Players talk about gameplay changes to Dead or Alive 5, counter system tweaks

One of the main problems was indeed that holds in low-mid level gameplay were abused/mashed out. This game has the potential to feel competive since they are tweaking on the hold damage/recovey now. Those who also played the alpha sneak peak from Ninja Gaiden 3 should know that was just a beta test so Team Ninja can get overall reaction from the game and make tweaks. They already mentioned they are tweaking the Hitomi character model to make her more similar in her previous appearances (like fixing her eyes,hair,and some facial edits i imagine)

Hitomi really does need to be changed (appearance wise), the alpha model just looked.....off. 2 things will help the counter system, 1. tighter counter window, and 2. longer recovery. But contrary to what most people hate, I feel DOA has always had a risk associated with a certain action. Take for example a game of rock paper scissors: no choice is risk free or safe. The level of depth does have an element of luck, but any seasoned fighting game player knows that opponents have a pattern. DOA has always, for me, been about the mind game and tricking the opponent to do something. DOA will NEVER be about footies or pressuring with jab strings. DOA IS about Space control, and messing with your opponents head. Teching a throw in DOA for example is really tough for this reason.

@2

Yeah pretty much what you said is true.

As long as they dont have the countering "just like" the other games then i think it will be alot better.

@4 dont worry .. thats one thing that will stay unique to doa :)

Chin Soon Sun is awesome! I sometimes chat with him, and he's really awesome. Great to see he was there, too!

Also, I'm looking forward to Dead or Alive 5. I've been playing the earlier games as of late, and I can't wait to try out 5! Want to see how my girl Ayane plays this time around. :)

#2 SRK had an article covering a page I submitted as a tip about the list of changes to the hold changes in DoA 5 that will be noticeable compared to the previous incarnations. Holds do in fact have a longer recovery window now to the extent where the player won't be able to get away for free with "just-frames" Stun has been toned down as well that you will be able to slowly escape out of a string that does not involve a mashed hold. It seems they are really trying to make a fighter thats viable for tourney play and not just something fun to look at

DOA should always have the rock/paper/scissors gameplay at it's core. I don't think it's "luck" after a certain level because two good players will always try to out read each other. I wouldn't want any changes made to DOA that brings it down to a 'hit-confirm to dial-a-combo' fest. Keep counters within stuns. Lower damage on counters, I agree.

Just don't make it another one of those fighting games. I'm sick of how many fighting games lost their identity because of a few players who can't imagine playing something different.

@7
actually it came from freestepdodge.com

yeah ive be waiting for this..one im a huge fan...been playing the series since the sega saturn days..yeah im ancient..lol 29 and still gaming. im looking forward to this online its going 2be nice to see veteran players of the game face off against newcomers. i recommend every fight fan to pick this title up...lets keep the fighting genre alive..cause idk bout u all but i cant live in a world where dbz tenkai wtf ever is the only fighting game on shelves next to a tekken every 3 to 4 years apart..man those was dark days...

Damn this game looks sweet!!!!!!!!!!!! The stages and the whole tone of the game is awesome

#9 exactly thats where news of that first appeared then SRK made an article regarding that.

When I look at the Hitomi Model, I am vaguely reminded of a Gelfling from the Dark Crystal movie.

I'm glad that doa5 is coming, i been playing the doa series and started it on the dream cast. but my main game is the Tekken series so, i only got enough for one.. so doa5 have too wait. I'm going to be real with y'all.. I hope Team ninja don't screw with the main core that made DOA fun & competitive, like adding stuff that don't need to be in the game... like Namco did with T6 (bound & rage). that change Tekken style which was all about skills, movements & mind reading.. now its "Get a lucky upper cut" then juggle you across the stage.. oops.. did you drop your combo? don't worry, bound will help you and if he's tough.. then don't worry about it. rage mode will increase your attacks.. so get that lucky upper cut and beat him. all the tekken vet agree that T6 was garbage and T5dr was better. not because it was old school but, it was still kept its gaming core. its like given SF series that bound & rage crap and think Vets going to love it.

@14
That's happening to all fighting games. Rage/bound, Ultra's/Focus attacks, Gems/Pandora, X-Factor, Short Cuts etc... I wouldn't worry about what the Vets think since Vets moan about all changes. If you enjoy Doa you should just get it :D

eg.
3S player hate> AE Players hate> SFxT Players hate>......
Circle of Life basically

Can't wait for this game to come out. Been waiting forever. My girl Hitomi is in too. Can't wait to see how the rest of the cast will turn out.

@15. I know what you're talking about.. but my thing is, focusing on the main core that made the game popular and what make it shines. I know game changes down the line but it kept that main core gameplay... what i'm saying is don't change that style that made the game famous. let's take SF series for instance.. SF always had that shine that everybody love and that was, its a straight head to head fighting game with special ability, but every series it came out with.. it had the same feeling but with new features, while still sticking and keeping its main core that everybody loves about the series. but lets say Capcom wanted to change the main core that everybody loves and know..by adding stuff like a bound feature like tekken, that let you bounce your opponent off the ground (not like umvc3) and let them continue with their combos, more then they should cause this new mechanic capcom had thought that, it might take it to next level.. not knowing that its changing, its main core that everybody knows and enjoy about game. perfect example from changing its core that everybody loves and know... Street fighter EX series. granted Capcom didn't make it but they did, let that other company use their SF licence and characters.. that game didn't sell too well cause the game mechanics and game core change and it wasn't the same that everybody know and love.. ever since then Capcom kept everything the same and kept it 2D.. and made it more SF feel then a different style. i know my wall of text. lol the main thing i'm trying to get tell that.. if team ninja change too much and lose its main core that made and brought people to this game, will back lash at them pretty hard.. look at NG3

i agree with #8. this game's counter system does not need to tweaked. its counter system is wat made doa doa. if u want competitive gameplay, just play tekken or vf5. its loose counter system is wat makes reading your opponent fun.

