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Proximity block option select mega roundup - tons of setups for the SSF4 AE v2012 cast

Posted by Catalyst
December 1, 2013 at 6:53 p.m. PST
We've rounded up a ton of the proximity block option select (PBOS) videos our users have sent in. Below you'll find clips for C. Viper, Gen, Yun, Yang, Rufus, Chun-Li, Ibuki, Zangief, Ken, Dudley, Cammy, Fei Long, Ryu, Cody, Guy and Vega showcasing multiple setups.

The first video in this collection is from Redwolf and it has multiple PBOS setups for C. Viper, using her ultra and special moves.

Hit the jump to see many more.

Redwolf also showed multiple PBOS setups for Gen, mixed in with some match and combo footage.

Giving the opponent something else to think about ErDeM2206 uploaded a PBOS setup for Yun involving his dive kick. You can also find a similar setup for Rufus and Yang below.

More PBOS videos for Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition v2012


Cody, Vega, Ryu, Cammy and Guy PBOS setups from Javits.

Rufus and Yang dive kick PBOSes by ErDeM2206.

Chun-Li PBOS by RnK|Werrio.

Ibuki OS/PBOS by ErDeM2206.

• Plasma3D showed a couple of PBOS setups for Zangief that work on the opponent's wake up .

M. Bison PBOS from Yubiken.

Ken and Dudley PBOS from ShoryuSengan.

Cammy PBOS by LcK Zero.

• Slam Jam has a short video showing PBOS setups being baited and punished.

Fei Long PBOS by Nevillebamshew.

• Smokemonster2 has two setups for Ryu and Dudley involving their ultras.

• Joutai showed a couple of setups for Ken.

• The Tokido Blog showcased a number of PBOS setups performed by RZR|Fuudo and Kazunoko.

Submitted by Jpereztellez89, Sephirosuy, Sarif2soon, LavellUp, ShaunJS and JyuuinShitau.

Comments

SonicfanQ said on December 1, 2013 at 6:56 p.m.

I almost forgot about this garbage..... I hope capcom is going to remove this crap from the game...

#1
sarif2soon said on December 1, 2013 at 7:16 p.m.

"Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair."
-David Sirlin.

I say we let this in the game and try to find a solution to it ourselves.

#2
stormblazer said on December 1, 2013 at 7:17 p.m.

I don't get what's going on in the viper video at all. Sometimes it just cuts away like it didn't work. Both players are viper so it makes it hard to see if it was blocked or baited or if it hit correctly. So confusing

#3
derpycat said on December 1, 2013 at 7:34 p.m.

We're getting a new version of the game next year. We don't need to have a peasant mentality about PBOS. It's a brainless, illegitimate mechanic that adds 0 value to the game, so it should be removed come Ultra.

#4
YoraiDragon said on December 1, 2013 at 7:50 p.m.

I now dub this, NPC HARDEST MODE MECHANICS. You know how stupid it is on the hardest mode in arcade. That is all. - Yorai Dragon

#5
Remondo02 said on December 1, 2013 at 11:34 p.m.

First, the mechanic is broken.
Second, it's a bad idea to used it just because it changes your gameplay plan/style.

#6
deus said on December 2, 2013 at 12:42 a.m.

Its easily baited by s.lp or even focus backdash. The videos shown are when it works against c.mks or s.HP lol I hope this is removed from the game but if it's not then I'm not phased. Its a risky os thats easily baited n punished so whatever

#7
sergio_reyes_ said on December 2, 2013 at 2:54 a.m.

exelent photo

#8
bigfellr said on December 2, 2013 at 4:58 a.m.

I dnt see how effective this will be if you jst hold down back, Or dnt press anything.
Isn't this somewhat related to footsie anyway?

If ppl love to abuse normals why is it cheap or broken if someone buffers ultra.
Isn't thats why the first few frames of invincibility on startup of ultras are good.

@sonicfaq says the guy how uses gouken.
I play/ play against and watch most gouken and they are all the same. They like to mash back dash on wakeup , in block strings, they choke a lot and abuse his normals hence that's why you think this is unfair? Gutter trash

#9
mercurian said on December 2, 2013 at 5:03 a.m.

Alioune has come up with proximity's that don't get baited by jabs.

People have created proximity OS on wakeup and if you do anything EXCEPT block you get tagged with a combo or your reversal is blocked. And they have made it for characters like Makoto, where blocking on wakeup is suicide.

It's a game breaker.

#10
deus said on December 2, 2013 at 6:31 a.m.

Alioune's videos are of Sagat vs Sagat doing PBOS dp which can be baited out by focus back dash. LoL.

