NowGamer.com has posted their full two-page interview with Seth Killian that was held at E3. Topics covered include Street Fighter X Tekken's playstyle and balance in SSF4 Arcade Edition. Definitely a good read, here's a snip.
Right. Arcade Edition. Obviously the tiers have been established with Fei, Yun, Yang. Will Capcom be doing something about that?
Seth: There’s nothing planned right now but it’s something we’d consider, potentially. Right now, we don’t consider having top tiers as necessarily an issue that requires patching, or something. It’s something that’s interesting to change because I find changing balance infinitely interesting but just because there are top tier characters, it doesn’t mean they need to be changed to avoid having top tier characters.
Tip from NeoWhite.
Also, I'd like to know what tournament he was watching, because I haven't seen all that much variety thus far...
@2 Did you even see CEO? Top 3 were non-twins. ReveLAtions might have had top 3 as Yun, Fei, Yun, but two of those were Daigo and Mago, and aside from one other Yang, the rest of the top 8 was somewhat varied(two Vipers in top 8, and no one's complaining about Viper. Plus, Mago lost to a Viper in pools.).
I'm not saying the game is balanced or doesn't need to be patched, but aside from a few top players switching to the twins, there is still a good amount of variety out there.
We will see at evo guys. Im holding evo as the benchmark and how players feel about it before during and after the event. Its very early in the game but so far all signs point to it being not right....
The main reason i dont like it isnt down to the twins its the nerfs that got dished out that make no sense.
I don't understand why they just didn't keep it the same and just added the 4 characters.
The answer to 5 is the answer to 3
Because they like FKing with you!
EVO2k11 will be nothing but Yun and Yangs and Fei's and vipers and balrogs and maybe some ibukis and makotos Daigo is gonna win because Americans are free and for mvc3 its gonna be a phoenix team that wins since Dark Phoenix equals a 99.99% chance of winning
@9: I'm not sure about Ibuki. Even back in Super, with her BS vortex intact, she wasn't that popular. Now that you have to work for it, she'll be even less of a presence.
I just don't like the amount of frame advantage the twins get off of some of there normals and special moves.
But I want to learn how to beat the twins and in turn become a better player. Kinda off going with the old school mentailty of "sink or swim" when it comes to issue of a balance patch.
"but just because there are top tier characters, it doesn’t mean they need to be changed to avoid having top tier characters...."
And if you're a Guile player.....
I love how they nerfed Sentinel within a month with no grounds to go on other than "Baawwwwwwwww I can't counter a slow character with limited opportunities and high health" but let Yun and Fei run around and destroy everything in their path.
I bet if Marn and J. Wong cried about the twins like they did for sentinel, Capcom would be all ears.
Crapcom, please nerf DAIGO. USA players not be able to win it in AE.
Crapcom, please nerf DPHOENIX, Wrong not able to win in MVC3.
Crapcom, please nerf all games releaseds, all players not able to play....
Ridiculous posts. USA players, cry for all...Ridiculous...USA FREE.
How about...UNDO the nerfs for all the characters.
The only reason CEO had a mix of character use is because AE just dropped and alot of tourney players didn't get to hit the lab extensively yet. Expect many more character swaps by time Evo rolls around.
Also Fuerte is actually looking buffed with his now near spam-able cr. jab.
Lastly you guys complain way too much. Drop your character for a top tier (viper, ken, makoto included) or just don't play the f'ing game. sf4 in the grand scheme is a lame FG anyway.
I really wish they'd put Alex and Karin in *sigh* why evil ryu and oni? just doesn't make sense
No one has ever said anything about not wanting high tier characters. Without making every character the exact same that would be impossible.
What people want is for the high tiers to not be easy mode or overly cheap. Yun, Yang and Fei aren't just top tier. That'd be fine. It's the fact that all three are incredibly easy to use and have so many strong tools that garners the reaction they've received. This game isn't Third Strike. Let it be well balanced. It's not like the game engines any good so help us out.
Capcom HOW the F--K can you do this??? How can you make the top-tier characters be the Asian characters???
