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Ultra Street Fighter 4 change demonstrations using SSF4 AE v2012 PC mod: Juri, Seth, Rose, and Evil Ryu - includes delayed wake up

Posted by DreamKing23
December 18, 2013 at 9:32 a.m. PST

KingBlackToof continues to create video demonstrations of the reported Ultra Street Fighter 4 changes, using a Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition v2012 PC mod. In today's bunch, we have demos for Juri, Seth, Rose, and Evil Ryu.

Not only do we get to see many of these reported changes in action, but the videos also include a showing of each character's Red Focus, and use of the delayed wake up.

Hit the jump to view these demonstrations.


- Ultra 2 is improved. Hit box expanded forward to make it easier to combo.

- It's possible her standing normals can chain/link(?) into her sweep now.

- Toward + Medium Kick is now airborne from the first frame.

- Jump Heavy Punch no longer knocks down.

- Level 2 Focus Attack, Toward Jump Medium Punch into Jump Heavy Punch connects.

- Far Standing Light Kick is now 4f.

- Crouching Medium Kick is now 5f.

- Far Standing Heavy Kick is airborne from the 3rd frame now (used to be 6th frame).

- Standing Light Punch hitbox has been expanded downward, possibly letting her hit crouching opponents?

- EX Pinwheel Kick is now invincible up to 7f.

- Level 2 Focus Attack, backdash, Jump forward HP connects.

- Far Medium Punch can now be cancelled.

- Ultra 1 invicibility frames (on activation) reduced, from 1~4f to 1~2f. Duration on Ultra reduced from 900f to 700f.

- Crouching Light Kick->Crouching Light Kick->Crouching Medium Kick is now possible.

- While in Feng Shui Engine mode, startup of both Close Standing Medium Kick and Close Standing Medium Punch has been changed to be the same as in her regular mode.

- Crouching Medium Kick recovery reduced to 16f (used to be 17f).

- EX Pinwheel Kick is now -15f on block (used to be -14f).


- Has Dhalsim's jump back Heavy Punch again.

- Can no longer cross up jump Heavy Kick.

- Triangle Jump distance has been reduced.

- Jump Medium Kick can crossup.

- Dive Kick hurtbox increased.

- First hit of Shoryuken cannot be focus canceled now.

- Shoryuken invincibility changed from 7f to 5f.

- Ultra 1's hit box has been expanded vertically.

- Ultra 2's recovery changed from 89f to 70f. First hit of damage changed from 24 to 30.

- All Piledrivers now do 150 stun (down from 200).

- Medium Hyakuretsukyaku now does 100 stun (down from 150).

- Heavy Hyakuretsukyaku now does 150 stun (down from 200).

- Tanden Stream recovery reduced to 55f (from 66f).


- Ultra 2 command changed to 3x Kick instead of Punch.

- All Soul Spiral (drills) do 10 more damage.

- Light Kick Soul Spiral range increased by 5%.

- Crouching Light Punch +10 damage, now does 30.

- Crouching Light Kick +10 damage, now does 40.

- Crouching Medium Punch +10 damage, now does 70.

- EX Soul Spiral does 200 stun, has 13 invincible frames and is no longer throw invincible.

- Medium Soul Spark is now 20 frames startup (from 22f), heavy soul spark 27 frame startup (from 29f).

- Ultra Combo 1 is now 10 frames startup (from 12f).

- Rose's Dash is now 20 frames.

- Close Standing Medium Kick's hitbox extended forward and downward.

Evil Ryu

- Health 950.

- Crouch Heavy Kick start up is 6 frame.

- Can combo into crouch HK now.

- Foward Medium Kick has better downward hitbox.

- Heavy Axe Kick start up is 25f.

- Target Combo can now be done from far standing MP.

- +1f of blockstun on his Crouching Medium Kick.

- Light Hurricane Kick travels 0.3 distance instead of 0.2.

- Ultra 2: Start up for 2nd Shoryuken reduced by 2f.

Mentioned by Taa.


Ryu_Apprentice said on December 18, 2013 at 9:54 a.m.

Good stuff, but before anyone throws in some complaints, lets understand that these are still subject to change

CaptainPlanet said on December 18, 2013 at 10:02 a.m.

If this guy was working for Capcom, I would have had the game by Christmas ^_^

yes4me said on December 18, 2013 at 10:06 a.m.

If this guy was working for Capcom, the game would have been better tune from the start

AriesWarlock said on December 18, 2013 at 10:13 a.m.

Those details they added to Juri's red focus are really cool, gleaming eye and more purple. But yeah, taking away her dive kick on jump back is horrible.

Sunforged_One said on December 18, 2013 at 10:17 a.m.

Juri can't divekick during backjumps?! oO
I hope, that isn't true. But if it is true, I wich the EX-one can now be controlled like it can be during U1, also if U1 isn't active.
The rest is really nice. I like the down-MK-buff!

Roses damage-buffs are quite neat. Adding Range on her light Soulspiral seems to be good for the down-MP into Soulspiral-cancel, which is quite nice, too. Removing throw-invicibility during EX-Soulspiral is a change I don't like (Yes, sometimes I am a Rose-player, but even if I wasn't, I won't like that change :/ )

Bonushealth for Evil Ryu is a cool thing.

