A new blog is up on the Japanese Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition website, it details additional changes for Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, E. Honda, Blanka, Zangief, Guile, Dhalsim, Balrog, Vega, Sagat, M. Bison, C. Viper, Rufus, El Fuerte, Abel, Seth, Akuma and Gouken for the beta release of the v2012 update for the game. Capcom-Unity has a terrific translation to look over, which has been posted as well here.
Cool Stuff. Will have to check back tomorrow when I get home.
That is some extreme stuff on Ryu there.
Super fast srk replaced with no room for error. And like the Bison HK nerf.
Thanks for the translations, Nyoro. Eventhubs always has the best translations for patch notes. 翻訳して頑張ってね
Whoa, some interesting changes there.
I'm so glad that Ryu's HP Shoryu is one hit again, I missed the satisfying feel it had like you were cleanly cutting through somebody with it.
Although, I'm not too happy about the no-FADCing, but whatever. MP Shoryu has the most invincibility anyway, doesn't it?
Interesting Ryu change. Can you still do Strong SRK FADC U1, I wonder? If any SRK should be non-FADCable, it should be multi-hitting ones like Ken or Akuma, not Ryu... Ah well.
MORE DAMAGE ON HADOUKENS? Capcom are you FKING HIGH?
That's the STUPIDEST/MOST ABUSED MOVE IN HISTORY AND YOU GIVE SCRUBS MORE OF A REASON TO USE IT!!!?? Look at my NAME!!
I still don't care about Dirty Bull.
On that note, how are the inputs for Honda and Rog's Ultras getting easier? Are they going from half circles to quarter circles?
I don't understand the Ryu SRK change at all. What's the point of doing 160 damage in one hit if you can't FADC out of it? Basically all this buff amounts to is one extra frame of invincibility, which is still one less than his mp SRK.
wait is this going to be added to the previous change or this is a new version of change?
Old man G Dog is gunna be smacking down some clowns! Wheey Heey!!
has the official post up already with all the characters.
More Bison nerfs qq. I don't mind really, I just wish they'd buff his wakeup game. Either invincible frames on medium psycho reversal, or decreased recovery on teleport reversal. It's all I want. Is that too much to ask? qq
Giefs buffs are nothing to worry about, I welcome them Gief needed a reason to use that H.P. HOWEVER....what in gods name is going on with Gouken, this update and the last he got one of the largest list of buffs out of anyone. He is going to be scary, veeeeeery scary.
Man, my friend told me Ryu's DP was back to one hit. I was like holy caca that's an uber buff. Then I read you can't FADC it :(
Can somebody explain to me why they made this change? I really don't understand.
Okay so fierce dp can do slightly more damage and is invincible again. You gotta hit it deep for a minor buff in damage. Strong DP does like 10 less damage and seems safer (although I'm not sure how hard it is to hit a 2 frame window AA). Either way its a +10 at best buff (everything helps).
... Rethinking, it does add +10 (plus scaling) to every combo that ends in DP and not ultra which to me is basically solar plexus combos which I guess is a nice little buff.
I <3 the up in damage on fireballs.
Oh crap. I just looked up Ryu's strong dp. 130 damage. 160 damage for AA is a pretty big buff.
the haduken now has more damage that tiger shot ... ridiculous
Gief's far st.HP is so freaking slow in both startup and recovery that you can just focus it.
Still, it's an interesting tool - I wonder how it'll actually work in practice.
I'm freaking ECSTATIC that they've made Guile's upside-down kick a worthwhile move now. Not only does it deal enough hitstun to create 2-frame link (a real rarity for him!), but it also counts as airborne now!
@ 36
Funny how Ryu got buffs for this and for MvC3. Hmm?
Almost as if Capcom wants everyone to use him.
@ #36
Given that Sagat is currently the better character - and both characters are seeing nothing but buffs (from what I remember), I fail to see why this is a problem.
Besides, Sagat's tiger shots are faster than Ryu's hadoukens - granted they have more recovery.
blanka is going to be so goddamn scary in 2012. Also, cant wait to get my hands on the new and improved gouken! I think far mp being special cancleable will be pretty much useless in combos, since you can just c.hp in any situation where you can far mp. however, it should help his footsies game out a lot.
#38 The total damage of U2 alone hasn't changed but in a combo does 50 more because of the distribution.
Ryu's Fierce DP basically gives him a better chance against Sim. Now all of his combos ending with it will do a bunch more damage!
@ 45
Capcom thought that Hadoukens arent used enough so now it's worth it!
Unlike El Fuerte's Q bomb or most of Hakan's 360K grab or Dee Jay's Machine Gun Upper. Which arent use AT ALL!!
@ #47
Cut 'em a little slack, at least they're trying to make various moves more viable - for example, Ryu's ultra 2 and Chun's lightning legs.
Remember, it's not all about the special moves in this game multiple normals are being buffed.
Plus as good a move might be, if there's a better alternative - then it'll never be used.
[far MP] -> [M. Senkugoshoha] combo is now possible for gouken is because mp palm (Senkugoshoha0 is the lp palm from SSF4.
@44:
Far mp special cancelable will allow you to combo into his mp palm which i think makes it easier for gouken to move closer to his opponents. If you do far mp into mp palm, I don't your opponent can punish you. IMO, it's a good way to chip your opponent and move in closer.
^
Ooops, I meant spinning bird kick for Chun. Ah well, there are many other moves being buffed so whatever...
I'm an Akuma player too, no changes whatsoever... paying almost no attention to the demon -.-
That buff to Gief is useless the move is so damn slow it can easily be stuffed.