Why not make the top-tier/broken characters be an American Soldier. Oh wait, that has already happened. Guile was undeniably top-tier in SSF4. In SSF4, Guile had such large advantages that certain characters had no chance of winning.
And back in SSF4, there were players who were so patriotic that they'll tell you to STFU if you dare criticize Guile for being Over-Powered. I mean Guile is an American Soldier and things will only be right if the character that is OP is an American character right???
Sadly, Yun, Yang, and Fei-Long are not American Soldiers so they do not get the respect for being top-tier. They get a lot of hate instead.
@27: Wrong on every single account.
You have officially given up any pretense of subtlety and embraced the Dark Side.
Can we ban him now?
@25
You say Yun, Yang, and Fei-Long are cheap??? You should consider visiting the SSF4 version of Guile. SSF4-Guile was way more of an "easy mode" character who can rack up "overly cheap" victories. Racking up cheap victories was WAYYY easier with SSF4-Guile than Yun, Yang, or Fei in AE.
Oh wait, I'm sorry. Guile is an American Soldier so we should all avoid criticizing the fact that he was cheap and extremely OP in SSF4. But Yun, Yang, and Fei??? Those 3 are all Chinese, and we as Americans don't want Chinese characters to be top-tier. We want American Soldiers are Top-Tier. F--K Yea???
@28
LOL. Can you please give a reasonalble explanation of how I am "Wrong on every single account"???
You'll have to prove me as wrong, and just blatantly saying that I'm "wrong on every single account" isn'y going to cut it there boy.
BTW THE_GODDAMN_MASTER I want to ask you.
Back during the days of SSF4, when Guile was OP and Cammy had the TKCS, were you one of those people who constantly said GTFO out of America to players who criticized Guile as being OP???
You know, the SF players who had an extremely strong racist and nationalistic pride that they'll attack anyone who criticizes the American Soldier as being a cheap/OP character that he was???
It seems that I hurt your racist and nationalist pride with my posts there buddy.
@#27 yes guile was top tier but i doubt a japanese company made him so because of race.
You call everyone who doesn't love FYF racist, you call Americans in general racist, you think that Guile was the god-tier character of Super, you invent fictional players who told people to STFU if they 'dare[d] criticize Guile' (when in fact MANY people criticized Guile during Super's run and weren't bashed into the ground with anything approaching the fervor of the twins' fans)...
wtf just happened to this thread...SERIOUSLY.
The trolling is epic. and he whining is gdlk too.
@32
Did you even bother reading before replying? I never mentioned anything about the Japanese companies.
The focus of my posts has always been centered on the average SF4-players.
The main point of my post was that SSF4-Guile racked up cheap victories much more easily than either Yun, Yang, or Fei-Long can in AE. But at the same time, there was almost little to no hate going against Guile back in SSF4, while the hate going against Yun, Yang, and Fei long in AE is just tremendous. Matter of fact, there were a lot of people who would say things like "Get out of America" if you criticize Guile as being OP.
Now if you're going to try and tell me that Guile is an American Soldier while Yun/Yang/Fei are Chinese characters has absolutely no effect on the disporportionate hate that Yun, Yang, and Fei-Long are now getting, then you'll just be in denial. Of course racism and nationalism on the part of the players is a major reason for why there's so much hate going against Yun, Yang, and Fei-Long and how Guile and Cammy got none of that BS back in SSF4.
@34
Tell that to all the Twin haters. Also, try telling that to all the CammyFans who are complaining about the fact that Cammy lost her TKCS.
The twins were made flashy and powerful to get people hyped for 3S Online. There's no way we're going to see a patch until 3S Online has been out for a few months. By then, SFxT (the obvious replacement for SF4) will be right around the corner, so I doubt we'll see a patch at all. AE is going to have a very short tournament life.
@39: She got nothing but buffs, is said to be better than Ken and just as good as Makoto, and the four people who used her dropped her.
There's something wrong with the tier lists...
Who uses Guile?
Anyway, awesome work on nerfing everyone Capcom.
Honestly, your making U.S. stay free due to these much needed changes within the roster.
I mean honestly... Gouken back throw and E.honda overall damage was just too good amirite???