Anyway, of course - OS and PBOS work on certain setups but what I'm saying is that not every OS or PBOS will punish accordingly because they can be baited out. Akuma vs Dictator is a good example of this - Akuma OS against Dictator but it really depends on if you guess correctly. The same is with PBOS, it will only work depending on what your opponent does and the majority of PBOS that's available can easily be baited and then punished. It's a fact.

IMO PBOS is not a game breaker however it does change the tier list in terms of matchups. Rufus, Vega, Cody, Dictator, Boxer and Sim IMO will now have a hard time against any shoto with a strong DP. But, that's how it is for the short term. People will learn to adapt and strengthen their weaknesses. Mind you, it's not like all matchups will change dramatically, just a few.

If this mechanic doesn't get taken out of the game then that's fine. Everyone will have to grow up, learn, apply and continue to innovate. PBOS and OS can be baited out and punished and both these Option Selects will punish a lot of moves <- besides the point.

#11
JIHADJOE said on December 2, 2013 at 6:33 a.m.

^ do you have a link to the Makoto setup?

#12
mercurian said on December 2, 2013 at 6:42 a.m.

I see what you're saying.

I think i mainly don't like it because things like the wakeup POS make a game that is already a bit too defensive even more defensive.

Also that it kinda defeats the purpose of recovery, which feels wrong.

#13
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 8:35 a.m.

Are you some kinda special idiot?!?!? You have to be if you can see why this is BAD for the game. I don't know what kinda trash goukens you have been playing but don't act like you know how all goukens play. Your post is GUTTER TRASH! GTFOH With that lame crap...

#14
bigfellr said on December 2, 2013 at 8:50 a.m.

Look at your comment you sound like a retart.

You call me an idiot without providing anything about the argument.

If you say this is bad why dnt you look at yourself and realise how bad you are.
The only trash gouken is you.

All you do is complain about stuff when you're no better off.

Is this how gouken players are? Complain because they dnt have a dp.

#15
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 8:54 a.m.

If you CAN'T see. Edit for my last post. I can't stand people with the blind mindset "if a problem occurs lets adapt to it" While thats a good mindset to have for general legit problems, this situation is different. This glitch ruins the game allowing you to do something YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO. If this game is to be taken serously it should be removed.

I can't stand overly blind optimistic idiots who would prob allow Unblockables to stay in along with PBOS, While we are at it why don't we add in Roll canceling from CVS2. We can ADAPT to it. leave it alone..... You people make me wana be done with fighting games gosh....

#16
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 9 a.m.

thats 2 ...2 gutter trash post from you Ha ha ha..... I would hate to meet you in person because your prob annoying as hell. You don't know a dam thing about me. There is nothing to prove. This GLITCH should be removed simply put but if it was up to idiots like you we would still have unblockables along with this crap. Please just kill yourself and do us a favor... Also never meet me in person because I would most certainly have to beat your face in. I have a low tolerance for Stupidity...

#17
I_Are_RaBBiT said on December 2, 2013 at 9:17 a.m.

This. All. Day. Long.

#18
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 9:19 a.m.

Its not a Mechanic is a GLITCH and GLITCHS should be Removed. Street fighter 4 is one the few fighting games I have respect for and I don't want it getting ruined with Stupid Glitchs. I hope capcom gets rid of this crap and I hope they are hard at work getting rid of unblockables. I really enjoy playing this game and I want honest legit play. If this game stops providing that I will move on.....

#19
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 9:20 a.m.

Indeed sir!!!!!!!!!! I could NOT agree more

#20
deus said on December 2, 2013 at 10:30 a.m.

in ST - the common crossup was actually a glitch and look at how that's an integral part of the SF series.

sure, PBOS is a broken "glitch" which can be mechanised into the user's arsenal. whether this glitch is broken or not broken to you, doesn't matter to me. what matters to me, is what Capcom thinks about the PBOS and what they plan on doing to it.

i'm not apart of the group that says "I want an honest game, none of this OS and unblockable BS!!!1", IMO if you want an honest game (ps, WTF does that mean, I don't know lol just see that used by wingers all the time on EH) then play SFxT .. or .. better yet, play ST.

if Ultra has PBOS, unblockables, OS or any other glitches or mechanics then people need to either learn and adapt or give up. N note, that it's not the game that made them quit - those morons chose to quit and they didn't supply reasons for their disengagement but excuses.

my point like before: have an opinion but regardless, accept what SF is and play it, enjoy it, learn from it and grow by yourself and or with the rest of the competitive FGC. ps personally, I dislike this PBOS and hope it gets taken out :D but, if it's in then accept it and move on.

#21
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 10:43 a.m.

