Mike "Olaf" Spragg from the Cross Counter website posted a blog discussing the changes to the Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 cast and design choices. This is a pretty interesting read about a bunch of controversial changes.Jill
People have commented on their concerns here, but I'll reiterate some of it. Jill was a DLC character. Jill was hard to use. People realized the top 5 characters of the game were really good long before people thought Jill was playable. Hell, some characters were found to be good before Jill came out. The game was in the hands of the public for less than a year. Capcom found stuff that was good, the public, less so. So, because Capcom found it, they nerfed her slightly before we had a chance to make her good. Way to encourage people to buy and play your character.
Hell, a smarter move might have been to buff her slightly, and then when people found your supposed broken tech, patch it out or something. Or hell, DON'T! Reward people for learning to play a tough to use character!
Regardless:
- All attacks float a little higher - This means that some of her jump loops will hit the opponent too high to continue comboing. That sucks.
- Slightly reduced hit box sizes of all jumping attacks - Hah! this nerf actually stacks with the above nerf, removing a lot of jump comboability. Good thing she has all those jump cancels! Oh...wait....crap.
- Slightly decreased forward moving range of cr.M - Melee only character, nerfing her slide distance. Well, I could talk about this now, or you can wait until I get to She-Hulk to see the full fury of this design decision. At least with Jill it's less painful, since she has a lot of other options, and her slide wasn't ridiculous, but it may make some low hit confirms harder.
Tip emailed in by GoukiRocha.
We're getting a balance patch this winter so why is everyone bitching? All you have to think if it's not in the arcade version it isn't permanent.
I honestly CANNOT WAIT to use the newly improved Dormammu.
THE DREAD DORMAMMU FOR S TIER!!!
Kinda makes me wish they woulda made a Dark Dimension stage. That'd be sick! (Though there'd be nerd rages about how Dormammu is at his peak strength in his own dimension.)
I know not being able to block while dashing is bad, its really just so you know when to do it, and if the person is infront of your face then attack dont think your gonna be suck on air dash.
Hsein-ko's gong waves give her invicibility if she just walks through for a bit, I usually shoot 2 in the air then Air dash(walk) through them and J.H, works everytime, Ultimate doesnt change this.
kinda like what they did to fuerte in AE. capcom makes very stupid decisions sometimes. btw fuertes a fag and im living the good life not maining him. anyone who mains him should drop him too.
P.S dont forget pick him back up in 2012 and say nice things about him :)
I can't stand all this whining...NO ONE can air dash block anymore not just Morigan. Phoenix unplayable? are you serious? she can still S.j fly tkshot.tkshot.teleport. so what if she has to fly to get 2 tkshots? and hello Dark Phoenix?! and okay jill got some nerf wahh. go cry a river ffs. how can you cry about a game before it's even out, and find new ways to get in? isn't that was assists are for? a whole news update for someone whining? really?
(I'd rather Jill be nerfed and we not know about her "dark phoenix" status than JWong/etc. pick her up because everyone else is nerfed and use her "dark phoenix" tech)
Love that pithy pseudo-sarcasm. oh...wait...crap...I don't.
@12
I couldn't agree more with what you just said. I seriously stopped reading when the article devolved into complaints about Wesker.
I use Morrigan and I honestly don't think the lack of blocking out of air dashes will effect her all that much as her dashes were sh*t in the first place (sluggish, had heavily punishable start-up that couldn't be blocked out of and would be stuffed by anyone with an even decent projectile if not covered by an assist), sans her faux double jump ('up' air dash).
Nothing has changed for her at higher levels of play...she's still heavily reliant on assists to get in on the opponent. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything so I'm just gonna do what I always do: find a way around the issues my characters have, easy as that.
Nothing against Olaf, I've read his articles in the past and thought they were good...but this one I could've gone without reading. I really hope that at least some of what he typed was journalistic exaggeration...or at the very least sarcasm.
Olaf makes some good points and proves this: NEVER let Niitsuma and/or his team near another fighting game EVER AGAIN!!!
He normally writes good articles but this one came off a bit too whiny for my taste. He has some good points here and there, but for the most part i have to agree with capcoms buffs/nerfs.