I'm swiftly becoming a passionate member of the "just leave the game alone and let us play it and learn it" camp. I value balance (somewhat - I think I care about it a lot less than many people), but this is getting ridiculous. The game is years old. If we were still playing vanilla, we would still be learning new stuff. But this will be the third update, and who knows if they'll even be finished. With 3SOE to play and SFxT coming out, I'm not feeling that inspired to relearn so much. I mean, Gouken is going to be a RADICALLY different character. And that's cool, he needed buffs - but the game is three years old. I don't really feel like mastering the SSJ Gouken match-up at this point.
To sum it up, there are too many characters and I'm sick of putting in so much time and not knowing whether I can rest assured that the knowledge I'm accruing is going to be put to become irrelevant in the future. For the record, I didn't whine about vanilla Sagat, and I would have been happy with Super or even AE as the finished product. I think Capcom should release SF5 with like 15 characters and then maybe 18 months later release SSF5 with 5 more and a few small balance tweaks and then just leave it alone. Do yall think chess would have its illustrious history if they nerfed the queen and changed the moves every couple of years? One of the biggest problems with competitive gaming is that people know the games will be replaced every few years. Constant rebalancing is another issue in the same category. Video game technology is at the point where Capcom could let a game stand for 5-10 years at this point and make money with additional features and by hosting competive events or producing strategy DVDs rather than with constant balance updates.
They must be joking with Dhalsim. They buff his useless jab and rarely used yoga blast anti-air? They should improve his fierce yoga drill.
Akuma's buff is not getting nerfed bc when you're top tier it's better that they don't pay attention to you. Still, I figured they could have added an active frame to his DF Palm or something small like that.
Guile doesn't need damage increase to U2(but if they wanted to be nice maybe 20-30), but his startup shoulda been decreased.
@#61
the 2nd hit of his srk is the hit confirmation if ur gonna fadc or continue the hit, since the hit stun and frame advantage is less or bad now, srk fadc is not that safe anymore, and playing Seth is always about going offensive and letting ur opponent guess with ur mixups!
@My25CentsUp As a dhalsim player I kind of agree with you, but the fact that sims jab and blasts are rarely used is probably why they buff them. jab now has 4 active frames and better hit stun, which makes it good for for stopping divekicks and gives it other uses. The blasts has been neglected because ex and light blast have been the only ones usable. With the lowered hurtbox and lessened recovery, lk blast be more viable and even mk blast might be an ok anti air now. Hk blast with its lessened recovery and juggle properties needs to be a yomi anti air as it still has monster startup, but is possible to set up.
@59
Poe22222, I couldn't agree more on just about everything you brought up. While a lot of people don't like that Yun and Yang were so strong, I originally played Ken in Vanilla and Super and I worked very hard for the level I got to. I'm sure that my skill level comes into play with this opinion, but I didn't feel Ken was all that good of a character for the two years I played him, and I welcomed Yang as a hope that I would have more success ( I didn't play Third Strike so I knew nothing about him prior to the AE trailer).
It becomes practice to check in on forums to see what modifications to your strategy you'll need to make and I'm really getting sick of it. I find it funny that this patch is free because otherwise I definitely wouldn't pay for it and I'd simply try to pick up another game.
All right, the Vega changes are back up. Cosmic Heel > Bloody High Claw? Yeesh, too much execution to handle. It's even worse than Cosmic Heel > Splendid Claw. Hopefully this will mean that anti-air LK Scarlet Terror > Bloody High Claw will also be possible. Now THAT is a viable combo.
making seths srk -3 on block after fadc pretty much eliminated one of his 50/50 mixups. unless this is a translation error and the first hit is still safe then thats a pretty major nerf.
poongko already stated that he will switch chars if they nerfed seth some more so i wouldnt be surprised if we lost another pro seth player (and how many of that do we have? 3?)
how about you know actually giving Gief a useful lariat.
Guile needs more DMG on FAR Standing HARD PUNCH, in Vanilla it was 120.
110 would be good.
and BLANKA - if you are going to give him a buff, then pls done negate it with a nerf.
The change to Ryu's HP Shoryuken isn't a nerf, it's a buff. A good one.
MP Shoryuken will be the go-to move for FADC combos, but now HP Shoryuken is more useful for meterless combos. And more importantly, non-FADC'd anti-airs.
Looking at it as his new go-to anti-air move, Ryu's zoning damage recieved significant improvements. +10 on Hadou and +30 (from MP Shoryu) on the anti-air damage. Big damage buff.
People would still cry after this patch anyway, I mean how many pro fei or Twins players are there in the US anyway, is it because they were considered 'cheap' that no one decide to use them in tourney because of pride and honour? After seeing how many people use the 'cheap' characters in MVC3, I highly doubt it. Top tier characters requires a lot of techniques and creativity and scrubs will always cry about them being overpowered and resort to easy characters.
#82 Still ts a great buff. Finally Ex vert knocksdown which means no more getting punished on hit. Risk/Reward is how all escape moves should be Succesful you are out, Fail you get punished. Before with half the cast it was lose/lose for blanka
Plus it might set up a safe jump after as well :) Sorry about grammar and sh!t, just got off late shift. Still excited for blanka, and to a lesser extent vega.
Why are people seriously complaining about not being able to FADC out of Ryu's heavy shoryuken anymore? Just use medium, it's not a big deal, it's a slight damage nerf is all. Technically, it's better than a damage nerf, since you can use heavy shoryukens in meterless combos, and still do lots of damage.
@90
Akuma has always been a solid character dispite the low health, he has tools for everything no to mention get of jial free cards like dp fadc and teleport, vortex is extremely dangerous and has 50/50 most of the time, what else do you want? still want more for him?
I guess Capcom really wants to make Ryu a more high risk high reward type of character now. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I feel that Hadouken buff for him is gonna make his fireball game slightly more intimidating than before (enemies have to be a little more careful).
As for Gouken, man... I think Capcom wants Gouken to be seen as a top tier character. He was mid-low tier before if I'm not mistaken, but they really want him to shine in this next patch. Can't wait to try this new Gouken out.
