Harada: There are many similarities between the communities surrounding Tekken, Street Fighter and Super Smash Bros.

A lot of people who play Capcom and Namco games (even a couple of top players) were hardcore Smash players, and many of the concepts necessary to master each game seem universal (e.g. knowing what your character can do, match-ups, combos, spacing, execution, etc). I will never understand why communities think Smash is not a "real" fighting game, when just like Street Fighter or Tekken, it can take years to even become decent.

There's even an article that attests to how much work the developers put into making Melee a hardcore fighting game:

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/08/sak...

Also, Google reviews of the game. Despite being the Gamecube's best-selling game, criticisms are that precise movement is difficult and takes time to learn, yet it has had a tournament scene since the early 2000s with big payout tournaments and tons of hype.

Oh, and Brawl is ass, but Sakurai dumbed it down ON PURPOSE, which he admitted to. He even says himself he knows Melee is still the most hardcore game in the series.

Comparing the FGC with a community full of autistic children who enjoy taunt parties. Makes sense by today's standards.

There was a harsh separation of players when Melee was relevant. I don't really know who threw the first blow, but the whole "fox only, final destination" thing ruined the reputation of the game. I just don't think there was good communication between the two different parties, professionals who wanted to engage in the core fighting mechanics and the profound movement, and casuals who wanted to just enjoy playing with friends. This killed Smash as a credible "fighting game".

It didn't help that high level Brawl wasn't nearly as fun as high level Melee was to play and watch.

I think the first time I realized Smash Bros was a real fighting game is when I played smash bros against a friend of mine who totally whooped my ass.

I was like, "whoa. There's actually high-level play in this game?"

Nowadays I stick to Street Fighter when I play against him so that I know I have a chance!

@2

Wow. Butthurt much?

Smash is a great game until you take it too seriously. That artificial need to be accepted as a competitive game is what I dislike about their community. Why don't just play the game as it is. They even have rules for their stupid taunt parties as #2 said, come on... Their Smash is a game inside a game.

I honestly don't even understand why this is a debate at all. Smash has it's own community, tournaments, and essentially everything else that other popular fighting games have, so it's on the same level in my book. And even if you don't personally think so, who really cares anyways? Regardless of how we feel about certain fighting games, shouldn't we as members of the FGC, support other games despite any bias we may possess? Beating games and their supporters down just stifles growth. That's what I think, at least.

Harada makes a good point and I hope a lot of people take it to heart.

i trully think smash wasnt originally intended for a serious fighting game. although as a kid remebering those awseome commercials. i think it ended up a serious fighter. maybe not in mosts eyes. but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. and the people playing perfesionally. u cant tell them its not. i havent played since smash so i can still say its a party game that got a chance to go pro.

i remember the week before EVO 2012, srkevo1 streamed old EVO DVDs, showing a lot of famous players when they were a bit younger. the hilarious footage contrasted with their seriousness towards a video game made me think that perhaps the Smash community isn't so different, just a bit younger than the FGC.

and wtf is a taunt party? you mean those stupid WiFi battles in Brawl where everyone just taunts? i'm pretty sure those players are to the Smash community as stream monsters are to the FGC (in perspective of the pot monsters :P)

i got lub for smash players/games. it's fun when i've played it and the only fighting games i play are AE and Marvel. if it was played at majors alongside all the other games, what would be the problem/difference? same small pool of top players and bullspittin on both sides IMO.

your butt hole is too tight #9.

harada makes an awesome point btw. all the communes are practically the same. all we wanna see is hype.. smash players tend to try extremely hard to hype their game though. its funny cause smash was not meant to be a pro tourney game. nintendo proved this by throwing out brawl.

Dan Hibiki,King Dedede, and Paul Phoenix.... just Sayin....

People are forgetting that Tekken was also not intended to be a serious fighting game or even a fighting game at all. Smash turned into one when Melee was released. Sakurai said himself that he didn't want Smash to be competitive and he intentionally dumbed down the system when Brawl arrived.

In response to previous posters, it does not take years to master smash bros. It takes only days. Smash is for the masses and wasn't design to be competitive but easy for anyone to pick up and enjoy. It's a fun game with groups of people but not really a game that tournament players will take seriously. Even non-tournament players don't take this game seriously. There's no need to practice setups or match-ups at all. All you have to do is determine which moves you can spam that deals good damage. Opt for grab when they are close. You are now a pro smash player. There's not much to it.

