NowGamer.com posted an excerpt from an upcoming interview they have with Capcom's Seth Killian. In the piece Seth states that player feedback is a big factor, but adds the punch was spiked a bit in regards to balance."At the beginning obviously we only have our internal stuff, in addition to some of the feedback we get from focus tests and bringing the game out to events and in front of strong players. At that point, obviously, our internal testing leans more heavily also. We’ll have thousands of hours on the game versus other people who have only played for an hour or two."
Killian said that player feedback was important to Super Street Fighter 4, but conceded that the game could have been even more balanced. "We listen to their ideas at that point and going forward, we listen to the collective top players of the world in whatever happens next. In many ways, that’s how we got from Super. What should we have done to Super to make it more balanced... there’s maybe some argument there that maybe we could balance Super further but someone decided to spike the punch a little bit and say let’s do this and we’re going to have strong guys, and that’s okay."
The Capcom developer added that the differing goals for each game can result in varying ways. "In some ways, it’s just a philosophical change from game to game. So maybe the target isn’t always having everybody on exactly the same par. I know that’s not going to be a popular answer and in his defense, in Super, there were only marginal changes that we could have made to make it more balanced. It would have been pretty unexciting."
"At the beginning obviously we only have our internal stuff,"
-Make the main character really easy to use and easy to get wins with.
Killian said that player feedback was important to Super Street Fighter 4,
-Sagat
So maybe the target isn’t always having everybody on exactly the same par.
-NO FKING $#!+
U A-HOLES Nerf characters that are not even USED 5% compared to the rest of the cast!
Yet BUFF strong characters or nerf them in a small area because of your AGENDA.
What's next? you gonna nerf Capt. America or MODOK in SMvC3 like you did Vega and El Fuerte in AE?
Y balance the game Capcom?
WHY WASTE TIME INCLUDING CHARACTERS that cant be used seriously like Arthur.
Yet you give us CRAP like Sentinel with almost every tool in the game! Then you nerf is health...
NEWSFLASH CRAPCOM-HIS HEALTH WAS NOT THE ISSUE...MORONS!!!
It's the INSANE Priority he has in most categories thanks to that armor and juggle state on moves YOU GAVE him.
This is why pirating YOUR games is a GOOD THING!
Besides the upcoming DmC
@3 They problem isn't that Yun and Yang were added. The problem is how they balenced them.
None the less they aren't broken, just strong in capable hands. Take a look at some of the people at CEO who tried counter picking with the twins just to get blown up.
Dont get me wrong you make good games but RETARDED decisions sometimes...INTENTIONALLY making bad characters just to have us talk about them or be shocked when they win.
Sagat wasnt broken he just had WAY more good things going for him compared to the rest that made no sense.
Like juggling off normals and lots of different frame traps.
I don't think Yun or Yang are as overpowered as, at least, Yun or Ken were in 3rd Strike. Honestly, before SSFIV, fighting games had way more 'broken' characters and people didn't complain. They just accepted it and dealt with them. Some players still do, like Mike Ross who, sure, complains a lot about the twins, but he sticks with his character and tries to figure them out instead of just 'joining the enemy'.
However! I do think SSFIV was a greatly balanced game and they did throw that all away with Arcade Edition. I still enjoy the game, but it's gonna be lame seeing tournaments with mostly Yuns or Yangs in top 8 lists or whatever. As a watcher more than a player in these tournaments, I rather see a variety of characters and have a few surprises here and there.
I understand having strong chars, but over-nerfing is just not nice. Make Guile male again.
Let's be honest here when we mention Twins we really only mean Yun, We have yet to see Yang really dominate as compared to Yun the only thing that they are equal on is the meter building palms and there active frames (things that should be nerfed) the only other nerf is the EX Lunge bs that you can throw it like a random DP and not get punished for it on block. The divekicks aren't a real issue if you are smart about it, but some nerfs just leave you scratching your head and wonder if this is developers or "top players" who presented these complaints/changes.
Currently even the buff characters aren't showing much promise considering that Yun came in and basically exposes them now Oni & Ginger need more time to see where they will be in terms of strength until then it's all theory fighter at this point.
Unexciting is watching NSB with half of the people using Yun. There ends up being a Yun almost every match and sometimes Yun mirrors. Spamming dive kicks and full screen EX lunge punch? Wall bounce in a SF4 game with EX palm? I'd rather just put SF4 on the shelf and wait for SFxT if they don't rebalance AE.
Yun and Yang aren't broken. There are many characters on par with them. If I were to categorize this game, I would say that the top 12ish characters are amazing and the rest have potential. I would much rather have rush down characters dominating a game than charge characters because it makes the game faster paced.
After getting some time in with the game myself (finally!) and having watched most of the tourneys this past weekend, the twins - specifically Yun - are not "broken". That word is getting thrown around way too much, I think.
They're very powerful, sure (again, Yun in particular). But it seems like a lot of people are just parroting what's being said by a select few others and not even trying to find ways around them.