-She-hulks slide was over-used and she has a lot more tools for getting in that can now be explored. They even gave her 3 hits super armor on her run.
-Trish was one of the most annoying characters to fight because all she did was Jump, float, projectile, trap, projectile, the whole match. Matches normally ended in time out with her. Now she has to fight just like phoenix.
-Wesker I would love to complain here, but I'll deal with it.
*with 12 new characters being added it's a indirect nerf to most teams. We most likely not see the new "yun" aka wesker because so many other options to choose from. Many other characters got buffed so again. We may see more Felicia, super-skrull, spider man, hulk, captain america, dr. doom,ryu, chris etc....
it seems alot of the new cast will be really good and alot of the other cast got nerfs or small buffs or in wesker's case buffs LOL well we will see how these nerfs will effect the older cast vs the new cast I dont like that they gave hawkeye she hulk's slide tho
Geez, I think some of ya'll need to chill out. So he has an opinion about the changes that he would like to express. That doesn't making him worthy of being criticized over. Everyone who reads the changes has their own opinion about them. Deciding to keep your mouth shut about them doesn't make you any better or worse than the person who decides to speak up about them. Honestly, I love reading and hearing about other peoples opinions over things like this. I like comparing them to my own personal opinion to see other perspectives I might not have thought of. And he does actually make some good points about the "pointlessness" in some of the nerf/buffs that were made. I.E. Taking a property from a melee char(She-Hulk's slide) and giving it to a char made for zoning(Hawkeye). I mean, c'mon, that is kinda dumb lol. If they're gonna buff zoning, don't nerf rush down along with it. That'll just make nonzoning chars almost unplayable without an assist, which I think is kinda stupid. >.>
And for you all saying, "blah blah blah, you don't have the game yet, blah blah blah"...I'm sorry, but you guys are noobs lol. I hate it when people say stuff like that. If you are well versed in a game/char, then it is very easy to be aware of the future possibilities if any changes are made.
But anyway, all you guys complaining about his "whining", just don't talk lol. Because you're all being hypocrites without even realizing it. If you don't want to read it, ok, fine, but don't go popping off about it either. Otherwise you're just as bad as you think he is, because you're whining about his whining. You want him to keep his opinions to himself, then you keep yours to yourselves as well.
And go ahead and try to say something about me whining about your whining. The difference between me and you is that you call it whining, I call it expressing opinions and actually LIKE to hear what people have to say, even if I don't agree with it. So if you don't like to hear people's opinions, then keep it to yourself.
@22 When you write a article you will always be criticized. There is no way around it. If you express your opinion then you best believe people are going to express theirs. Agree or disagree. Right now you sound like a hypocrite because apparently you don't like to hear other peoples opinions.
Take your own advice-"But anyway, all you guys complaining about his "whining", just don't talk lol. Because you're all being hypocrites without even realizing it. If you don't want to read it, ok, fine, but don't go popping off about it either. Otherwise you're just as bad as you think he is, because you're whining about his whining. You want him to keep his opinions to himself, then you keep yours to yourselves as well."
@23
Nah, I just brought up a character that I use because, well, it's a character that I use. Had I talked about, say, She-Hulk who I don't use at all what I said would've been based on what I've seen rather than what I know for sure so it would've been largely unfounded.
I was just kidding -maybe exaggerating is a better word- about stopping when I reached the Wesker part (some of which I do agree with). I didn't hate the article, I just felt it was sub-par compared to his other stuff.
All I can say about MvC 3 Jill is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7MpE_...
Hmmm... a very "interesting" read. I personally enjoy listening to others' opinions as long as they remain mostly unbiase and aren't filled with immature ranting. I agree with some of his opinions, while others, not so much.
Jill: I am sorry, but I disagree on this. I love Jill and am disappointed to see nerfs to her. However, if she does possess broken tech it's good that they took care of it now.