I don't know what other people mean by an HONEST game but Ill tell you what I mean. What I mean is I want a game where all the mechanics work the way is suppose to work. I want a game where smart play is rewarded and hardwork pays off due to a solid fighting system which caters to all characters. I want a game free of retarded glitchs like PBOS and unblockables which ruin honest play and causes unfair broken situations which should NOT happen. I want an HONEST well working game. Thats what the hell I mean when I say that. You know for some reason I KNEW you would bring up the cross up being a glitch and honestly that was a very special situation that rarely happens. Cross ups are very different then PBOS and unblockables because you could very easily deal with them by blocking the other way. It made the game less linear and has been accepted for a long time. You can't honestly compare cross ups to PBOS and unblockables which are just plain bad glitchs which need to be removed.

#22
smkmns said on December 2, 2013 at 12:02 p.m.

Both SFXT and ST have option selects, and vortexes even (see Vega in ST).

What I'm really wondering is, why all the crying over these option selects, and not the other option selects people have been using for years? I think the problem is most people crying here are uninformed and just assume that risking a normal at mid range will automatically lead to PBOS and death every single time.

How about, being more cautious about whiffing normals in someone's face/failing whiff punishes? Not throwing stupid fireballs? Or actually blocking on wakeup (should be easier with delayed wakeup) instead of mashing an attack or backdash, making you vulnerable to option selects?

#23
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 12:33 p.m.

I personally don't have a problem with regular basic option selects because they pretty much in alot of fighting games anyway plus they don't cover every situation like for example. I get a hard knock down on Bison and im playing gouken. I do a safe jump set up and I buffer ex tastu for an option select but Bison teleports back and I go flying in the air. Option selects don't always cover every option and you sometimes have to make the best OS based on how your opponent plays. That was a safe jump option select but this can be said for Meaty option selects and ground buffer option selects and throw tech option selects.

Honestly I would like the input window to be shortened but thats prob not going to happen but still Regular option selects don't ruin the game. This PBOS is retarded because it cancels the recovery of your normal in a freaking ultra lol so stupid lolol. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CANCEL THE RECOVERY OF YOUR NORMAL INTO AN ULTRA.

#24
sarif2soon said on December 2, 2013 at 1:28 p.m.

This "peasant mentality" is based on hard facts. Glitches and tactics are always found, but a counter is found as well later on. That's a fact you can't deny.

5 years have passed since SF4 came out and only now this has been discovered. The FGC, and in turn the SF4 community, is growing, so there is no doubt that there are lab monsters hitting the training room right now with a "peasant mentality" trying to discover counters to the PBOS, and we'll have it in way less than 5 years.

And what the PBOS adds is another layer of mindgames to footsies. I'm quite sure that throws were considered to be a "brainless, illegitimate mechanic that adds 0 value to the game" during SF2 days.

#25
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 3:44 p.m.

Wow..... You know what. I give up you guys win... lol this is just too funny. Whatever happens with street fighter 4 im going to stick with it because I can't stop playing this game. It will be up to capcom to decide what to take out or not. I WILL ADAPT! No matter how stupid this game gets I WILL ADAPT lololol. Its whatever.... No mater what happens Me and gouken will still try to win. Its impossible to say anything to you guys and I still firmly beleive in my opinion but whatever happens happens. Im done with this. Im just going to sit back and watch for now on....

#26
derpycat said on December 2, 2013 at 4:33 p.m.

I don't think you understand the term "peasant mentality". Your thought process is based on the assumption that you'll take what you're given, and you'll bloody well like it, even if it's objectively and obviously a terrible thing. Capcom is currently updating the game, and the new version won't be free. It'll be the third time that the same core game is sold to consumers. Why actively defend them keeping a stupid mechanic in the game for this new paid version? We can ask Capcom to remove this glitch right now, and even if USF4 gets released with PBOS still intact, we have the power to refuse to buy the product. You seem to think that we owe Capcom something, or that we deserve less than we're entitled to. This isn't true, and moreover, we're the ones who decide if they deserve money or not. Should we be the ones who have to deal with a problem in the product that we purchase? No, because this is what we would call a "peasant mentality". In fact, player reactions to the game, and volume of sales, is precisely why Capcom are releasing an update. Feedback, like "please remove this broken tactic", is precisely what they want. Your attitude is very much counter-productive, and frankly, apathetic.

The issue of the legitimacy of PBOS is quite clear-cut. Since nobody in the FGC rates PBOS positively due to it's cheapness, we can call it "illegitimate". At best, some players are neutral on the issue, and are presumably defending it just so that the playerbase doesn't diminish. The majority of players see it for what it is - an undesirable glitch. It lets the game do the thinking for you, and a dumb fighting game is a completely obsolete one. The tools to fight PBOS aren't as effective as they should be, and PBOS itself is far too rewarding for what it is. There certainly are positive and exciting "bugs" in fighting games, but PBOS isn't one of them. It's ridiculous to try and pretend that all the unintentional tech in fighting games are the same. Some bugs have entertainment value, and some bugs ought to be removed - especially if the most perfect opportunity for them to be removed arises, like, say, if the game were being updated for a new retail release.

