After the Ultimate Norcal vs. Capcom event two days ago, Honzogonzo and Chrisis put together some of their thoughts and impressions from the build they played.
No its more like, why can't capcom fix what they did wrong with everyone of those "bottom of the barrel" characters in the first place. Changing tiers is one thing, but its sad they haven't learned their mistakes with Hsienko and Haggar, they know they're bad but doesn't sound like they want to fix them.
Hsien-ko, poor little zombie girl, never will be good :(
Tron/Haggar, expected nerfs due to amazing assists, but not bottom tier.
Wolverine, thats quite a jump lol
Shuma, of course hes bottom tier, sigh. Now I officially cannot use any of my MvC2 teams competitively.
They fixed a lot of things about Hsien-Ko though...and Chris could blow up his grenades with gunshots in vanilla, that's nothing new.
Poor Shuma, I'm going to miss having you on my main team.
Also, WHAT'S THIS ABOUT WOLVERINE BEING BOTTOM TIER!?
First of all how in the world is Wolverine low tier when his speed and damage output is ridiculously good and how the hell do they know if Shuma is gonna be low tier if he isn't even playable yet
Add Thor to the "Bottom of the Barrel" list. I wouldn't of figured that the nerfs to Wolverine would make him bottom tier so I'm surprised about that.
Random fact; Chris could always shoot his grenades to make them explode. It just wasn't very useful/accurate, that may of been improved.
If they actually slowed Wesker's movement down, I can understand the sunglasses speed up now.
Ammy, she seems more on the nerf end of the stick, to me. =\ Not being able to block during her air-dash is really going to be annoying.
Dr. Doom's going to end up being nerfed; I just hope it isn't to the point where his vanilla version ends up being far better.
Phoenix Wright is waiting on the horizon. 8D
What they should do for Hsien-Ko:
-Make Chireitou (Ground Swords Hyper) reach farther vertically, come out faster, and reach longer in distance.
-Make her able to cancel out of Senpu-Bu (Pendulum Swing), and give it a damage buff and make it easier to combo into. (Air combo -> Senpu-Bu -> Cancel -> Spike -> Hyper, just another combo option, because she has little to work with.)
-Buff normals damage and walk/air-dash speed (Which is apparently already in place)
-Able to throw items in the air, L for Horizontal, M for slightly downward, H for almost completely downward. (Can help her be the zoner she's SUPPOSED to be)
That's all I got for right now, but these changes could make her SO much better.
lol i just think people will have to play wolverine differently. all that speed, mixup potential and accessible stun/hard knockdown stuff's still there, but it'll probably be how vanilla doom was i.e. matching up well against any character according to the player's execution.
wolverine bottom tier ?? lol , anyway the impressions from honzogonzo doesnt matter , he plays so bad , doesnt know anything besides spam the screen
I've been using Hsien-Ko since day 1 and I feel like she's pretty good with the right team. The thing is that most people doing these UMvC3 character breakdowns probably don't really know how to play Hsien-Ko so they can't really give a fair verdict on whether or not she's good in UMvC3.
You guys do remember that Dudley and Juri were unanimously agreed upon as the two best characters in SSF4 before the game actually came out right? Especially Dudley, everyone thought he was gonna be vanilla Sagat good. That clearly didn't happen. Don't put too much stock into what people say about top and bottom tier just yet until we've all had the proper amount of time to really break the game in.
• Hsien-ko, Tron Bonne, Haggar, Wolverine and Shuma are looking to be the bottom of the barrel.
Here we go with this bull again, then people show up & claim victory with these characters making the top sentence point less. I think I judge for myself if these characters are " bottom of the Barrel " like I did in MvC3, I ******* hate tier list they're nothing but crap to me.>:(
And this is what happens when people cry nerf heaven forbid haggar had a good assist and that's it now he's useless wolverine is bought garbage I didn't even use him but wolverine has to be a bad*** buffs are the only things that characters should ever have so thank all that complained same difference nothing was fixed this character is better than that one people don't accomplish anything by whining about nerfs some will be better than others for eternity if people want a fair fight do a god Da** mirrior match and you can be on equal terms if not just shut up and play
@16
Couldn't have put it better myself. These are just the thoughts of two guys, not even a large group of people.