F--k you.
P.S. Zangief still free vs Rose
If this weekend there are a whole bunch of players I have never seen before placing top 10 all of a sudden with Yun like Hsien Chang last weekend then maybe there is a problem.
As of right now its still the same old players who took the top spots. You can't attribute that to character when they have been winning with other characters before.
I don't see how Cammy is much worse if not better. Tiger Knee Cannon Strike was nice, but it was a tool that you actually couldn't abuse against people who knew what the hell they were doing. Now she has better frame advantage on her normals and crazy hit stun on hit. I'm not Alioune though, so what do I know?
Also, Fei is not an easy character to play as. He's one of the best in the game but he's not easy mode.
@44
Thankyou. That was what I've been getting to the whole time. In terms of easy mode, Cammy and Guile in SSF4 had the easiest of all characters in SSF4. Yun, Yang, and Fei are no where near as easy to play as Guile in SSF4. And in SSF4, certain characters did not have an answer to Cammy's TKCS and those characters were just dead in the water.
I would disagree with your comment saying that TKCS is not abusable though. For example, recall Sako's matches during Godsgarden-SSF4 a while back. Sako totally crushed his opponents by abusing the TKCS against Daigo, Momochi, and most of all against Uryo's C.Viper. Mago's Fei was able to defeat Cammy and a lot of people were talking about the fact Fei had a better answer to Cammy's TKCS definately made a difference in the outcome.
America!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUrwVG...
Get Hype for NCR 9!!
@fireinthehole
You are kinda right about the whole twins getting tons of hate compared to Guile did in Super. And you're right about guile racking up cheaper victories in super. Because all guile does is sonic boom,flashkick, and cr. fierce whereas the twins and Fei actually require hands to play.
But please dude, stop with all the comments on racism/nationalism. You're either making sh*t up or just blowing up a few jokers you encountered online or something. It's not cuz he's American. It's cuz he has a crapton of fans in general, probably the most recognizable SF character behind ryu,ken, and chun. He was low-tier in vanilla, fans complained, so they buffed him for the guile fans (not Americans). Same with Cammy, as she is also one of the most popular SF faces. BTW Cammy is British so stop putting her alongside Guile
After SSF4 was out for a while, Capcom realized they balanced the game much better, but there were 2 problems: A)The 10 new characters were low-mid tier at best and bottom tier at worst, so they were relatively unpopular and unsuccessful in tourneys (except gamerbee).
B)The top 5 were all charge characters, they were ez to play, and downback ruled the day. Honda was boring and did too much damage per hit, Dictator was a dick, guile was a turtle, Balrog is jab short headbutt ultra to corner, etc.
Shifting the balance to offensive characters might've been a better choice to extend the lifespan of SF4 and make more exciting matches. I believe that they learned from Super that no matter how hard you balance a game, there will always be top characters. For AE, they added the offense-ortiented twins and ensured those new characters were serious business and wouldn't be shunned like Hakan or Makoto were in Super. Intentionally creating their own top tiers in offense-style would avoid unintended bore-fests which is what most SSF4 matches were becoming thanks to the characters involved.
That's my take, from what i can see anyways. Race is not a factor. They buffed ken over ryu, not cuz he's american but because he is more rushdown oriented. Same with Sakura and her mixups which are infinitely more entertaining than ryu's zoning. 3 chinese/hongkong dudes in the top because of their playstyle not because they're chinese. People hate them cuz their dominance is so immediate and obvious whereas it took a while to figure Super's tiers. Right now they have a variety of defensive AND offensive characters all over the place in terms of balance. But the ones that matter most, the top dogs, were placed there to avoid downback snoozefests in the long run. I hope Ono and Seth are right in that people will find counter-strategies against them eventually. My only worry is that they'll be simply too strong for that to happen, but i doubt it. The point of rushdown is to make your opponent not think, and people simply aren't thinking when fighting these guys, no wonder they feel like giving up.
Seths answer seems like a joke. No, really.
