Submitted by SimSimIV.
See how alioune needs to spend almost all his entire super bar on EX cannon strikes? and on the first vid at 2:30 due to height restriction he cant even combo the cannon strike and c.Lp? she needs EX to do the pressure all other dive kick characters do, thats why you see almost no cammy players now. but still gg alioune
@4: But having an overhead that doesn't require meter would make her worse than Yun and Vanilla Sagat and she's still really good even though no one uses her and tier lists are for the weak, level up your game and stuff...
I'm no fan of this but I like this. I also want Sonic Generations.
Alioune Sensei showing to all you scrubs why Cammy is still in the A-tier...
With the nerf to the twins, expect more Cammy players in the upcoming patch.
lol at people saying this proves Cammy is really good in AE, he's playing against Kindevu's MAKOTO, when anyone ever saw him playing that char? He sure is a great player, but his Makoto suck, and Makoto already suck against pressure characters, so bad match up and being bad with the character certainly helps Alioune here a little, what you guys need to do is ask 'what would happen if Kindevu were using one of his best chars?', but no, going even or a little better than that against Kindevu's Makoto equals godlike, right? Some people are just clueless.
@ 14 - konachin
What are you, some kind of moron? Kindevu's Makoto did not suck in the slightest, you moron. Why don't you ask the man Alioune himself. After all, he's played Vryu, I'm sure he'd be able to tell you if Kindevu's Makoto sucked.
Having watched the matches I was suprised how good Kindevu was with Makoto, as I've never seen him play her before.
Suck... hehe... what a moron.
@#14
How can you say Kindevu's makoto suck from watching these vids? Are you a blind moron? Kindevu clearly plays a really good Makoto and he knows her mix ups really well.
@14
how exactly do you expect a "good" makoto to play? He obviously has a great Makoto. Kindevu in genenral is known for being able to play several characters at a very high level. If you can't see that both players are playing very well, I honestly don't think you understand what you are watching.
Alioune's Cammy didnt have tkcs w/o meter, but at the same time, he almost always had meter because of cammy's crazy frame traps and blockstrings, and alioune is great at playing aggressively enough to be building it constantly. Main problem is that she has terrible grab range, so people can usually fight her by just blocking on her approach and getting in a good range. Alioune just has great footsies and gets in fast.
His Makoto is not good at all, he has no good setups, keeps on offense blindly, and didnt even know what to do when he was being pressured, any good makoto would at least know to crouch tech with LP+LK+MK so he has a chance of beating the ex dives, but all he was doing under pressure was backdash, what saves him from being rap*d here is that he's a very smart player in general and obviously ex karakusa into ultra, if it was not by that he probably wouldn't even get 2 games. If you think this is a good Makoto you probably think the only options with her on offense are axe kick, MP and ex karakusa, but I guess people here gives justice to be called eventscrubs, if they see a famous name, its amazing by default LOL.
Your only valid argument was that he couldn't handled being pressured. But once cammy puts on the pressure, it is very hard to get breathing room. There was NO way in the world that he would be able to be Alioune's ex dives with that option select. He was doing those dives when he was already at frame advantage. You make it sound like he was just doing a normal jump-in into dive. Let alone, he really has no reason to crouch tech option select against cammy. Cammy has crap grab range, and cammy's frame traps will kill you. It's not even worth it to bother crouch teching. Back dash was usually the safer option because being up close blocking her normals gets you no where.
No one said Kindevu is Godlike with Makoto, but he obviously was skilled with her. I think you are underestimating both Cammy's pressure game and Alioune.
if you didn't get the point of the option select then i don't even know what to say to you, and your example of a jump in ex dive is even worse, in a jump in he has no reason at all to use os, but when being mixed up with throws e ex dives it sure is viable, he can be frame trapped, obviously, but it gives him more chance to get away then trying to stand grab or back dash since her backdash is perfect for getting hit by ex dives, as you can see in the videos. like i said before, kindevu is smart and had this karakusa into ultra which is even more ridiculous than ex seismo into ultra, but his mixups with her are not good and didnt know what to do besides backdash when being pressured, if this is what makes a good makoto player, then i have nothing more to say.
Makoto, hardest working girl in SF.
I swear, watch gameplay of her at high level, she spends more time blocking than any non-charge based character. How often you see her do ANYTHING on wakeup besides backdash/block or focus backdash? Maybe 1 out of every 30-40knockdowns you see a wakeup reversal attempt.
@#22
Makoto is a character that has bad defence games, specifically against characters like cammy who is a very good rush down character, your statement of saying karakusa into ultra is more rediculous than ex seismo into ultra just showed how bad of a player you are, 1st iff my question is do you think its easy to land a karakusa ( or more in the sense of dash karakusa) in high level play? 2nd do you think its easy to get punished if it misses? Now compare the situation to ex seismo? Im pretty you have the anwser.