#27
bigfellr said on December 2, 2013 at 5:34 p.m.

And still yet still you never replied to me how game breaking this is *facepalm*

Idiot is acceptable for you, maybe that's how most gouken players are.
Bunch of whiny idiots

#28
bigfellr said on December 2, 2013 at 5:42 p.m.

Everyone look at this stupid post.
He wants sf to be played in a certain way.
This right here needs to piss off.
Look how stupid you are.

You dnt see you come of as ignorant?
This is you," I'm a whiny bjtch, boo I want sf to be played like this waahhhh wahhhhh. Remove this wahhhh, sf should be played like this wahhhhhh.
This is the mentality of most sf players now. They sound like this soniqfaq

#29
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 6:43 p.m.

Keep on hating lolololol

#30
HyperViperNZ said on December 2, 2013 at 6:52 p.m.

Still dont understand what exactly Proximity block is. I watch the videos and everything looks normal or isn't a big deal...

#31
SonicfanQ said on December 2, 2013 at 8:08 p.m.

You win sir YOU WIN! Im out lol!

#32
bigfellr said on December 2, 2013 at 8:11 p.m.

I'm explaining your comment.
As for you, you dnt even give a clear reason why you think this is game breaking even though this existed a long time ago.

You jst one of those ppl jumping on the bandwagon whinying like an ass.

Ppl were right about ultras being cheap and a big comeback mechanic jst like xfactor when the vanilla build was out.

#33
NYCraziSalvi516 said on December 2, 2013 at 8:52 p.m.

That's not true. The OS only comes if the person forces the block animation(proximity block) to happen. The jab didn't make the OS come out simply because they weren't in range to cause the block animation to come out. Its still stupid and should be removed but at least think before you speak.

#34
NYCraziSalvi516 said on December 2, 2013 at 8:57 p.m.

Another idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. The PBOS does not cancel a normal's recovery frames, it only comes out when you force the proximity block to come out. The normal can still be whiffed punished even if they PBOS.

#35
sarif2soon said on December 2, 2013 at 9:18 p.m.

"Your thought process is based on the assumption that you'll take what you're given, and you'll bloody well like it, even if it's objectively and obviously a terrible thing."

Actually, no.
-I'm against delayed wake-up.
-I'm against the Seth changes.

"You seem to think that we owe Capcom something, or that we deserve less than we're entitled to."

Another no right there. (Why do you keep assuming stuff about me?)
I see how much less work they're putting into the SF4 series than previous SF games, and I simply don't like it.
4 characters for a new version? 5 for another new version?

"The tools to fight PBOS aren't as effective as they should be"

That's why I'm saying we should HIT THE LAB and FIND ways.
With a proper counter, it can add another layer of mindgames to the meta, and that's something good in my opinion.

If within the next few months prior to Ultra's release we don't get some tech that counters it, I'll say "Fine, have it removed."
But until then, I'll be looking for exploits in the game, "bugs" just like PBOS, to counter it.

#36
sarif2soon said on December 2, 2013 at 9:22 p.m.

"I hope capcom is going to remove this crap from the game..."
Are definitely the words of someone who adapts and doesn't care about what happens.

"I'm eager to see proximity OS used in a high intensity match."
-Combofiend on Twitter.

Start "adapting" from now, hon'.

#37
derpycat said on December 2, 2013 at 9:55 p.m.

It doesn't have to be game-breaking, and it isn't particularly. It's just stupid. It's a disproportionately large reward for brainless play. It simply doesn't belong in a fighting game.

And, whiny idiots? Cool, I see we're doing ad hominems now. Forgive me for having a valid opinion, and caring about what goes into the game that I love. Nobody is whining, either. The new game isn't out yet, so now is the perfect time to opine about game mechanics, since we're getting an update that could change them (one that we pay for - I can't stress this enough!). "It's not game-breaking" is a terrible excuse to leave a stupid part of the game intact in the upcoming update. In fact, it doesn't even logically follow. You want to defend a mechanic because it isn't the worst thing that it possibly could be, but only pretty bad? Gee, just spread your legs for Capcom, why don't you. Even when Capcom asks what improvements you want, you just say "no no Capcom, you just give me whatever you want, and I'll gladly pay for it". It's actually incredible how willing you and others seem to be about accepting mediocre goods for your money.

