Due to the upcoming DLC release of SSF4: Arcade Edition on June 7th, I have begun fixing certain guides in response to the AE changelists that were posted a while back. Very few characters changed fundamentally, so this is just a quick heads up.
The next digest will likely include the rest of the characters who have modernized guides.
No offense but I don't think anyone really comes to Eventhubs for the character guides. Most of them aren't very good or aren't indepth enough. Especially guides for lesser used characters. And then there are the MvC3 guides which are pretty much completely useless.
Thought the changes for chun were. If you attempt to juggle into U1 it will drop halfway through the animation leading to a sagat style punishment in the corner. and her df lk was nerfed by a few frames
"No offense but I don't think anyone really comes to Eventhubs for the character guides. Most of them aren't very good or aren't indepth enough. Especially guides for lesser used characters. And then there are the MvC3 guides which are pretty much completely useless."
For the primary characters you fight, the guides are quite well developed, which is what you should mainly be worried about. Even SRK.com has some horrible boards for certain characters, and sometimes finding a good match-up thread is just irritating on lesser used characters. Ehubs does a darn good job, if you compare it to any other site. It gives you the basics, it's up to you to take that and run with it. There is too much in SF to cover in guides (especially when people aren't even that willing to write some themselves). If you want to learn things in-depth, hit the lab.
Rarer characters will always have not as good guides, because data on them is limited to a few people. Maybe a pro could be brought in to help, nothing wrong with outsourcing specific tasks if it makes for efficiency.
Wow, I'm surprised Chun-Li didn't get changed, I thought for sure she was getting nerfed. lol
Are you overwriting the old sections because Arcade Edition seems to work ALONGSIDE the old version, so maybe you should just leave a link somewhere to the old ones for people who play the older versions. No sense throwing away good work when someone, somewhere, might find it handy.
Chun did get nerfed.. and D/F + Light Kick was a really good anti-air, and a meterless Ultra set-up. She had some hitbox nerfs, as well. Her focus got nerfed, and she does less stun on a couple of moves.
She's definitely a worse character.
As for these guides in general... eh...
The Abel guide has some blatantly wrong factual info, like saying his super is a grab.
It has some VERY questionable opinions, like saying Abel has below average anti-air, and that he loses to "poking characters, like Rose". I don't believe either of those to be even close to true, personally.
Also, for a guide which updated the section on Breathless today, apparently, there is no mention of the way Breathless was changed for AE.. and it was changed in HUGE ways.
SRK character forums are generally horrible too, but they are just discussion groups... not much you can do about that. If you're going to promote something as a real guide, and a site feature, you should invest the time and effort (or money to just pay somebody) to make them good.
Just my 2ยข.
I don't want to promote myself in anyway, but I play Vega and the lack of info about him was very frustrating when I started playing SF4, so what I did was that I started a YouTube channel:
There, I compiled replays, guides, tutorials, links and everything I could find that was Vega related. If someone has the time for doing this with other (especially low tier and lesser used) characters it would definitely be a step in the right direction...Just a thought.
Good chun got nerfed... annoying character :P
But my Abel got nerfed to =( well, chun li got nerfed, im happy, i can workaround the abel nerf =D
In most matches I watched, DF + LK was almost never used. Also I fixed that typo on Abel's Heartless, even though I did say it was a blockable grab. Also are you sure about Abel's anti-airs? In AE all he has is cr.MK and st.HP, both lose to dominating jump-ins.
And if Abel has no problem with projectile characters, poking characters... does he only lose to straight rushdown? I was under the impression that great normal move users like Akuma (double HK), Rose(everything) and Bison(HK & MK) could really give Abel hell...
Also with Chun-Li, they actually made it so that it's easier for Chun-Li to absorb an attack, not to be hit out of its execution. It's an advantage for characters like Sagat/Chun-Li to have a big absorption hitbox. Makes attacks easier to counter.
She might be slightly worse, but that's not the issue. The real problem is that she has no chance against Yun and Yang... you have to outplay them like mad.
And ultimately, the only time I ever see Chun-Li stun someone is if they are straight dominating them with Lightning Leg juggles and throws... In the metagame, less stun on sweep does pretty much nothing to her. Chun-Li is not a stun-based rushdown pressure character.
The person who makes these guides obviously works hard, and, we should try to point out what's wrong.
If no one comes to Eventhubs for guides, then why do people come at all? The news posted isn't anything short of SRK...
I come here for the guides for new characters... Not like I need it, but it helps, the third strike guides were good, and need to be finished. Some of the things here are really good.
I agree, if you don't know the information, you shouldn't instigate upon it, but hey... The people work hard to make these guides.
Between Close Fierce, Low Forward, Low Fierce and Falling Sky, Abel can't get jumped on. He lacks a strong anti-air reversal, but at the highest level of play, everyone does, except Shotos.
If your Abel gets jumped on, you just aren't familiar enough with your options. From any angle, Abel has a proper anti-air that will win out against anything.
The only moves Abel has any real trouble with are Sakura's Jump Roundhouse, Honda's Jump Strong (though not in AE), and Sagat/Adon's Neutral Jump MK (and Adon's HK), and even those can be dealt with, if the Abel isn't scared to use Falling Sky.
As for Abel losing to pokes.. nah. Abel loses to Chun in SSF4, for a bunch of reasons. Her pokes play a role, but those, alone, wouldn't do it. Abel loses to Chun because she destroys him when she gets in, and she can make it difficult for Abel to get in on her.
Abel beats Rose, because she can't do any real damage to him, unless he just runs into her all day. Even on the ground at mid-range, she doesn't have a strong advantage. Between Step Kick, EX CoD and Stand Short, Abel can fight with Rose at mid-range, and once you knock her down once, she's got a really hard time getting up.