...and they didn't even realize Chris could shoot his grenades in MvC3.
@#1
Cause no fighting game can do that ever.
As long as there are many different movesets/playstyles, one will counter others and buffing/nerfing to overcome it, it will change other match-ups.
Then, when you have so many characters (like over 15), some of the movesets just will not work that well with the game engine (or some just work better).I can understand the frustration, but when you try to add diverse characters, it is inevitable some will just fare worse.I can understand wanting to make tiers having smaller gaps, but it's just hard. 50 characters facing against each other and adding Assist synergy on top of that... It's impossible.
You either have a small cast that works well with the engine and have decent match-ups against each other, or a large diverse roster, with many usable in mid level play(not tournaments).
Just something to consider for Fighters in general, not just Capcom ones.
I was gonna mention the Chris-Grenade-shooting thing, but I got beaten to it...
As for the "Viper Beam", the only thing I could think of is using it along with ground pounds and a meter building assist to keepaway and build as much meter as she needs, though it'd probably be more viable to use a proper keepaway character instead, then tag her in.
Why couldn't she have a divekick like her Burning Dance ultra in SF as a new move? It'd probably be much more useful...
Damn shame to see the mayor lose his only valuable asset. They could've at least made him A LOT better by himself since any time he is left alone as an anchor, the odds of making anything happen are slim to none.
And ffs just buff Shuma. There's no "hidden talent" that people have yet to discover; he just needs to be made better, and Capcom needs to stop being lazy and stop hoping the players will make a Magneto out of a low tier like Shuma.
@20, because he's going to be over-used, people will complain about him, thus the nerf hammer will find it's way into Castle Doomstadt.
Seriously though, kinda sucks for day 1 Doom users, but meh, that's Capcom for ya. No matter how badly my characters get nerfed, I know them too well to drop them.
And yeah, the people above are right. Take the "bottom tier" thing with a grain of salt, at this point it's pretty impossible to tell who's going to be less viable. A little over a month left and we'll see.
Random question, Magneto's pull move, does that have slow recovery? Because I remember watching a vid where someone used it to pull towards and it was punished pretty badly; or maybe they weren't blocking, dunno.
Cant wait till someone enters a tourney showing V.joe's full potential making him look so much like a beast just as how J.wong did with She-Hulk. Then Im gonna see all the little Tier-whores hop onto him. *sigh* if that happens I will lose more faith in the fighting game community.
The Wolverine "bottom of the barrel" comment is not a big deal, guys. They almost surely meant that he was bottom of the barrel in terms of overall buffs. Wolvie got nerfed in speed, XF benefits, lost some invul of berserker slash and mashing with SWISS CHEESE. None of those nerfs make for a terrible character like the bottom five(Hsien, Shuma, Haggar, Arthur and possibly Tron).
Stop worrying about solid mid/high Wolverine and focus on the bad characters so Capcom can fix it's forgotten characters already!
#31 its okay to go for a stronger character but im really talking about those ez mode strong characters like wesker...I acutally liked him when he was revealed even though I act as though I dislike him but its just when I saw his gameplay and overall health I was like...this character is just way 2 ez to use and be effective I think the hp nerf was okay because if Nemesis can have high hp and little options and wesker can get 1,100,000 with options and ez mode teleports then its like....really?
I got my eye on Firebrand. I see great things for that Red Arremer. Also, it's pretty much official that Nemesis is the new Sentinel, complete with the 1.3 million health every Sentinel player misses.
D'aaawwww. Poor Hsien-ko. I'm sure she'll get a boost eventually, even if it's after release.
I'm sure people will figure out new things, regardless.
@35 uh yeah wolverine will be garbage u cant mash his normals anymore baserker slash isnt invinsable anymore dive kick doesnt ground bounce if it hits in the air hes gonna have trouble getting close to people. wolverine is a beginner character the takes no skill to really use :)
woot for Doom buffs! Hopefully Zero is at least the same, if not better, tier-wise.
Wondering how Vergil will fare tier wise...