Seth? Well... cool to see his long arms during backjumps.

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 10:24 a.m.

Ultra Nerfed Fighter IV

GakoTheChef said on December 18, 2013 at 10:27 a.m.

Im actually interested to use Seth now that he isnt brain dead.

AmbiFMA said on December 18, 2013 at 10:31 a.m.

Except for the characters that are getting needed buffs to compete.

BigFleccs said on December 18, 2013 at 10:33 a.m.

Seth nerfed to trash.

Remondo02 said on December 18, 2013 at 10:45 a.m.

The game will be ten times better in Ultra.

Capcom did a good job for these changes.

The only problem will be the 5 news characters and how they match to the rest of the cast and how well rounded they will be...
Hope Rolento will not be too strong, I hate him so much.

Long life to Hugo and Elena !!!

Sage_Liebert said on December 18, 2013 at 10:45 a.m.
(This comment was hidden because it was down voted. You can view it by clicking here.)

awww you mad that your seth got slightly nerfed? his changes aren't even final you crybaby.

samuraix025 said on December 18, 2013 at 10:58 a.m.

I know Guys was a weekend ago but for all the Bushinryus out there combofiend stated that EX BSK having a 6 frame start up was a mistake at super arcade

also we got cr MP anti-air back

DarknessFallz said on December 18, 2013 at 11:02 a.m.

On paper the Rose changes seemed ok but with everyone else getting buffed this causes concern

coddog said on December 18, 2013 at 11:19 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

Anon said on December 18, 2013 at 11:20 a.m.

Sage_Liebert is right to mock you.

These changes aren't final.

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 11:21 a.m.

are you like 13 years old or something?

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 11:23 a.m.

who cares if the changes are final or not, nobody should mock anybody here. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and responding to "complaints" with "mocking" is straight up disrespectful for no reason

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 11:24 a.m.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought I had to cry more since this is how people get the changes they want.

How are you enjoying the changes that you suggested? Feeling your characters are better from the videos you watched?

Btw, thank you Combofiend for the dream changes that Dawgtanian said everyone would get, including Seth. I always dreamed about making it easier stun Seth and not for him to stun others. I also dreamed about being able to recover faster from ultra 2 so I could have more time that I can do nothing with. And boy oh boy! No cross-up heavy kick! I think this'll balance Seth well so he doesn't win as many tournaments as he has in the past 18 months. 1 tournament wins are too much for Seth.

Hey, Yun players. How's your command grab?

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 11:36 a.m.

Just going to have to accommodate your playstyle for these Seth chnages, but going forward I would have to say the following:

Keep in mind that Double Ultra and Red Focus are being added, there's an extremely good chance that with these added mechanics Seth was a little OP so they needed to nerf him to better fit the environment.

A lot of people read these change lists and plug that "updated" character into their imaginary SF4 AE2012 world...stop doing that...

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 11:38 a.m.

And yes, the delayed wakeup does technically hurt Seth in the longrun, but I don't think Delayed Wakeup is going to be nearly as big an issue for vortex characters as people are making it out to be, it's not variable timing so plenty of setups will be discovered to catch this

Tryken said on December 18, 2013 at 11:47 a.m.

I still really wish that Rose's soul spiral kept its throw invincibility. No longer will you be able to throw it while an opponent like Balrog is just jabbing you into a grab to punish him for it.

Gurpwnder said on December 18, 2013 at 11:50 a.m.

Evil Ryu's a sleeper character (though perhaps not anymore now that he won the recent Capcom Cup). With the offensive buffs, i really don't think he needs a life buff of all things. He's the game's resident glass cannon, I'd say his life should be CUT by 50 instead of raised by 50.

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 12:02 p.m.

Evil Ryu gets overrated by some and underrated by some, Sako's performance was incredibly solid and he has the execution and skill to bring the character above and beyond. He's not perfect however.

Who said he was the resident glass cannon? What about Akuma and Seth? Are they not glass cannons who have been around longer than Evil Ryu? Also his health would still be considered below "normal" at 950. I prefer offensive tools to more health, but I'll take the health.

But the part that makes the least sense with that comment is that characters like Juri and Ken get a truckload of buffs and are no worse than Evil Ryu. Why don't they get a health nerf too by that logic (not that I'm advocating it). Why should Evil Ryu's health be nerfed to Akuma's when he doesn't have the toolset?

The only "buffs" he got are the sweep which is going to be weaker with DWU, and the faster axe kick by 1 frame (doesn't matter, 25 frame startup is still horribly slow) with 1 frame of blockstun on cr mk. As I told you before the rest of his changes are fixes since many of his moves had issues.

1. U2 starting up 2 frames faster on second uppercut was to fix opponents falling out.

2. Hopkick being lower is to fix it missing enemies doing crouching attacks which made it useless in those situations.

3. Target combo fix was to give him a usable TC option since the close one is worthless as cl mp and medium axe kick do way more damage and is a safe blockstring.

Why on earth would he need a health nerf?

warriors said on December 18, 2013 at 12:12 p.m.