@22 i used that ridiculous example because thats about the only situation i would see it viable to even do what you are talking about. He wasn't being mixed up with throws. That's my point. The main rule with Cammy, or any frame trap character, is not to option select crouch tech. You will get blown up. Against Cammy, it makes even less sense because she has bad throw range. James Chen always mentions on stream that all you have to do to deal with cammy is just realize it's best to do nothing and not hit buttons, and he is right. It wouldn't even make sense for Cammy to bother with throws because after almost any blocked attack, she has to walk up a bit to throw, leaving her vulnerable to karakusa. That's how bad her throw range is. It's honestly not something you probably even notice unless you play Cammy. She has one of the worst throw ranges in the game.
Thing i'm trying to point out is that once cammy starts the pressure game, Makoto can do absolutely nothing until she escapes (backdash being an option), and approaches cammy and starts pressure on her own terms. Kindevu pretty much never had a chance to really start anything because Alioune was in there constantly.
Oh, and please, next time you play a good Cammy, try antiairing with something like makoto's mk like you were saying and see where it gets you. You better have amazing fast reactions because Cammy's jab has crazy frameadvantage, and her ex tkcs starts fast. It's not worth the risk to try to beat it with a normal in that situation because if you lose, you will eat probably over 300 damage mininum, and if cammy has ultra, she can link into it easily off of just a normal ex tkcs, let alone one that scores counter hit.
Yea let's go for an O/S crouch tech against someone who is clearly fishing for counterhits using frame traps.
That's smart.
Kindevu himself placed Makoto alongside Cammy at A+ on his AE tier list (search EH archives if u want). As a multi-character master I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about, and since he put both of them in A+ I'm willing to bet he's decent (or gdlk, compared to the average player) with both.
if you think its hard to land ex karakusa then you don't watch anything, and yes, in the very highest level, go watch haitani vs sako ft10 then come back here and tell me how many rounds haitani won because of that. if you see that and say its not at least the same level of bullsh*t than ex seismo then you're probably sf4, mvc3 generation. and ex seismo is punished very bad by jump straight.
@26 dude, im not saying the os is going to solve all your problems, but anyone that plays against dive kick chars know its a viable option and it helps sometimes, like i said before, he can be frame trapped, but then he can be frame trapped by any char, not only by dive chars, so, by your logic no one should be crouch teching against anyone, the example i gave for makoto is very common, any character that has a good crouch normal against airborne can use that, it will save you some time and it will f*ck you some time, yeah, but it wont be worse than backdashing and whiff grab everytime.
and i play cammy, i know her throw range is horrible, but it still works if the opponent just do nothing like you said. and sorry, james chen dont what he is talking about half of time, its even bad to give him as an example, he was bad even with super cammy.
@28
First off, I'm going to say that in case you didn't know, Kindevu also plays a great Cammy. There is a reason he was respecting Alioune's so much because he knows Cammy's tools.
Second, I dont know why you keep bringing up Ex Karakusa. And first you were bringing up that he should o/s crouch tech. Serious question, do you know what frame advantage is? If you o/s crouch tech a frame trapper, you are doing exactly what they want you to do. Kindevu was nearly always at disadvantage. Did you notice those meaty spiral arrows on Kindevu's wakeup? Spiral arrows done that way put you at an advantage. The only reason I can assume you keep talking about ex karakusa is if you think Kindevu should just mash them out during strings hoping to catch an opening, which is a scrubby tactic that's really just gambling. Most pros would play it safe and just wait out the pressure.
And haitani winning from something related to karakusa is not something special. Every makoto is going to win in some way related to karakusa. Whether its actually snagging someone with one, or tagging someone with an attack that's trying to escape because they fear karakusa, it's always involved. It's an integral part of her mixup. Saying someone wins with it is irrelevant and hardly at all makes it anywhere near the same utility as EX seismo pre 2012
anou karakusa was not even to you, its for the guy who says its hard to land it.
and man, are you serious with that? i already said a lot of time, sure you can get a counter hit for using crouch tech os, but i said its an option and it works if its a throw or a dive coming, it wont work against the frame trap, thats obvious smart *ss, the thing is, if you keep backdashing and whiff grabbing its the worst way against dive kick chars, and if you think that os is useless you must think a lot of other high level player are dumb, and kindevu did crouch tech sometimes in theses matches, but he was just doing it with LP+LK and getting f*cked by ex dive, i guess you didnt saw that, right?
@29
Doesn't matter if James Chen is wrong alot in your eyes, he was right in that statement, and I only mentioned him because he mentions it almost every stream he is on at some point lol so i figured i would bring him up.
Yes, you can be frametrapped by anyone, but most people don't just rely on those because they have other tools. All cammy has is footsies and frametraps, and her frametraps are MUCH more deadly than most other characters. Cody is another one, but he has other tools to rely on too.
