GameSpot wrote up a new piece calling out training modes in fighting games, stating that they don't do enough for the average gamer to properly teach them the ins and outs of playing the game.Online play offers one of the best ways to get better at fighting games. As the old saying goes, you're only as good as your competition, and this is no exception. It's also a battleground teeming with veterans ready to rub your face in their victory. Preparation is needed, which means visiting the training mode. However, for players new to fighting games, the available tools are entirely insufficient for the task. They only offer basic explanations without guidance or context. Knowing how to perform an attack isn't enough, which can be a disillusioning realization for first-time online players.
Let's examine Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition, which is arguably the current flagship game for the genre. Most characters have a series of trials that display how to perform some of their special moves, as well as basic to advanced combos. This is a good place to learn the basics of a new character, but the difficulty spikes once you hit the early combos. It all boils down to the timing. The simple act of correctly linking two crouching light punches can be tricky if you don't understand that this game demands precise execution. It assumes you do, and this is a poor assumption to make; one that can quickly lead to unnecessary confusion and frustration.
Do you agree with GameSpot's assessment? Leave a comment below with your thoughts, along with any solutions you think fighting game makers should try to add in to make training mode a better experience for newer players.
Via iPlayWinner.
Fighting game training modes are good if you already know what you're doing. They need a good TUTORIAL on how to teach people what these games are about - spacing, timing, execution and so on. Fighters sell a bunch but still don't appeal to the casual crowd enough, instead of doing easy inputs Capcom and others need to focus on offering a tutorial that's worth a sh!t.
I think the training modes are fine. It's not their job to spoon feed everything. Everyone starts out as a scrub, but it's the individuals job to put the time and effort in getting better if they want to improve, not a training mode. Everyone wants everything on a platter now because they're too lazy to put in the work. I mean we have the internet now and information is so easy to get, why not utilize it.
HA i have always said this. I mean anytime i play a fighter with a friend that doesnt play them or that specific one i gotta teach them how. I mean basic stuff and the advanced things to look out for. AND hopefully i know what to say about how to use their character's strenghts and weaknesses.
That's why i was so happy when SKULLGIRLS was puting in such a tutorial. Oh and lets not forget blazblue. I think the first fighting game to go over its systems and then you could go in a basic depth of your character with anti-airs, mixups, and i think 1 combo and overall playstyle. Oh,and they show you how to do the combos in the trial mode not just expect you to figure it out.
Man i really wish more people played blazblue and hopefully skullgirls doesnt die out.
There is a mission mode that helps beginners and advanced players learn basic combos. This guy forgot about that. However, I think that training mode is fine. I think that fighting games need modes where they explain different things in the game because fighting games have words that people may not know what it means. Like Plinking, juggle, reversals, stuff like that which you may not see in a manual. The word terminologies should be put into future fighting games so that players can know what it is and how it affects the gameplay when you play the game. What do you guys think?
I agree with #3. Casuals shouldn't be catered to. Besides, it's not like any sort of tutorial like that is going to make casuals suddenly jump up to pro status, so they're still going to be getting bodied online constantly anyways. People who know what they're doing in fighting games get constantly bodied online and offline all the time, that's no reason to fault the game as if it didn't help you out enough. If people aren't wlling to put the time in to get better, no in game tutorial's gonna change that and it'll just take up space on the disk.
I agree that training mode is good for pros, but you have to UNDERSTAND just what training mode is.
It's a place for testing stuff and learning the game engine. When you go into a match and get you $$$ beat, go to the lab and find out how to stop it by using the record and play function. You have to study match-ups and practice your core combos. The more you use it, the better you get at it (just as you would using a calculator, hammer, or any other tool).
That's how you get knowledge of what beats what. It takes a lot of time and it's not easy, fighters will always be more challenging due to this aspect. Trials are just good for execution, which is a big aspect of fighting games. But it's the knowledge that matters AND being able to analyze, predict, and react to your opponent. Without knowledge, nothing after is relevant because you'll be shooting in the dark.
I think we don't need a tutorial on everything. But a good tutorial on one character and all of his/her match-ups (that would show you step by step how to deal with a character in a match-up) would be a great thing. Remember the Air tutorial Gootecks did a while back? Something similar would be nice, but, just have it be like an in-game tutorial.
..... I just wanna get the quarter-circle and z motions right... -_-;
@ #5 did you read the second paragraph.....He's definitely referring to the trials aka same as missions.
In this day in age, people want their hands held. What ever happened to the days people had to actually learn a game on their own without the help of guides or hand holding?
The way I see it, it's more about a lack of a strong tutorial than a lackluster training mode because some games have a solid training mode. A training mode is more like a dojo. It's spacious, there is nothing in your way and your free to practice whatever you need. But what you really need is a teacher in that dojo and this is where the contrast ends.
If you look at games like KOF XIII or Blazblue, they actually teach you how to play the game at it's most basic form. Capcom games don't do that because Capcom relies on social media to do the job. Seth and Ono has mentioned this a number of times.
Capcom is wasting their time with easy to use mechanics that is suppose to be designed to help new players but all they do is just simplify it, but when your ready to take the training wheels off, who is gonna teach you? Not every new player knows where to look for tips and tricks and even still they need help with all the lingo and verbage that defines how to tech a throw or plink a button.
If Capcom wants casual players to get better they need a vessel that brings experience players and beginners togeather. I think SFxT is on the right track with online training mode, it's something we've always wanted and now it's here. If Capcom is really smart, they should offer rewards for training new players online.....like Gems. Jk. But you get what I mean.
This is where I think Tekken’s training mode shines aswell. In Tekken (well the recent ones from what I remember) when you went to learn a combo, you could press the select button and it would demonstrate the combo being performed, and the buttons would highlight + sound effects, indicating at what point they should be pressed within said combo.
As for tutorials, I think they should be added. I do agree in this day and age people are lazier, but when learning a fighter most people are playing casually nowadays and not competitively. Nowadays people pick a game to play for a few months until the next best game or their favourite game sequel comes out. I doubt anyone will know what PLinking/pianoing/fuzzy guards/hitboxes/hurtboxes/frame data etc etc is and doubt people will want to go looking for it UNLESS they have dedication OR it is already on the disc and can be viewed whilst in training/trial/mission mode.