Not a single valid defense of PBOS has been given. The arguments thusfar have been that "it isn't that bad" (as if this inherently makes PBOS a good thing), "other mechanics have been discovered accidentally" (even though any thoughtful person would see that individual mechanics need to be assessed on individual merit), "it has existed in the game for years" (completely irrelevant, since actual players only discovered the tech recently), "only pros and good players care" (this isn't a defense of PBOS so much as it is a defense of Capcom not doing anything about it). The stupidity of the tactic can be seen from a mile away by a day one scrub. You're countering a skilful footsie game with just any old whiffed normals followed by a mashed ultra, or whatever. No need for reactions, prediction, thinking, or anything - the game decides when your attack comes out. Sure, you can try and bait it, but imagine an actual high level game being finished with a PBOS ultra. It would be 100% undeserved.

#38
derpycat said on December 2, 2013 at 10:02 p.m.

You ask why I keep assuming stuff about you, when you give evidence for exactly what I'm saying.

""The tools to fight PBOS aren't as effective as they should be"

That's why I'm saying we should HIT THE LAB and FIND ways."

You're literally admitting that PBOS is unfair. That's exactly what you're saying here. And instead of telling Capcom about how unfair it is, you want to congratulate them by buying another version of the game with the same unfair mechanic in it. We can try and fix the problem ourselves, or Capcom could do it's job and give us a good product. You object to my assumptions, but you're really not giving a good case for yourself.

Even if we eventually find a tool to counter this tech (bear in mind it took us 5 years to even discover/see the effectiveness of PBOS), it doesn't nullify the fact that any victories with PBOS will have been unskillful. SF4 is a fun game with a great array of already working, and proven tools. What I'd love is for distractions and glitches to be removed.

#39
deus said on December 2, 2013 at 10:25 p.m.

"You can't honestly compare cross ups to PBOS and unblockables which are just plain bad glitches which need to be removed"

See that's where i find is the problem because you're comparing glitches subjectively. you call some glitches good and some glitches bad. objectively, i can compare them easily because i don't see one glitch as good and another as bad. i simply see them all as glitches.

other then that, i see the other points you've made and can understand what you mean when you say an "honest game". most of the people on EH that have made the comment about an honest game have always made copious amounts of excuses and unproductive comments towards new tech. cheers!

#40
derpycat said on December 2, 2013 at 10:43 p.m.

So, why does the fact that they're all glitches make any difference to anything? That's irrelevant to good gameplay. Each mechanic, whether it's a glitch or not, needs to be judged on individual merit. If one glitch has value, and another is trash, then that is all that matters. In a skill-based game, if one glitch makes you win with skill, and another glitch makes you win without, then one of them objectively has more value than the other. It's absolutely fine to say you'll still play Ultra if it contains PBOS. But it's a completely different thing altogether to not care whether Capcom remove it or not during the development of Ultra, especially when we have a chance to be heard, and to affect development. That's apathy - it's the attitude of someone who doesn't care about the game. Some of us definitely do care.

#41
sarif2soon said on December 2, 2013 at 10:53 p.m.

"You're literally admitting that PBOS is unfair."

It's only unfair if there is no suitable counter.
What I want is to make it fair, counterable and part of the meta.

"it doesn't nullify the fact that any victories with PBOS will have been unskillful."

The same could be said about any OS, if you mean "exploiting the game's mechanics to your advantage" by "unskillful".

#42
deus said on December 2, 2013 at 10:57 p.m.

SFxT and ST having option selects and vortex is a given which everyone in the FGC knows. It's also a given that SFxT and ST at it's core require strong fundamentals - mainly footsies and a strong ground game to succeed. whereas, in SF4, certain characters, for example - Seth, does not require strong footsies at all. In SFxT or ST you can't rely on OS or Vortex to win your games - you must strong fundamentals to win.

IMO no one is actually crying or terribly upset about PBOS although I can understand why you would say that as it helps emphasise your POV. IMO there's a large majority of elite players that aren't keen on PBOS and they were never keen on the first series of OS in the first place either. then there are some elite players that haven't made any complaints on the PBOS tech that has been found. then there's the casual SF gamers that are for and against, IMO it has been 50/50 on EH n in my own FGC, most of my peers are for PBOS.

Dhalsim, Rufus, Honda and Vega will suffer tremendously vs shoto. DJ, Guy, Abel, Blanka and Rose will suffer a slightly vs shotos. IMO Sim vs Abel is now 9 - 1 to Abel.

like i said before, I truly don't care if PBOS is left in the game although I do hope it's taken out. mainly, i hope it's taken out because it makes certain match-ups virtually impossible. most of the people that want PBOS, want it because it helps their character n i understand it, anything that is powerful that helps one's cause is going to be desired.