The reason it doesn't make sense to bother with crouch tech with Cammy in particular because many cammy's wont take as many throw opportunities because of her bad range. Only on occasion to mix it up. And it's much better to eat a weak throw than the 200-250 or more damage from a basic frame trap, and over 300 if it's done with ex dive.
Yes, it's a viable strat against most dive kick characters. Not cammy. You just can't use a one-size-fits-all strategy against one tactic without regard to their other tools.
I'm not trying to make Cammy sound unbeatable or something, but you are saying Kindevu should have been doing options that would have played right into Cammy's hands. Your strategy would not even have worked against Cammy in Super, but in AE it's even worse with all of her normals being buffed.
@32 yeah, lets just eat those throw just because she has bad throw range lol, as if she didn't get crazy ambiguous dive kick after a back throw that even the guy doing cant say if it hits front or back, right? lets just hear james chen, do nothing and eat those throws :) i guess thats is why he's an amazing cammy player, he knows what he's talking about.
no one who plays cammy wil go only for frame traps all the time, thats what im saying, if you have good yomi and think the guy is gonna throw or dive kick you will have the option, if you got frame trapped, yeah, it happens, you have to use the options that will help you and make the other guy think before he goes on the ex dive rampage, if you think it doesnt help, whatever, i know it does, and a lot of players know and use it.
@#28
How can you say its the same level as ex seismo? And everything can be punished with jump straight? example hadokens with a well timed jump? the point is to not use it in the most obvious situations? The point Im saying is if you think ex seimo can be punished more easily than a wiffed karakusa is totally rediculous, your example of using Hitani (best makoto player in the world?) vs Sakono doesnt prove anything, it just showed what a top level player like Hitani can do with Makoto vs Cammy who just happend to be a close fighter as well (easier with karakusa landing anyway), btw who arent aware of Makoto when she has ultra and at health disdvantage? It requires players good read just like any other command grabs, whereareas ex seismo can be used as a wakeup option and can be canceled and very difficult to punish (safe on block). Even some top japanese players regarded ex seismo as the best ex moves, you simply can not compare the two.
lol sako didn't even play cammy anymore, this matches were makoto vs ibuki, if you didn't even watch then i wont argue with you, go watch.
and i didn't say ex seismo is easier to punish than ex karakusa, i just said it is punishable if you expect, just as ex karakusa, if you didn't expect then at least you still block sometimes, but against makoto you have to jump to escape.
I'm not saying Cammy's would only do frame traps, they have good footsies too outside of just strings. I'm just saying it's not worth it to chance it all to tech a throw, when in reality, you can tech a throw when you see it coming...you know, the way it's actually meant to happen lol. If you ate three throws in a row (highly unlikely), it would maybe equal one exdive kick combo. You gotta remember they can link ultra from it.
You make it sound like as if im completely against teching a throw. I've said this whole time that o/s crouch tech wouldn't be wise, and so have other posters. It's not like you can't tech on reaction to her walk up throw. It's not easy, but it's safe to try that than the o/s route.
Let alone, like i said before, trying consistently beating an ex tkcs with a normal in that situation. You got me distracted from me focusing on that with your other arguments.
"a lot of players know and use it"...please point me to some videos of people using that tactic against cammy. Pretty sure you will find most people being pressured up close by cammy just turtling until they get pushed far enough away to regroup or they find a point to backdash, maybe jump, or focus if they are real ballsy, but they could eat a spiral. THAT is the situation for most characters.
lol tech on reaction to her walk up throw, you must be joking, any half assed cammy player can use that walk up to fake a throw and do ex dive, that was funny, teching a throw against a dive kick char on reaction, that's why some people even came out with this kind of os for dive kicks, i didn't invent that sh*t, its the best way to deal with this specific mixup if you think its coming, sure you can't abuse it, you will just diversify your ways out, its just as useful as backdash, focus backdash or even jab sometimes if your char have a good one, all this options can be punished hard if the other expect, but you can use all of them and others, you just can't be too obvious.
and about the throw, its not about the throw damage, i already said, if you get back thrown by cammy, half the time you will eat the mixup after, its one of the worst positions to be against a good cammy, so no, its not better to just give throws free, if it were just the throw then i would agree.
well, go look some replays with inputs and you will see people using it, i know that its used, its enough for me, if you think its bs, like i said before, whatever, but im not going to search stuff for you
Oh Lord...yes man, I agree with like half of what you are saying. Yes, believe it or not, you can tech on reaction, and like i said, many times you will give up a throw, and yes, she does have ambiguous mixups on wakeup. Both of those are more desireable than eating a counter hit, because you will get knocked down from a counter hit for more damage, and she has pressure setups on wake up from even a techable spiral arrow. All i was saying is that Cammy players dont rely on tick throws as much as you think, though yes its good to use occasionally. Heck, just look at those vids above. What do you see Alioune doing? Strings and strings until he gets a counter hit, meaty on wakeup, repeat.