@ 32
Well a perfect game has many types of characters and beginners should have the option to pick easy to use characters such as Ryu, Ragna, Ryo, Wolverine, Wesker, these are all the most simple to use characters in their respective games. These characters are rewarding for the beginner players, and are usually designed for mid to high-mid tier in mind. Or in better words they are designed to be effective in competitive play thanks to their all-around strengths, but can be out-shined in certain areas, like keep away or rushdown dedicated characters. They can also be outpassed by the more complex characters that take more time and dedication to get used to.
This is the overall balance that fighting games should go for. However this doesn't always go as planned; forgivably so, due to how complex fighting game balance can be. However in MvC3's case, Nitsuma seems to blatantly make the EZ characters much more powerful than the rest of the cast. Wesker has much more tools than 95% of the cast, and out-shines the complex characters with similar tools. Wolverine is basic rushdown, yet he exceeds at it more than Viper or Jill does, who are clearly much more complex and time-consuming to learn
@#32
There is no real balance if the strong characters are easy or hard to use, good players will use most of them well regardless.
No matter how 'easy' they are, people flooding on a strong character because they cannot do well otherwise will just not be that good, so who cares
Man, sucks to hear about Tron. They took away the only thing she had going for her and didn't do anything to make up for it.
Drills are better, though. So now instead of spamming jumping H, gonna have to spam drills. Grand.
Hopefully she doesn't drop too low. She was already low/mid
I call BS, Hsien got more better upgrades that make her faster and better,Tron is now much better at keeping the opponents far or close especially with more recover time and 3 servbot launchers in a row, and Haggar is just a freakin beast when attacking, even more beast since Cr. H OTG's.
I bet you they didnt even used them and just judged by spamming their damn assists, and because Haggar and Tron has more counter time in their assists, they just threw them off and said their "Bottom of the Barrel" without actually using them.
With overall projectile game getting better counts as a nerf to wolverine as-well. People with fast teleports oroboros like moves and normals that reach across the screen its going to be tough for melee characters. Either your going to have to find some really good assist and build your team around them to help get in or you have to wait till the opponent makes a mistake and counter them.
Personally when I read the nerfs on wolverine I already started practicing new characters. Wolverine was my main from day 1 but I refuse to struggle in a game where its only fun if your winning. Mvc2 got my a$$ kicked everytime using wolverine.
Fire brand looks like the new wolverine. Doom has wolverines dive kick plus better throws and projectiles. I seriously just thinking about doing a zoning team like Honzo Gonzo and ride that to finals. Deadpool, hawkeye, Doom.
about Hsien-ko: would a 1 hit ko Super make her better? She got so much buffs and is still at the bottom, what a waste of a Darkstaker Character, maybe Jedah would of been better.
Seriously though Haggar is too strong, the fact that his Cr. H OTG's makes his current combo bigger to more combos and continuations that can possibly kill a character with more below average health.
@44
Thats true, except Firebrand is stubby, more like a combination of viewtiful joe and Wolverine considering his low attack range and projectiles but excellent air combos.
@33
Its possible that overall buffs is what they mean and not just that their low tier. They are probably not even done evaluating everything.
Its 2 guys who didnt know Chris's grenades could already happen in Vanilla, we cant really rely just of these guys, just wait till New york CC then we'll see it from professionals.
@49
Your pretty assuming, yet moronic. The sentence said nothing about only Wolverine getting less buffs and others garbage, your the one pulling sh*t from your a*s.
Hsien is Less floaty, making her faster and she can cancel into certain moves much easier and faster recover on some moves. And she got more things she can throw.
As for Haggar and Tron, you ever heard of Haggars Pipe and Trons Drill?
Jill and Shuma werent available on any build because their DLC, it makes you wonder if their getting any buffs, or if its even possible.
@33
Nemesis doesn't look like the new Sentinel. We've seen lots of people use him in videos, and he almost never does anything impressive. Meanwhile, Sentinel was linking together all his hyper moves on day one.
I respect Honzogonzo and Chrisis and their opinions, but you guys have to remember that these are pre-release impressions.
That comes to show you know one uses chris that much cuz he can shoot his grenades with his guns in the original mvc3
(HRMWERFNOANENOANEF
WHY ARE HSIEN, HAGGAR, SHUMA BOTTOM TIER!