In this respect I really hold VesperArcade & Cross Counter up high for the tutorials they released for SSFIV, and the amount of time and dedication they put into it (I even bought the full DVD collection just to support them.) I think if their tutorials were put on the disc, a lot of new comers could watch and learn and be like “oh so that’s what the game wants me to do for this trial” rather then what I hear from most people I know which is “f*** learning this I CBA to put in the time to figure all this out, I’ll just button mash to beat you/I’ll just go back to COD” etc. (Sorry about wall of text people.)
#3 is right. You have to put in the time and the work if you want to be good. Why would you need a tutorial? What's next, you need Capcom to whipe your ass when you go to the toilet too? What you think you gonna be the next Daigo with a tutorial? Stupid noobs want everything easy these days.
Things I'd like to see in a tutorial:
The various forms of punishing (hit confirms, whiffs, etc).
Defense (Overheads, low attacks, throws, etc).
Offense (Normals, trading, counter-hits, frame traps, etc).
Character specific stuff (Normals, specials, good ways to open up or shut down your opponent, etc).
Mechanics (Whatever the mechanics are in the game).
All of that and more.
@11 The way things are set up now means we see higher quality players develop at a faster pace. Games are much more competitive now partly because of how much access there is to information.
Not everybody wants to spend months to learn a game.
Of course those who spend more time will learn more, and should be rewarded for that, but the games should (and I think they are heading towards this) open their doors to the casual crowd. Things like "chained lights don't let specials to come out" is just stupid. Also, why make 1 frame link combos? Yes, there may be one or another, but then it will be because of players that want to push it to the next level, but but some bnb require 1 frame links is also retarded. Even things like link 2 cr.mp took me months to learn, but links is something that should be more user friendly. What if it was easier? The game wouldn't be lame. We would have to focus more on tactics than on execution. Same thing for FADC. You don't see any rookie trying it because it doesn't take just 2 weeks to learn. Why not simplify it by just pressing focus during a DP you automatically cancel and dash? The overlaping of inputs just makes it tighter. Simplifying this won't level the competition from the bottom. Better players will still win. But it won't neglect the newer players some techniques. This kind of thing just stimulates mashing and things like that.
The way to compensate that could be that harder and longer combos would make more damage. Think of that for a second. A jump in with a shoryuken from Sakura does more damage than a 1 frame link loop from Ibuki. And the link could be easily dropped and punished (mainly online).
So, tutorials would be good, but more than that, the game should think of newcomers too, and reward the more avid players with a scale system.
I think fighting games should at least to attempt a standard of decent training modes. Sure, it's always much more respectable to learn the game on your own, through trial and error, I agree with that.
At the same time though, there are people out there who like fighting games enough to want to develop skill in them but can't devote the hours necessary to do so, so I feel like these types of training modes are more for people like that.
To make the game more accessible I agree that training modes need to teach more information. Shooting games are accessible beacuse everyone knows point and shoot on a basic level, but fighting games isn't just press buttons and win. My argument against this is that Capcom doesn't develop the flow of the fighting game, players do. How are they to know what information is critical and what is not? It would be a tough task for Capcom to do something as such.
I absolutely agree that a better training/tutorial mode would be tremendously helpful. Most players are just going to maybe play through arcade mode on easy by abusing certain things, go online and get destroyed, then quit the game.
You can say proper matchmaking can prevent them from getting destroyed but it's really not a permanent solution.
If players want to get better, there should be means to help them do so outside of just slamming their face into a wall over and over until cracks start showing up.
I agree with them. There are way too many hidden mechanics in fighters that you have to know about in order to be able to play the game effectively.
One big thing that I think a lot of people completely miss the boat on is the difference between linking and cancelling. I mean yeah there are hundreds of online tutorials that explain it, but the average person isn't going to go look that up, and they shouldn't have to. It's a basic mechanic that needs to be understood in order to play the game effectively. Anything like that needs to be explained in the game somehow.
This guy isn't complaining about training mode. Whether he knows it or not, he's complaining about SF4's overly convoluted combo system and the complete lack of explanation as to how it works. The difference between links, chains and cancels should be clearly explained in the instruction manual. Better yet, get rid of links and make everything a chain. Links are stupid.
One of the things I would've love to seen personally is a timer designed to help players learn those tricky one frame combos, as well as a hit detection box display. I know in Street Fighter IV they do have something like that as a display on the characters health bar, but I would personally like to see a an actual clock timer that shows the frames per second a player has in order to chain a combo.
if Gamestop's reviewers/players have trouble doing links in SF4 they should stop hiring quadriplegics.
Just saying.
I agree... TO AN EXTENT... but training modes aren't supposed to hold one's hand through every little thing. in fact, that seems counter intuitive to a FIGHTING game. sure, it'd be nice to have a lil more direction at times, but I think there's a WEALTH of free information out there... like say, the internet - which often provides any necessary information and assistance for accomplishing things in a video game.
the snip seems to suggest that it's not kind enough to casual gamers... which is fine, because... does a casual game care that much?
do newcomers care that much? IF they do, they'll work through or around these issues, and polish their abilities... this is my thinking anyway, and it probably mirrors the developers. more advance gamers will figure these things out in little, non serious gamers won't... and they don't need to anyway because they're not taking seriously to begin with.
in short, it's not that big of a deal, and people need to stop complaining SO much. like seriously, back in the day, there was no training modes. I'm just happy they have them, and give you the ability to:
A) fight the computer non-stop
b) fight a person non-stop
c) set up game situations
d) record inputs and such
and much much more. IMO, there is little more one could ask of most training modes today.
i agree with this guy
tachsniper
I agree with this article, if you haven't been playing Fighting games since good ol Street Fighter II, you will get stomped online and stomped hard. The single player needs a bit of a revamp to help prepare for online matches.