I'm just going to agree to disagree at this point. I'm sure you will find some replays of people doing that, but you wont see many top players doing it like how you originally described it. You cannot compare cammy's dive kick pressure to rufus and the twins. The application for them is different, mainly due to ex tkcs which is the main issue. Yes, your tactic would work wonderfully against those characters and it's the best way to deal with it. Cammy with meter will deal with it without issue.
Anyway, fun playing theory fighter lol. Getting late. Happy holidays to all
after the 'you can tech on reaction' i didn't read anymore, so whatever again. funny how people have 7 frames to tech a throw after connected but still gets hit by 2 or 3 times slower overheads and even gets hit by jump ins sometimes when they don't even need to press buttons. but it would be cool, half of akuma's game going away cause people can tech all his throws. =D
@#35
I know Sako used Cammy before but switched to ibuki, since the content of this video is about Makoto vs Cammy, I just used it as an example, please dont act like you are the only one who keeps updated info on japanese high level players, you compared karakusa to ex seismo in the same rediculous level anyway, all moves can be punished if expected right? And no against ex karakusa, the only option is to jump? Dont you know you can backdash? Also karakusa need to have very specific distance thats why most people kara it or dash karakusa, which can be countered by normals whiffs?
btw its funny how you compare karakusa and ex seismo then saying, you can just block ex seismo knowing that karakusa is a command grab.
so you just agreed with me and proved yourself wrong? by saying duh to my reasoning? nicely done
@ konachin - Are you a Makoto player yourself, or do you regularly play someone who uses her?
The funny thing is, you always get muppets who talk a good game, but the only thing that matters to me is results. Not results with regards to PP in an online game where each connection is different, but in an offline environment. Link some video's of you destroying the opposition with your tournament worthy Makoto, or any other character for that matter. Show me that and I'll listen to you. Until then, shut the hell up.
@39
Okay I'm just going to assume now that you don't think people can tech throws on reaction, and everybody only uses option selects to do that. Of course people may miss the tech, or get hit by an overhead, or a jump-in. It's called getting mixed up.
We are talking about two different things now. When i'm describing how people need to deal with Cammy, the mindset behind it hinges behind cutting your losses. Agsinst Cammy (or any one doing a heavy amount of frame traps), you simply are not going to be mashing out the o/s crouch tech. The opportunity cost is that you are more likely to eat a throw because you need to do it on reaction. People are willing to risk that because they rather eat a throw than one of her hard hitting counter hits. This is different on a matchup basis.
And when I say "tech a walkup throw", I'm talking about reacting to a tick throw scenario, and you do have to walk up just a bit for a tick throw even off just a jab since her range is bad. You see people tech ticks on reaction all the time (though tougher to do online) and they arent just mashing o/s, it doesnt matter if the tick thrower is cammy, balrog, sagat, etc. It's not as hard as you make it out to be. Throws are powerful in this game, but cammy got screwed out of a normal range. If she had a good one, she would be a deadlier adversary.
And yea, a guy like akuma is deadly because people like Tokido have a dangerous vortex of options, and he also uses a lot of frame traps, make the opponent afraid to o/s tech. You make it sound like that technique is something that should always be used, when it is actually situational.
it took alioune to remind people that cammy is still in this game. btw less than 2 weeks for the AE:2012 patch hit the arcades and still no final list of changes published. Unless cammy gets some significant buff she will still be screwed in 2012.
Despite the fact that some people still say that cammy is A tier, she completely disappeared from all major tournaments and she someone tryied to use her they got bodied. Kindevu was the only player i saw using her but even so he used her on the very beggining of canadacup then wuickly switched to viper or else he wouldnt stand a chance.
Most characters she has bad match ups against are getting more significant buffs than her in 2012. I just hope the character i play and will keep playing get back to being a nice viable option for pro players so i can see people using her and discovering new technologies.
peace.
@45 no, i don't play makoto, i play cammy, but i watch all the good makoto players and i can say kindevu's makoto is not good, just looks decent because he's smart, but put him to play this makoto against a top level japanese and you will see what happens.
@46 what i meant is that people cant react to the actual throw, they react from what they think its coming, any person who could react to a throw after it connected would be unbeatable just based on his reactions, so no, you cant react to a throw and tech it, you react to tick throws or the opponent walking towards when close, but doing that he could be just baiting you to tech, then again, not you and no one else react to a throw and tech it, hope you understand now.
so... am i the only one who thinks that cammy got nerfed beyond game balance purposes on AE to help build hype for the twins? I mean she was good in super and very similar to the new palette swap characters they wanted to introduce so she got the shortest straw.
Nice videos. Weird music selection.