- don't whiff normals. don't throw stupid fireballs. block on wakeup.

don't whiff normals - eat chip damage from specials (fireballs, tigerknee, spiral arrow, machine gun blow, thunder knuckle)
- don't throw stupid fireballs - don't do anything that's considered stupid
- block on wake up - eat an unblockable, get chip damaged to death, eat a mixup where you have to 50/50 block high/low/tech which means you can get hit by a normal, special, counter hit etc.

anyway, IMO you haven't made any valid points against anything I have said. the only thing i can agree on is - don't throw stupid fireballs. 16 out of the cast throw fireballs and SF4 has been out since 2008 so you would hope that people would know not to throw stupid fireballs :D

again, SFxT n ST require strong fundamentals, which I'm sure the majority of people understand or know. using vortex in SFxT and ST is available but isn't required from the entire cast whereas in SF4 pretty 70% or more of the cast can vortex, given the circumstances, 60% or more can do unblockables n the entire cast can OS / PBOS. unblockables IMO should be taken out UNLESS the entire cast can do it. PBOS n OS, like I said before - i don't care. if it's in, it's in. if not then learn it n move on.

#43
deus said on December 2, 2013 at 11:07 p.m.

My reply wasn't to you. The person I made the comment to was saying that one glitch is good and the other glitch is bad. Obviously, he's saying this because he's thinking subjectively about how these glitches affect his character.

the fact that i'm writing on this forum participating in discussion obviously shows that i care to a degree. i'm not complaining or upset about about PBOS, OS or unblockables and won't ever complain about it if they're kept in the game or not.

"In a skill-based game, if one glitch makes you win with skill, and another glitch makes you win without, then one of them objectively has more value than the other"

for example - Bob uses Sagat and Jack uses Dhalsim. Dhalsim says PBOS is an ass glitch because it doesn't help him vs Sagat n that PBOS should be taken out of the game :'(. Bob says, PBOS is GDLK because it helps him zone n play more aggressive against Sim n that PBOS should be in Ultra!

That's not objective at all. That's totally subjective. If you're going to judge a glitch, then don't say that one is good and better than another - a glitch is a glitch. if you don't like ONE glitch but favor another then IMO you're an idiot. If you don't like PBOS glitch then you should want all the glitches out. Favoring glitches that suit you isn't objective lol

you can tell me that glitches that favor you are "GOOD" and glitches that don't favor you are "BAD" but IMO they're all glitches regardless of your subjective view of them being good or bad, to you.

#44
derpycat said on December 2, 2013 at 11:22 p.m.

My sentence is a tautology. In a game in which skill has positive value, a mechanic which requires skill is more valuable than a mechanic that doesn't require skill. This sentence is inherently true, regardless of context. I never talked about personal views, or matchup experience, or whatever. Your example completely misses the point. PBOS is too easy, and requires unskilled play. It doesn't matter if it makes my characters better or worse, what matters is that it's unskillful.

You've also missed my point about the term "glitch". The word implies nothing, and is irrelevant to a discussion about the value of gameplay mechanics. An easy example to counter your reasoning is to imagine a glitch that lets you win a match if you just pick a certain character's colour. That's also a "glitch", but it's obviously undesirable. Am I an idiot because I favour crossup play to this glitch? Again, individual mechanics require individual judgement of worth. "We should accept all glitches, because they're all glitches" is a meaningless sentence.

#45
derpycat said on December 2, 2013 at 11:42 p.m.

OK, if we hang on to the hope that we find a decent counter, and we do find one, it may well be intelligent. But it would still only be an intelligent counter to a very stupid tactic. It would be our very own band-aid for a problem in the game. Nobody really enjoys watching Cammy win right now, which is why Capcom is addressing the balance. Why do you hold on to the idea that the community has to solve the issue?

Even after we solve it, what'll happen is that for every single match you have against a new opponent, you'll have to put a stop to your footsies until you know their tendencies. You might punish them for PBOS one or two times, and then it won't be a part of the match anymore. So it might as well not exist in this scenario. Extending this scenario, he randomly uses it again at a point when you feel safe from it. Undeserved win for him, and again your footsies take a back seat until you feel safe to use them again. And you'll go through this with every new player you face. Every single PBOS win will still have been completely unskilled and undeserved, based on a very small incorrect guess by the loser. Metagame is great, so I understand what you're saying. But it's pointless if the actual game and its mechanics are trash.

Now, I have no huge grudge against a mechanic being unskillful BY ITSELF. It's when an unskillful tactic gives you a disproportionately large payoff, with little risk. Almost free wins with no suitable counters are clearly stupid. The same can't be said of all OSes because despite their ease, most don't completely smother intelligent play, and there already exist legitimate and proportionately heavy punishes to them.

#46
deus said on December 3, 2013 at 12:15 a.m.