@ cris25
sorry that would turn off the veterans. there is still an art to fighting games that needs dedication to achieve. u remove that then the substance, challenge and art is gone. player uniqueness also disapears. our years of training will mean nothing.
@ 5
i agree. i remember when i was new reading frame data on hhere. i had no idea what pursuit properties meant. i never asked but ive finally put 2 and 2 together
All fighting games should have VF4:Evolution's training mode. And these days, should include a section on how to deal with online tactics.
I believe that the review was accurate. I mean how do you expect a community to grow if nobody is there to teach them. Not everybody is tough skinned at everything which is why games like COD get so hyped up because all you do is point and shoot. You could spray your way to victory but you can't do that in a fighter or you'll get totaled very fast.
I see people commenting like people need to go out and figure stuff out we have the internet and blah blah, but some games should still give better explanation. No training or trial mode really tells you what a link is or how to time it, thus large %s of the players don't know how to do stuff in the game. This needs to be added like how Tekken has the move previews for every character that shows proper timing and how the player should move to pull of said move. It's out there, just not in Capcom games more or less.
Man, I played hours in training mode just to perfect the timing of certain characters in ssf4. You do get better while playing online and against the computer A.I. which helps to better instincts and understand character match-ups. The training mode is bonus only for timing, combo approaches, and its replay value but in all honesty it does not help the casual player. I consider myself a casual only playing 8-12 hours a week, sometimes more when off work. The game it self is quite technical with the plinking, crouch tecs, and pianoing actions. I had learn all these tactics for characters just so my playing would be up to par. Moreover, I have no complaints with the training mode but it can use some improvements for the novice player.
People really seem to be missing the point. Sure, you have a trial mode, but all that tells you is "If you're at point blank range, you can do this combo or if you jump in, you can do this combo."
What the article says, is that what most games don't tell you is how to use the training mode. (Record,playback) They also don't tell you why an attack hit you while you were blocking (cross-ups).
Trials don't teach you anything, other than execution and even that part is obscure... For example, I was doing the Dhalsim missions a couple days ago, after putting them off for a couple months. I think one of the missions was LP into MP or something like that, which if you leave the stick neutral, uses the extended limbs and it's impossible to combo off of. Why can't they tell you to press "back+LP into back+LP". I just happened to learn those by accident because I was messing around with his trials and pressed back+MP to get a different attack. (I don't play Dhalsim, I just enjoy doing trials)
Then you have cancels. You can't cancel off of every attacks. Some attacks can be can't be cancelled if they're chained. Try to figure this out when you're doing trials that tell you to 2 do chained attacks into a fireball that only links if cancelled. But how is the average person that hasn't done any research on the engine supposed to know that he's got to link an ability instead of chaining it? Either pure luck or he's really observant and managed to notice that "if I don't want until the recovery frames are done before I hit that button again, the fireball won't come out". The engine shouldn't be this obscure, even if all this information is easy to find online.
I've spent a lot of time getting crushed by better players, and spent a ton of time in training mode and mission mode in (U.)MvC3 and it's paid off. And I wouldn't even say I'm an intermediate player, but I understand a lot about the game I never did when I started. Now I can actually perform more of the missions.
DEFINITELY.
I'm not new to fighting games but I only started properly playing them recently (learned what DHC was, how link, plink, piano, etc). I had to do all external research on this. That's pretty unacceptable because the game company should be providing the majority of the material to learn. I know some stuff you have to come up with yourself (for instance, picking a team in UMVC3).
Tekken absolutely, hand down, has the best system. They SHOW you how the combo works, how to press it, etc. Incredible. People could learn from Namco.
I'd think, IMHO, that character specific tutorials would help a great deal & some type of media (video, outline, etc) on how to get the best out of training mode.
Having the information available is good and all, but ppl have to get out of their homes and attend the local casuals.
Not to be aa drag, but, training mode could also offer us combovideo makers some more features, like a linger recording time, recording settings, like setting the opponent to crouch when recording, or hitbox data, or even frame data for deep dissections.
I agree with those who talk about improved tutorials than improved training modes. The tutorial is what should teach people how to "understand" the game (in a sense). The training mode is simply there for practice and to figure out things after you understand general stuff.
I also 100% disagree with the notion that something like this simply "spoon feeds" casual players who "shouldn't be catered too." I'm sorry, but that's completely asinine and is not going to help the fighting game genre.
That's like a calculus teacher who tells you to just figure out everything for yourselves like the original mathematicians did. Systems to help people understand and teach people ideas and concepts about fighting games that others have already discovered/figured out is something that should be encouraged, not discouraged.
Which is why I'm really glad that Skullgirls is going to have a strong tutorial, and I really hope other devs look at it.
Training mode is not tutorial mode; it's a tool. So add a tutorial mode. Training mode isn't lackluster, it's more of what the game itself is lacking, really.
They should have one tip in that tutorial mode for good closure: "Ask others for advice!"
Let me put it in terms that is easy to summarize:
L2P
That's basically my opinion, that's why games are so easy and lackluster lately. Everything is spoon fed to you, games like Dark Souls are a godsend due to the fact if you F up, YOU F up, not the game. In the case of SF, MvC, so on, it's fine to have a slight tutorial for your character thrown in to see if you can like them. But for god's sake put some work in and learn it. I didn't learn Cody over night in SSF4 when it came out, took me a good while and I'm still learning him. Same for other characters and fighters.
I think fighting games do need better training modes...maybe add a tutorial mode where someone like Dan teaches you how to do stuff ranging from special moves to advanced combos. Just to give new players an idea of what you need to learn to be a better player.
Fuudo didn't need a tutorial to win Evo, neither did Daigo. Why do you guys need one? Put the time and the work in it and you will get better at the game. If you don't want to do that, go play a kids game like SFxT and leave Street Fighter to the real men.
Just because people don't "need" them doesn't mean they "shouldn't" exist. It's called passing on knowledge to the next generation. That's how you get a genre to grow. You can decrease the amount of barriers to entry without sacrificing the overall skill of the players, as some of you seem to believe.