I know it's an odd comparison, but it's like MvC3 Sentinel at launch all over again, where everyone screamed how OP he was but didn't really bother to find ways around him.
I agree with the first post. I think seeing a larger variety of characters is much more exciting then watching an underdog. I do not expect perfect balance actually I think every character should have a few bad matchups and that will happen no matter how hard you try to balance a game due to move sets and normals.
I think that the biggest issue is that Yang if played right has no big risks. He can kill zoning. He gets in with little to no risk be through Ex Lunge or Dive kick or even through a FADC. Then you got his high damage out put. His 5-7 frame tenshin. His Meter building. His awesome normals.... maybe not for footsies but frame traps galore. Hard to punish reversal. His downside is that he has low health.... yeah....
Now its still very early so I cant say that there wont be anti yun technology found out in the future. But atm things dont look so hot.
AE is fine and the twins are not broken. I thought people would have learnt by now that patches don't fix anything.
many times i read 'you need skill to play as the twins'. i think they're even easier to play than vanilla sagat. so far i dont have a good time playing AE. maybe thats what capcom wants (to build sfxt hype). or they want everybody to play their games for one or two years and move on, then the next generation of casual players gets their time.
but i'm used to bad decisions and sf getting only worse since sf4-ssf4 gen changes..
I kept some statitiscs during my first 200 or so fights with AE (both on x360 and PS3) and the characters I have seen most were Evil Ryu (24 times) and Oni (26 times), while the so-called "overpowered" twins were stuck at 16 times (Yun) and 14 times (Yang). Considering the fact that these are the new characters, these numbers don't surprise me. What does surprise me, though, is that Oni and Evil Ryu seem way more popular than the twins.
On topic: Most FG's are imbalanced, AE not worse than others. The twins seem very powerful now, but will that still be the case 6 months or a year from now? Remember Iceman from MvC2?
I understand why AE is balance like it is.
If you pay for it in the Arcade per game you want to pick a Character that can win.
But bring AE too the Console was the wrong thing too do.
They should have rebalance super , rebalance AE characters to fit in and called SSF4 turbo.
@28: Depends on the player.
Yun has higher potential to be reached but requires a player with knowledge and intelligent mixup game. Sagat can only be taken so far and then you're the best a Sagat can be. Yun just seems limitless in where he can be taken...
AE Yun is more likely to come out on top in a 1-20 set than Vanilla Sagat. Sagat was easy to get in on, you just paid very dearly on health when you didn't. Yun has far more mixup and reset options than any character in the series, surpassing even Seth on that front, so if you can remain a step ahead of your opponent mentally you'll repeatedly maul him to death.
Remember how Sako lost 0-5 against Daigo in god's garden, then went on to win the first to ten set? That's because rushdown characters need to read correctly. Once you start knowing the answers to which option to pick, and you have more options than the opponent's character, you'll ride roughshod over him.
The thing is, rushdowns are _supposed to get pummeled_ when they guess wrong. Cammy required correct spacing and timing on everything. Yun can just go and go and go with almost no thought.
In other words, Sako with Yun would be like Sako with Cammy x10 and takes away all the stress and calculation of correctly spacing moves since Yuns moves are stupidly safe, leaving you mentally freed to focus solely on the mixup.
This makes absolutely no sense. You unbalanced the game because you felt it would be more exciting? That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. AEs balance issues are the main reason I don't have any desire to play it and that its even less exciting to spectate.
You guys need to seriously reevaluate your approach to updating your titles.
I definitly agree with #1.
More playable characters = more fun, sp. in tourney
Seeing always the same chars = boring
CAPCOM have to understand that if SFIII-3 has been so popular through ages, it's not because of Yun and Chun being unbalanced and god tiers, no.
SFIII-3 has been so popular thx to the realllllly great gameplay holding the game, despite the pretty annoying unbalanced characters.
Only my two cents though.
It's sad how many people are still defending Yun and Yang at this point.
It's equally sad how many people are defending CAPCOM when Seth tacitly admits that some characters are way stronger than others.
If the goal was to drop the strive for perfect balance and instead of just adding a few unbalanced characters, why not just completely change the way the entire cast plays?
Add completely new moves, airblocks, air throws, usuable wall bounces, etc.
Sure, the Yun might have still come up on top. But what if Dan, with a completely altered moveset was a 7-3 matchup for Yun? If you're going for unbalance, make sure everyone has something on their side.
I was talking about viability of AE characters and Mike's placing at CEO seems to me that Honda is still a viable character. Tokido won with Akuma, so to me that shows that there are possibilities to win with other characters than the twins.
Am I saying that Capcom should or shouldn't have nerfed or buffed certain characters? No, not at all. Some of their decisions baffle me too, but to act as if AE is just about Yun and Yang seems a tad exxagerated.
Capcom's plan: Make AE some what inbalance with nerfs and full of options twins(Yang's jab to ultra...WAT!!).