CAPCOM!
I want to ENJOY
UMVC3!
Please. Don't be true.
.....or at least buff Arthur so much that I don't need other chars kekekekek)
@9 Thor will destroy you. Bottom of the barrel my ass. Just because you don't know how to use him doesn't mean he's bottom tier. I have a 70% win percentage with Thor thank you very much and he's getting buffed slightly.
p.s I don't play phoenix either. Team Avengers baby.
Dang the Hammer nerf to Dante kinda makes me wanna drop him.
S'ok though cuz now my Chris game will be much nastier. THIS MISSION'S OVER!
After watching some honzo gameplay vids, I cant take his impressions seriously at all. Sit back and spam projectiles, fail to hit confirm, and random supers all day long.
I'll wait for some real impressions from real players.
I believe the reason they think doom's level 3's damage was nerfed is because it is now mashable, so they were not getting the total damage of the move in UMVC3.
Taskmaster nerfs wasn't even necessary, he's not even that cheap.
Now I have to "mash" to get extra damage without accidentally activating Air X-Factor. Thanks alot.
And harder to do combos? Really? Has to be a joke.
And I thought Shuma and Jill were not playable, whats this BS?
Yay they made Dante worse..Yay cause of how smart CC balances things the so far strongest UMVC3 new fighter (People say Ghost rider) is not only..well the strongest or one of the strongest new cast members..but..ALSO EASY TO PLAY!!!
Great thanks CC, it makes sense that the strongest characters are the easiest to pick up and play.... :) /end rant.
''• Hsien-ko, Tron Bonne, Haggar, Wolverine and Shuma are looking to be the bottom of the barrel.''
Wolverine? Really? He lost some invincibility on his Berserker right and that makes him low tier? o-o Tron/Hagger, deserved, dumb assists <3 lol. Doom top 3..interesting..Not only the best or one of the best assist chars, but insanely good on point, he's gonna be scary.
Altho I really don't want everyone to have him on their teams ;/
@70
A character that can almost get a full combo off of every random hit confirm he gets deserves to get toned down a bit.
Don't worry, he's still going to be viable, he just requires more effort to win.
Instead of, y'know, NONE.
(Yes, I'm calling Tasky a no-effort character, you know it to be true.)
@57 maybe your right about character loyalty, but character loyalty don't mean jack sh!t when it comes to tournament /competitive play. No-one remembers the name of the guy who used super skrull at evo. Take someone who mains Hsien-ko,felicia,viewtiful joe and give them wolverine, sentinel, akuma and I bet there win rate will go up dramatically.
Skill and character loyalty aren't synonymous. As much as i hate to admit it Tier list are real and all the champions confirm them. Look at all the wolverine, wesker, Phoenix champions from previous tournaments. I'll play with favorites in casual play i.e with friends, but not of competitive play.
@76
Problem with that is that tier lists aren't permanent. There was a time in MvC2 when people thought Spiral was top tier, then people discovered new technology with other characters and suddenly she's hardly used anymore.
Also, using lesser known characters can help in tournaments occasionally, because if you're in a tournament and you suddenly run into a really really good felicia or viewtiful joe team, you can easily lose simply because you don't understand how to fight felicia or viewtiful joe properly since hardly anybody plays them. All it takes is that once piece of new technology to be developed in the lab one day and suddenly a character can shoot up the tier list.
@71 seth said theres minor change but nothing ruin or buffing her gain he said jill mad beast has unknown elements that know one knows about and he also said that jill is really good as people don't claim she is. he also mention that he is surprize that know uses her in touney's being that that shes a tech head and is very fast
this article means nothing, honzo gonzo is a horrible mvc player that thinks he is good because he only knows how to spam spam spam, and lame you out, as soon as he gets a lucky hit he xfactor to kill you, he is one of the biggest scrubs that is trying to "be a pro" i have ever seen, all i ever hear about this dude is in stream chats talking crap and getting blown up on streams. imo hes not worth listening to about anything because he doesn't know anything
@71 he said jill got buff on her frame data and more hit detections on her normals and she could mash machine gun hyper for more bullets penetration. Shuma has a grab move where he could suck health from you I think
@Chun Li
There is no such thing a random or luck. Random and luck favor those ready for it. You can't win with Taskmaster by being random, that gets you killed eventually. If your winning with Tasky because of random hit confirms, then your opponent just sucks.