Rose currently is a solid, new comers friendly characters
she have few tools, but they all mostly good
and solid normals

I thing all beginners should start with rose

I dont see her thought becoming a top tier character
under solid pressure, rose will crumble

To really improve her, an overhead would have been nice
an overhead would have completed her newbi friendlyness
new comers would learn the benefits of an overhead

I also think, if she can recover faster from her fireballs
she would be very close to top tier characters
I get easily punished on my recovery from fireballs

I dont think she needed those damage buffs

HASJ said on December 18, 2013 at 12:18 p.m.

I still can't see how Delayed Wake Up hurts anything.
It only adds to the need of knowing more the game to win.

Okizeme =/= Knowing the proper spacing and timing for a unblockable/safe jump in.
As a mild Seth player, love the added Wake Up option as it increases player interaction.
The vortex is still there. I only to be a better player to apply it now.

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 12:24 p.m.

Oh I prefer the the fact that you have to think more. But it will have an affect on knockdown based gameplay which was why it was designed.

Eye_of_Orochi said on December 18, 2013 at 12:24 p.m.

Complain and complain until you get what you want, then boycott if you don't. It's the American way.

Glad Guy isn't really getting those nerfs though.

Not saying he didn't need tweaks but it kind if confuses me why Seth of all top tiers got hit so hard with the bat, then we see Viper getting multiple buffs? Seth's gameplan will need to be altered more than anyone elses. Too many people will only ever see this game from their own character's perspective, which is why we should never get such heavily weighted input on balance ever again.

Also, Oni and E. Ryu are totally slept on and I truly fear their prowess in Ultra already....and I'm not usually one to jump the gun.

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 12:34 p.m.

Let's see:
Why anyone would use Seth's Ultra 2 is for comboability.
Say you get lightning legs against a cornered opponent while you have full UW in stock. Not a comboed lightning legs just; just raw.

The Ultra does 66% of regular damage.
First hit of Ultra would not hit since it has a juggle potential of 0.
One of the Ultra hits may or may not hit (say it does).
The Ultra is scaled 20% because it's the second hit and an Ultra.
The game rounds down all fractions.

{[Regular raw Ultra damage (372) - first hit damage] * 66% *80%} rounded down

= 185 damage.

Is that OP?

Say it was a big combo, no a standard FADC combo with 4 preceeding hits. How useful is it to end it with Ultra 2 of Ultra Double?

Ultra 1 is used to punish. It has 340 damage raw no UW.
226 damage raw with UW and god forbid they nerf the damage on this one.

Seth mostly has mix-up that rely on either hitting dive kick or cross-up heavy kick.
If I did heavy kick and it hit, I could do cr. hp (if I time it right) and combo into Ultra 1 scaled.
Now dive kick is easier to punish and heavy is replaced with medium. How do I get Ultra?
I could go to cr. lp with either, but would only be able to hit confirm if I used dive kick (longer hit animation) and then to cl. hp (which I confirm into) and cancel into Sonic Boom FADC Ultra 1. 4 hits preceeding the Ultra. Now it does 170 damage. Could have gone with cross-up heavy to cr. hp and got a 238 damage Ultra. Oh, wait...

Now do you see why cross-up heavy kick is important?

Seth's games usually went like this: Stun the opponent quickly or be stunned. There was no vortex involved. Stunning was achieved by using mix-ups, and now his mix-ups are nerfed and the important moves used to stun now do less stun (legs and SPD).

This is supposed to make Seth go into a different direction and style, yet has hasn't been given and walk speed buff, no better footsie tools (as if he had any) and now he's forced to play defensively and they didn't even give him neutral jump stretchy arms back.

Do you people really see every nerf as its own entity that has no relation to the other nerfs? Do you really not see how bad this is for Seth plus the extra mechanics?

How can you even say he's good with the tournament results he's had in the past?

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 12:37 p.m.

Many characters are slept on and some are getting some tremendous buffs. With the new system mechanics added in it will be a while before it's all settled. People always complain around balance changes, either some character is "ruined" (rarely the case) or some character is going to be insane (usually not the case). So it's normal. You also have people hyping up the latest flavor of the month due to a recent showing. People need to look at character familiarity in matchups as well as sample size. Many times someone new comes along and does well with a character, people hype about it and then the hype dies as it is figured out and the game evolves. It's just the meticulous nature of the meta game.

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 12:50 p.m.

You're missing the point of what I'm saying, you don't need to lay out everything about Seth and why you think this new implementation is crappy. I agree with you that he got some heavy nerf's and the direction of his character is unclear/not in the right direction, but I don't think you're looking at the overall picture and you're jumping to conclusions so damn early. If the player's at the location tests did their job correctly ( and Combofiend did his job to get feedback ) then this list you see above will look different in a few months.

Have you played matches in Ultra Street Fighter 4 taking full advantage of the added mechanics, these changes to Seth, as well as the changes to every other character in the game?

I'm not trying to argue here, but seriously people are taking these changelist to heart when they shouldn't be, and just because a character needs to be played differently doesn't mean it's a bad thing...

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 12:52 p.m.

well put

SAMURAI said on December 18, 2013 at 12:53 p.m.

Seth nerfs are ridiculous! There is no need for these nerfs. Seth is a BOSS character, he's supposed to be strong. And it's not like he was winning any tournaments anyway.

Tell us Combofiend, why these nerfs????

Captainbuttocks said on December 18, 2013 at 12:56 p.m.