Make players stop playing AE since is kinda BS after we already bought it and figure out is kinda brokenish.
We wait in anticipation to buy SFxT.
While SF4 dies.(Capcom does not make money of old games)
Wasn't Fei Long estimated at being higher tier? Why is he not broken? The twins may be strong, but broken... I don't think so. But strong or not, show some backbone yourselves and stick to your own characters.
@caruga: If you make statements like 'twins are broken' you should be the one to prove it.
i sort of understand seth in a sense, if you add stuff to the new version of a game you have to add some really good stuff for people to actually bother with it, i mean with 40 characters they really have to stand out.
on the other hand though some of this stuff is just crap, i mean yun can seemingly juggle everything with ultra and super, he just seems to be from another game entirely compared to guys like guile or honda.
not that they can't beat him, but, you know, it just feels unfair that somebody can comeback with ultra into super into 30 seconds of marvel style combo while somebody else has no consistent setups to even land ultra. meh
Twin players in US don't have as much experience yet as those who plays their (nerfed) mains or tokido who plays against twins all the time, which is why I think the CEO argument is kind of moot.
It's fair to assume japan is 6 months ahead of the US meta, and that you will see a similliar development (meaning loads of yuns at high level play).
Posted by Osbjorn on June 14, 2011 at 12:19 a.m. #9
Yun and yang are not broken. You people need to stop whinning
By you people i mean you commenter number 2
^^^^^^
He couldn't have said it better....you people don't like a challenge. I have NO complaints about SSF4AE SSF4 OR SF4.
I don't care who is higher tier or who was nerf or buff...whatever...I WILL find a way to get around it...and it seems like people don't want to find a way around the nerfs or the buffs, or the "overly powered people."
I've fought yun, and yang and have had NO problems with them, and I've been using Gen. every person who plays this game has a pattern, you figure it out, and counter it....problem solve....stop crying so damn much.
Experience would be nullified if the twins were really OP. Weren't the prebvious arguments that even a noob can pick them up and win, that they don't take skill? You guys seem to make up stuff as we go along.
If Tokido can hold his own with his main not being one of the twins, why can't we? That's all I'm saying.
People need to step their game up and stop looking for excuses. My character got nerfed for no reason but I'm not going to blame Capcom, S-Kill, or the Twins. I blame all the people crying "He's BROKEN! Wah wah"
@43
Well it just shows that Tokido either got: months of experience against the twins (which he has) or is just alot better than the people who were using the twins (guilty again).
I mean,the twins aren't as noob-friendly as Ryu/Ken but they are still OP.
Besides,6 out of the 10 best Japanese players (BP wise) use the twins.
Thats it?
What about his dive kick pressure... extremely safe and easy block strings.
God like uppercut.
or how about his command throw?
How about his piss easy combos into ultra?
Or genei jin?
Or that fakeable palm of death with the largest hit box I've ever seen?
but yeah sure... that lunge punch is a bitch too
I'm fairly sure I have never said a noob can pick up twins and win a major tournament. Maybe it's you who are making stuff up ;-)
Well, another way to crack it is, everyone was pretty free to Tokido despite him not using twins (akuma: a character everyone should have experience against by now).
Like I said, Japan has had arcade for almost 7 months which means they have been able to experiment and experience the twins infinitely more than americans have at this point in time. This by itself puts the japanese meta game at a higher level than the american and to think otherwise is simply laughable.
Personally, I couldn't care less what the average Joe thinks ("OMG BROKEN!" or "I HAS 100% WIN ONLINE, THEY NO TOP TIER") about the twins and their potential but the fact of the matter is that a lot of high level players have stated their concerns regarding the twins and the state of the game. Ryan Hart, Gamerbee, Sabin, Mike Ross, Tokido just to name a few. Even Daigo was asked if yun has any weakness, to which he just smiled and shook his head. Quite unsurprisingly, everyone was pretty free to Daigo at revelations, too.
We are not meaning that only the twins are viables, we're meaning they're "a tad too much unbalanced" compared to most part of the cast.
Way different.
Would CAPCOM make the EX lunge punch unsafe for Yun and it would be it ! Is it that difficult to consider ?
BTW there is a difference between "challenge" and "WTF?".
dive kick pressure - just learn to block,
godlike uppercut - easy avoidable.
Command throw - easy avoidable
piss easy combos into ultra - Alot of characters got those..
Genei Jin - doubt any player online will really master that,if they do,bummer.
Fake palm - havent come across alot of Yun players using it well..so I wouldn't know.
And yeah,my only grip = the ex lunge punch.
either adapt and enjoy Hong Kong Fighter 4!
Dive kick is only save when used with good spacing, I've thrown them out of it most of the time.
Even if he can combo that easily into ultra, it's getting scaled ad the damage wasn't already ridiculous.
Geneijin doesn't do that much damage, it's only annoying that you'll be floating around the screen for a long time IF the opponent knows how to juggle properly.