Of course there will always be difference in strength, but besides that, it was all BS. Difference in strength can be adjusted by Capcom, and they have done it with numerous balance changes. But tell why certain charactes are, clearly, insanely good and others are... Well, really bad. A great example is Gen. He was kinda cool in Vanilla, and his great meter build kinda balanced out his low damage output. He's kinda a high-risk, high-reward character in some ways, except you reward is probably only high when you have super. So they stripped him of his great meter build, screwed with his hands and HK Gekiro and lo and behold, Gen sucked more than he used to. There is ABSOLUTELY no way you can rationalize that they nerfed a character who was already underused and only so-so - he wasn't in any way OP.
And along comes AE with ungodly buffs to someone like Makoto, and in comes to, potentially, ungodly characters. And Gen gets 2 target combos and slight adjustments to his normals.
Or how about nerfing Ryu a lot, and give Ken just about every tool Ryu had, effectively making Ken the new Ryu?
Where's the sense in that? It doesn't even look like they try, care or thought their changes through.
It's like some kind of weird horrendous inside joke at Capcom. 'Let's see how much we can screw with them and still have them pay for our games. MUAHAHAHAHAHA'
@#35 what are you talking about? i read your post but why any complain about a rarely used character anyways? the point i was making is that race is in no way shape or form a factor in whether or not a character is complained about. guile didn't have to work for victories but no one complained because no one uses guile. he was and always will be a turtle. you have bring the fight to him. since he never had many options to play offensive he was always seldom used.
@51
Look man. I'm White myself. And I'm proud to be on of those "Damned Liberals." OK
And I think that your whole post #51 is aimed at one purpose: Denial. Racism and Nationalistic bias are definately two major factors influencing the issue at hand here.
Of course, at this day and age, if someone likes a certain character or hates a certain character due to racism/nationalism then do you think that he/she will be honest and tell it as it is or do you think that they will deny it and give an ulterior reason.
BTW, the number of people who says things like "leave America" "Hey he represents the REAL American" to those who dare criticize Guile are not just "a few." It was actually quite common place for players to suppress the voice of those who had something to say agaisnt Guile's OPness.
BTW, I know that Cammy is British. But what does that mean on the bigger picture? Most players are educated enough to realize that America does come from England which is why British is also another favored nationality amongst the nationalistic players. Also, what about her physical appearance?
Now where I grow up, there are LOTS of neo-nazi SF players. And Cammy is definately a favorite amongst the neo-Nazi SF crowd. I've actually talked extensively about this in another thread. And her physical appearance should be a dead give-away for why neo-nazi SF players love her sooo much.
Lets face it...Sf4 is dead.
Capcom wont make any money by balancing AE.
:[
@51
BTW, I saw that you've mentioned Ryu and Chun-Li. Well their stories are quie complex.
The thing here is that in terms of nationality: Ryu is Japanese and Chun-Li is Chinese. But let's look beyond mere nationality and look at the racial factor.
Now in terms of race: Does Ryu even look a tad-bit Japanese? No. He looks like an average White-American. Now if you were to ask a random person who has never played Street Fighter, the person would most likely think that Ryu is a white-American Karate boy named John or something.
BTW, I go onto youtube quite a bit and there are many places where people mention the fact that Ryu does not look like he's Japanese at all and that Ryu looks like an American (White American to be more specific).
The same story goes with Chun-Li. Chun-Li also looks more White than she does Asian.
Now with Yun. He's a different story. His skin tone is "Yellowish" and he has those distinctively "Asiatic" eyes. Neither of those two distinctive traits are observed in either Ryu or Chun-Li even though those two characters are from Asian nationalities.
@#53 this is incredible. when you have people like yourself overusing the race argument it discredits real race related problems that happen all the time. ryu is THE most popular fighting character ever and he's japanese. i have never liked guile because he's a turtle not because he's white. i guess since i'm black i should be using balrog(boxer) and not sakura.
@57
I already discussed Ryu in post #56. Ryu may be Japanese by ethnicity, but does he look Japanese at all? No, he looks American (white American).
What the hell?
When the ballz did we go from balancing questions to races and such?
Really?
REALLY?!
