvement 4 frame recovery instead of 6 come on capcom (was 12 in vanilla and super LOLOL) Honestly I feel kongo should counter EVERYTHING. Yes everything. He also needs a 2 hit instant projectile. The invincibility on his palms needs to be reworked also.

I could go on all day. He most certainly got good things going for him along with the bad and I try to use the good as best as possible

Gouken is not that bad, and neither is Guy. The problem is that they both have an unusually high learning curve. There are characters like Sagat that you can get moderate results with in a short time, and there are characters like Gouken with extremely character specific strategies.

IMO the fact that these "bottom tier" characters are represented in tourneys just show how well balanced AE 2012 is.

Basically they are low tier, but they still do well in certain matchups. Just think of these characters are flawed tools, but they are useful tools nonetheless.

I think any gief player will have Guy as a bad character because his weaknesses are most exposed. As incomplete, unorthodox and unsolid as he may be and a biased opinion from a Guy player, I still think he's respectable mid tier.

@16 Yang is that bad, in my opinion. It's not just damage nerfs... he had nerfs all across the board to all moves he had including the nerf of his main punisher s.lk, a cross up that now requires pixel perfect precision even with set-ups, dive kick having 2 extra recovery frames, EX command grab losing range and throw invulnerability. That was just the tip of the iceberg. He was nerfed a lot harder than Yun for god knows why.

He needed nerfing but not to the point Capcom did.

At this point he is a high risk, low-reward character, A low health character that does crap damage that requires you to be 100% good with your execution. He needed a few of his tools back so he can be a compromise between AE and 2012. He's not fine the way he is now.

@40 I know all the nerfs you don't have to explain them to me, but there is no "high risk" to his gameplay. His normals are incredible, all of his block strings are safe, and his dive kick is safe if you place it right(confirming with yang is stupid easy btw.) The only problem with yang is the fact that your execution has to be on point but that doesn't effect how good the character is. I don't think that yang is really good, but he is a solid mid tier character.

@41
I think he's only near the middle if your execution is flawless. He needs to use meter for anything legitimately threatening.

The only people who should care about tier lists are tier whores and the only people who should be tier whores are the few who actually compete at the major tourneys. Everyone else shouldn't even worry about tiers and just play with characters that you like because you'll only be good enough to beat your friends & family anyway.

That said, I hope they retire El Fuerte in the future, he's "ass-tier" all the way and a really bad stereotype to boot.

Just look at the average BP rankings in Japan to get a decent idea of who is bottom. I'm a Guy main and struggle to maintain Grand Master, even Master sometimes. I'm guessing people that think Guy is higher are watching WNF? Kappa.

When people know the Guy matchup well it gets much harder for Guy since his gimmicks don't work.

lol at someone putting Abel in B and Claw at C.

I'm a Dudley player, and I have to admit that he may belong on that list, at least as the 9th or 10th worst character.

From the top of my head:

Dudley's best pokes don't cancel into anything significant other than his Super. People always tell me his F+HP is amazing, however it gets destroyed by a well timed focus attack as Dudley can not recover quickly enough to be safe (this can apply to his standing HP as well but it depends on the opponents Focus Attack).

As a character, his damage output is great with no meter and absurd with just one bar. He has good anti-air options, his air-to-air game is good, he has many ways to link into his standing HK which cancels into anything and is a frame-trapping nightmare. However, his cross-counter can be a bit slow and the damage can not be recovered, his Jet Upper only has invincibility (which is comparatively limited) with EX and his light Jet Upper has a 4-frame start-up (compared to the usual 3), a blocked MP/HP/EX Machine Gun Blow can be punished painfully, a blocked LP Machine Gun Blow gets eaten alive by command grabbers, his Duck Under is only useful mid-screen and closer (ducking under a fireball at full-screen after the opponent has recovered is asking for trouble) and gets hit by most normals (standing or crouch).

For his match-ups, he has quite a few bad ones that don't include the usual top 10. Guile with his quick fireball recovery, Zangief whose only worry is Dudley's HP or F+HP (either of which can be punished with SPD if poorly used) are a couple examples.

Just because you got blown-up by a character you know next to nothing about does not make them mid or high tier. It just means you got some homework to do.

@#44
"When people know the Guy matchup well it gets much harder for Guy since his gimmicks don't work."

Exactly.

I agree with you on Dudley too. I remember speaking to Wao (Best Ken/ Oni in the world perhaps and played Dudley for a good amount of time) about this and he said the same thing, he eventually dropped him. He has solid pressure but also "gimmicky". Saying that, there are Dudleys well over 100,000BP in Japan but not a single Guy player can stay above 100,000BP and the one that is close isn't playing in Tokyo / Osaka etc (no disrespect but the level is different here).

I agree with his list but at his mentioned; it's hard. There is some case for T-Hawk to be there perhaps but not Claw or Rose...

#44 where do you see the bp rankings?