Taskmaster is a great example of a strong easy to use character with significant flaws. It's hard to find that in other characters that are above him. Nerfing him like they did will just force the pros to switch to other characters like Hawkeye or something making him irrelivant.
@82
dude thats cold man, talk about disrespect. gonzo is trying set this info out and your on his nuts hard body bro.
@78 you have great points. All I'm saying is many have tried and most have fallen. Lets just be honest great players like Diago and Justin Wong have both always used top tier characters and are known arguably as the best. Street fighter 3rd strike, Ken, chunli. Street fighter 4 Ryu, Yun. Mvc2 Storm Sent Capcom/cyc. MVC3 Wolverine.
Watch someone like floe play and you will see what I mean. The characters he picks is always Top tier in every fighting game. He will change characters frequently as they become top tier. Check out Combo Fiend when he was picking his characters for mvc3 he saw that she hulk looked broken with her grabs stunning you ect... It's just the way it is.
#82 I have to agree with #85 that's a bit dirty. Playing lame is a technique and fighting style. Not everyone has execution skills or prefer to fight close range. Although spamming is annoying and boring he used his characters to their strengths and exploited peoples weakness.
I played him and he beat me 10-9 and I didn't know he played that lame. I used x-23, modok, wesker, but I didn't complain. I just gave him his respect because his tactic worked. He has a lot of knowledge on mvc3. Not only his characters but other peoples as-well. At least he is giving us info on a game not everyone has played yet. good or bad
Seriously.. I don't mind Trons assist nerf... but nerfing jH? I understand that her zoning capabilities have been improved but, How do you get in now? Spam drills? If they increase the drill speed so it's not crazy easy to block, then it makes sense. I hope she's not as bad as she's perceived to be.. I didn't think she was low tier in Vanilla, but I don't think she was good enough to deserve nerfs aside from her assist..
Well I think I'll just have to wait till I get my hands on the game, to really know.
Also, I find it hard to believe that Wolverine is low tier now, but who knows. I think it's too early to basically make a tier list for a game that's not even out yet.
@xShonuffx
You said it right that he's a good character with significant flaws, but his Pros are really good as is.
Above average health, insane reach on normals, arrow shots control the screen fairly well, physical-counter hyper. As a character, by design, he's supposed to be a Jack-of-all-Trades.
Thing with vanilla, he was TOO good, look at the stuff he was able to do by himself, and being able to self-OTG with arrows, into another combo that ends in his insane damaging Legion Arrow Hyper? He did way too much damage by himself, and I'm glad he got new tricks as well as nerfs.
My guess is that they're trying to weed out the real Tasky players aside from the bandwagon, much like what they're doing to Phoenix.
Don't wanna play Phoenix because of her nerfs? Play Dr.Strange.
Don't wanna play Tasky because of nerfs? Play Hawkeye or Captain America.
Dedicated Tasky players will keep on playing him, and real Phoenix players will still use her. If you don't wanna play him anymore because he's not so much of an easy win, that's okay, but he's still a viable character.
tron/hagger assists were 2 of the lamest (if not the lamest) assists in the game that def needed nerfing.if I bait the assist so I can hit it with a hyper of some sort like a beam there is no reason why hagger should be able to complete his spin b4 getting hit.viscant won evo mostly in part to haggers lame ass assist (and phoenix too but still).
wolverine & wesker were both braindead easy to use especially wesker who can get a free air combo just from landing a random gunshot on a jumping opponent. then there's wolverines dive kick hitting even if ur ABOVE HIM!!they both def needed nerfing.now ppl wanna say wolvies ass tier cuz u gotta actually use ur brain? lolz
Heh, well I would certainly argue with calling Justin Wong the best. In my opinion Combofiend is better in Marvel 3, but that's obviously just opinion. In any case, Combofiend is a good example of what I was talking about. Not many people picked She-Hulk up that early and nobody really thought she was good until he started using her. And I'd say even to this day, he has a little bit of an advantage with She-Hulk just because most people still aren't exactly sure how she works or how to defend against her attacks.