Yep I don't wanna run away with seth. I play seth so I can own all the annoying turtles online. I wanna rush like there's no tomorrow.

Seth is not braindead. A seth player has to contantly be thinking 2 mixups ahead. It seems more braindead that the opponent does not want to make the effort to think against seth, easier to message capcom. People will still cry foul when new setups are found for him in ultra I predict.
Funny thing is that they are making seth more annoying with these changes due to runaway tactics.

Cyan said on December 18, 2013 at 1:02 p.m.

Evil Rayoo has Soul Satellites near his fists while doing red focus.

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 1:23 p.m.

"people are taking these changelist to heart when they shouldn't be"

If we don't, and just sit and say nothing about them, they'll stay.

"just because a character needs to be played differently doesn't mean it's a bad thing..."

Cammy lost her ability to play her mini vortex and the ability to stun quickly, but she can still play footsies and play it well.

Seth lost the ability to do his mix-ups on knockdown and the ability to stun quickly, and he can't play footsies. His resets into mix-ups aren't great and are easily punishable.
He's only left with the option to play defensively, and they've only given him one defensive option.

They haven't sent him to that direction; they've forced him. And on top of that, they haven't even pushed him half way through it.

"but I don't think you're looking at the overall picture and you're jumping to conclusions so damn early."

Big nerfs. That's one.
Delayed wake-up. Two.
Three useless/unnecessary buffs. Three.
UW is useless for him. Four.
Most of the cast is getting great buffs. Five.

The only hope he has is Red Focus, which is not specific to him, meaning everyone will know how to counter it. Six.

Six feet deep under.

I thought about it all. No way this is good for him.

I thought about all the negatives. Can you think of something good that will make him viable?

Cyan said on December 18, 2013 at 1:24 p.m.

The Seth is dead, long live the Seth.

Gurpwnder said on December 18, 2013 at 1:55 p.m.

I would certainly say that Evil Ryu is the 'glass cannon'. Whereas Gouki and Seth trade life for versatility, Evil Ryu makes that trade for power.

The biggest problem I have with E.Ryu getting a life buff is that it puts him at a mere 50 points below Ryu. In the past (CVS2), E.Ryu has had less health than Gouki, but now he's two health tiers above him and 1 health tier below Ryu.

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 1:55 p.m.

"Big nerfs. That's one.
Delayed wake-up. Two.
Three useless/unnecessary buffs. Three.
UW is useless for him. Four.
Most of the cast is getting great buffs. Five.

The only hope he has is Red Focus, which is not specific to him, meaning everyone will know how to counter it. Six."

1. You've got big nerfs...That's is one

2. Delayed wake-up? Disagree here, Seth is going to have plenty of setups to figure this out, like its been said before it's not variable timing, therefore setups exist...

3. Three useless/unecessary buffs - how can you say these are unecessary and/or useless, they haven't been picked at and tested by Seth power user's. I haven't watched any of the videos so I can't comment on what the guy did for Seth in the AE PC mod up above, but the way he implements and comments on things isn't going to be 100% accurate to the actual implementations put out by Capcom. His Ultra1 expanded hitbox can create new ways to combo into the Ultra, can it not? His shortened recovery can help create pressure after landing Ultra 2? can it not?

4. UW is uesless for him? disagree again, if Seth uses UW and gains Ultra meter he can essentially lock down the opponents fireball and jump-in game, since he has more options it forces a smart opponent to respect these options.

5. Most of the cast is getting great buffs...yea because most of the cast can't deal with Seth, he's a top tier character did you expect them to just give him more super buffs?

6. The only hope he has is Red Focus, but since everybody has it everyone will know how to counter it...don't act like anybody knows anything about Red Focus yet, this mechanic has gotten very very little use.

And yes, it's very obvious that they are making Seth a defensive/spacing character, and it's very obvious that you are against the idea of this.

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 1:59 p.m.

It's as if people run through these lists, count the nerfs to buffs ratio and then make a final decision based on that number...

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 2:01 p.m.

this one's not pointed at you Sarif, just in general

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 2:02 p.m.

Seth and Gouki can definitely put the hurt on characters and end a match fast. Many cases even faster than Evil Ryu since they don't have to work so hard to get in and they also have better escape options.

Like I said, I'd prefer better tools to health, but I'll take the health. I'm not for trying to balance Evil Ryu around Akuma and Ryu that much because it's never fair and the players of Ryu and Akuma don't want him to have anything their characters have.

For example Ryu gets more blockstun on his cr mk for blockstrings and better ultra 2 combo potential, which is Evil Ryu's turf, but people don't want Evil Ryu to have more health or faster normals.

I wouldn't really compare CvS2 though. Evil Ryu had fireballs that had 1 frame faster startup than Guile's with a 1 frame slower recovery! He played a lot differently in that game. My favorite fighter though, at least from Capcom.

Like I said more tools (better offense) > health. Don't think he needs a health nerf though.

Hitstick said on December 18, 2013 at 2:23 p.m.

You complainers destroyed Seth...A character who ALREADY had very low health.

devilcuco said on December 18, 2013 at 2:38 p.m.

Thanks for asking, our command grab is a joke now. Capcom did those well needed command grab and upkicks nerfs to balance yun so he doesn't win as many tournaments as he has in the past 18 months... oh wait! Yes a total of 0 tournaments.