Actually, my comment hits the point to a T. You just fail to realise it. It's only unskillful to you. Just because you consider an OS that works in your favor as "good" or "easy" or "hard" doesn't mean someone else views that same glitch in the exact same light.

A crossup in ST 'was' considered a glitch. Crossups were implemented thereon and are not glitches anymore so your comparison is not valid.

I never said "We should accept all glitches, because they're all glitches". What I said was that Ultra will be coming out soon and regardless of it having PBOS, OS, or Unblockables that players will have to either accept it or quit.

IMO, a glitch may seem GOOD to you and BAD to another person and it may seem EASY for you and to someone else it could seem HARD - essentially, it's besides the point whether it's easy, hard, good or bad - it is a glitch at it's core. And you can't deny that as it's a universal fact. What you can deny is whether it's requires skill or not and on that matter.

Personally on the subject of Unblockables, OS, PBOS, Glitches - if it's in Ultra then learn it and grow up or quit and if they're not in then again, learn the game and innovate or quit.

#47
SonicfanQ said on December 3, 2013 at 1:17 a.m.

Ha you know what I like how you guys talk alot of crap online but in my face you would NEVER talk like that. Id like to see you call me an idiot to my face punk. Id bash your face in. Ok I had a miss understanding of how it worked its confusing and its stupid. Still even as YOU SAID YOURSELF it needs to be removed. Even still I just don't care anymore remove it or not I will be playing Ultra

#48
bigfellr said on December 3, 2013 at 1:34 a.m.

You say it's not game breaking but you said its stupid? Wtf is that logic.

And yes you are a whiny idiot. You want sf to play a certain way which I say is bullcrap
You say I'm defending capcom, yet you are playng their games wtf is wrong with you.

I'm not defending them in anyway. What I'm against is ppl like you who what to change the game to be a specific type of fighting game.

You say if it's not game breaking then why is this all the fuss in the first place?
Bottom line is you want capcom to cater to how you play it, jst like how ppl complain about vortex being cheap.

Btw your opinion is not valid, jst more crying from cry babies like you

#49
bigfellr said on December 3, 2013 at 1:39 a.m.

Wow, Read your first couple of sentences.

Lol oh look this guy is a bad ass, I'm scared

#50
SonicfanQ said on December 3, 2013 at 1:48 a.m.

Well I hope Alioune will show him using cammy because it benefits her very well. He seems to have the glitch down to a science.

Regardless it would be nice if he would do his JOB and work on presenting a plan to removing PBOS from the game. This would be the PERFECT time seeing as Ultra is in the development stages. Capcom wants a game where there are no weak characters where everyone has a chance http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/se...

PBOS will only benefit certain characters and IIRC Charge characters can't really use it at all. Im done with this.

#51
deus said on December 3, 2013 at 2:03 a.m.

Dude, totally agree. Some people on this thread are just trolling. The basis of what you're saying, to me, is true. I hope they remove PBOS as well. Not crying about it n if its kept then fine. Over this thread too lol

#52
bigfellr said on December 3, 2013 at 4:17 a.m.

Are you implying I'm trolling?
If you want something removed, you are definitely crying about it.

It's fine both parties can disagree its mainly based on the players itself.
I use Dudley and balrog and have no issue with this,hell why dnt they remove cross ups aswell?
Dnt you think I'm batshjt crazy?

#53
NYCraziSalvi516 said on December 3, 2013 at 5:23 a.m.

But you're're complaining about it more than anyone. Also don't f*cking give me threats online just because you got caught not knowing what you were talking about, it makes you look like a tool lol.

#54
derpycat said on December 3, 2013 at 7:11 a.m.

Reply @deus #47

Your comment didn't follow logically from my argument. Your arguments were also entirely different from the ones you're now using. It's not my fault if I can't read your mind.

Yes, you might think that the matter of PBOS' skillfulness might be subjective, so let's investigate it. PBOS is a method by which you can force a certain kind of gameplay from an opponent, mostly once you've gained Ultra meter (i.e. been hit enough times). This gameplay involves fear of footsies - one of the core aspects of the fighting game genre, which involves good spacing, reactions, anticipation, timing, and knowledge. The actual application of PBOS involves mashing a certain string of buttons over and over again, with disregard to such elements of gameplay. The outcome of a successful PBOS can be the entire damage of a raw ultra. I think it would be rather cynical to define PBOS as "skillful", given this explanation (which you're free to object to, if you'll do it logically). How does it differ from other, similarly unskilled tactics? Most other option selects also require little skill other than being able to press buttons consistently. There are skillful counters, however. This means that in order for your option select to be successful, you need to apply thought. PBOS has no skillful, or proportionately good counters. This means you can almost fearlessly mash to your heart's content, and win based on your opponent's decision to bait.