Help for Honda and many other reasonable changes. Though there's a few I cannot make sense of, I am really liking the direction of these changes overall, and I know they are putting them to the test and willing to consider revisions and new ideas.
Knockdown on ex upball was needed for blanka. But one thing he needs is for the low short to be chainable. His main bread and butter requires mutli 1 frame links and in the world of online play that isnt gonna work most of the time.
But o well, this is it for sf4, gotta look towards the future i guess.
Overall, this game actually looks pretty balanced, though I shouldn't say anything till these things are tried out.
@ all akuma players
If I don't recall you guys were complaining and telling capcom to leave him alone, now that they do, you cry some more about how they're not changing him...Wtf
@97:
I think if we want change, we mostly want his old self back for akuma.
Wow, I am loving the Ryu changes. He's going to play different now. His poke game with fireballs will be more fierce and he will be feared to jump in on. I kind of like it.
I think E. Honda should get damage back on his attacks....he just sucks against projectile characters.
Guile will become strong again, he's got some decent buffs already.
Of course, my main man, Zangief! That's a nice buff, though the move is slow so I don't use it much...
You know what I want for Gief? The running bear grab for sfxt.....lol.
Also, as grimm mentioned, improving lariat would be nice. The move is just too slow and sniffed out in matches nowadays.
I dont want him Vanilla Style, he would wreck the whole cast... But he was perfect in Super, but in my opinion the best balanced character overall but now they just screwing around...
@93 Yeah Akuma is so strong and overpowered - how much good Akuma Players are there with good Tournament Placements? Yeah Tokido and Infiltration and Infiltration seems to like Ryu more and more... yeah and most characters can punish teleport with Option Selects or on reaction and what do you mean with free card out of jail with srk fadc?
They could atleast give him more stun on sweep, lk.tatsu sweep on the whole cast or something he can't stun s--t anymore...and to hell with the U2 Buffs its crap anyway..
why are many people crying about ryu's HP shoryuken cannot be FADCed?
current MP shoryu: 1~5f invincible, 6~16f lower body invuln (80+50)
current HP shoryu: 1~2f invincible, 3~4f unthrowable, 3~16f lower body invuln, 3~f airborne (100+50)
AW 2012 HP shoryu: 1~4f invincible, cannot be fadced (160)
A few situations that you will use shoryu:
1. combo ender (no fadc after): I see the AE2012 hp shoryu as a buff, simply more damage.
2. combo ender (with fadc after): Fine, new 2012 shoryu cannot be fadced, so it is a 'nerf', and yes current hp shoryu does do 20 more damage than a mp shoryu, but lp shoryu comes in handy here, with the same damage as current hp shoryu's first hit (100), and more stun. Overall, current hp shoryu isn't the best move here, if you are sad because the '2nd best move' got nerfed......I honestly don't know what to say..
3. Anti-air, fadc after: Current mp shoryu give 3 more frames of invincibility, while hp shoryu has 20 more damage. If you rate 20 damage higher than 3 more invincible frames in an anti-air situation, once again I am speechless. Therefore the best move is still mp shoryu, which remains unchanged.
4. Pure anti-air, no fadc:
mp shoryu: 5f invincible, 130 damage.
hp shoryu: 2f invincible, 150 damage.
ae 2012 hp shoryu: 4f invincible, 160 damage.
AE 2012 shoryu out-performs current hp shoryu in all aspects, and trading 1f of invincibility for 30 damage will be an interesting topic for the players to decide.
To conclude, the change in hp shoryu does not nerf ryu in all aspects, ryu has a better dp move (mp) anyway. Interestingly, it is a buff in some situations.
The crying on this page is like capcom saying: "the damage on the final level of Balrog's TAP is halved." and suddenly all balrog players start crying their character is now bottom tier.
One more thing, people seem to forget that +10 damage buff on fireballs "because it is only a zoning tool", if this was a -10 damage nerf, I can't imagine how upset people will become...
@Raven I don't see many Giefs adding HP to there arsenal due to its crap speed, it's funny every other character has at least a decent use for far HP but Gief *sigh*.
As for Lariat the problem isn't the speed the problem became when they removed the ability to hit a crouching opponent it makes the combo splash c.lp/c.lk into lariat useless since most characters will be crouching so it whiffs. That and it could use a tweek since it gets stuffed easy as hell and that's basically his "DP" more or less.
Also fix the hitbox on his s.HK i find it amusing that it doesn't even hit crouchers when others HK do yet Gief can have the huge hurtbox that's pretty stupid.
i double checked the changes from vanilla -> super -> AE -> v2012
i would say the overall balance is quite much more better compare from the past versions, even though there are some slight nerfs that made some characters with a whole different approach now (ex. Gouken losing his demon flip overhead), but all in all the changes from balancing the whole cast and game... its gonna be more fun playing even how old this game would be!
@#102
If it was a -10 damage nerf i would still not care about it because that's not how i use fireballs, reason why i said "Personally" on my post.
You can do all the math you like, but in practice, and for me as a Ryu player i would still rather have the ability the FADC from HP DP than the +10 damage buff on the fireballs.
Also love it that it's always "whining" when people have different opinion in this place.
Serious question, thought. Do you main Ryu?
lol @ people complaining about their A-Tier characters being nerfed. lol even harder @ people complaining about their A-Tier characters not being buffed.
And lol especially @ the people saying we should just leave the game as it is.. I mean seriously? Even after seeing a Top 8 at SBO with a SINGLE character who wasn't A tier or better? Where OVER FIFTY PERCENT were one of the twins? This out of a roster of 39 characters, where only 6-7 of them are in A or S-Tier?