And im not a seth user, but i think the wall of nerfs they did to him are uncalled for. Revert all and just nerf his command grab. I think this was the only problem. Too fast for a char with this mobility.imho.

Gurpwnder said on December 18, 2013 at 2:45 p.m.

Yeah, I disagreed with that Ryu buff too.

I feel that the two characters are becoming more and more homogenized with these changes, with Evil Ryu getting closer to Ryu's health and gaining the ability to sweep more characters while Ryu's enroaching on Evil Ryu's Cr.MK xx fireball blockstring.

I'm certainly glad that E.Ryu's getting his low crush buffed so it works as intended - that's a fantastic tool to have since it corner carries and crushes shoto / other low pokes.

I was wondering if instead of a health buff, Evil Ryu could instead get one more property change on his low crush (F+MK). What if it put an airbourne opponent into a juggle state and his F+MK air tatsus could juggle once or twice after that? Something like SRK FADC F+MK xx HK tatsu could bring them to the corner more quickly, while sacrificing damage and the hard knockdown of axe kick.

Kors said on December 18, 2013 at 2:48 p.m.

Anyone using viper in these location test??

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 3:04 p.m.

2-Setups will only be useful if the Seth player knows when the opponent will use delayed wake-up.

3-Ultra 1's expanded hitbox is expanded UPWARDS. This does not affect the combo potential in any beneficial way. The only use of this is if I'm too lazy to time the Ultra to when they're close to landing.
If Ultra 2 is used mid-screen, it'll knock the opponent down on the other end. the recovery time the Ultra has now makes it so that they wake-up at about the same time. What am I going to do with 12 frames of early recovery all the way across the screen? If I teleport immediately, I WILL be at a huge disadvantage. Yeah, sure I may be able to apply pressure, but this isn't Seth's game since he's going to be defensive.

4-You lock down a smart opponent's fireball game with Ultra 1. If you rely on reacting to fireballs to get the Ultra to land, you'll be baited. The can also jump at unexpected times to mess with your head so you can't react with Ultra 2, and at the right distance so that they can avoid Shoryuken and land at the perfect spot for their pokes to reach and play footsies, something that Seth can't play.
Playing with Seth in an uphill battle, and you'd only win with him against those who don't know that. Sadly, those are the same people that Capcom listen to.

5-He's not a top tier. I said this before and I'll say it many times more: Seth does bad at tournaments. Cammy, Akuma and Fei Long won 12, 11, and 9 of 62 tournaments respectively. That's half of them. Seth won one. This is not counting the tournaments after the last Canada Cup.
No top players a having trouble against him. By definition, he is not a top tier. And what did they do to this character who is not top tier?

6-I didn't say everyone knows how to deal with it; I said they WILL know how to deal with it. Red Focus is not a tool limited to Seth. Discovering counters and using them will become part of the meta.

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 3:33 p.m.

2. The idea is that he will create setups designed to be used to handle regular/delayed wakeups. If the regular wakeup setup whiffs because the opponent hasn't gotten up yet, you have a follow up as part of the setup that will handle the delayed case. this isn't a hard concept and one of the EH guys even said in the summaries the other day that people are already doing this at location tests

3. Can't say much more about the Ultra's since I don't play Seth, but his other buff ( jump back stretch arms ) seem like a pretty damn good defensive buff if you ask me, allowing him to keep characters off of him and to keep his spacing.

4. this is a theory fighter argument, neither of us can win/lose, it's all player dependent. Depending on the matchup I could see this being very beneficial, and useless in others. If you're at that perfect distance where your shoryuken misses and their pokes hit...well maybe you should move? This argument can be made for every character, those perfect distances exist for all match ups

5. You act like every character has won 100 majors, why is Seth so special that he needs to go from 1 to 50 wins? How many victories does Dan have? How about DeeJay, Cody, Gouken, thawk, yang? How many player's use Seth in tournaments as opposed to Akuma/Cammy ( less probably, so he's bound to have less victories ). Again though we can go back n forth as to why Seth is/isn't top tier but I still see him as a strong character, he's just high risk high reward ( like Balrog, but Balrog has like 1,000 tournament wins so he's clearly top tier )

6. Correct, so this hurts or helps Seth? or is it too soon to tell...

BigFleccs said on December 18, 2013 at 3:52 p.m.

Sage_Liebert or you both are a dum as. 1. His reply is to sarif2soon #6 (the guy that said "Ultra Nerfed Fighter IV"). I said Seth is nerfed to trash which he is. (Deep down i dgaf i am a Ryu and Chun li player. Learn to read dummy!

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 3:59 p.m.

I like giving him unique changes or better normals or creative stuff like that. Making his hop kick do some neat stuff would be pretty neat as long as it wasn't gimmicky. Or maybe give his heavy axe kick some cool property as well.

That said I don't disagree with Ryu buffs, he needed something. I'm cool with stuff as long as they don't get something truly insane.

BigFleccs said on December 18, 2013 at 4 p.m.

Over all you noob lame who ever you are if you can't play, a delayed wake up, or nerfed character is not gone help you. Us rapers will rape you in the next edition also vortex or not.

BigFleccs said on December 18, 2013 at 4:02 p.m.