If what they say is true it's fine with me. No character should have broken tech (note: I'm not sure if it is truly "broken tech". I'm just saying 'cus I'm unsure what it truly is.) regardless of useage or difficulty level. Anyone who puts in the time can eventually master those tricks making the game become broken down the line. I would, however, like to hear from Capcom what truly was game-breaking, broken, what-have-you so I can make a better judgment on the nerfs
Now, Wesker: I honestly agree with what he has to say on this. However, I will say that I remain unsure. The changes might be fair for him since the game's mechanics have been tweeked and new characters have been introduced. However, this theory does seem null-and-void when they nerf other characters FAR worse than Wesker. I too hope we don't see a million Weskers in UMvC3, but I don't want to see any character overused. Keep in mind new characters are getting introduced and old characters I feel were underrated are getting even better. Look at Ryu: Had good normals before, quite abit of health, is going to be able to cancel his overhead now, can now attack immediatley after a dash (I think?), a Denjin Mode, along with alot of other buffs. Who is to say him, Vergil, etc. might not be overused?
Morrigan: Can't you just flight cancel then unfly to make her dashes safer? I'm not a Morrigan player so I'm unsure, but I'd imagine you could. True it means you'll have to throw them out less willy-nilly, but that's where the strategy part comes in. It seems to me Capcom is trying to accent flight-canceling with alot of in UMvC3 just like zoning.
@29
Yeah, it's possible to flight cancel Morrigan's dashes to make them relatively safe with good prediction and reaction time. A fairly safer method though is to activate flight pre-dash, and then just cancel it when the player feels they're in danger. No different than crouch-cancelling a ground dash once the player gets used to it.
As for what you said about Wesker that's pretty much my outlook. He'll probably be highly used again, but who's to say the new characters or buffed characters (Ryu like you said) won't be used even more? There are just too many variables (both known and probably unknown) for now to say for sure.
im not really complaining im just throwing out the truth morrigan can dash without going in the air even a lil bit she doesnt have a ground dash so to say soo when you try to close in on your opponet you left open in any situation and flying and unflying is just way to slow to be effective
@#31 I agree with you 100% on the Wesker thing. I think you said it better in those short couple of sentence then I did in that long paragraph. Wesker is overused not only 'cus he is high-tier, but 'cus he is an extremely popular character within his franchise. That alone gives good reason to believe he will be played alot in UMvC3 regardless of tier same as Dante, Vergil, etc. Nice to see some who shares my point-of-view.
Thanks, for the Morrigan info. I literally think she is the character I've used the least. Perhaps that's why I've been considering messing around with her until UMvC3 drops?
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i understand the Jill nerf cuz she was more than top tier worthy if it wasn't for how damn technical a character she was. did good damage with combos, a super that countered pretty much ANYTHING, fastest character in the game, and Mad Beast was Pandora's Box waiting to be opened. she's not pick up and play friendly but like mvc2 sentinel she'd be discovered late and shoot to the top easy.
@19
One thing to keep in mind though is that Capcom keeps reiterating that UMvC3 is a zoning heavy game, but then why do they nerf characters that zone, and make them less capable of zoning? Also to She-Hulk, she needs the slide to get around, even more so now that the game is zoning heavy. Why remove it? Her new move is useless too, considering that it can really only be used in combos, along with the fact that input wise, it no longer allows you to option select grabs. Her 3-hit super armor on run is also useless, because there would be next to no point you would activate it on purpose, considering you need to wait for the run to activate on its own after starting Runner's Start to get the super armor, and that takes too much time in a match.
also @12, no even after activating flight to do 2 fireballs, Phoenix will not be able to teleport.
#22 And the winner of best overreaction goes to....
If any of you watched the Box Arena stream this afternoon you'd understand why Wesker wasn't super nerfed.
Viscant broke it down in good detail. Wesker as is lost a lot of matches to other high tier characters and his nerfs to the gunshot are significant nerfs. They'll affect his command grab, combos off hard knockdown, his anti-air capabilities and his x-factor abilities.
People will cry about Wesker until the game comes out. Then when it does and zoning takes over the game, he won't be a top tier character anymore and you'll see why they didn't do more to him.
I trust Viscant much more than I trust some guy named Olaf.
@#32 I stated before that I have little-to-no Morrigan experience. So, to be fair I was just throwing that out there as an option. You probably know alot more about Morrigan then I do so I'll take your word it's not a viable option. The important thing is: It is an option.