Teaching someone about general concepts and tools helps a person break into the genre more easily. That's all. They still have to put in effort to get really good. It's not some magical feature that turns people into the next Daigo. However, it does help them improve faster. I would think that helping people improve at a faster rate is something that most competitive gamers would approve of :/
Every fighting game has a different engine of some sort (ex SF is much different than KOF). Some general fighting game tactics won't apply to certain games, so I think there should be some kind of mode that teaches the game engine itself if that makes any sense. I think everything else will fall into place after that. A training mode like BlazBlue CC or VF4 Evolution should be included in EVERY fighting game in my opinion
I agree. I bought my nephew ssf4 and he couldn't figure out the squiggly lines in the move list for a hadouken or a shoryuken. I had to show him the moves. He wants to play online more than using training mode. Street Fighter requires skill to play it at a decent level. There is no way around it. It isn't about button mashing.
I think one thing people get wrong about Trials/Mission Modes is it's supposed to give you combos you can use on others.
The way I see it, it teaches you the limits of what a character/game system is allowed to do.
An perfect example of what I mean is Hakan, where you can focus attack into Ultra 2. It's not really viable now, but it did tell you that your opponent is considered 'in the air' during that crumple state.
They ought to just use SSF4 as the model for every fighting game.
Proper balance means great diversity of characters and that nearly any character can be viable high-level.
Good netcode....and finally the practice mode is alot better than MVC3 and it's really not even funny.
But yea,abit more effort put into training modes would be good, but nowadays anyone who REALLY wants to know will look it up anyways. And there's always that breed of players that just doesn't have the fortitude or intelligence or work-ethic or strategy that just wants to make up excuses and wants a formula for an easy win, anything in the way needs to be removed.
Yep, they're right. The fact SF doesn't even have an example play of the combos is a joke. Having something with some basic training how to play the game would be even better. Anyone arguing otherwise needs to shut up. There's nothing bad about teaching people that don't understand the genre how to play.
But as usual people, like insularity and trying to say if you don't have the fortitude to figure things out and look it all up on your own, feck off. Good job guys, that's helping things a ton.
The author should re-write his article after he plays skullgirls.
More Training Mode is for getting your execution on and advancing it. But what lacks is the AI on Versus mode. Even the "hardest" difficulty is not a challange. You have to be able to put what you learned in Training into practice without going online. But Versus mode doesn't serve right. They don't even block random ultras.
My God some of the ppl commenting on here are fuking retarded. Am I the only one that realizes that the 90's are over and have moved on? Its called evolution for a reason.from the 90s til now fgs have gotten training mode,trials,online play...yet a lot of ppl are still spitting that "well back in my day..." nonsense.I remember what learning fighters was like back before training mode.a lot of trial & error and most of all...monotonus repetition.something not all ppl have the patience for,especially if they're not learning anything.
I do agree that GS is barking up the wrong tree tho.training mode teaches players matchups,strats,etc. Its always been tutorial mode that teaches players how to play the game.as a developer it is their job to make sure they properly explain and demonstrate everything a new player needs to know to be able to properly play the game as well as be able to learn thru continuous play.its not the internets job to teach basic fundamentals of any game, that responsibility falls upon the devs.our genre is the worst in this area.this is probably y fighters aren't up there with call of doodoo. capcom seriously needs to take a few pages out of namcos book with regards to teaching newbies.especially with their recent collabo.combo demos,timing explanations for trials.hitbox display for training mode and footsies,zoning etc for tutorial mode.
I feel like every fighter should have a basics/strategies kind of explanation for each character, the way BlazBlue does. For those who haven't played, BlazBlue actually has a tutorial section in the game that details the character, their play style, some of their key normals, what to apply when using them, and it just seems to be a smarter approach. I also notice that the majority of people online in BlazBlue have basic knowledge of what they are doing and it isn't as derpy or random as the other fighters as a result. I think it makes the player feel like doing well in the game is actually possible. A Capcom fighter will kind of throw you to the wolves, give you these trials and missions, many of which are impractical, and then you go online and someone will tear you apart in a matter of seconds and the player who lost doesn't even compute what just happened.
I think they should at least explain how to do each trial because when I just started playing so much of the trial seemed impossible and just seeing someone do it does not help I had to go to vesper arcade's youtube channel to figure out how thing worked
Other than that traing mode is great I like UMVC with having record and play back able to be assigned to button instead of going to the start screen but that is just me being nit picky.
@30 Your comment makes no sense. You're not fighting the computer online, you're fighting real people. Playing the computer on the hardest level doesn't teach you anything, since the computer will not fall for mixups and will simply block it or punish it every time. The CPU sees what move you are doing, and picks the best option to deal with it instinctively. o prediction or lucky guesses, it just reacts. You won't learn anything that way if the computer isn't falling for your tricks. Human players are not computers, and will fall for many things if they don't predict it beforehand. Another thing is the computer doesn't make stupid mistakes like mashing DP or doing an unsafe move unless in a combo, so you're not learning how to punish anything. Fighting the CPU doesn't mean Jack Sh*t when playing real people, since the CPU reacts on instinct rather analyzing and reading the opponent, and because of that, you'll sometimes find the CPU to be stupid at times (even on the highest difficulty, UMvC3 CPU NEVER uses Advancing Guard to avoid chip, something a human would do.
Umvc3 has the best training mode out of any fighter,now I think the mission mode should be more detailed to give you a better understanding and once you understand you should hit the training room and try stuff,people nowadays are so damn lazy they just want to jump in and beat people this isnt a shooting game and will never be that simple umvc3 is already simple enough to jump in and start doing cool things but without training you shouldnt or wont beat anyone who know what to do now if they put a good way to explain how somethings work then yes but everything shouldnt be spoon feed to them if they wanna learn the game they gotta take the time to learn you dont have to be a high level player or anything just to understand the game
The sense of elitism here should be shocking, but it isn't. I started playing SF2 in 1991. The game has come a long way since then. There wasn't even a training mode on home consoles until Killer Instinct. Your old version of training mode was plugging in a second controller and beating your imaginary friend to a pulp. I guess if you want to keep your secret knowledge safe, training modes should be erased entirely and you should have to discover all your combo timing in battle with the pressure on. But that's an egotistical and selfish approach. The newer generations of players have a lot more to learn.