Maybe it's the characters I play or the people I encounter online, but I've never actually thought of anything aboutYun (or Yang) making them S-tier.
I frankly think capcom is mae dup by a bunch of morons. Why the hell spend a lot of money developing characters that few peope are going to use because they were made PURPOSEDLY weak?
That doesnt make any sense and if you made i pool with the community i would bet the great majority would vote for a balanced cast instead of overpowered characters.
About the twins, they are overpowered but they are balanced in the sense that they are not easy to play with, so we wont be seeing many in the internet, but what irritates more about ae was the stupid unecessary overall balance, nerfs should be only use as last measure with overpowered characters.
Characters like Adon, Guile, Rose, Gouken, El Furte, Vega and others are already flawed in their designs and dont need any nerfs. Just because some people didnt liked Rose ultra 2 as a defensive tool, Guile turtling shenaningans, Adon fast wake up and those other characters peculiarities it doesnt make it right just to scrap it and give it nothing to those chars in return.
This version of the game is great! It's fun beating down the twins.
For the people saying Yun is much stronger than Yang, what are you basing this on? Daigo? He won Evo with Ryu! In Tougeki tournaments, more Yangs have qualified than Yuns.
Caruga: Why are you posting about AE? You don't even have this game! Hell, you don't even have Super! Go back to vanilla you cheap a## :). lol.
I mean i am an adon player and I DO play Yang and to be honest i have yang at 5000 bp and he is quite hard to me to play.... mainly do to the fact alot of his moves are not safe at all....
yun v yang is so hard due to the rush punch but it is easy to punish .... people just need to learn the match up also people are so used to just holding down back alllllllll the friggin time so im sure this is different to you
quit turtling quit crying get used to it or quit the friggin game I mean really crying isnt going to fix anything you bought it learn to get around it
practice we have been used to fighting the same turtling ryu and scrubs...
this is our real test i mean obviously if you are just now complaining about the twins you have NO CLUE about OP and you OBVIOUSLY were not around in the 3rd strike times.
in other words.....
go with the flow or stay free
@Xunin you might not have said it, but others have in various other EH posts about AE.
I understand the concerns people have regarding balance, I really do, I am just not sure I want to jump on the "Twins Are OP"-bandwagon just yet. Like many of us, I have only been playing AE since the console release.
Daigo won at Revelations with Yun, that is true, but he would have a solid chance with any other character as well, seeing as how he beat everyone with Ryu (no toptier character) at last year's EVO. The guy is considered the best SF player in the world, I am not surprised he is beasting with Yun.
Hear my argument everyone and post your opinions.
I think Capcom did make a bad decision by intentionally making some characters, Yun and Yang, more powerful than the rest of the cast. I think with Vanilla SF4 that approach was good though. Why? Well, because, yes, we needed characters right from the get-go to be able to impress and shock, and most importantly being picked up by tournament players like Daigo, Mago, and Justin who kept winning tourney after tourney with these characters (ie. Ryu, Sagat, Rufus). This made the game healthy as it did indeed made us want to play like these guys and therefore be warriors like them. It also made the game "pop" and did attract many old and new gamers.
In Super SF4, the balancing was more dominant. A couple of characters like Feilong, Honda and Guile had buffs that made them stronger than the rest of the cast, but only be a little. So what was outcome? Well, we saw new superstars like GamerBee, Luffy, Vangief, Sako, etc and we also saw Mago make the change to Feilong and we also started seeing Daigo losing in a few tournies and matches online. I think this made the game very healthy. The hype was everywhere. But somehow, newbies slowly started losing interest in this game as it was actually hard to win with any character with no skill and there was no Godlike character like Vanilla Sagat, or an easy to use character like Vanilla Ryu anymore to get them the occasional win. So what did Capcom decide to do for the third and final iteration of SF4?--- Intentionally adding two overpowering characters once again as well as making Fei S-tier.
But the result was bad. In Japan the game lost interest, some complained that Daigo was just too good with Yun and therefore stopped playing the game whenever he showed up. In tournaments we do end up seeing the twins more and more as the finals approach and also witnessing some superstars like Infiltration, Wolfkrone, Latiff, Laugh all being EASILY being defeated by Fei or Yun. It seems we are goung start seeing some of these guys also picking up the Twins if they want to win major tournies. This make the community very unhealthy. Ultimately I believe Capcom should have realized that most players who end up playing Arcade Edition are hardcore gamers who want nothing but the most balanced game out there. Gtg. But hopefully point made. thanks for your time.
I really wonder why they removed Championship Mode. Is there anyone out there who knows the reason? No one plays Tournament or Team battle.
Championship was great. You had to play a few games against people of your own skill to get points and climb up to G1 or even higher. I really mis those days.
Who in their IDIOTIC right minds would think inbalance would be funner than a balanced game. Capcom just fcked up rushing the twins and AE out. They didn't put the effort into even acting like they tried to balance it and it shows. Now instead of manning up and admitting it they're taking the pssy way out and saying "this makes it more fun"
@12
"let's be honest here, when we talk about the twins we're really just talking about," DAIGO!