@32
That may be true, but that's why I've brought up that Morrigan relies heavily on assists to get in. This is personal opinion, but if you're dashing with morrigan without an assist covering you...then you have a damn good reason why you're doing so (I.E. the opponent is recovering from a special/hyper with a long recovery animation and have nothing short of X-Factor to cancel it) or you're not using assists properly.
Another method is triangle dashing with Morrigan which is truthfully difficult, but quite effective and capable of moving her half a screen forward with each dash if done properly. Just jump, air dash 'down', and at the lowest point of her 'swoop' perform shell kick; if done correctly Shell kick won't come all the way out, she'll hit the ground, and slide pretty far forward.
Of course much of this is irrelevent considering none of us know for sure whether or not this will still work in Ultimate. Just bringing it up since we're still speaking hypothetically for the most part.
On a side note I never bring up her 'ground' dash as it's inferior to her air dashes in every way as there's a long period of time before it can even be flight cancelled -or attack cancelled for that matter-.
Morrigan is an odd character in that her movement is more execution heavy than her actual fighting, and I think that's why a lot of people avoid using her -outside of low-ish damage output-.
@33
No problem. On the subject of Morrigan be prepared to put a LOT of time into figuring out her movement as it can be very execution heavy, especially when trying to triangle dash with her -as mentioned above-. You can actually pretty much forget her 'ground' dash even exists as it's usefulness in vanilla MvC3 is next to none (for high-low set ups flight mode into shell kick is much faster and for movement air dashes are faster-.
Her 'up' air dash is incredibly useful once you've figured out how to use it, and can be abused for tricky cross-ups with air H. Her forward and back air dashes are iffy as they're sluggish in terms of speed, but unlike other air dashes you can end them almost immediately by simply letting go of the stick and/or buttons or by performing an attack (preferably L or H).
Finally don't forget to use air soul fist L or M to cover your dashes by flight cancelling their recovery in tandem with assists and then quickly performing a down air-dash cancelled into shell-kick.
(This post ended up much longer than I expected.)
tl;dr: Morrigan's movement is heavily dependant on tricks, good reaction time, and assists.
honestly i really dont throw out my assist as much like i used to in mvc2 i dont know why i just dont but i always try to use her astral vision super too to at least try to have some advantages over my oppents....but then the damage scaling on it is horrid and also tri dashing with me is kinda hard since ima pad player if that even matters aha
They made the hardest character in the game harder. Sucks that I decided to main this character. It took me days to learn those jump loops!!
People say Modok is the hardest but at least with him you can spam keep away tools along with other keep away assist. Try doing this with Jill.
@40
Well the best way to put it is don't throw out your assists too much, especially those that aid Morrigan's mobility (let's go with a beam assist for example) as that can make them a liability and either get you 'happy birthday'd' or leave you without a reliable assist. The best time to throw out an assist with Morrigan is between when you jump and when you air dash, there's no real specific timing I can give you outside of that.
Astral Vision is actually very good for her mobility, but like her movement it's activation needs assist coverage -or be DHC'd into- as it comes out pretty slowly. Throwing out a few L soul fists in the air is a great way to deter those who wish to punish her otherwise unsafe air dashes while you jump and quickly perform a triangle dash.
While I don't play on a pad, I assure you her tri dashing is quite difficult even on a stick, not so much due to execution, but timing. If you can do her down air dash -the one that swoops down and then shoots upwards at an angle- then you can do her tri-dashing with some practice as it just requires you to hit S when she's at the lowest point of her 'swoop'. To make this easier, perform the dash as low to the ground as possible.
As I mentioned before: figuring out Morrigan requires putting a hefty amount of time into figuring out her movement. In the long run Morrigan is a solid, but flawed character that can rapidly switch between zoning and rushdown and defense and offense; luckily many of her flaws can be covered up through assists (be it assists that help her get in on the opponent, or assists that help her open them up).