Perhaps you'd like an explanation of why a fighting game is worthless without skill. A game by definition requires involvement from participants. Fighting games particularly rely on individual engagement, since they're about pitting one person against another - one mind vs another mind. Some mechanics are therefore more valuable by way of how much they involve you (i.e. make you think). We don't have to accept a new mechanic or glitch just because it exists, especially not when we can ask for its removal. A stupid glitch (one which rewards braindead activity) needs to be binned. A good glitch (one which adds another dimension to thoughtful play) needs to stay. PBOS falls into the braindead category, and therefore needs to go. does this follow? If you disagree, you need to show why any of the points in this paragraph are wrong. and not by way of calling me an idiot.

#55
derpycat said on December 3, 2013 at 7:12 a.m.

Reply @deus #47 contd.

Now again, you miss my point about the term "glitch". What exactly is your point about glitches? You've repeated yourself a number of times on this issue. Yes, glitches are glitches. Expand on this. What does that even mean? Why does it matter? You've yet to make any sort of point about the term "glitch", but you keep using the argument "glitches are glitches" as some sort of conclusive argument. You need to explain why.

Your last paragraph is something I might agree with if Ultra were already released. It isn't - that's why this topic is worth discussing at all, obviously! If this were 2014 and Ultra were already out, you would be right if you construed my posts as whiny and pointless. But Ultra isn't out, and it isn't finished, so the purpose in discussing PBOS is to figure out whether it's worth telling Capcom about it or not, so that they can or cannot do something about it! This should all be fairly straightforward. Again, and I can't seem to stress this enough - your attitude is completely fine in the context of a completed product. I won't be posting things like this once Ultra is out. If it comes out with PBOS intact, I will gladly either shut up and learn to adapt, or I will drop the game. But somehow one fact seems incomprehensible to some people; Ultra isn't finished, and the consumers have a voice. We're allowed to give feedback! "What I said was that Ultra will be coming out soon and regardless of it having PBOS, OS, or Unblockables that players will have to either accept it or quit." This is 100% true, but it's also completely irrelevant. Ultra coming out with PBOS is a hypothetical situation.

#56
derpycat said on December 3, 2013 at 7:23 a.m.

I see how it is. I lay out some concerns in a logical manner, and instead of responding sequentially, you'd rather throw around ad hominems and expletives. Very clever.

"You say it's not game breaking but you said its stupid? Wtf is that logic." Hm. Do I really need to show you why that's not illogical? Imagine for example if a character's taunt involved raping the opposing character. It's not game-breaking, and it doesn't even timer scam. See? a stupid mechanic that isn't game-breaking. Magic!

"You want sf to play a certain way" - refer to my above post about the point of a fighting game, or any game at all. Games require interaction from players. Button mashing with no thought requires no involvement. A game that can be won with less involvement from players is by definition a less worthwhile game than one that can be won primarily with skill. If I want to watch two characters going at it with very little thoughtful interaction on my part, I'll watch the CPU play itself.

"You say if it's not game breaking then why is this all the fuss in the first place?" - isn't it obvious? Capcom's developing an update. I want that update to be good, and since Capcom is opening the floor to suggestions, I'm providing one, with valid evidence to support my opinion. Ultra's not even out yet, so I can't see any way at all in which this is just random baying.

"Btw your opinion is not valid" - you need to give evidence why, and argue your case. You've literally ejaculated nothing but insults and nonsense.

#57
deus said on December 3, 2013 at 10:52 a.m.

I did not read the last three replies to me. No offense. Just came to check if Gouken dude wrote lol

#58
bigfellr said on December 3, 2013 at 11:35 a.m.

All this "this should be removed" sf shouldn't be played like this and should be played like that"
"Remove unblockables" "cammy is autopilot""vortex characters are cheap"
You dnt see this is complaining and whinning, after all this update is a request from these kind of ppl anyways.
Did you read my comment 53?

A fighting game is a fighting game. Everything you said still applies, you jst have to think on your part.
You say the game chooses itself yet how is the game going to work without the characters and the players.

You didn't get what I mean about game breaking did you.
You said this pbos is not game breaking then continue to say its stupid and should be removed, then on to saying it dumbs the play down and it's random.
Oh please tell me that's not a excuse to make the game easier for you.

I

#59
skeptical said on December 3, 2013 at 12:43 p.m.

There's a lot of anger and lashing out here. It's both embarrassing and hilarious. I like it.

#60
SonicfanQ said on December 3, 2013 at 3:09 p.m.

lololol

#61
SonicfanQ said on December 3, 2013 at 3:13 p.m.

lol Dude im done with this. Everyone have a nice day! Except "BigFAILr"

#62


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