I'm sorry but the only reason these kind of changes weren't done before is because there was no delivery system. With downloadable patches now easily available for all platforms there is zero reason to not do this. And to the one joker who likened this to changing the pieces in chess? Chess has been unchanged BECAUSE IT IS BALANCED. Both players get the exact same pieces, there is nothing to balance!
If there was just one character I'm sure SF wouldn't need balance changes either.
As for the actual changes... I am liking these. Ryu can still FADC his M Shoryu, so this will just benefit some of his smaller more situational combos. Gief... Does this mean his far HP is an UNTECHABLE knockdown? Because if so, DAMN. It may not be the best normal but this would be a good reason to try to land it every so often! Looking forward to seeing Gouken have some actual tools now too.
Oh right, almost forgot. Loling hardest @ people complaining about hadouken buff. It really does show you who the total scrubs are.
Anyway COME ON PART 2. That's where all the characters I really want to see are, and I don't only mean Team China, I mean my characters too! Hoping for something for Juri to make just one of her moves feel like it isn't a watered down version of something half the cast does way better. Some shoryu-invuln for M pinwheel? How about that aimable EX Divekick always instead of just during Feng Shui? Cancel counter into ultra? Just SOMETHING to make her feel like I'm not choosing someone who took a bunch of moves from other characters but can't quite do them right.
As opposed to picking Seth and getting the best moves from a bunch of characters then making them better. :|
@109 You are right, i main Akuma so i dont want Akuma to be nerfed, Yun is the ONLY truly hard matchup for Akuma so thats not the problem - but right now i see that the whole cast (except the twins,fei,viper as far as i remember) gets Buffs, how much they profit remains to be seen since i only play Akuma and sometimes Ryu so i dont think im qualified to say that now they are much stronger.
@108
What is your reason for even caring if you can no longer FADC heavy shoryuken? It's been stated in multiple posts that you can still do medium or light FADC and get the same result. And also, +10 damage on fireballs is definitely a notable buff. Saying it isn't because you "only use them for spacing" is like saying +damage on a shoryuken is useless because you only use it for the invul, more damage helps you win. I mean, have you ever lost with your opponent at just a pixel of life left? 10 more damage on a fireball you hit them with earlier in the round would've won you the game. Fireballs can also be used in combos, like a far crouching medium kick > fireball.
@#109
Ibuki alone is not A tier.
You have to consider that SBO is a team tourney and every player there is a top player, regardless of character choice.
And if we check Evo, SBO, Godsgarden and other high level tourneys, more and more characters appear in the top 8.
Many consider Juri decent already and the buffs from 2012 Alpha very good, so you just entered the group of of whiners.
@#108
Hey mate, nothing personal here and I apologize if I sounded that way, just trying to start a discussion.
I am trying to make thing clear for myself, what is so important for hp shoryu to be FADCable? Except for a combo ender I can't really figure out a reason to use hp version, but hey, AE2012 buffs the damage on hp shoryu, which makes it even better.
Also I agree on your 'different style' comment, however even if you use fireball for zoning, hitting the opponent 3 times in a round isn't all that difficult. Taking into account the damage scaling, you still get some extra damage.
It seems like capcom's plan is to give guile a bunch of minor buffs so that guile players won't complain about how much he lost in AE. These buffs are ok, but they don't make up for the loss of meter from SB's and the damage that his flash kicks and U2 did in super.
109 another good post. Agree with basically everything you said. @ 114 No clue man, I really think Chun is still very good in this game, and with all the nerfs her bad matchups are getting she is def looking like a front runner for the top tier.
Why buff Ken, he takes no skill to play and is so scrubby it's unreal. Buffing EX shoryuken is totally unneccesary.
# 112 thats why he said "a single". And I wouldnt use Evo as an example either. Yun- check. Viper- check. Akuma- check- Fei Long- check. Gief the natural counter for the twins (and backed up by viper) and Seth ( who def isnt a slouch character and is making a rise up the charts) were your only exceptions.
@ #97
That was before the Alpha vortex nerf, in case you didn't notice.
They could've given the players something to look for, even the slightest thing which wouldn't have added much to the game.
Like, making his LP DP have ANY use, at the moment it's the worst in the game (horrendous recovery, only 100 damage / 100 stun), or giving him back his trademark DP fadc Red Fireball combo, which's been useless since Super.
Capcom's really hating on Akuma lately.
Wow they made Seth even worse..-3 on FADC? That's disgusting lol.. If he whiffs one SRK he eats 60 Damn % DMG, CC is so stupid man.
Ken's sweep..really really sucks, eh, gonna make him drop a bit.
Akuma unchanged...yay
lol Gouken got a -8 frame reduction on his super? Thats good. Far Mp Special canceble? very nice, seems they are trying to buff Gouken good. Ok rest nerfs but eh.
Nice Ryu's hard shoryuken is back to 1 hit but why can't it be FADC ? SERIOUSLY ??? Wth lah !
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE BRING BACK SAGAT'S LIGHT KICK TO 1 HIT ONLY !!!!! NOT 2 !!!!!!!!!
@Poe22222 In chess, the queens properties were changed. She didn't always have the range she does now. And what's wrong with having to learn new stuff? it keeps the game fresh and keeps you on your toes. The core gameplay mechanics haven't changed they are just making matchups interesting.
@ #96
I'm pretty sure that if your character only really has 1 frame links, it's a balancing measure.
Guile is the same (until this reverse spin kick buff) and so is Vega. Imagine how stupid Vega would be if his links were all 2-3 frames? You'd never be able to stay in against him (plus he'd be able to consistently deal lots of damage at range with very, very little risk)!
Also, to all those ****-talking Ryu and Ryu-players:
You clearly don't have the brains to enjoy/respect a good zone/footsie battle and instead probably blow through all of your matchups with a combo/mixup game so that you don't need to - god forbid - use your brain.