Sorry for derailing this comments section into an impromptu guide to Morrigan XD
Lol I love how this guy forgets that Trish got buffed in terms of her movement being faster and all her special moves got faster as well so now she can zone on the ground better. And she's not a sitting duck after she uses a spell. I main her and know perfectly well that she can dive kick down or overhead attack to catch her opponents off guard and she can still use low voltage up to 3 times so all this does is make her zone differently
@19, 20
Agreed, it felt more like a highly biased complain rant than anything else. I was expecting a more informative/unbiased analysis of the changes.
I do agree that not being able to block during air dashes sounds incredibly stupid, though. Especially for characters with no other effective way to get in, random hypers are gonna be a *huge* pain in the a$$.
what i heard about wesker and akuma nerfs i was like doesn't matter u still can own people with those characters and jill love the character but moveset expected something good but in some point its worthless to buy it. if u wanna buy to have it in the game go for it if u don't doesn't matter. in my opinion they could have add someone else from capcom instead of jill and shuma well... shuma is good what i just heard soo hes worth it. One last thing all of us has interest on the new characters instead of the dlc which i know everyone is all agreed with me in this point. ^_^
@34 I agree. I think people really just didn't give Jill the time she needed. I have fought a few people that are good with her and I have to say she scares me. Played a guy the other day that used her and Chris. It was a pretty nasty combo. Also she has to have some of the fastest attacks in the game. IMO underrated.
Buff Jill so more people will buy her? Why not just make her top tier so even more people will buy her if that's what they are aiming for?
Leave her with her "OP" gameplay? Yeah, it's not the last time they let a very good character cough*yun*cough slide blew up in their faces whether the nerf came later or not.
Playing against better execution heavy characters was fun at the beginning but after the novelty dies, you just feel like you're playing against a broken character. cough*viper*cough
To be fair, although I don't disagree that good execution should be rewarded, just that it shouldn't be rewarded too much. And we'll probably never know if that was the case.
Indeed what kind of half-assed logic is that ?
She should remain broken so people have an incentive to buy her ? Why even care about that to begin with ? Are you a PR and marketing rep at capcom or anywhere else ? No ? So why go that road ?
Everytime a dlc is announced , like the gems over SFxT , it's a parade of folks wondering if it will give any advantage over the regular versions , or fools complaining about that in advance ...
... and now suddenly that a "celeb" argue that there should be a gameplay advantage and incentive to generate sales , now you guys wanna agree ?
Some people need to be tested for split personalities .
This reminded me of how horrible Capcom is at balancing, (Or at least the MVC3 team) Im not even joking, I, or a 5 year old could do some of these things better. Some of these changes make little to no sense or were not needed at all.
But w/e, still hoping this game won't have to many OP/crazy characters that will also be easy as hell to play (Of course) and its somehow still good.
But this game is fun, so w/e I cant wait.
I didn't read all the comments. But to all those saying most people choose wesker because they liked him personally, well here is what I have to say. I have a group of friends. they had chosen a group of people they wanted to play before mvc3 came out. their words were "no matter how good or bad they are im gonna master them". Guess what...they used them. and their characters ended up being too difficult to use. So you know what they did? they picked up characters they talked crap about and despised. You know why? easy to use, high damage dealing, brainless BnB combo's. Now all the sudden they love them. And couple of my other friends only look for high tier or cheap characters that are easy as well. I know that doesn't speak for everyone. But I bet people who want to will will go the same route. That probably is a high percentage of casual and/or competitive players.
I use Wesker because I like him. Its no my fault he ended up being a top tier power house. I use jill myself. And its not my fault she ended up mid tier execution heavy character. Just use who you like. Their is always going to be tier whores or copiers in ANY competitive game out there. You're just going to have to live with it and do better.
Mhm, I like Dante the most, mained him since the beginning and still am. Dante is def. a good character, but Ive noticed that like 90% of the players that picked Dante in the first few weeks gave up on him, but Im the biggest fan of DMC and mained him before I saw gameplay.
Same with Vergil, idc how good or hard he is i'll play him, although I know he will be very very good lol. Same with Wesker, Dormammu, She-hulk, Doom, Taskmaster, Viper, Sentinel etc who Ill continue to keep using no matter what :D lol. (but I use 70% of the cast so <<>>>)
@#53
No offense but your friends are weak willed then . They'd probably make the same choices in any other fighting game as here will always be tiers and such .