And everyone missing the point of what Harada tried to say, and actually proving it. Congratulations.

@13 Hey you just listed my favorite character from each game! :-)

@15

You've obviously not very well versed on SSB. Melee is well known for being one of the most technical games ever released. Once you reach a high level, very bread and butter type moves require just frames. It's not as much of a joke as people think.

Although ssb(m/b) weren't intended to be serious fighters, and that may be why brawl was dumbed down.

Yet their is INCREDIBLE possibilities with this format, and honestly they should just embrace the community. Just as much the community needs to embrace that their are people out there that enjoy a game that is not their own.

@15
nice.... i've never seen a post so factually stated from someone who has been living under a rock and playing with nobody but his 8-year-old little brother.

"Tekken was also not intended to be a serious fighting game or even a fighting game at all".

That would explain why is the Tekken community so familiar with SSB... hipotetically speaking and according to Harada, to be clear.

I'd take any word about SSB (whether it's competitive or not) with a grain of salt. If someone who plays SF, TK or KOF at a high level is also a regular SSB player, and gives his/her opinion on the subject, that'd be the PoV I'm looking for.

I'm sorry but I will never be able to see why smash can even be considered in the same league as ssf4 execution, spacing, timing.

A series that took the genre in a more marketable and unique direction, the starting points of many notable players' careers, and the game that has truly expanded the audience of the fighting game genre...gets so much heat because it is not a "traditional" fighter despite having a dedicated, competitive, and intense community?! How asinine and narrow-minded. All of this is going to make the EVO Livestream for Melee all that much sweeter. Stay salty friends.

@21 Chris G would like to have a word with you.

Gets pretty boring if the game has to be forced to play "Final destination,no items,x characters" to be considered legit. SSB honestly was not designed to be played like that

agree with #25 specially in brawl with smash ball since you take it out then supers dissapear + pokeballs and trophy assists! that is all

ive only really played 64 and i would consider it a fighting game. there are match ups to learn, footies, and combo executions. there is a definitive separation between high level and casual gaming within the game itself. i sorta feel like its marvel actually. finding a way to open someone up and really exploiting the game mechanics to its fullest makes for well balanced competitive play.

@7 This. So much of this. A game created with the intent of being a party game with so few combos and team battle and the target audience when being made, it just doesn't add up to be a serious fighting game. To me, Smash players will always be the, "hey guise, we're just as legit as you too, c'mon man..." scene.

Person A:
"Smash Can't be a serious fighting game. It was made to appeal to casuals and the masses. It has semi-random, zany matches, very frequent jumping, and an over-the-top style. It's biggest reason for being conceived was to celebrate other franchises' rich legacies by making their fantastical characters duke it out, causing fanboys to go nuts in joy. For these reasons, it is a frantic, non-traditional party game and therefore can ONLY be that, it can NEVER be treated seriously or have any kind of high level skill underneath its blatant fan-service design...because that's just not legit in my book."

Person B:
"Marvel Vs Capcom 2."

@13

Replace D3 with Wario and you just may be on to something :P

It's actually pretty recent that I consider Smash Bros as a real fighting me. The game was created to be a fun game but the community made it like a fighting game, and a good one.
I mean, every other fighting games are nearly like that, you can play it just for fun and the community will create strategy, tech, etc.

smash 64 is a game for fun.

melee is a game for fun on the surface with the ability to be SUPER technical and ridiculous (wavedashing, just frames, chain grabs, etc.) I didn't know it was like that until I played a friend who went to tournaments and saw a level of play that blew my mind.

brawl is a game for fun with the ability to be mildly technical and ridiculous. its basically a combo of 64 and melee--i find it the most fun, albeit VERY broken with a few characters.

here's awesome proof of high execution, the daigo/jwong parry hype equivalent in smash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imY...

I'm glad Harada is doing some actual research on the competitive Smash Bros scene.

Also to all people who don't know about competitive smash (Melee), here's a bunch of videos to give you a little idea.