I'm glad that they're making zoning a bigger part of this game, it was getting to the point where 30 seconds of great zoning was being completely undone with 3 seconds of crazy damage combos.
Now to say something that covers my ass somewhat:
I do both roles to some degree, so I'm not exactly biased.
GOUKEN!!!!!! (oni's voice) yes some more combo-ability don't mess with the old man I'm glad they have started paying attention to him because he's a fairly hard character to use especially when so many characters have get out of jail free cards (don any of you DARE say the Congo is one because it's NOT) looking forward to getting up there with my main man
Also, I gotta wonder:
Does Ryu's new HP have as much invincibility as his MP Shoryuken? Because I'm pretty sure that his HP Shoryuken gets stuffed pretty easily unless very well timed...
Also, how tight is it before it deals shallow damage? Sounds like it might be very difficult to achieve this extra damage on an AA.
@ #133
Yeah, I knew what it was suggesting - but I didn't know how deep that "felt" like. :P
Also, I don't see anything that compares the invincible frames of MP and new HP shoryuken in this article...
Honda ultra 2 start up frame must be changed back to 1+0 like Zangief, otherwise it is useless. The throw distance must be increased also. It is easy to jump away. I suggest to add some combos into ultra for honda. The damage must be increased back to SF4 level, honda damage like a girl for SSF4 AE. If ex HHS can add some positive frames for adv. hit, it can easier to connect HHS.
@134
I wish. I mean seriously, who gives a $hit about all of this? No matter what they change we're all going to adjust and have fun anyway.
Add a 40th character. Add a Stage DLC pack. I'll take the costumes.. Thank you for that.
Content, Content, Content! More Content, can't get enough CONTENT!!!!
Sorry y'all. I'm indifferent to the Re-Bal. I was fine with AE as it stood. I'll take it... Hope it makes you guys happy... But if the team was going to return one last time I wish it has been for....
You guessed it....
CONTENT!
@139. You are wrong. More but unbalanced content (especially if they want to SELL it) is much more worse than lesser, but balanced content. This is Street Fighter, not Call of Duty, and you may belive you know this, but if you keep thinking like that you did in your post, you'll never understand the very basic idea of Street Fighter and what is it all about. Of course, Hugo and Poison (at least Hugo) would be nice to be added to the game, but you can't say "who cares other stuff". Hugo and Poison addon isn't even official info.
Other stuff: I just realized that after 3 years of playing Vega, I can't do the df.roundhouse - ultra 1. I know it won't combo, but should I able to do it anyway?
I have always played Ryu in SF games, so this changes are really welcome by me. I'm still waiting to see the changes on Cammy, Ibuki, Makoto and Juri (my other characters of choice).
Also, Gouken is going to be a beast in the right hands.
Oh, and a BIG LOL about me "understanding" Street Fighter. I'm not an 09er son.
I'm 32 years old and SF1 was my first game. Played every version since then. I eat, breath, sleep and $hit SF.
Every game, Art books, figures, statues, movies, T-shirts (That I Made Myself!), Fight Sticks, modded Fight Sticks, and I'm an Artist sculpting my own line of SF statues! And I'm building an Arcade cab!
And believe it or not... I do this stuff in my spare time (at night mostly). I'm a family man full time lol.
Believe me, I understand everything about SF. I just find this "Gimmie this, adjust that, buff him, nerf her" topic played.
Later I'll write a five paragraph story about why AE's balance was the BEST of the 4 series. Hopefully the Re-Bal can do it one better, but I wanted CONTENT!
I can't front,I agree with aluppoj (mostly). I too would've liked some new content (like the places in the intros to vanilla and super made into stages) but balance wise I think capcom beasted on the twins tho I do appreciate how rushdown chars were top for a change. Also it took skill to use each of the tops as opposed to super with charge chars all top.Any1 with a basic understanding of the game could use them.
Gouken hmm...still they should give him back his old counters...
SSFIV Gouken might be still stronger than 2012 gouken.
The fact that when people jump in on you, u are forced to use EX counter instead because u do not know if the jump in will hit mid or high....Meter wasted.
@146
Thanks, and for sure... Ssf4 has some boss stages, but when you play this game as much as we/I do, these stages can get a little stale.
COD can get map packs all day long.. How about one freaking stage dlc pack.
See how it sells. If ppl buy it make more. It's not rocket science. Obviously a $hit load of ppl would buy it. They keep making costumes... We keep buying them.
Oh I could hear it now. Droves of retards saying " I'm not paying for something that should have already been in the game, durrrr".
So sad.
@aluppoj - on the last point again I agree mostly. cuz in the case of 3sO charging for possibly multiple packs of atrocious pallet swaps we could've made better ourselves with a genuine color edit mode is kinda criminal. especially since almost every other company puts some variation of it in their games free of charge.
@Aluppoj
looking forward to your "five paragraph story", it'll be interesting to find out how severely nerfing half the cast & introducing the twins = best balanced SF4.
Nice blog by the way, i'm 45, married, 2 daughters, i've also been playing Street Fighter since SF2, I'm having chicken for dinner & i'll probably take a crap later but i haven't decided which hand i'll be wiping with, but i'll be sure to keep you informed.
@ 116
"I really think Chun is still very good in this game, and with all the nerfs her bad matchups are getting she is def looking like a front runner for the top tier."
funny how some continue to think she's very good in that game, where she's almost inexistant in high level tournaments, almost everybody don't care about her, like 3/4 of the cast. strangely, now she has some good new stuffs planned fo 2012, it's also funny there's almost no complaint about her buffs, perhaps cuz most don't believe (anymore) she can be one of the best characters.