Noobs started with hit n run in vanilla, then turtleing, not to mention lag and boosting. It's not gone help. Real recognize real and real recognize fake.

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 4:10 p.m.


sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 4:11 p.m.

5 tournaments:
3 of which Kazunoko was a part of a team that included fuudo, tokido and bonchan.
1 in Canada Cup by xiao hai and he wasn't even used in grand finals.
1 in sf 25th anniversary japan qualifier by Daigo.

Captainbuttocks said on December 18, 2013 at 4:56 p.m.

I don't mean to be rude or anything but Theory Fighter or not, a Seth user does know what these changes mean on paper. I have used Seth since day 1 and these aren't changes that may look different in practice. If it were frame changes, Id agree but Capcom is changing movesets completely.

The only people who complain about Seth being overpowered are those who do not take the time to learn meter options etc. Heck even a friend of mine complains a lot but we he does beat me plenty of times after reading me well.

I don't know about Sarif, but I for one am not complaining about wanting buffs, just leave Seth as is.

In vanilla, people complained about seth running away so much. Now, they complain because he is up in your face.

coddog said on December 18, 2013 at 4:58 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

Captainbuttocks said on December 18, 2013 at 4:59 p.m.

and hats off to people that follow all the character tournament wins up to date. Pretty incredible. I forget my name at least once a month.

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 5:04 p.m.

2-The time between regular and delayed wake-up is so short (12 frames), he wouldn't be able to go into another aerial mix-up (which is what a Seth would want) and instead will have to resort to pressure and/or a 1-dimensional sort of mix-up.

3-It does have its usefulness, but what Capcom is doing in terms of balance is buff in one place and nerf in another to compensate. He can't keep jb. hp and have the nerfs reverted, and if I were to choose, I would take it away to revert the nerfs since it's the most unnecessary move (or the far standing heavy punch).

4-Seeing how anti-airing with Ultra 2 lands you 9 hits, I think it's better for the other player to just jump if they feel like it since a 9-hit raw UW Ultra 2 does 168 damage at best. That's less than a jumping roundhouse to crouching roundhouse combo. I say go with one Ultra.

5-I never said Seth was special. In fact, I believe the way this game should be balanced is by buffing everyone who needs it, including Seth. And I've said it on several occasions. But now in Ultra, he's getting batterred so bad with nerfs even haters think it's unfair.

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 5:06 p.m.

I don't remember; I just made a list. (more like statistics)
I've uploaded it to Shoryuken's forums but it's not working right now. I have the list on my laptop.

sarif2soon said on December 18, 2013 at 5:09 p.m.

Something I've learned:
If you ask for more than you need, and the other person listens, there are two scenarios:
-You get what you asked for.
-You get less, A.k.a. what you need (or more).

Ask for buffs.

Captainbuttocks said on December 18, 2013 at 5:15 p.m.

That's pretty smart. Its a win win I guess.

djm0001 said on December 18, 2013 at 6:01 p.m.

this is my last post, we've all typed way too much today lol

I think you guys will be seeing a lot more get in/get out then stay out Seth play and ensuing complaints in Ultra, at least if Seth stays this way

It's all good Captain buttocks, no rudeness taken, I can respect where you guys are coming from as Seth player's, but from my point of view I just think people really need to allow this game to settle down and get some actual miles on it before determining which characters are viable or not. Wasn't trying to say guys have the wrong idea of balance or are whining for Seth buffs from his AE 2012 version

Think about it this way, character A vs. Character B ( any match up, some will have more significant differences than others )...

Playing as character A today in AE2012, you have a general strategy/game plan/etc, against character B. You know which moves you want to use, what to avoid, what to exploit, etc. So now we see a changelist for Ultra, you see Character A's nerfs and buffs, as well as the other system mechanics ( delay wakeup, red focus, UW ). Character B also has their respective changelist. Now you look at this match up and say to yourself "wow my Character A is really good/bad, this move got really good/bad" or whatever observation you make. Now you need to see what new stuff Character A can do, what stuff he can't do, how do the new mechanics add to his general gameplay. With all that new information, is it still best to play Character A with the same gameplan? Now we jump to Character B (remember there are like 40 other character B's...), going through the exact same process, with all THEIR new tech, can they shutdown my options, what is THEIR new gameplan? Do I need to rethink Character A's strategy against this character B? Maybe the moves I thought I wanted buffed, really don't matter because Character B has _____ ( some options to stuff it). The list goes on

I'm just saying, there is A LOT going on right now from AE2012 to Ultra and I can't see how someone can say they already know where a character will stand. Yes my overall view is that Seth is getting unecessary nerf's, but I have no clue how the rest of the game is going to play.

logitech2059 said on December 18, 2013 at 6:17 p.m.

"But the part that makes the least sense with that comment is that characters like Juri and Ken get a truckload of buffs and are no worse than Evil Ryu."