I'm all for a more generous training mode. Easier inputs drag the game down for everyone. What's wrong with helping people to play the game better? Do we not share combos via videos? Do we not write tutorials? Why then should people not be taught how to play better via the game? Ultimately, a more thorough training mode would make a better player, give rise to more competition and a better match on average. Players still have to learn and execute the combos, so it's not like people without skill will auto-win matches. For the sake of the future of the community, this would be a damn fine idea.
Thanks god nowadays we have GEMS to solve our problems, we don't need to stop at training mode to learn how to block, tech-throws or do a simple dp motion anymore!
Training mode any easier? Why are we babying casual players that obviously are only going to play for a few weeks and then not play anymore? I started playing fighting games at Street Fighter II SNES. NO TRAINING MODE. And now here I am trying learn hard ass combos on Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 and learning the feel of King of Fighters XIII. Let's face it, I get it companies want to sell MORE games out there and not just to the fighting game fans, but whose more of a guaranteed purchase? Fighting game fans! Casual players are casual. They will play for a day or week. BLargh! Too difficult and lazy to learn the game Waahhh! It's called practice for a reason they do it in sports. Do it in the game.
Training mode and trials are are good for practicing combos and all that but it can't really helpful for improving all around gameplay. Trying to figure out good mix-ups and cross up attacks don't really work against the CPU because it's reading your inputs so it will either just block or let you land the hit. No doubt it helps you with learning combo timing and all that but in general that's all its good for. However that's no reason to get rid of it and I think every fighting game needs a training mode.
So if they are looking for a comprehensive training mode I have a few ideas, most of which would require a more reactive and advanced AI:
1. The lag alteration in MVC3 is a good idea but take it a bit farther, have AI alteration meters that for example scale from 1 to 10 that effect things such as high low mix up use, how often poke based moves are used, how often the AI jumps, how often the AI throws etc. so that players can work on situations they have issues in
2. Have a mode where the alteration switches I mentioned in idea #1 can be applied to arcade modes AI.
3. While playing any mode thats VS. cpu or online have the system pick up stats such as percentage of opponents attacks blocked and percentage of attacks blocked my opponents, number of throws teched, what type of moves you were most hit by (high, low, overhead, throws) and which type you landed most etc. and if possible offer to set training mode alteration settings mentioned in idea #1 to settings that may help you in areas you are struggling in.
4. For very new players offer a true tutorial mode that explains all the core basics such as jumping attacks hit overhead which means it hits crouching opponents even if they are blocking and low hits hit standing opponents, throws break through guard, the differences between hard knockdowns, techable knockdowns and resets why each one matters and what their advantages and disadvantages are, and simple strategy tutorials showing things such as when it is a good idea to jump, possibly a tutorial that mimicks a certain strategy such as fireball zoning and has you execute different options that it randomly selects that can be used for closing the distance and negating zoning.
5. Last but not least a online training mode lobby that can either be open or private.
I understand that all of these options seem difficult to accomplish but look at it this way... Rocksmith has done everything I mentioned above for guitar which is a very very complicated thing to learn. It detects what kind of techniques you are struggling in such as exact chords, sliding to new notes etc and recommends a tutorial to help you get better in that area. If Rocksmith can do this first time around with the help of musicians im sure fighting games could handle it with the help of professional players who would over look the tutorials and judge their usefulness and critique it.
P.S. If you feel these ideas are as possibly revolutionary to not only fighting games training mode but overall accessibility and ability to further the players and keep them interested as I feel these ideas are please post this post as-is on any thread you feel it is appropriate for.
Sorry for the double post but I feel it should be standard to list every move in the move list including all normals and what their properties are such as whether the move hits high, overhead, crouching, if it is a throw, knocks down, launches, resets airborne opponents, has armor breaking, has a crumple effect, start up invincible, projectile etc.
i think it will take the life out of the game if everything was thoroughly explained ...its more interesting to discover practice research and execute ....it feels like a journey especially if you only play one character
I have vpbeen saying that for years. Blazblue does it well, and SFIV Volt (iOS mobile) is a step in the right direction. Nonlinear training mode is totally necessary. Andialso think that they should teach input techniques. How to hold the joystick/d-pad, and suggest reasoning behind certain( configurations. For instance, why it's important to have the Mk & Mp buttons close together, same as for Lp & Lk in SF.
THE MOST IMPORATANT THING THAT THEY SHOULD TEACH IS EXEXCUTION. THE TRAINIJG MODE SHOULD HAVE AN OPTION THAT PLAYS LIKE RHYTHM GAMES. THE INPUTS SCROLL DOWN IN A TIMELY MANNER AND THE BUTTINS THAT ALLOW FOR A COMBINATION/COMBO ARE DISPLAYED ACCORDINGLY. IT'S UP TO THE PLAYER TO PRESS THE EASY LINKS WITH WIDER WINDOW FRAMES OR THE MORE CHALLENGING ONES THAT STRICTER TIMING.
THEY WOULD BE DISPLAYED IN GRID, AND BUTTONS WOULD IN THE "GOOD TIMING ZONE" FOR AS LONG AS IT IS POSSIBLE.
@ 49
Go cry little crybaby, what you want? You want a 1 button ultra's? You want Justin Wong to come over to your place to teach you how to play or what?
Just learn the game like we all did. Put the time and the work in it and learn from your mistakes, or get the F**k out and leave the game for the people who actually want to learn it you scrub.
Some of the people here are crazy. Comments like #18 make me mad. simplify FADC it by just pressing focus during a DP you automatically cancel and dash?? Are you serious???
SF4 already is very noob friendly with the shortcuts, what more do you want?
All I want to say is that you will get good at the game if you put the time and the work in it. All the best players in the world did it that way.