I still have 100% win rate against both twins! Not one single loss!
In fact, I've found ONI to be more of a challenge! Could his Ultra1 possibly be better lol!
Guys, no matter what they say, it all comes down to the player.
Conversation No. 1 between Daigo & Capcom JP, before AE release:
- Capcom JP: Ok Daigo, we want you to win the next EVO tournament and every tourney in America and round the world.
- Daigo: sure, I will do my best
- Capcom JP: Daigo, you "MUST" win every single tournament, this time is not for you, it's for your country, It's for Japan !!
- Daigo: Ok, but right now Americans are so close
- Capcom JP: Don't worry, for the next update we will include four more characters, remember to choose Yun
- Daigo: Yun?
- Capcom JP: Yes, Yun ! we are making him so broken and cheap so it's virtually impossible to lose with him
- Daigo: ok but what about Evil Ryu?
- Capcom JP: , forget it ! just do what we say and pick Yun !!
End
@68
All being defeated by Yun and Fei?
Ok. That wasn't Daigo and Mago right?!? It's a BIG surprise that the two best PLAYERS in the world finished 1st and 2nd.
If I'm not mistaken, J.Wong and Marn were playing Yun and Yang at CEO! But the better PLAYER prevailed.
Quick, nerf Akuma! He's too strong!
SFIV is a great game, but some characters are far from balanced. Im the type to work with the cards that are dealt to me when it comes to my mains,and I for one know that Vega is a very broken/weak character. And to nerf some of his regular doesnt help. But whatever, it makes each match I play and win even better.
This thread is great.
If Yun and Yang are so overpowered, how come 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at CEO were akuma, sim, honda???
It's always whatever character Daigo picks that all the scrubs cry about. I remember reading on here about how Ryu was too overpowered, and all he did was "spam" fireballs. Now it's yun is too strong, etc...
Daigo wins at SF. That is a fact. He places top 8 99.99999% of the time. He would place top 8 even if he used a crap character.
How does anyone know that capcom intentionally made Yun, Yang, and Fei the only strong characters? How do you know that other characters arent strong?
In super the real top tiers were Cammy, Guile, Akuma, Fei, Rog; NOT chun li, bison, etc... Those tier lists add numbers in a way that isn't representative of overall effectiveness. None of these characters won any tournaments by US players. Vanilla Sagat NEVER won a US tournament. Has a US player ever won with akuma?
You know why? Because the best US player is J.Wong and he wins with whoever he chooses regardless of tiers. He won with Makoto! Daigo could win with anyone in the US he just enjoys playing Yun. The same goes for Mago.
my two cents:
i feel yun (not really yang) is different from vanilla sagat because sagat just had more options and damage. other than that, he was a slow mofo. yun on the other hand, has hundreds of safe moves, easy fadc into ultra, reversal, dive kick, mixups, genei jin, etc. You cant even compare.
BUT, ive only lost to twins that were inherently good players; i never lost online to a scrubby yun, and even then, i didnt feel THAT overwhelmed by the yun player. so yeah im just gonna work hard to whoop his ass, its just that my character's weakness is wakeup pressure :( lol
I am really afraid that this game is gonna die and we are just gonna play SFxT instead. Free monies! Capcom are so sneaky.
heres a humorous gif i made that resembles wolverine's dive kick gif: http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/2...
@ 75
Yun being gdlk is not a shock nor a surprise when you see what he was doing in SF3:3S
but it does beg the question as to why his juggle moves are so good. He's just like Rufus and his weird juggle properties.
@ NerfGuile
This list says enough:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/ju...
And Ono himself said that there are characters in AE who are purposely made strong.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/fe...
I dont care if yun is broken but damn the same character online over and over?
all characters have potential but all people just go for those powerfull characters, and this game really need a balance cuz the last tourney I saw was the hell boring, and online is worst -_- if they balance those top character we will see a lot more of variety cuz people dont use yun cuz they like hes hair style...
Well here's my two cents. Never played 3rd strike or any SF3 for that matter so i don't have much experience with the twins. But I feel like all this controversy is about them, and no body is really complaining about super strong Evil Ryu and Eviler Akuma lol. So they must be doing something right.
Online wise, I'm fairly certain most of the people initially choosing Yun now will not be using Yun 4-6 months from now. Kind of like when Super first came out, we were bumrushed by all the new characters and then...everyone just went back to their vanilla mains. Give it time for online or just keep getting points, you'll fight the better plays higher up who most likely don't use the twins.
Thing is America arcade scene isn't the best so Yun players are far an in between I mean weren't two Yuns from Cali and the one who placed third was from Tecas (oh yeah) as compared to Japan where they aren't very far apart I mean the top two Yuns play each other FFS.
Still like I said above fix the meter and active frames of the palm and the ex lunge and the game should be fine.