Justin Wong was using Felicia the other night on Wednesday night fights and busted out a bit of new technology involving a Doom or Akuma assist and her cat dash crossing you up something nasty in the corner, and he won 2 games with it, I would say, largely because nobody has a clue how to fight Felicia.
@92 lmao he was using felicia the same way he did wolverine. Berserker slash plus Akuma/doom assist. That was not new technology. It works with captain america or x-23 too.
I'll give you spencer with combo fiend, but she hulk was obviously good with the throw stun.
Combo fiend is up there with the best but he loses more often than Justin. I still think Justin is better even when I seen combo fiend beat him at final round. All in my opinion tho.
@Wolfeyes187 It's different in that when Felicia does it, she appears to be in front of you, when in fact the game registers her as behind you. That doesn't happen with the other characters you mentioned.
anyone who thinks fgs should be balanced only thru buffs to low tier only are retards.no buffs given to the low tiers will change the brokeness of the tops will it?the whole concept of balance is give and take.u can't give something w/o 1st taking something away.the buffs to lei lei,felicia and morrigan for instance don't mean jack if she's put up against vanilla wolverine,wesker and akuma.they'll still get bodied.nerfs are necessary to balance fgs properly.
LMAO at "How come they just can't make every character viable?"
You guys are so naive if you think it's possible to complete balance a game.
No fighting game has ever been balanced. The only way would be to create a game where every character is RYU.
@97 they did that, its called street fighter, and the minute they added chars that weren't ryu or had more options the entire balance was destroyed. lol.
The most balanced fighting game in my mind is prolly tekken and even that has its own bottom of the barrel.
=D
I mean, I'm not asking for much. Just a few Hsien-Ko boosts. Not like it's that hard to pick out...
Maybe a slight toning down here and there for Doomer and Wolvie (I mean, let's be serious. Homegirl is a little too strong and that divekick--enough already).
I know Tron lost her invincibility with the Gustaff Fire---but she was still a combo machine. Sure, you can't start off the combo with her Air H (wooaooaoaooh) but the Jumping S isn't that bad.
I don't care for Haggar.
Why is it that they think we have to look for some "secret techniques" in some characters, but for others, it's outright ostentatious? I mean, ONE smack from Taskmaster or Wolvie or Dante and POOF---combo city. I smack you once with Hsien-Ko and I PRAY I get you with my second attack. Of course I find my way to deal with them, but it could be a tad easier, Capcommie.
@100 if they gave a jill a gun special than she would be broken. people don't but she is really good character and not bad as retarded people might think. She has lots of potential to be up with the top contenders but people havent figure her out yet. jill game is highly base on rush and mix up not only that your execution has to be par
Most balanced game was super ssf4 but most people were crying like mad because they sucked at fighting games.
Capcom wants to set doom up for a nerf for some reason, he barely needed changes as is but they gave him the level of buffs MODOK should have had.It's gonna be sad, just started playing this guy cos he's so awesome with modok.
Wolverine sucking doesnt surprise me. Can already manhandle him with trish simply because he sucks in the air. Useless against anyone who can do anything in the air or from distance now...lol.
Hsienko sucking doesnt surprise me. They don't know what distance they want her to fight at so what else could happen? Let some of haggars normals clear projectiles, buff crouching H startup to 10 frames. Allow ghetto copter in the air that slows him down and causes spinning knockdown.
Gives tron back her jumping H. Reduce damage of almost every character....we have a game.
@103
No, people whined because charge characters were incredibly strong. Remember "Super Down-Back Fighter IV?" That's what they called the game. The game favored a more defensive playstyle, and a lot of people didn't like that.
Then came AE, a game that forced rushdown to be the dominant playstyle, and people didn't like that either, mainly because they didn't like the charcters that were top tier.
Point is, Capcom is never going to please everyone and I think they should stop trying, lest we want 80 versions of the same game.
Hsien-ko, Tron Bonne, Haggar, Wolverine and Shuma are looking to be the bottom of the barrel.
*sigh*, why can't they make every character viable and powerful?