-_-
Anywho, STAYING ON TOPIC; as of now, I find everything perfectly fine. I've stuck with Vega since SF4 and he still dominates(Though since I picked up on Ken, he does feel better in AE than in Super) Nonetheless, I don't let tiers bother me or OP characters bother me. Didn't have any problems with Sagat in SF4, nor with Guile in SSF4 nor with the Twins in AE.
@#58 please address the rest of my post also. tekken, the second most popular fighting game franchise after street fighter, has it's most popular characters jin and kazuya. wanna take a wild guess what the ethnicity of those characters are(it's quite obvious)? i also love how your response to ryu is essentially that "he doesn't look asian enough for you".
@60
VoodooChild, in post #58 of mine, I addressed your assertions in post #57. Now just where in post #57 did you mention Tekken?
This is post #57, which I was responding to in post #58: "@#53 this is incredible. when you have people like yourself overusing the race argument it discredits real race related problems that happen all the time. ryu is THE most popular fighting character ever and he's japanese. i have never liked guile because he's a turtle not because he's white. i guess since i'm black i should be using balrog(boxer) and not sakura."
In no where does it mention Tekken at all. And as for Tekken, I've never played the game. Most of the gamers where I live don't play Tekken either. They mostly play MK and SF.
Just when you think the community has become an intelligent voice someone like fireinthehole shows up and starts whining about everything under the sun.
Then the same simpletons turn around and wonder why nearly every character in the game got nerfed to give less intelligent players a chance against them.
@62
Speaking of lacking intelligence ehh? Well, your petty use of ad-hominem attack against me surely isn't making you seem like the wise guy here.
@62
BTW, you talk about how AE was made so that the "less intelligent" players could do well.
Now if you haven't been paying attention, most people here, including my opponents in the debate have already agreed to the fact that racking up cheap and auto-pilot victories with SSF4-Guile was MUCH easier to do than with either Yun, Yang, or Fei-Long in AE. In SSF4, Cammy could also abuse her TKCS on characters with no way to answer.
With those facts at hand, you've clearly showed that you're the one lacking intelligence when you made the baseless assertion that AE was designed so that the "less intelligent" players could do well.
WHat do you guys WANT to see in a tourniment bracket?
1 Ryu
2 Dahlsim
3 Gen
4 Dan
5 Akuma
6 Honda
7 Cammy
8 chun
?
its not gonna happen. Out of 16 possible characters in the two top 8s, 6 were twins. Thats whatever. There were 12 other showsings that you are clearly ignoring. You are also ignoring the fact that 3s was hugely popular, and people were demanding Yun and Yang long before they were announced. Even if they WERENT top tier, you would see a strong showing from them. And they arent THAT bad. They have hard counters.
@#61 wow you are an idiot. i said to address the rest of my post because the only part you did is the one referring to ryu not the most important part that deals with people like yourself over playing the race card and discrediting legitimate racial concerns by doing so. and no my post didn't have tekken involved nor did i imply that it did. i brought up tekken in another post as a counterargument to yourt implication that ryu being so popular should count because he isn't "asian enough".
@#61 wow you are an idiot. i said to address the rest of my post because the only part you did is the one referring to ryu not the most important part that deals with people like yourself over playing the race card and discrediting legitimate racial concerns by doing so. and no my post didn't have tekken involved nor did i imply that it did. i brought up tekken in another post as a counterargument to your implication that ryu being so popular should count because he isn't "asian enough".
Ofcourse he's an idiot, he's trolling. Then again..you must be trolling too because nerfs in game or disproportionately buffing characters has nothing to do with race.
GG
Campcom will never make a patch, stop acting like thats even a possibility. I agree with @55, SF4 is dead. The reason for the balancing changes in AE is one of the most intringuing mysteries in history. it is as great a mystery as the creation of the universe. People can come up with all these theorys and speculations, but there is no reasoning that makes sense towards making the game better. Capcom is a international company. There is no way on earth that they don't know how to make the balances. they've had plenty of time to watch the teirs in Super. If i had to guess, I'd sat that Capcom wants to eliminate the whole aspect of "bad matchups" and create a game with only 5 or so viable characters so that it is soley for the purspose of competitive play. this way if we can let go of the saltiness of our nerfed mains it can truly be a game for high level play. Basically i discard every player in AE except for Fei, Yun, Yang, Balrog, Viper, Makoto, and Ken. of course there are few more, but that is basically the competition. a fast paced game with out the worry of character unframiliarality and surprises. Thats the only way this game could posibly make sense. Like utilizing all 39 characters? not gonna ever happen in AE, we got super for balance. Thats just the way it is.