Oh can people get over Kens buffs he NEEDS it to compete with the rest of the cast. Ken has never been top tier and has stuggled so hard to compete with top tier characters in every single version of SF4.
Lets compare Ken to Ryu for a second:
1-Ryu has MUCH better hadokens then Ken in every single possible way, but thats not surprising since this is Ryus specialty.
2-Ryus shoryuken is alot better then kens shoryuken overall this i dont understand?? Kens HP shoryuken sucks as an anti-air it either trades or just simply gets outright beaten. Kens MP Shoryuken has a 4 frame startup and the first hit does not knock the opponent in the air which makes the second hit whiff sometimes. Again Ryu's MP Shoryuken has a 3 frame startup and the first hit knocks the open in the air. The lp version and ex version i would say they both have advantage and disadvantages so i'll call it a draw.
3- Ryus ground tatsu is Way better then Kens. It's faster and knocks you down while Kens puts you at negative frames and 50/50 situations. Some times the first hit on Kens tatsu at certain distance hits and the rest of the move whiffs because its so slow, they need to fix it. Kens air ex tatsu is better then Ryu's tho.
4- Ryu can combo his sweep with nearly EVERY single normal. Ken gets ONE sweep combo from his standing jab and everybody is freaking out!
5-Ryu has a 2 hit normal (solar Plexus) which is GREAT for punishing focus attack spammers. Ken has NO two hit normals which means you can focus through EVERYTHING. This is Kens biggest weakness. Yes he can use ex tatsu but that burns meter and a decent player will know how to space correctly and dash back and puninsh you, and if you do connect his ex tatsu again your at a 50/50 situation.. Ryu has ex hadoken and regular tatsu which again KNOCKS DOWN something Ken lacks.
6- Overall Ryu's combos do more damage then Ken. He has a faster walk speed and ALOT more ways to land his ultra. And lets not forget his super is also much better then Kens.
Yes Ken has Kara throw but big woop once you have enough experience against a Ken player its pretty easy to tech.

I can continue going on with this list but i will conclude by reminding you guys that CAPCOM said themselves that when compared to RYU Ken has ALOT of DEFICIENCIES which is why they gave Ken these buffs. So get over Kens buffs he had a 7 frame sweep in AE and was never an issue the only thing they need to do is add 1 more negative frame on block and thats it.

keebler said on December 18, 2013 at 6:29 p.m.

You speak specifics like Seth's "9 hit UW ultra 2 damage 168"in such exact terms. None of the double ultra scaling has even been set yet.

Regardless, Seth is really not losing options and options are His specialty. Having a vortex character with a crossup HK was absurd and its way overdue that it will now be MK. Stun nerfs are no different than the rest of the cast's nerfs with similar stun output. Now he will need one or two extra knockdown mixups to get a dizzy. He will still be a viable character.

And people need to stop bringing up a characters tournament wins as a benchmark for being a solid character. As someone else stated, balrog has had a few more wins than the rest of the cast thanks to PR rog. Dee jay took out all of team Canada at Canada cup. Oni is wrecking people in topanga thanks to wao. Just because Seth is underrepresented in the pro scene means nothing in itself.

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 6:34 p.m.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying Ken needs no buffs (he doesn't need everything and a 70 damage fireball) my point was he has a ton of them and most people aren't saying anything. Ken isn't a bad character, not quite as good as Ryu IMO, but he's not bad. Better mixup options with a powerful kara grab and a good range on his DP. Ryu's DP has a lower arc.

Ken is more of a mixup character and he needs some buffs, but he isn't terrible. Also Ken has a slow sweep (which got buffed) and a fast cr mk at 4 frames. The fastest shoto cr mk by far.

Gurpwnder said on December 18, 2013 at 6:48 p.m.

He was making that point in response to me, most likely, because I suggested a nerf to E.Ryu, a character considered lower-mid tier.

logitech2059 said on December 18, 2013 at 7:03 p.m.

I know Ken isn't a bad character but at high level play it's difficult to win with Ken especially when vsing the current top tier characters. Xian even said himself when it comes to high level play it is very difficult for Ken to win and even said momochi is wasting his talent by using a character like Ken.
Yes Ken has a better arc on his HP DP but overall Ryu has better uppercuts. Again yes they both have advantage and disadvantages but Overall Ryu's is better and this shouldn't be the case since Ryu's Specialty are his Hadokens and Kens Specialty are his DP or used to be his DP..
Yes Ken has a 4 frame cr mk but again it doesn't have the same active frames as Ryu's cr mk and the hit box is not as good as Ryu's cr mk test it yourself in training mode. And don't forget to add the fact he doesn't have true block strings when canceled into a hadoken so realy again Ryu's is still much better.
I know Ken isn't a bad character but he does have alot of deficiencies when compared to RYU.

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 7:10 p.m.

I agree with this so much. People just jump on the latest flavor of the month. I mean higher tiered characters definitely have a higher chance of winning, but a player doing extraordinarily well with a character one night doesn't mean they're top tier. You also have to take into account character familiarity and sample size. I don't consider Gen and Oni top tier either, but they had a lot of things people didn't anticipate. Evil Ryu in my opinion is roughly mid tier give or take. Some say a bit lower, some say a bit higher. Which is fine.

ThaBigDaddyCMaster said on December 18, 2013 at 7:20 p.m.

I feel the same way about Evil Ryu, but I don't think Ken is a bad character, decent, but not bad. Anyways my point was not about Ken or him not needing any buffs, it was about something else so it's all good.

Sage_Liebert said on December 18, 2013 at 7:36 p.m.