@151
Lol, if your a 45 year old man be mature and try not to sound so salty in your reply to me. I have three daughters and a son btw, so I've got you beat in the "I've got more kids" category. And you win the "Weird old dude" category:)
While I'm going to skip the "five paragraph" this time, I will enlighten you with a brief synopsis of my opinions. Btw, I have written the big post in previous threads... But I'm getting tired of pumping my opinion. Because who really cares anyway.
SSF4 AE:
1) The "Top Tiers" and vastly more manageable than the "Top Tiers" in Vanilla or Super.
Vanilla Sagat? Vanilla Ryu or Rufus? Are you kidding me? How about Super Guile, Bison, Chun or Honda. At least the AE top tiers need to go in and attempt to combo.
2) The "Low Tiers", a few examples: Hakan, Makoto, Guy, Seth, Juri, Gouken, Sakura, etc etc etc, the list goes on. Have NEVER been better in the sf4 series. I'm not saying every match is great for them, but they are a hell of a lot closer than they were in Super.
3) The "A/B" list team, Examples: Balrog, Ryu, Akuma, Rufus all received slight nerfs... Again, making match ups a bit better for the low tier characters.
Hey, I play Balrog. Am I happy about his crappy HeadButt recovery time? No! Because I'm unhappy about a nerf does that mean the game is unbalanced or broken? No!
Wake up dude. People were calling for a Re-Balance BEFORE the game even hit store shelves! Based on the opinion of the competitive scene.
Meanwhile the "Top Tiers" everyone was sooo scared of have FAILED to dominate the competitive scene unless Daigo, Mago or Fuudo is using them! And I'd argue those guys would do just fine regardless of character choice.
The mass hysteria that went on leading up to launch was sickening. The Yun/Yang army never came.
Just my opinions.
@154: 'The top tiers have failed to dominate the competitive scene'...except SBO and EVO, but who cares about THOSE?
'The Yun/Yang army never came'. So the 30+ Yun Grandmasters in Japan don't mean a thing?
@155
Are you playing them? Are they dominating you? Can those players only reach GrandMaster with Yun? Maybe it's that he was a New character so a bunch of people were eager to use him.
Maybe they're all trying to X-Copy Daigo?
Who knows, who cares. AE is fine as is. But I'm sure the Re-Bal will be great also.
I don't play Yun, I don't play Yang, I don't play Fei. And I have no beef with any of these characters.
Thanks for only commenting on the last sentence of my post. Here is AE in a nut shell.
Super Ryu vs Super Hakan
AE Ryu vs AE Hakan
You tell me which game Hakan stands a better chance. That's the basic story with the entire game!
If you answered Super, you need your head examined.
@154 because they were low tier in a previous iteration doesnt mean you can keep referring to them as "the low tiers" unless you wanna group Guile in such group. He was horrible in Vanilla before he became great in Super. Yes, Makoto, Guy , and seth were low in Super but they sure arent now. Hell I think Makoto is A tier and most tier charts agree. Uryo showed Sakura isnt low at all. When a character goes from low to high, you cant state "see even the low are viable!" because they are no longer low. Also does it matter if a character goes from C-B or even A if the top characters still demolishes them? everything ends up picking top tier anyhow or said characters bad matchup, or not doing worth a damn in tourneys . Thats not balance imo
I'd also like to add that I had no problem with the balance in Super either. I loved Vanilla, Super and AE.
But the strange attitude that Super was some GDLK pinnacle of balance is hitting way off the mark.
Take it from me, a person that liked both games and is judging on a Match by Match basis. Looking beneath the surface of the Community/Pro propaganda.
The_Goddamn_Master and I seldom share the same point of view. But I can tell you that he's been Bashing the game based on Pro feedback since long before he ever played the game.
I find this Mindless Sheep mentality distasteful and discusting.
Also when making a balance game, you arent aiming for casual crowd playing with friends. You're aiming for the tourney scene. Viable isnt oh i can play and have fun with this characters. Its is this character a viable choice to win a tourney. A.E Hakan or Super didnt stand a chance. Super Ryu did. A.E ryu doesnt. In summary alot more character choices won tourneys in Super than A.E.
And i dont play ryu in case anyone was wondering. I play Blanka, a lil Vega, and some Cody for fun. Goddamn Im hyped for EX vertball lol
@157
Right.
1) Your not getting what I'm saying.
2) Your proving my point!
Super Makoto was an example of a Low tier. Not Any More!!! AE made her great!
So again I'll use my crude example.
Super Akuma vs Super Makoto
AE Akuma vs AE Makoto
You pick the game!!! You see what I'm saying? This happened for virtually every character in the game!
Bringing the Up, Down and the Down, Up reaches the MIDDLE! The Middle = Balance!
And even if it isn't Perfect Balance, it's at least closer than Super!
#161 You arent getting what im saying.
1) I was just pointing out you cant call guile high tier", and Makoto "low"
2) Im looking for tourney Balance. I honestly dont care how good hakan or whoever on the bottom does against a midtier character. I care how they do against the top. Can Hakan win against Yun, Viper, Yang, or Fei? No? Scratch him off. Keep going through this list until you get choices that overall can hang with those characters. Now do this with Super. Yes you might have a few more "Low Tiers" who cant win against anyone in Super but I guarantee you have alot more characters who cant win against A.E top tier, then the cast in Super. BAsically Super had more tourney viable characters aka choices who could win it all. A.E has maybe 6.
Im not trolling. Its a different opinion. Id rather have more tourney viable characters than overall balance. Im sure alot of ppl will agree with me. When playing with friends, skill set will determine who wins (assuming you all arent Daigo, Mago, and Tokido etc) But when players of that high equal skill level sit around, chances are matchup will determine who wins
Besides who are you to judge some ones credibility off an opinion? Thats pretty pretentious of you
"Take it from me, a person that liked both games and is judging on a Match by Match basis. Looking beneath the surface of the Community/Pro propaganda."
And other ppl arent? What makes your opinion so great?