Why would any noob put hours of time in a tutorial when they aren't willing to put that time in the actual game? Most new players just want to play the game, they don't want to spend countless hours in tutorials and training modes.
I think that Gamespot's arguments miss the point.
The problem isn't the way you understand how to chain or link the combos, that's the number 1 mistake every new players make - they want to jump into the most flashiest moves of the game instead of understanding the system.
The real problem is that the game doesn't teach you the global techniques (of EACH character), like: Anti Air, Overhead, Crossup etc.
I mean, for example - not only telling you "do F+MP with Akuma", but also explaining the properties of this move and how it serves you.
The first things that players who're new to fighting games need to know are the tactical options, not the technical combos.
If you're not willing to take the time to learn these basic mechanics yourself, you're not going to have any drive to learn the more advanced ones.
People seem to be neglecting the fact that the task of making this mode would fall under the job of the game developers. This would cost the company money, time and effort with very little reward to themselves. Most gamers picking up fighting games want to play and enjoy them with friends occasionally, not play them competitively and join the tournament scene. Why would a company spend a large sum of money on a mode for a miniscule fraction of the people buying their game? In the long run, they're a business, which means they want profit.
Well I think that tutorials should at least put more focus of the properties of specials and some normals. It would come in handy if you learned that EX neckbreaker for instance is fireball invinvible and that the tutorial would let you try to use it on reaction to Ryu's Hadoken.
Would speed up the process a little bit for both casuals and advanced players since the properties are immediatley known after completing the tutorials instead of having to test numerous possibilities.
Using frame data would be a little too complicated for most casual players, but it would nice to see them use moves the way they are intended to.
I like Tekken's training mode. you can click on any of the 200+ combos character's have and view a video that demonstrates not only the combo being done, but shows the timing you need to press the button as well, with each button lighting up and a distinct sound playing for each hit. it also has a feature where the characters will turn blue if they are in hit or block stun, but go back to normal when they are at a neutral state. a simple yet extremely effective way to teach whether moves are safe or not.
I also agree that there should be a tutorial on move properties, so that players can learn what their own moves are capable of, and what their opponents moves can do as well.
I know it's a lot for Capcom to implement, but I feel like a major reason why people don't play fighting games is because if it's learning curve. if Capcom could help ease it with some features being suggested here, it'd make things easier for everyone.
well, i didn't read any posts from above but, meeh whatever... i just wanna say that, this is true (for the most part). Capcom offers a nice challenge mode that let you know the capabilities of every character but there will be some situations where, a Ryu challenge for example, will ask you to link a crouching L punch into a crouching H punch. I'm an experienced player, so i know that that is a link and most be comboed in a somewhat specific way but, newbies sure have a hard time trying to get that link, because they don't even know about links and stuff like that. A tutorial mode that could explain how the game works would be extremely helpful for newcomers. Also, like blazblue's challenges, it would be helpful if there was an option in challenge mode to see how a combo looks before doing it.
Sorry but training mode aint lack luster. I may not be a pro but i definitly am not a scrub! Training mode actually helped me out so so much! It is true you should kinda have an idea what training mode is for and how to use it but how the heck are you gonna ever learn if you dont try figuring at least training mode out?! Its not rocket science just go in and play with the settings! It even allows for a second player to play against you IN TRAINING MODE! Gamespot must be pretty free staff wise playing that game because i truly dont understand whats so hard to understand about "training mode". With a few exceptions, training mode in street fighter is very similar to training mode in most fighting games even .... SMASH BROS which gets so much hate from the FGC and SFC in general sadly :(.
But anyway i will agree that it does take experience first to kinda get what you should be training for but its still not hard to know what to be doing in training mode at all. Nice find but i just disagree with their stance as they are suggesting training mode is almost unheard of by everyone except "professionals".
You know what the problem is with many players. They don't want to play just 1 game or 1 genre. They want to play Skyrim & Call of Duty & Battlefield & NBA2K & Mortal Kombat &....
To learn a game like SF at a decent level takes time, you don't have time to play much other games.
@ samurai
true but honestly i would never just exclusively play SF even though i do play it the most. Its because there are other games out there that are really good too. IF you do want to get better more time should be put into Street fighter. Id never even bother with improving in shooters as there isnt much to learn other then just learning how people play and then learning how to aim and what not thats pretty boring if you ask me. I enjoy street fighter because you learn how to fight by using a character you like and learn why his or her style is good bad or in the middle according to matchups and viablilty.
One thing i hate about trial/mission mode is that it goes from one extreme (way too simple) to another (extremely hard and pointless combo in a real match). The hard and pointless ones annoy me more. They will often be created to challenge the players execution rather than teaching them core bnb's. Often you'll learn this pointless combo with muscle memory to pass a trial, then only to find out by adapting a few of the hits, its made ten times more easier and practical in a match. I only use those modes now to see what is possible, what is linkable or cancable, how you do that move after that move etc etc rather than attempting to complete all characters combo trials
Also KOF13 has took one step further by showing a video demostration of the trials which makes some of the more difficult timing and executions of trials mroe simple.
I believe it's the Trial Mode, not Training Mode, that is the issue.
In any case, learning to execute a jab, jab, shoryu isn't really difficult once the player understands the timing needed to do it. Gamespot is pointing out that the idea of having to "work" for this kind of information is problematic when compared to the 10 seconds it would take to explain in-game.
@foolly #28
I don't want a "all chainable" system or a 1 button ultra kind of thing. I agree that's stupid as well.
What I'm saying is, you don't see tournament players win over mechanics like "oh, those 2 lights chained so the special didn't come out, he lost semifinals!". That just counts for newcomers. My point is, if that doesn't make a difference in high level, take it off.
Better players will stand out because they will know when to do one move or another, they will have baits, better tactics and defense. Those years spent that you mentioned won't be lost.