I dont know many fighting games that are even as easy to pick up as MVC3 (aside from anime games wich ont really counts) , so i have trouble believing they found themselves with and impossible uphill struggle with any of its characters .
people who pick the strongest can if they want , but let's stop pretending , outside maybe of the realm of professional gaming , that they ought to and got no choice .
That's a flimsy and weak rationalisation
CAPCOM I do not understand!
nerf to phoenix that seems very abused its T-K spam AND traps and put into play which is now doc.strange worse than her! poryectiles in improved traps and with more life than she! making it usable.
jill with changes?? is very difficult to learn to use it and instead of adding an extra move to simplify his game put it more complicated?? is a thousand times better MVC2 jill .
enhancements doom !!!!!!! that stupid!
worry for thw phoenix spam ???hawkeye raccoon rocket and are by far the kings of spam with Chris Redfield!
she hulk nerfed to the only movement that could bring into play(down + H) to only be added to others so blatant!(HAWKEYE)
I just want according to capcom that replaced characters that we liked for the characters that Capcom likes ..... very bad!
All of that was 100% true. I notice that when you don't respond to these things in forums, you get alot more idiot posters.
It's not even that wesker is too strong, it's that he got more buffs than people who actually needed it,and some characters who needed buffs got nerfs that are worse than weskers...wtf?! I'm all for nerfs that leave a character playable, they should never nerf a characters playstyle without giving them something else...but why nerf characters that are either fine(amaterasu,trish) or characters that badly need buffs(haggar..wtf,morrigan)
If they were going to give her the phoenix nerf they should have just left trish alone. MAx voltage OTG is meh, hopscotch should otg instead.Some ammy nerfs were stupid when you look at how huge zeros buff is. Why buff doom so much when he was already about a-tier,and then give MODOK(who is the exact same type of character)only one buff when he clearly needs more?
Capcom should have followed the SSF4 model for balance instead of the horrible AE changes.
MODOK is not a bad character and does not really need any buffs. It would be a plus but not needed. Doom getting his jumping S buffed... seems a bit over the top. I thought Doom was a pretty good character before but now he is borderline scary. As far as Wesker is concerned I don't think this speed buff will be that game changing. Lets wait until the game is in our hands before we jump to conclusions.
For those of you who say she hulk doesn't have any options please watch this. At about 1 minute vs. Ghost Rider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUACJH...
She has always had plenty of options. Watch Combofiend or justin wongs or even nerd josh she-hulk. Only noobs spam down+h.
Modok could have used startup reduction time to his specials, command normals.Could have used hitbox changes so that people dont end up punishing you for comboing them. Could have used some of his many negative bugs being fixed.
Again, doom and modok are very similar in terms of character design(zoning capable characters that push opponents to the corner where they shine) so if doom was already better, why did he get more buffs?
Dooms S doesn't need hard knockdown because if you can even force an opponent to block it you already have a damn good mixup. I hate when people say "omg this may look terrible but just wait for the gae to come out". People knew how bad AE would be before it came out and lo and behold they had to take back so many of the stupid changes they put in that game.
They pretty much took away wolverines dive kick and gave it to doom. Of-course people are going to complain.
Yea....really the ONLY thing wrong with doom is that he was a little slow, but he had a ton of things going for him and the divekick change is just insanely stupid, and i play the guy.
hey guys i know u loved to say ur things but we have somethings bugging us this weekend like were is rocket raccoon and frank west and capcom lied again with the announcements that it was going to be in the last show in mcm london expo 2011 and the show is over where the heck is my announcements i want to see RR and FW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I really appreciated this article. I see very few progamers with the ambition to learn an original team. I can count on one hand the players that actually do their own homework. No one can dispute that its most exciting to see someone rape with Felicia, Spencer, Trish or Chris Redfield.
FT 10 $1000 Money Match @Choke VS @GoukiJones Live. Coming up on the stream #gouki #mvc3": http://j-tv.me/ufB6l4?k
Interesting info on Jill. I couldn't agree more, it was pointless to nerf her. Honestly how many people even bought her for DLC? Not many.