Again,
I'm not calling them High tier or Low tier in the SAME GAME! I'm talking about the different Match ups and how they changed from Super to AE!
You listed a PERFECT example.
Super Guile = High Tier vs Super Makoto = Low Tier = Makoto gets her A$$ beat!
AE Guile = Mid Tier vs AE Makoto = High/Mid Tier = Makoto now has a effin chance to WIN!!
In Super she would get killed in that match! In AE it's at the Very least a close fight!
And if your talking about Tournament viability... Didn't Dimenion (spelling) just win a Major with his Nerfed Guile? And what did your High tier, "Tournament Viable" Makoto win?
The Game isn't balanced by Tournament Results friend. Your thinking is mixed up.
What makes my opinion so great?
I show an objective opinion. I don't follow like a mindless fool. I wait to play the game before forming an opinion.
I don't trash something for months before the game was released based on what people told me I should think.
And I'm a Special Person. Very smart and very handsome.
:P
Okay, you say that low-tier characters now have more of a chance to win, which is, for the most part, true. They've either been buffed just so or their bad matchups have been hit so badly that they can now compete...to a certain extent.
The big problem is that the top-tier characters are SO much better than the rest of the cast that the little buffs the 'peasants' got mean absolutely nothing. For all you bashed Honda, he was extremely rare, both online and off-, even when he was at his most damaging. Chun-Li, while terrifically solid, was a zoning character and thus not as popular, even in the era the 3S purists call 'downback fighter'. (Not getting into Guile because this is getting way too long, but for the most part, I agree with you that he was OP, although he's definitely the weakest of the 'mascots' of each version thus far.)
You seem to want things both ways when it comes to tournament results. You point to high-tier characters not doing as well as some of the prerelease hype would have had us believe, but then you turn around and say that tournament results don't matter...
@167 You are assuming a lot of things. You are also totally missing my point. I said IDC about "overall balance" just tourney balance. Read 169's post. He is hitting the nail in exactly what I'm talking about.
@169
Well, while it sounds like you at least understand what I'm saying. For that I'm thankful.
But I'm sorry, again we don't agree.
I happen to think that
AE Hakan vs AE Yun is way better than:
Super Hakan vs Super Guile.
In fact I feel that all of the Low Tiers have a better chance against Yun, Fei, Yang, than they would have against the Top tiers from Super or Vanilla.
But it's about Majority. All three games had Top Tiers. I guess we'll agree to disagree. But excluding Top Tiers from all three games I feel that AE has the best center.
As for the Tournament crap... I don't want it both ways. My point was mearly a counter point to one of Keyserjose's comments.
@Keyzer
I just don't have time to get into this with you. But you just said it in your last post...
"I don't care about overall balance".... Your words, not mine.
If that's how you feel than you don't belong in this conversation. No offense. We are talking about overall balance between AE and Super.
Your ideas regarding Tournament placement = Balance is ludicrous. And I don't agree with you anyway.
I feel AE's closer to center balance creates more viable characters overall.
Refer to my Makoto vs Guile example. That's two Tournament Viable character now. It used to be one!
You see?
@171: OF COURSE it's easier for a slightly better grappler to get in on a rushdown character than a worse version of the same character to get in on a defensive character!
@172
Omg! I love it! Your agreeing with me in TOTAL NOW! but still making it sound like your arguing with me!
Just admit it Master! You've read my posts and you've seen the light!
The game everyone said was "broken" is in fact the MOST balanced version of SF4!
@ 171
!) I dont consider Guile tournament viable honestly because the one Dieminion one had no Top Level Yuns or Yangs. I consider it more a fluke honestly, and D is just a hell of a player. How well did any guile do in Evo? Hell not one made it to SBO i think. THOSE are majors to me. Upstate newyork just doesnt have alot of top tier representation (besides fei) so that throws the balance off. Im sure you'e gonna disagree but whatever. I thought you said Makoto hasnt won one.. so then bam not tourney viable in your words.
Im gonna stop arguing because you are not gonna change your stance. Some people prefer Super, Some prefer A.E. I just hope 2012 attempts to make as many characters that have a chance of winning a tourney (i mean why the hell else would u go to one? ) than oh these 30 plus characters all have real close matchups but are all f$ck3d if they have to fight these 4 godlike characters. Do you understand?
Won?
I don't think so Keyserjose. No Way Jose!
The match ups were just as bad if not worse for the Low tiers before! And even if my point is proven you'll just call it a "Fluke".
So we should probably end this. I guess AE made Seth and Viper "Tournament Viable" ay? Or maybe.... Just maybe....
It had something to do with the PLAYER controlling them. Who knows, who cares.
You guys seem to think I didn't like Super... I freaking loved Super! But going by the numbers AE creates more even Match ups than any other version of SF4!
I don't get a prize for being right dude. I've listed several examples of favorable power shifts in AE. Where previously USELESS characters at least have a fighting chance!
If you gents are going to close your eyes to that... Well, I just don't know what to say.
It seems like the Master had come around. Maybe you will too.
Peace.
176 I doubt the master has "come around." He didnt agree with your point.
"I don't get a prize for being right dude." God you sound like a D bag.
Bye
"I don't get a prize for being right dude."
"And I'm a Special Person. Very smart and very handsome."
"Take it from me, a person that liked both games and is judging on a Match by Match basis. Looking beneath the surface of the Community/Pro propaganda."I find this Mindless Sheep mentality distasteful and discusting."
I said you sound like a d bag, not you are one. Awesome reading comprehension. A pretentious one at that. Im suprised you dont play Vega. Im not responding anymore.
Faie enough. My bad. I guess we are at the point we usually get to, We'll agree to disagree. For the record, I agree that A.E is more balanced except for the top tier. Hence Why Supers more tourney viable imo. But again its my opinion. Have a good one, im gonna watch Guard crush then WNF.