Another thing, scrubs that do shoryuken all day. The combo system should take this into consideration. For example:
Single shoryuken - 160 damage. Jump in roundhouse, sweep - 200 damage. That is what 90% of newcomers do. The rule to reward better players should be that a sweep or special should do more damage after a link or a couple or hits, for instance.
single SRK (Special does only 50% damage)
cr.Mp > cr.Mp > Shoryuken (Special does 100% damage)
The same thing could be applied to jump in > sweep (or jump in > SRK)
If you grant 200 or 250 damage on a simple brainless move like that, you don't encourage newbies to learn more complex combos.
Some people don't have the time to invest into fighting games. The best way is to add gems. Win win.
I disagree with GameSpot. Since SF2, Capcom didn't give the players the tips on how to PROPERLY play the game. It's the players that found out many different strategies on how to play with certain characters. In fact, at that time, guys like Alex Valle, Watson and many others have explored the game and created tons of strategies and they share it with other players. Right now, we have the internet with many top players teaching us on how to play the game, watching high level matches etc and that is a huge advantage compared to the time where OGs would have to learn the game the hard way. Also, training mode should stay the way it is and like what SAMURAI said, it takes time to learn a game like SF and it's the player's own determination and commitment. Casual players just wanna be spoon-fed by Capcom because those players don't really have passion and they play a variety of games lol.
@ 10: I did read it. He was mentioning Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition. Not Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3
Some have already mentioned it, but I feel it needs to be emphasized...
VIRTUA FIGHTER 4
VIRTUA FIGHTER 4
VIRTUA FIGHTER 4
VIRTUA FIGHTER 4
It was the #1 fighting game when it was released.
Repeat: It was the BEST FIGHTING GAME of its time for a reason!
Find an old copy of VF4 and either a PS3 that can play it, or an old PS2. Even if you've NEVER played any fighting game before, after you go through that game's Training Mode, you will have deep understanding of how the game works. It was an ingenious feature at the time and brought more serious players to the VF scene than ever before.
Unfortunately, Sega failed to include this feature in VF5 and that (along with no online features for PS3) effectively suppressed any hype for the VF series.
Every company that takes fighting games seriously should learn from both Sega's success and failure. If you want more people to buy your games, don't make them easier to play--TEACH PLAYERS HOW TO PLAY YOUR GAMES INSTEAD!!
2 cents deposited...
After posting my last comment, I realized that in gaming (just like real life) talk is cheap, so I searched and found that some guy named SWBeta pretty much goes through all of the features available in VF4:Evolution's training mode. There's no commentary--he let's the game speak for itself (which I think is a good thing). It's pretty lengthy (even though it's split into parts), so prepare for a thorough lesson. ;D
The way i see it is that yeah, you can't please everyone so no matter what newer people are going to complain about things being too hard. But this whole "Show us a preview of the combo so we can learn it" concept isn't a good idea. Where's the originality? EVERYBODY that plays Ken is going to play him in the exact same way because they learned the EXACT SAME WAY. I know most of you guys watched/watch evo. How would you feel watching it if everyone on the stream did the same combos and played exactly the same because thats the way they learned it? It would be boring as hell. When we're playing online you don't want to encounter the same type of competition that uses the same tactics that they learned in this baby mode ass tutorial mode. You'll never learn that way and the meta-game will never improve that way if the tutorial mode teaches you EVERY SINGLE ASPECCT OF THE GAME like
What overheads do.
What moves are fireball invincible.
What chains and what links.
Figure it out yourself man. Its a part of learning the game and its an opportunity too pride yourself in what you came up with. Not what someone else came up with. When you go to bootcamp, your drill instructor doesn't "run through obstacle courses for you" to show you how its done. they tell you to get on your feet and do it yourself and in the long-run it makes you a better man/woman/person. It should be the same with fighting games. Just like you don't learn from cheating off of someone when you're taking a test. Yeah you got the A but you're still going to go out into the real world and get bodied by the B.S that life throws at you just like you'll go online or to a tournament and get bodied by the mix-ups/set-ups that your opponent throws at you. Learning is FUN (as cheesy as that sounds) its true. You won't get anywhere being spoon feed all the damn time but you'll get much farther if you have some originality and you find your own playstyle. not the "tutorial mode" playstyle.
Sensible trials and helpful training options are a must.
VF's modes are at standards that Capcom games never attempt. When the bar is set the competition should at least rise to meet it if not surpass it.
Major complaint over existing Capcom trials. No cpu example of completed trial, and no visible timer. This timer educates the player by letting them know when they're inputs are being registered and when they're supposed to be registered when viewing a completed example.
It's not about spoon feeding. The bevy of information on the internet is already most certainly helping those who need it, but the in game resources are insufficient.
They didn't bother adding in trials for the new fighters in AE and they also didn't update existing trials for the balance changes.
The parrying trials in 3S OE offer no help to those out of the loop on the specifics of timing either. There's a lost opportunity.
I highly recommend VesperArcades tutorials. They're amazingly helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/user/VesperArcade
780
this could not be any more right. I just got tatsunoko vs capcom and when I went to training mode to do some combos I didn't know how I was able to do 20 hit combos without someone tell me how to do them. I've watched a lot mvc3 matches so I probably already knew the basics but someone that doesn't know anything about the vs series would not be able to do anything more than 4 hits.
If you want a beginner to learn how to play your fighting games you need a mode that will go through a series of steps that get them thinking about how to play people in real life.
Teach them how to THINK in a match. This is a thinking mans game.
Teach them to READ OPPONENTS. Not guess.
Teach them to PLAY AT YOUR CHARACTERS STRENGTHS.
Teach them to MIX UP OPPONENTS.
Combo trials, special moves and basic to advanced tutorials while good. is just gonna teach them how to throw stuff out. It does'nt teach them how to play againts a moving, THINKING opponent.
And while going offline to learn tutorials and stuff is great not everyone thinks in that matter. It's just about getting people up to speed about playing opponents.
From #40 kazukifafner: "I also 100% disagree with the notion that something like this simply "spoon feeds" casual players who "shouldn't be catered too." I'm sorry, but that's completely asinine and is not going to help the fighting game genre.
That's like a calculus teacher who tells you to just figure out everything for yourselves like the original mathematicians did. Systems to help people understand and teach people ideas and concepts about fighting games that others have already discovered/figured out is something that should be encouraged, not discouraged.