Abel loses to Akuma because he can demolish Abel after one knockdown. Stand Roundhouse isn't that big of a deal. That move is actually a huge risk for Akuma to toss out, since it can get neutral jumped and punished HARD.
Bison outpokes Abel too, but he loses once Abel gets one opening. His reversals can't stop Abel, and he's not gonna outpoke Abel all day. Once good guess on a jump, or one nice sweep/Step Kick, and he's in.
Abel loses to rushdown... kind of... it's not overwhelming rush, so much as it is a series of tough spots to deal with, that Abel can't get out of, once they get started. So once Akuma lands a knockdown... wrap it up. Once Cammy lands a hard knockdown.. next round.
Abel doesn't lose hard to Rufus (anymore), because he has defensive options in the fight, and Rufus just relies on overwhelming offense.. not setting up a series of REALLY tough situations, where he's gonna OS everything. That's how Abel loses to Chun. She lands one knockdown, then there's a bunch of OS'ing that all leads back into itself.
And Chun can DEFINITELY stun. Her offensive pressure is really good in some fights. I agree lowering stun on sweep isn't a huge deal though.
As for Chun in general.. yeah.. her biggest issue is that Yun is in the game. No question.
I'm glad I got your feedback HAV, it's probably not a coincidence that Abel is next on my C to Shining C run.
When I create matchup categories here, I'll keep your points in mind.
I'll change the bullet point about anti-airs to say "weak against characters with strong throw games" since Abel's only unthrowable reversal is the heavily punishable tornado throw.
I'll take on the Abel beats Rose argument. Played my fair share of good Abel players too, like Bustabust. I think things are changing though in AE, with the Ultra 2 start up for Rose, Abel can keep the pressure on more then.
I think Abel has a slight advantage in the Rose match up in SSF4, but Rose can hang with him. I'd say 5.5 Abel, 4.5 Rose. His rushdown mixups + damage is real strong, but Rose can keep up the pressure on Abel once she gets the offensive advantage too.
Her Close Standing MK lets her avoid throws and combo him on counter hit, her throw range is so huge Abel has to be real careful of rolling out of her offensive mix ups.
From my experience, it's a momentum match up, whoever gets it wins.
ill have to agree with a post earlier here about keeping the normal ssf4 data seeing how it will still be relevant. Im not sure how you guys have the site itself set up but i dont see the harm in including an addition table for the old values for damage and then a bonus break down after the Ex version part in a section stating any changes between both versions. So in the end just be adding data instead of overwriting the old one.
And im not sure if its worth anything regarding Abel in your guys opinion, it is utilizing his close standing roundhouse overhead. I rarely ever see abel users using it. It is possible to link into crouching strong or step kick when hits as a counter hit(which shouldnt be hard to fish that out with the crouch techers everywhere). May not be front page guide material but i dont see the harm in including the possibility of having the option to follow up after his overhead on the normals breakdown section atleast.
Even qualifying it to say his anti-air is weak against throws isn't accurate.
The way SSF4 works, if you attack in the air, you have 4 frames of grounded recovery. So, if you take a hard knockdown on Abel, and try to run Safe Jump OS Throw, even if you time it so that your safe jump hits perfectly on the last frame of your jump, coinciding with the first frame of Abel's wake-up (a perfect Safe Jump), there's one frame in the air, then 4 on the ground.... EX TT will grab, and there's nothing you can do about it.
The only options you have to thwart this would be to jump MUCH later, so that you spend at least 5 frames in the air, after Abel's wake-up (any decent Abel will see the change in timing, and either just block, or use Close Fierce as an anti-air on wake up), or empty jump-> throw. Empty jump-> throw is a decent option; I use it against Abel, but it's just one option in the tree. Regular mind games.
Again, at higher levels of play, to put a disclaimer for Abel's anti-air, you'd have to do the same for everyone except Shotos, because everyone else's anti-air reversals can get safe jumped, and thus, used against them (either to force a waste of two bars.. or, worse, to score big damage on the recovery if FADC isn't available).
It'd be more accurate to say that Abel has a tough time waking up, in general. He gets beat down by characters that can molest his wake-up, but jumping is by far the easiest thing for Abel to deal with on wake-up. As Abel, if you knock me down, then just stand over my body, I'm a a great disadvantage against a lot of characters. That disadvantage is diminished GREATLY, if I see you jump at me. At that point, it's just a matter of reading the timing, and figuring if I'm gonna get a FREE EX TT, or not. If I am, just take it (most people don't know enough about Abel to know that empty jump-> throw is a good option), if I'm not, determine whether I can anti-air with Fierce or EX Falling Sky, and if not, just block. The bad situation becomes almost braindead easy, as soon as jumping enters the equation.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I just think it's a HUGE misconception that Abel has weak anti-air, born from watching bad Abel players that don't focus on their defense at all. Good Abel players don't get jumped on. In fact, most jumps lead to a punish, and a free mix-up for Abel.
As for Abel/Rose, I didn't mean to imply that Abel destroys Rose or anything... just she doesn't beat him, IMO.
@23 I agree completely!
It has been the third installment now and they refuse to give Vega's ST decent priorities, refuse to give the man an anti-air normal. He is the ONLY person that doesn't have it. He had anti-air claw in the previous games. They also removed his fake wall-dive from previous games which would make his very tiny mix-up game incredible. They tried to fix the useless BHC, but now it whiffs if used as an anti-air. And now like a joke, they have lowered the damage of Izuana.
They most certainly hate Vega.
Tanks