@Samurai
Please STOP looking at lists and STOP listening to what the pros are saying.
God gave you your own brain to use. You are allowed to come up with your own opinions!
I mean seriously. What is your personal experience? You sound like Yun bent you over and raped you in an alley.
The pros? Like JW and Marn? Two of the TOP United States players! Using Yun and Yang got bodied!
Your like a puppy dog, running in the direction you were pointed. You read a few interviews, and they made up your mind for you.
Ono blows at SF, and SKill is winning what majors?
The developer blogs always tell you what they intended. How the character should be played. How many times has the community cracked that open! How many times has player skill changed a tier list!
I love AE. I've used basically all of Cody's normals beat Yun's dive kicks. Even his crouching forward, which I didn't even know have anti-air normals. Give the game some time to breathe; the FGC were on the verge of balancing Sentinel in MvC3 just by figuring him out before the health nerf finished him off. People are already realising how much expert spacing is needed to make Yun's dive kick safe, and I don't really think his super's as good as people say it is. Very scale-heavy -- kinda difficult to set it up practically and getting anything more from it than your average super combo. Better off using the meter on EX Lunge, which is genuinely cheap. That and the active frames of the palms -- sometimes after an untech. knockdown it looks like a mistimed whiff but you can't punish it cause the hands go back but the hitbox stays there for ages. It's just Daigo that's OP.
@ Aluppoj
I have an own opinion, but facts are facts. It's not a coincidence that so many top players dropped their main and switched to Fei or the twins. Japanese arcade is all about the twins.
I don't have much trouble online against the twins at the moment, I can handle them with Balrog. But I'm furious about the fact that they nerfed Balrog. He doesn't feel good anymore.
Nerfing almost the whole cast and putting characters in the game that are purposely made too strong doesn't make any sense.
People love to whine and complain about certain characters being too powerful or too weak. You can take any of those characters and go to a tournament and wipe the whole competition out, if you're willing to put in the effort. Just because some characters have better tools than others, it doesn't mean all players know how to use them correctly.
I always say this to people: The character is only as strong as the person holding the controller.
because seeing yun yang and fei in all the top tens of all the tournaments is new and exciting....lol.....FAIL
Meant to say Texas in my post ha. See deal is he is OP not broken major difference if people bitch about dive kicks we had a number of characters before that so yeah. Also like I said above most didn't practice with them enough the only possible one would be Marn but he has been having some personal issues and Wong is always playing a bunch of other games. As compared to Japan where we know they at least get a healthy dose of AE in the arcades. We all knew Daigo was going to take the mirror since he does practice with the #2 Yun in Japan and they are more or so even.
I know it comes of as an excuse but look at it from this perspective arcade scene, time, area.
#68 (EletricBlanka) This was the first large post that I have read in Eventhubs... and I totally agree.
From a Honda player's point of view, I think Super is very well balanced. I'm sure Honda was strong in Super, but far from being "unbeatable". Good Ryus, Sagats, Guiles can shut him down entirely. But, even in this matchups, Honda can have some good wins. And I think that something like this is true for almost all other chars/matchups.
About AE... I don't know... some chars got some good buffs, and others, like Honda, got some important nerfs... Capcom saying that some chars are stronger, to me, is not a good thing...
Well, I think that every player that are loyal to their mains since SF4/SSF4, instead of going to the "Dark Side of Yun/Yang", should take advantage of this moment, in which there are several "Yuns/Yangs" newbies all over PSN/Live deserving some lessons.
I have been playing AE since day one, and quite frankly, I expected to be beaten badly by the twins. One week later, I have not experienced yet a single Yun or Yang player that offered any challenge.
I have played guys with a higher rank on XBOX Live, and my main is not considered top tier at all (he is B+ tier in this site's lists, I think).
Perhaps things will change as people learn how to use them effectively, or they are too difficult to learn for the vast majority and a huge amount of my matches with the twins will relatively easy to handle.
Let's see how things evolve...
You know, by now I thought people would've known that Capcom fighting games will always have powerful, easy to use characters and weak characters. Also that by design they will never make a fighting game to be balanced (in the true meaning of the word).
the only reason yun and yang is OP and easy to win with is cause capcom wants to make sales of sf3 online. twins could never be better than shadaloo, guile ect..
@96
well i'm just saying, doesn't that mean anything. daigo didn't see potential in sagat maybe? but he clearly sees it in yun
like, i think it's significant that daigo didn't drop ryu for sagat but dropped ryu for yun
and mago has never won a major with sagat (as far as i know, thought i could be wrong)
I know it's not popular opinion... But all characters being equal strength and skill = lame epic fail!
Not all people are equal, Not all fighters are equal.
It's taking a character and making them the best! That's what the battle is about! That's why we have HYPE moments! When the skilled underdog makes a huge comeback and wins!
I'm a beast at SF, but last night I lost a ranked fight to a skilled HAKAN!