@17
One wall of text deserves another :)

Changing a game from 2D to 3D(EX series) is more drastic than adding a ground bounce system IMO. I don't feel Tekken has really changed that much compared to other games franchises such as Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Marvel vs Capcom. Movement, Bound and Rage are the are the main things that have changed. Compare that to the changes from MvC2 to UMvC3 where everything from the button layout to Pushblocking had changed. It's practically a completely new game. Soul Calibur 5 plays nothing like Soul Calibur 4. They stripped characters of moves and stances and added a Super Meter with EX move like SF.

SFxT is pretty much Street Fighter with Tekken mechanics(including bound) which people haven't complained about. The main issue with SFxT are the game breaking mechanics of Assist Gems and Jab hit Stun. These two things break the game and make it unplayable on a casual and competitive level. As BAD as SFxT is, the core gameplay Street Fighter's footsies, spacing, and fireball zoning is still there and I feel that's the same with Tekken, AE, SC5 and the rest.

I feel as long as Team Ninja do not add a game breaking mechanic into the game like Capcom's Assist Gems, Doa5 will still be played both casually and competitively. I hate Rage in Tekken but I'm still buying TTT2. If they add Super meters, flight modes, Gems, or remove the juggle system from Tekken, then that would be the day Tekken looks unrecognizable to me.

@19 Super_Shoto_Fighter_4

"Changing a game from 2D to 3D(EX series) is more drastic than adding a ground bounce system IMO."

The EX series as in SFEX? Thats 2D fighting, just like SF4. It was considered a 3D fighter when released because it used 3D models, just like how Tekken was originally 2D with 3D models, but Tekken became 3D and SF stayed 3D. No SFEX title has 3D movement in any form.

"I don't feel Tekken has really changed that much compared to other games franchises such as Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Marvel vs Capcom."

Tekken changed a lot from Tekken 1 to now. A lot.

dont worry guys ...
the core elements of the game are all intact ... they certainly havent taken away anything that makes the game fun .. nor have they dumbed it down like other games ... if you check my tutorial you will realize that ...

the tweaks done to the system dont take away any of the fun of the game ... but it certainly makes it more viable as a fighter on so many levels ...

- decreased hold damage overall and more decrease when in stun
- increased recovery on holds (making a wrong guess far more risky and far easier to punish)
- decreased active frames of holds meaning you need to get your timing just right.. its not as forgiving as 5 .. the active frames become even less during stun ...
- the hold system as of yesterday is back to 4 point .. (high, mid punch , mid kick , low) .. making it much harder to sumply just throw out a hold for a lucky guess

there are other major changes to the core gameplay ...
please refer to my tutorial for more details:
http://youtu.be/5AF0pxoR-pg

I'm all for the decreased hold damage, the increased recovery on holds, and the decreased active frames of holds. But the 4pt Holds? not quite.

Sure, the mathematical odds of inflicting damage (not only "finishing combos") obviously increase with the 4pt Hold System, and odds of successful Mid-Hold Spamming decrease.

However, I was actually satisfied with odds of the 3pt Hold system and still don't feel the need for Team Ninja to mess around with them.In my opinion, expert players can easily deal with the odds of the 3pt Hold system, especially if team Ninja were to add extra move and combo variations (odds may not increase as much as with the 4pt Hold system, but they do increase).

Moreover, making defense harder to change the odds (and help attackers) doesn't seem right to me. I always found it fair that defending yourself from an assailant should be naturally simpler and more accessible, and that it is up to attackers to dig more into strategy and options to outdo a shielding defender.

Also, I think that making defense harder doesn't necessarily improve the appeal of the game. I'm thinking of the other players I always try to reel in to the DOA world. Some of them already have a hard time guessing high-mid-low Holds, so if you add in another point, you add in another barrier.

Ultimately, I believe that by switching to a 4pt system, we are actually favoring expert players to the detriment of less experienced players.

I would have been perfectly cool if Team Ninja had kept that Hybrid 3pt-4pt Hold system in the DOA5 Demo: 3pt for basic Holds, 4pt for Expert Holds.

@23 .. I feel where you're coming from .. and I've stated before that the tweaks done already reduce the hold to a more reasonable mechanic ... and not as broken as before ..

but you need to bare in mind something ...
alot of the characters in DOA have their best pokes on mid ...

personally i liked the 3 point + advanced ... 3 point worked out fine in doa3 .. but so did 4 point in doa2 and 4 ...
i dont think 4 point harms the system ... if anything it will give more offensive potential for players and add an extra layer to mixing an opponent up ...
at the end of the day, as a defender you ARE at a disadvantage ...

and when a good player sees a mid hold .. it is very unlikely that they will go for a 50/50 risk ..the normal reaction would be to go for a high or a low (or a throw) .. especially considering the length of recovery a hold has now .. and how very clear the animations of "high/mid / low" holds are now ...

in anycase nothing is final .. and i welcome both systems ..

3 might be easier to grasp for new comers .. i agree ... but honestly after a few games .. 4 isnt that hard either ... if scrubs can do shoryuken xx FADC XX ultra in sf4... they can sure as hell press >+H .. lol

@24 : That's exactly how I feel, so obviously you've been there too! But since the key to survival is adaptability, if it eventually becomes 4pt: so be it... However, promoting lengthy combos by unnecessarily and illogically complexifying defense will never get my vote.