Im in Korea (stationed) Xbox live, psn network wouldnt let me switch networks
Yea. SGT. 9 years next month. Appreciate it. Peace, Im sure we will continue this discussion next time the changes come out lol
Just throwing my opinion
I think that in terms of balance, AE is better, if we take out Yun, Fei and Yang. I think that almost all people can agree with this in some point (maybe i am wrong).
Adding these 3 top tiers char, i really don´t know. I think it depends of skill level. Seeing high level play, i can only assume one thing or two.
I don´t like the nerf to Ken, i don´t know why they took out the sweep from his combo.
Viper nerf is ok. Seth...i don´t know.
The changes to ryu are consistent. They are improving all his specials and the worthless U2:
Hadoken buff is fine. The air tatsu too (from the Beta). HP SRK?
Anti-Air - the only one that was useless was HP SRK, so i guess dealing 160 dmg, instead of 130 dmg with MP SRK is fine. The FADC done when someone jumped at you still didn´t change, It was more usefull to use MP SRK » FADC » U1, so i guess nothing changed here.
FADC - They took out this option from HP SRK, so it means that this move is only usefull to anti-air (and maybe to combo ender) LP SRK is still functional. But MP SRK is the one.
Combo Ender - +10 dmg to an combo ender is not so great (someone said that was great damage), so in this area, there isn´t a great change, almost worthless.
Capcom still think that Rog and Akuma are ok, which is fine.
@Aluppoj
"Way to end your lame argument. You scored major cred by calling me a D-Bag.
Thought we were having a good clean debate. I won't sink to your level.
J/K You Fu<kin Penis."
that my friend was hilarious.
Not that I want to continue this crazy debate, but I have to add one last thing.
I agree with you guys that Yun, Yang and Fei can beat the Sh!t out of most of the cast.
But I truly believe that AE has the Weakest (easiest to beat) Top Tiers of all three games. All three take at least some skill to be dominant. The Top dogs in Vanilla and Super were not only stronger, but easier to use at a basic (scrubby) level.
I mean c'mon
Vanilla Sagat, Ryu and Rufus > Yun, Yang and Fei.
Super Guile, Bison, Honda > Yun, Yang and Fei.
And remember, those match ups were better for the old Top Tiers because a good chunck of the cast was really weak. AE gave a ton of buffs to the Low tiers. By default giving them at least a BETTER chance against the Top Tier.
Plus all three of AE's top tiers are Hand to Hand fighters. No Turtling, no charging, no hiding. Yun, Yang and Fei MUST go in.
Anyway, I'm glad we all seem to be on the same page about the rest of the cast. The Top Tiers will remain highly debated I'm sure.
@Aluppoj
I know that we will have another 3 new top tiers, Capcom already know (in my opinion) that creating balance in a game where there is a great diference in styles for each char, and giving buffs and nerfs, it will only make position shifts. I think that this is not about creating balance, this is about refreshing the game and make the costumers happy (by nerfing hard the twins, slighty Fei and Viper, also seth and buff the rest).
I actually agree with what you said, this AE top tiers seems better comparing to Vaniila and Super (No Turtling, no charging, no hiding). However, Yun and Yang pressure are crazy, when you are fighting with someone good with them, it seems that you already lost, i don´t know, i hate lame fights, but their pressure didn´t help their case in this patch, the hate was too big (assuming that the nerfs to the super top tiers also contributed to the Big hate).
People that hate the twins and fei either never used them or have little knowledge of them. I guess the biggest complaint is their pressure game with dive kicks and rekka? a perfect dive kick that hits the foot which links to a combo is harder than you think it is against good players who constantly buffers dps, also all characters in the game has normals to deal with dive kicks because of its angle (ryu: st.lk, cr.mp, st.mp, st.hk for example) fail attempt means punish, consider their low health, they cant take too many of those. To paraphrase my comment 86, I'll say my point again:
People would still cry after this patch anyway, I mean how many pro fei or Twins players are there in the US anyway, is it because they were considered 'cheap' that no one decide to use them in tourney because of pride and honour? After seeing how many people use the 'cheap' characters in MVC3, I highly doubt it. Top tier characters requires a lot of techniques and creativity and scrubs will always cry about them being overpowered and resort to easy characters.
I want to offer two changes for Claw:
-[Sky High Claw] Will not come out on button releases. Do this please!
-[Bloody High Claw] Reduce damage. Change properties add this Ultra 1 cancel for all normals. Charge about 60f. It will do this Ultra usefull as combo comeback. Differntly there is no situations there Ultra 1 better then Ultra 2 if not to kill last one:)
I'm just hoping that Dhalsim's yoga blast will launch the opponent into the air for a combo set up. It seems like he's the only character without a launcher attack or a useful overhead. Dhalsim needs some love too.
@My25CentsUp Sorry to go in on your messages, but you are the only one commenting on the Dhalsim changes:P Dhalsim isnt made to do comboes etc, he is a zoner, and capcom wants to limit his damage output combo vice. If you read the changes from a while back, Dhalsim will have the ability to combo after hitting an opponent with HK blast in v 2012.
As for a bad overhead: Dhalsim has a great overhead! He can combo and hitconfirm it into short slide->super. The problem is not his overhead, but the way he plays. As a Dhalsim payer, it is very rare to find yourself in a position where 1)you are right next to an opponent at his wakeup and at the same time 2)have your opponent wakeup in a down-back possition without pressing any buttons:P
@#147: Just read the jump-in...there are other ways around it. Im scared to use his Kongo now...lol...i had no other choice but to switch it up.
more buffs for chun li.. thanks god!!! my opinion, more characters like Karim, birdie.. end second rival for everyone!
lol seems like after all the bs that vanilla sf4 was the most balenced game we had....oh well
Ready for more!