#48 http://www.ssfranking.com/

BP average is here:

http://kyosuke.kun.free.fr/Ranking/in... again, BP is all relative (like Yun's is well out and Yang too since their nerfs) but it's still a decent indicator of a characters rank imo.

Guy is an average character, but UNIQUE in my opinion. He has setups, but many won't work if the player knows what Guy is capable of and knows how to counter.

It's different for Viper or Cammy for instance, because they have great ways to open you up (dive kicks, cross-up burn kicks, etc.). Guy is more easily punished because of his runs (he loses to grapplers too). With Guy, you have to bait the opponent into making a mistake or catch them pressing a button to start the pressure in my opinion. Turtles are also a tough one for Guy and similar characters.

The best player that I know in Alabama is A Guy player... Does that mean we are bad?

#50: Yep, I have to agree. Charge characters are a nightmare for Guy because they can hold down back and there's not much you can do and jumping is generally a bad idea. Not to discount Mark Teddy from WNF but people tend to press too many buttons when fighting against him, that's why Guy looks to be so good in his hands.

Profound Sadness..........

Lol @ Guy being there.

@#45
As another who mains Dudley I whole-heartedly agree with your points. Thing with Dudley is that he is capable of stunning/K.Oing you in an absurdly short amount of time, but he can get lamed out realllllyyyy easy by a lot of characters. You definitely need a good analysis ability of your opponents habits in order to capitalize on a knockdown, because after 2 mixups on most characters, that's the stun, but one mistake and your position is usually reset and you have to get in ALL OVER AGAIN. Also; Why the hell is yang up there?! He's a solid character! He's terrible compared to his AE version no doubt, but c'mon, his AE version was godlike. He still retains an amazing bufferable footsie, and can keep insane pressure on you in the corner. I play yang myself and don't see where a lot of people are coming from on his viability. If any one would care to explain, please do so.

#55: I think what makes Yang so weak is his damage output and lack of good footsies. You might be able to get some combos in but the combos themselves don't deal that much damage from BnB's like cr. LK into Mantis Slashes. He needs to open up his opponents several times before he can get the kill whereas most other characters would be able to finish the round long before that. He also doesn't have that good of footsies so he can get out ranged relatively easily. He's a mix-up heavy character but I think once people figure out his set ups and whatnot, his gimmicks where he gets his damage from would plummet.

In comparison, you look at someone like Fei Long (yeah, I know, top tier and whatever) and he has relatively the same openers as Yang except a dive kick but he has a lot higher damage output, better focus attack and better footsies. Fei also have a lot more ambiguous cross ups that partly makes him so ridiculously good allowing him to keep his opponent guessing. In some sense, it wouldn't make too much sense to play Yang over Fei unfortunately.

gouken and dudley are debatable. I think dudley is mid tier, he's pretty good. Good damage, good normals, decent health and walk speed, good priority, many ways to get in and stay in, and many tools.

Seriously? Gouken? CoughProudStrawberryCough

I hope if there is a patch, yang gets back his crossup air mk. And maybe some invincibility frames on his UA 1/2. Jesus the UAs trade against normals.

you will never find a gief saying chunli is bottom tier goukens the only one is disagree with though

A bottom 10 without T. Hawk=first one I've agreed with

Stop playing one character.

THawk should replace SOMEONE in that list. Cause he's arguably rock bottom.

@19

Fixed imho:

S
Akuma, Cammy, Fei Long, Adon, Seth

A+
Ibuki, C. Viper, Makoto, Rufus, Sakura, Ryu, Sagat, Balrog

A
Yun, M.Bison, Cody, Ken, Rose, E.Honda, Evil Ryu, Guy, Gouken, Gen

B
Yang, Hakan, Dee Jay, Blanka, Juri, Guile, Abel, Chun Li, Oni, Zangief, Dhalsim, Vega

C
T.Hawk, Dan, El Fuerte

@19

"A
Evil Ryu, Ken, Juri, Yang, Guy, Makoto, Gouken, M.Bison, Cody"

E.Ryu that high?! I disagree!

I like devilcucos list better.
But I'd put Hakan oiled at B tier. But C un-oiled and Guile into A.

lmao its funny becuz dudley vs guikle is not bad ints in dudleys favor imo guile cant keep a dudley out and dudley st.hp is good vs guile someone who says dud vs guile is bad need to work on thier char more

Whats made chun so bad of late? Last I check tier lists (like... not long after super) she was considered top tier. To be honest, thats why I stopped maining her and went to Rose, I *hate* playing top tier chars. Is it because U1 still doesnt juggle right and U2 does feck all damage? I thought she got only minor nerfs in AE.

I think this list is too long. The only characters that deserve to be really called low tier to the point where they are just unplayable are Hakan,Dan and T.Hawk. Everyone else can manage.