This is SF! It's the same as it's always been! Some strong, some weak! That's why we're here talking about SF and not Fight Night Round 3!
Practice, overcome, achieve!
CVS3 definitely needs to happen more than sf/tekken games coming out. Just hope soundtrack is as good with classics in there and gameplay is just as fun as CVS2.
@107 Mago won the first Godsgarden with Sagat. Beat all including Daigo.
If you're going to make it unbalanced, don't do it on the last iteration of the SF franchise. Sure you want the new characters to be good but you don't want to throw away all the work you did on the other 3O+ characters right?
Think of how approachable you want games like SFIV to be to newcomers, who in Super, weren't intimated by talk of top tier characters because it was so balanced.
If you wanted to spice things up then make SF x Tekken overpowered and crazy so it'll be more exciting and then tune things up - don't ever start balanced and go for unbalanced though in any game.
@100 Rvo2099, thanks for the inputs. Indeed, right now Blanka is still good to use and most Yun/Yangs are easy matchups for Blanka. However, who knows if this will hold true few months from now when the dedicated Yun/Yang players really learn the matchup.
"Balance = more playable characters
A wider variety of characters being seen in tournament play = a more exciting game"
How can it be exciting if all you see are top tier characters in the final?! This is eventually what's going to happen in tournies.
Whoever this "someone" is in Capcom needs to be fired...
@118
Ok, that's how it is now. Capcom made the game right? Not you, not me.
So if they intended the twins to be strong, that's how they are supposed to be. End of story. Just deal with it.
Maybe a 7'4" Muay Tai master should have some advantages over a 16 year old girl! Does that mean she can't win? No!
Learn your match ups and practice.
I also enjoy hearing people say Sagat, Ryu, Yun, Fei, in reference to OP characters of past and present. Then proceed to use Daigo and Mago as an example lol.
You see a pattern here? These players MAKE the TOP TIER!
Why isn't Alex Valle, Starnab or Inthul dominating now? Why? Because they are NOT DAIGO OR MAGO!
They win regardless. The characters you all complain about have ONLY dominated tournaments in the hands of the BEST players in the world!
Ever see Daigo play Guy? Or Guile? The player makes the character. Not the other way around.
@121
I partially agree with you, but this is the "egg-chicken" problem...
Are these chars top tier because these players use them or do these players use them because they are top tiers?
Daigo used Guile and even Guy in some demo events but rarely in real torneys. I think this indicates something too...
@123
Yes, but a good counter point would be:
J.Wong, Marn, Starnab, Sanford, Alex Valle. All pros, all using the same characters. Are they multiple time Evo winners? How about God's Garden? No? Well then.
I think it's safe to say that Daigo and Mago are the reason these characters dominate.
Yun/Yang/Rush down characters are only OP in any sense when a skilled player is using them (especially people who don't drop combos, say Daigo or Mago). Online, where players can't even FADC into Ryu's ultra, not so much.
It doesn't mean Yun isn't strong there as well, but he's no where close to OP. The higher the skill of an opponent, the closer he gets to being OP. This is not limited to the twins, it's just more accessible because of their numerous options.
Super was a turtle fest and it was a snore. I bet that's what he means by saying they wanted AE to be fun, not perfectly balanced.
Lets look at Modern Warfare 2, people say that game is very imbalanced. But it's a blast to play if you got a good party with you. Black-Ops supposed is perfect in terms of balance/support, but it's slow paced and filled with ghost users who like to sit back.
Balance != Fun automatically. More importantly, tournament players are showing you can still win if you know the match-up very well. How else did Mike Ross with E. Honda wipe the floor with almost everyone (and Honda was the most heavily nerfed of any character)?
@Aluppoj
I agree with you in the part about "learn your matchups and improve yourself". This is very true. I think the same.
And, about Daigo using Guile in Canada Cup (sorry, but was it SSF4, right?), what about all the buffs did Guile have in Super? See? He used Guile because he had some buffs, and not the other way. (Sorry if this was not SSF4, then my argument is totally failed... :P )
About Alpha or SF2, I don't know their tier lists... :P
Theirs nothing wrong with YUn and yang in third strike he hardly even used mostly yun.
In Tournaments for third strike they usually have these kind of teams
1.Makoto
2.Ken
3.Yun
1.Yun
2.Chun-li
3.Ken
Most likely yun wasn't even the strongest in that game. he was probaly like A++ till super street fighter iv which made him S.
i would say either ken or chun-li were over powered in third strike.
Makoto she a very good character to use in third strike. and i know some people are trying to revive so more people play as Makoto in super street fighter iv
Well, Daigo used Ryu because Ryu in Super was a Swiss Army Knife!
- He could ZONE some Characters easily (But there were better Zoning Characters as GUILE for example).
- He could rushdown some Characters easily (But there were better Characters as CAMMY for example).
- He could do good DAMAGE easily to some Characters (But there were more damaging Characters like C.VIPER or HONDA for example).