I don't wine over changes, I just play. Luckily, my favorite character is Sagat, so as of the new changes I'm good unless they change him again. Oh, and Cody my 2nd got more buffs to.

Seth has more options than any characters I play with and more than half the roster. He's less safe now, but with the same options. Stop crying.

keebler said on December 18, 2013 at 8 p.m.

Your whole argument is flawed because you are comparing ryu and ken as if they have the same gameplan. Of course kens fireball is slower , he isn't a zoning shoto. And kens tatsu isn't worse for not knocking down and being negative. Kens tatsu is really only used as ex and usually as the ender of a damaging combo, and It puts ken in your face ready for a mixup, leading to a frame trap, kara throw, or counterhit shoryu into full ultra 1. Kens sweep also leads to the same mixup off of very ambiguous jumpins...ryus mixup off sweep is hit in front or tatsu lol.

The only reason ken wasn't rockin people in AE was because if you wanted to play a high pressure character in the competitive scene, you picked one of the twins, simple as that. With his current safe sweep and ultra buff, ken is going to have one of the most damaging okizeme mixups in the game.

Captainbuttocks said on December 18, 2013 at 8:23 p.m.

Ironically, its crying that is getting Seth to be ass in Ultra. :/ Hes never really been safe tho. But that's an argument I prefer not to get into.

Oh well. Lets just wait till Ultra comes out. :D

I use sagat too :D

Sage_Liebert said on December 18, 2013 at 9:53 p.m.

true. I always wonder who are the one's complaining. At this point you would think all casual or "noobs" would be gone. I would imagine decent players wouldn't complain. as for me calling him a crybaby I don't really mean it, it's just to spice up the post.

People sleeping on the new Fuerte buffs. That's what they should be focused on.

acku said on December 19, 2013 at 12:59 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

devilcuco said on December 19, 2013 at 2:18 a.m.

Are You trolling me?

Xiao hai is a cammy player, he just piked yun to counter pick dalshim in top 16 once. That's yun winning a tournament? Really?

Daigo won 25th anniversary qualifier with ryu he used yun against a yang winning 1-0 probably just for fun. No one won with yun, thats a fact.

And IN TEAM TOURNAMENTS like Canada cup kazunoko yun was not even playing in finals because sagat and akuma beat everyone. The joke here is that they are buffing sagat and toning down akuma, but overnerfing yun?

Yun has been dominating all tourneys since v.2012 he clearly deserves nerfs as you proved it. >>

shadey said on December 19, 2013 at 2:43 a.m.

Man I love these 'red' focuses.. Look much better than the real thing IMO.

perfume said on December 19, 2013 at 3:02 a.m.

At everyone crying about nerfs to Seth, I have three things to say. Nobody feels sorry for you, Seth deserves the nerfs, and yes, he's a top tier, vortex character. Saying he's not top based on tournament placings is like saying viper isn't top tier because she hasn't won a tournament in a while. Smh. Seth got nerfed for a reason. Either drop the character or deal with it like the rest of who actually play characters that don't rely on fraudulent vortexes. Now you have to actually think when you play Seth.

Captainbuttocks said on December 19, 2013 at 4:21 a.m.

lmao, anti-seth propaganda at its finest, after a page worth of discussion on this exact issue.

BigFleccs said on December 19, 2013 at 6:53 a.m.

I keep seeing player are "slept on." As if they have potential but we don't know. There are some characters weak and strong I just don't want to play. There are characters I have never even picked aside from doing their trials. Some time I will get an interest in a character or even lose interest in. There are some I will never have interest in. Bison, thawk, mokoto, ONI, guy, Blanka, Dhalsim, Cody, yang are a few that will never get picked by my aside from trials or to get a trophy. There is someone out there that mains or love these characters.

BigFleccs said on December 19, 2013 at 6:54 a.m.

Hakan has been picked by the CPU for me if I wasn't in the room the first match starting to play.

djm0001 said on December 19, 2013 at 7:54 a.m.

I used to feel the same way about Oni, I definitely recommend giving him some game time though, he's a very fun character in my opinion and he's a lot stronger than most believe he is. Same goes for Cody ( to a lesser degree ), especially when your opponent tries to push buttons when you're in their face

Kaxner said on December 19, 2013 at 7:59 a.m.

Capcom: "We want every character to be viable".

I wonder what's Capcom's definition of "viable". In my worthless opinion, the character with the lowest health is only viable if he's strong enough to make up for that. Maybe "viable" is some form of inside joke.

sarif2soon said on December 19, 2013 at 10:35 a.m.

"Seth has more options than any characters I play with and more than half the roster."

That's like saying someone is the luckiest around for having more gifts than anyone else, even though the gifts are filled with poop.

Saying he has a lot of tools is no argument. Have you analyzed the tools?

sarif2soon said on December 19, 2013 at 10:38 a.m.

I'm on your side, just didn't make it clear enough.

lowti3rgod said on December 19, 2013 at 1:18 p.m.

happy for rose now I can play even more lame with her. rose for the shotos..

doomfanatiq said on December 19, 2013 at 5:13 p.m.

@82 seth have good tools... 3 frame spd, 5 frame dp with most invincibility, wall jump, spin kick ex over fb, tanden engine to pull opponents , his tools are designed to compensate for his lack of mobility to play footsies, certainly not poop though


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