Which is why I'm really glad that Skullgirls is going to have a strong tutorial, and I really hope other devs look at it."
- I could not agree with this more. It isn't about spoon-feeding anyone. It's about giving newer players more knowledge to start with so that they actually WANT to go search out more information and improve.
People trying to make their favorite fighting game some sort of secret club or learning the game some sort of badge of honor in this day and age is honestly irritating. Anything that would help my friends or anyone get into my favorite genre and by proxy, give me more competition to play against and eventually learn with... I'm not seeing a problem with this.
Granted, I think the author should focus more on a tutorial mode being included rather than training mode (though t could be improved as well, obviously).
Capcom is honestly behind on that - they refuse to add these things for whatever reason.
And shoutouts to everyone who mentioned Tekken's godlike demos, which not only show you how to do the moves in the command list, but also gives you audio and visual cues to show you the timing, and even has sample combos in later games to "get you started" (obviously not the best combos but they give you an idea of what's possible).
As a summary:
1. Capcom needs to improve trainning mode and then to make a tutorial mode.
Some of you believe that people can improve their skills with dedication and time, which is absolutely right, but developers could rise interest in the game for everyone just giving you easier access to the learning tools, Capcom is not doing it right.
2. Tutorial mode needs to use all these terms created for the game by the pro community, pianoing, juggling, plinking etc. I mean, plinking WTF. I've never liked these tactics that cheat the game engine, like kara throws, but if they're being used constantly online, why not to include some examples in the tutorial? Include it or fix it and delete it from the game.
3. People seems to keep on complaining for no rewarding 1 frame link combos. Y U NO listen Capcom? Top tier chars were always those with easy BnBs and no risks of punishment. Looking at Jun, there were few instances in which he could be punished, and the worst to happen was to miss a Genei Jin combo.
They could always make a single player campaign mode where the player first gets to use his specials, next level focuses on defense,the next asks the player to perform certain combos, this could be after a demonstration of said combos, the following level again shifts the focus to defense, but now against basic combos, and so on.
There could be levels that explain kara moves, option selects, cross-ups and all other elements that make up fighting games. The final level is where all these skills have to be put to use to kill the boss character(s).
Experienced players wouldn't have to play this mode and could just play arcade and vs/online, but a casual player could pick up all he needs to properly play.
Bluesman461 said what I was going to. VF4:Evo's training mode not only taught me the details (some quite complex) of the game, but it increased my appreciation of the game and its players 100-fold.
Again, it's not about being a pro player. Who cares? What if someone want's to be really really good at a game, suppose a fighting game? Why not entice the casual crowd with nice features. Not to spoon feed noobs or scrubs, but just whatever happened to loving a game for just loving a game? I know a guy who won 1000000 Blitzball tournaments in Final Fantasy X! why would he do such a thing? It took him years to do and posted a pic on Gamefaqs to prove it...well, because he loved the game that's why. Maybe the develepors don't know themselves, considering they write the best possible strategy guide when if fact the players discover and filter out the teirs and best strategies afterward..lol
Make Training Mode like VF4 Evolution's and this will never happen again. Learning game mechanics is very hard even for people who have experience in other games. Companies in general should be much more open with how the mechanics work. Training mode with hitbox and frame data coupled with a tutorial mode that explains the mechanics in depth would be incredible.
@Roknin #94. In a nutshell, because after years of expereince people talk the talk that they want the fighting game community to grow this and that, but your right. At the end of the day, they want to make it their secret club and yea sure come and play, but "don't beat me". Ahh..that's the catch. Play all you want as long as you loose to me. But when you beat a "pro player" such as myself (sarcasm intended) you are a scrub, are too random, or are just "playing the game wrong". All too many times I went to my local arcade and expereinced just that. Everyone is salty and mad when you just play better than them. "How dare this scrub or random masher beat me"..lol They get raped, don't learn or understand why they lost, and can't stand it. That is EXACTLy right...Their "Secret" Club. But thankfully that's not everyone and not the majority. But at high level play that's what I see most of the time..
@ 100
It's not about a secret club. But if a newcomer wants to beat me, he has to work for it and earn it. I had to spend countless hours in the game to learn it and I'm still not a good player. And everyone who is decent at this game put in the time and the work.
Why should they make it easier for the newcomers? If they really want to improve, they'll know what to do. If they don't want to put the hours in it, then they just don't want it enough.
@ 101
By "easier" he means, stuff that people spend countless hours figuring out, then put on some websites and you go to check that website to get the information. Once that information is out on the web, why must someone who just bought the game must go "wow, I really like this game and want to get better at it even though all I do is mash buttons, guess I better go look for combos online. Oh what's this? There's all these things I didn't know about, cool" why can't it just be someone buys the game, plays it then goes "Wow, there's all this different stuff available to me! Cool, how about I go online to check what people are doing with these cool things"
I bought SF4 when it came out. I tried trials, constantly failed at them once they involved a special move or a combo. I didn't know I had to time it, so I quit. Last June, my friend introduced me to the Team Sp00ky stream and I was like "holy crap, this is pretty cool and more exciting than I remember and how do they do all these things?" and my friend explained it to me and I got into it and everything was a lot easier just from that moment.
Having a tutorial/training/trial mode than tells you how to do stuff, does not make it any easier than having your buddy tell you you can do all this or having all the information on the web, all it does is discourage newcomers.
To be honest if the competion and the ranking system was done better it's would be more pleasant to compete . THeir ranking system is really just a chinese grinding contest of boredom . There's also no chat option or a sense of community.. It's suck ass.
Sure, chaining two light punches is hard.. not if you're Ryu or Ken.
Chaining anything shouldn't be hard because chain combos are supposed to be easy. Linking is the problem. Too bad Gamespot doesn't actually know the difference.
I think the undocumented aspect that in sf4 you can't cancel chain-cancelled attacks into a special is problematic. I guess they leave information out because in the internet age people can just look things up. Either that or laziness.