Cannot disagree more...Blanka, Chun Li and T.Hawk NEEDS to be in the list. I'm guessing he's biased because these 3 characters do decent or favors the matchup against Gief.

why are people saying vega should be on there? just because you dont kno how to play him doesnt mean he is a bad character. he has GREAT pokes great range great speed and he is strong. just cause he doesnt play like a shoto dont mean anything. i kno some vegas that would change every mind here no way would he be bottom tier your crazy

that's just someone's opinion. not fact! unless it's official Capcom tier or whatever, I don't care what he thinks. most tiers are also opinions. Chun-Li is the best fighter and that is MY OPINION. no way is Guy one of the 10 worst characters. he's a beast in the right hands (I main him too cuz he shares the same birthday as me).

This is a horrible list. Hakan? Gouken? Gen? Guy? What in the holy fck am I reading?

This is the worst attempt at tiering I've ever seen in SF4.

i give Itabashi, more credit then you guys are given him.He plays in Japan, he sees more matches then all of you,he plays in arcades, which is more meaginful then online matches,some of the arcades are even open 24/7 their skill are higher,take dat into consideration

@49
Thanks for that second link. I love how the Japanese love Sagat!

PUT_SAGAT_IN_TOP_TIER!

Damn oni. Thought you were a god among men?

#25 u r right, F#KC BLANKA
Gouken has great offensive tools (if u hit it or jus dont get shoryukened, electrified etc.)
but once ur on D its a nightmare, especially wen ppl hav stupid small hurtboxes because if Cammy, for instance does c.jab, step, c.jab, step, I cant jus stop her shenanigans wit a shoryuken unless I use my super which may not land because she isnt mashing the jab, cant use my ex tatsumaki because her hitbox(or is it called hurtbox)is too effin small n wont hit her crouching, same goes for Ryu n Ken n Sakura n many others that arent Abel, Oni, Sagat sized n even if I managed 2 land it I jus used up 1 bar for one move which I can only hav 4 of those..

then theres his demon flip, why o why did they jus not make if like Akumas, even if they wouldn't, they could've at least made hit punch 0 recovery like Akumas or made they super armor last for 2 hits, his demon flip is not that good unless ur opponent is willing 2 fall for it, assuming the dont jus shoryuken u outta the air

Then theres his light attacks, they dont f#kc!n link to sh!t, if u start landing jabs u will end wit light kick or jab, his c.lk is really messed up, it looks like a c.mk but has not ability to cancel like one n if someones going to grab its bad for crouch teching since u cannot link c.lk n the recovery makes it so u can only use it once n u gotta try n guess a grab that if u succeed, u will do minimal damage n wont b able to punish, fighting off a ken karagrab is hard af to do wen u dont kno wen u will b grabbed n u cannot quickly thro out some c.lks to b safe, it gets stressful at times, also makes me think y would capcom add 0 damage(maybe 1) gray health to the b.grab, a few people whined about it foolishly,so they nerfed it, Gouken is the master, he survived the raging demon but cant beat a little green ugly-ass electric ball jungle reject..wtf Capcom

These r just a few problems in the life of Gouken, play him a little n see ...also he didnt say all wer low tier, he said his bottom 10, 10 is a lot of characters

#77 watch the way u speak of the ONI

To place Gouken at the bottom of the list is a disrespect to all Gouken fans and Gouken fighters, are we forgetting who train Ryu and Ken, In my humble opinion there are fighters that hard to play with and some are easy, some are straight up boring and some are exciting so it all comes down to what kind of fighter appeal to you, all this tier listing is BS cause all it takes is a good set up, cross up or fake and any character in the game could destroy you, I saw a match recently between Xian vs Akimo (Gen vs Honda)and in most of the victory Time was the deciding factor because both fighter had good defense and offence so somebody had to risk it in order to win.

Just recently i saw a video posted with a ken fighter and all he did to win his matches was throw after throw after throw, it was ridiculos and boring to look at but that's what did it for him, so tell me what tier listing had to do with that fighting style, maybe his technique is of a grappler but uses a shoryuken type to confuse you, who knows, and thats my point.

Heres Top 10 in SSF4 AE 2012
1.Cammy
2.C.Viper
3.Seth
4.Akuma
5.Fei Long
6.Rufus
7.Adon
8.Sakura
9.Ibuki
10.Yun
By the way i dont agree with this list at all....

Gen , Hakan and Guy have NO PLACE on there.

But the issue is the game is so well balanced that if we categorize rankings as S A B C D, the difference is really only considerable in between ranks A and D ( Akuma, Cammy, Fei Long vs. Dan, Fuerte, and T. Hawk). Aaaaallll of the rest is a very competitive cast of characters which can conceivably make top 8 of any major.

When you think of bottom tier characters you should think "Would I be surprised if this character made top 8 at Evo?"

And those who would come to mind, for me are : Dan ( I play Dan, breaks my heart), Fuerte and Hawk.

You know what I would think if Hakan made top 8?

WAS ABOUT F-ING TIME

Hakan is a beast.

@ 84 I totally agree with you