Guides

-> Advanced how to play SSBM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n4s5y... - the staple 3-part tutorial for advanced SSBM since 2006, similar to Sirlin's ST guides

Tournament matches

-> Revival of Melee 1, M2K vs Shiz LF r4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80M... - old, but one of the greatest classic matches of Melee (daigo vs justin status)
-> Genesis 2, Mango vs Armada GF - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ9c-2... - amazing set between the world's best players
-> The Big House 2, Fly Amanita vs SFAT LSF - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDV7V5... - recent tournament set between two top West Coast players featuring in-depth commentary

Combo videos

--> "The Game Is Not Over" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTnGAD... - a 10-year anniversary video featuring a lot of great moments in competitive Melee
--> "Ariquenuubs" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYgopU... - very flashy compilation by Chilean players
--> "Tipping an illusion" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNwenA... - good Marth combo video featuring Arizona's Tai

There are countless other combo videos to be found for Melee, a lot more than for many other games.

Misc

--> How Fast is Melee? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGB...

Sorry for double post.

My bad I put the wrong link for the 3rd tournament match, there you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QiUhr....

Harada must of been pretty high for saying some garbage like that.

I was better at Melee 12 years ago with than I am at Brawl as a grown man. People say it's dumbed down, but for some reason it feels harder to control for me. Back then I would rarely die with Shiek, and now I strugggle to not kill myself by falling off the stage. I guess shield dash cancels aren't viable anymore? My Smash friends saw me do it and asked "You haven't played since Melee, have you?"

On topic, people need to realize some of the strongest Marvel players come from Smash: Forward, Chris G, Noel Brown, Alukard, etc. And not even just Smash, but people from other less popular gaming communities that trolls like to bash, ie MarlinPie from Guilty Gear and KaneBlueRiver from King of Fighters. You can hate on Smash all you want, but their streaming community, at least, is 100% more mature and accepting than the tools demanding Street Fighter 4 and Marvel all day.

I agree with #6, the FGC as of late has been harsh on so many fighting games in this genre. I, myself, have even had moments where I came down on a game so hard because I didn't too much care for it. I feel as though all fighting games have their own ways of being fun, while trying to be different from the others. Tekken, Smash Bros., Street Fighter, Soul Calibur...so many of these games have at least two types of people; the ones who are fans of that one particular series, and others who play multiple series and choose which ones they like more, but still show respect to other franchises, as well.

Harada has been an icon in the fighting game community to me, as he truly cares for his fans, and even respects other fighting game competitors. We should be more like Harada-sensei, and just appreciate each fighting game for its strengths and weaknesses; because all of them have them in some way, shape, or form. At least, that's how I feel. There will never be a perfect game with NO flaws, that's my opinion on it.

@ 2 - There was no need to be so bloody ignorant.

Wow, look at the utterly long dumb comments trying to prove Hadara wrong about Smash Bros, butthurt much? You do realize that Playstation All Stars is the same crap yet they allow this in Eventhubs and Shoryuken.com.

"OH THIS GAME IS COMPETITIVE JUST CAUSE SETH KILIAN IS THERE, CAUSE HEIHACHI IS THERE, CAUSE IT GOT SUPAZZZ!!!"

Hadara has known and made fighting games for years, seeing you guys acting like children attacking smash bros is just plain stupid. Next are you going to bash the Wii U like every other jealous a hole out there saying "My Console is better than yours!" Grow up, seriously.

@14

The difference being is that Tekken was a fighting game first and foremost from the start. The same cannot be said of Smash Bros. However I wonder how many people actually knew that about Tekken's debut, I know it was certainly my first time hearing/reading about it from Harada himself.

@40

The Wii U is already being **** on for having Bayonetta 2 as a console exclusive by none other that the fine people of SRK. The console bashing may never cease as long as a developer feels that can strike gold where it was previously never thought to exist.

The Wii U was either going to be a kiddie console with whack ass titles or a lot of people were going to buy it for a handful of games that could easily be for multiple systems.

Quite amusing to say the least.

Just looked up taunt parties. That bs is ridiculous. If that happens in a later iteration of SSB, they'll kill off its chances of the game being considered a real fighter.

I agree with #40 completely.
#42: Taunt Parties = casual play NOT tournament level play. Using that as an excuse is ridiculous.

@28 If we're going by those standards, it just begs the question of what exactly qualifies a game as a "serious" fighting game.

So tell us, what are the main things needed for something to be considered a "serious" fighting game?

Intent has nothing to do with it. Combos were discovered in SF2 by accident, Capcom had no intention of putting them in there. Yet we still use them to this day. It doesn't matter how the creator wanted the game to be played, whether it be party or not.

Smash can be played as a serious fighting game. Just because it's not a traditional one doesn't exempt it from being one.

the amount of ignorance in here is ridiculous. "lets fully hate on something we know absolutely nothing about"