@70
Like i said, the ONLY way their "balance"changes make any sense is if you figure that they just gave the dumb players what they want. I mean, when was the last time you heard any half decent player whine about blanka ball?
It's like they took every half-witted complaint they ever saw more than once and turned it into a nerf to appease people who can't learn. Super was basically the best gae capcom has ever had in terms of balance, and these guys were still crying when we saww soo much diversity and variety, now the same guys are crying and some even want more nerfs.
Capcom just has to stop trying to please the low levels who call out nerfs rather than trying to learn anything about the game
The thing about rebalance patches is that there's always someone who gets upset at a change for every person who is delighted, and it forces people to start over again when the game has tons of untapped depth and years of life.
This is one case where I hope the suits don't decide a rebalance is profitable and as a result the AE balance gets trounced, as (due to something I discovered) I think there was more thought put into it than people would ever think to guess. I imagine the devs put things in there that will be discovered years down the line.
honda still had vanilla dmg so whoever up there that was defending hondas dmg is a fuking idiot.the only char nerfs that make no sense is el fuerte and guile u2 dmg nerf that's it(the rest of his nerfs are ok).the rest is fine.these chars were nerfed so the twins wouldn't get sonic boomed cr.fp to death(btw guile had some of the most braindead wins in super and some of the best players used guile diminion,warhawke,lamerboi,josh wong,etc.), or get blown up by free tkcs,or ryu cr.mk spam and run like a bitch tatsu.even as ryu is now he can sh!t on the twins if they aren't played perfectly.I won't even go into how bad it would've been for them if honda kept his dmg.1 hit from him would've done what most supers do to them.
most of u on here aren't looking at the fact that neither twin can take a hit,neither twin does a lot of dmg outside of super/ultra and both twins are heavy on execution especially with regards to maximizing dmg on their supers.plus their dive kicks get beat by most st.jabs in the game.scrubs can't play these chars and place high in tourney.these chars need to be played to perfection to be truly effective. if ppl are placing with them its cuz they put in the work.
The only char nerfs that made no sense were.....
Well, this is easier to talk about nerfs that DID make sense, so maybe just bisons motion change, and abels ultra 2. Any others range from scrub-tastic to just plain hatred.
@above
some of those "best players" were playing guile in vanilla, so once he got buffed they just win more because their work actually got rewarded, stop crying because i don't remember anyone talking about Guile being overpowered in vanilla, so how would he be OP since he did less damage in super? He still had almost every weakness.
Then he goes on to defend the twins that have more advantages than any of those characters had in the last game, which explains why they have more bad matchups.All twins have to worry about is...zangief, each other, and fei long.
I hate how this site has sooo much info and it seems like most posters aren't even bright enough to use it
You idiots should quit whining. You have the option to switch modes. I could maybe understand if you morons were complining about deejay who all the top ranked guys on psn are using, he was buffed so much, but then again I like the game and I also don't act like a spoiled brat if I don't "get what I want". And to fireinthehole, I haven't seen any remotely racist post on any boards anywhere. You sir are making huge assumptions based on zero evidence (read, FACTS). I would guess you're projecting your own latent racism on everyone else. Get over yourself. I know. No one complained about nerfing sentinel because all of you are robot racists and sentinel is made in china like all other cheap mass-produced crap. ROBOT HATERS! That is exactly what you look like to everyone else here. So to sum up, all of you quit hating on the twins, they're fun to play with, you sound like a bunch of pissed off nerds, oh wait....nevermind.....switch back to original mode.... and quit being such robot racists. Peace.
I don't think they've ever considered characters being leaps and bounds above the rest an issue that requires patching.
Not to mention with a patch that size, they'd probably just rerelease a new version of the game instead...