- He could play a good DEFENSIVE GAME and turtle some Characters (But there were better turtlers around like BALROG or CHUN LI for example).
Now with Yun...
You almost have all points combined and a better version except he is not a fireball character. That's why Daigo fcuking plays Yun.
Fei Long is just super good! Sure, you gotta know what you're doing with him.
But to be honest, I rather lose to a good Sakura than to a bad Fei Long. Fei Long is just too safe and just too much of a wall to fight against. His Focus Attack weakness is irrelevant because he has one of the best Focus Attacks in the game himself! Combined with relatively good dashes.
In AE Fei Long is even worse. I'm not too worried about the Twins, they have good tools and sh!t, but once they're knocked down, they have trouble getting you off. Fei Long has no problem getting you off of him.
I say screw capcom games and all their broken Sentinels, Yuns, and megafagturtlers (fagats, gayuiles, and especially sakura) and just play Namco games. If Soul Calibur 4 had the perfected online play sf4 had, i wouldn't be playing this. Since Soul Calibur 5's already in the works, I'm sure things will be different though.
At this point we should all concentrate on our characters and leveling up our game Japan has gotten farther from us and we have little time to complain especially if we want to put a good showing at EVO.
@Aluppoj I wish more people had sens like you. People never used to complain like this.
@SAMURAI didn't Justin Wong win a major with Dan? I think it was against Air at Canada Cup.
I love reading the comments, good stuff, people.
However, im going to have to agree with the half of the world who wants balance over "boredom"
as someone stated before, nerfing almost everyone then putting to good characters in the game isnt smart.
And yes I do belive that yun and yang (mostly yun) are strong characters, not IMPOSSIBLE characters, but they definatly have the tools to dominate 90-95% of the cast with ease.
Look at it this way, its my philosophy (cant spell) of pro players
most of the best pro players that want to win will automaticlly go twords one of 2 characters
a character that fits their style and dominates other characteres, or a character that is straight outright cheap.
Pro players KNOW who the good characters are, they play over and over and over again, they have tested most of the cast just to see what the changes are for each character. The japanese have had the game for quite some time now and im sure its not a coincedence (cant spell) that yun is up there so many times in japanese arecades
Yea you are right, here in AMERICA where many people havent been able to play the game for as long, they did get blown up at CEO....but lets look at trends here, if yuns start to dominate more people are going to start maining yun, because pro players play to get paid, not to hope they can win a tournememt with Dan....
There is a point of realizm that needs to be realized, and the point is that the damn game got broken....
good normals,dive kicks ,good supers ,low healt, safe full screen punch good dragon punch very hard to ounish properly
i just complain about his throw...i think they have too many tools like seth
maybe a little less health
chars like guile,rog,ryu,honda,sim,abel etc. nerfs were very much needed. honda and sim still had vanilla dmg,guile gained massive meter just from spamming booms all day,ryu with braindead cr.fwd and run like a b!tch tatsu,rog hitting crouchers with st.jab etc.
but chars like vega,el fuerte,blanka I can't understand they're already ass enough as it is.
btw free u2 invinciblity rose nerf was also justified. sorry but free wake up ultra that even if an active attack is already inside to hit goes thru and gets u hit instead? too free,where's the negative?now u need to use ur brain when using it.
@ uai4something and og
Bollocks. Rose u2 was one of the few things she got going. She doesnt have a reversal, she doesnt have a overhead, she has a crap focus attack. All she got is an ok super ( that also got nerfed) good pokes and good throw range. Her u2 was a good reversal, but it always did crap damage. Now u2 is completely useless.If they absolutely HAD to nerf it, a thing that they didnt had to, they should tone the damage even lower not take the one thing it is good for.
And Rose is MADE UP to play defensively, what you want her to do? Okizeme you like Akuma or El Furte?
I dont understand this dislike of some players toward defensive characters, goddamn the game should be a mix of both, offensive and deffensive characters, and some people like me HATE TO PLAY OFFENSIVE CHARACTERS.
And defensive characters have a different kind of difficult in playing them, take Guile for example, if you dont have a good sense of space and distance you wont be able to throw sonic booms and keep the other player out.Again Guile nerfs were uncessary, he wasnt OP in any way and once he is down on health is difficult for him to gain the lead again.And his meter gaining nerf is bollocks when you think that Yun can fill up his bar by spamming palm across the screen.
But i see that this game was balanced for those kind of morons that think a game is fun when it is only a rushfest.
YAY DIVE KICK DIVE KICK DIVE KICK F*CK DEFENSE I WILL DIVE KICK UNTIL I CAN LAND A COMBO THEN DIVE KICK SOME MORE
So fun *_*
Sorry fellas there are some that like to turtle, so just because you cant crack their defenses open doesnt mean those chars should be nerfed.The game should be fun for both turtles and braindead rushers.
SSfiv was great. Ae is a little worse, but it is better than i thought it would be.(and still should be improved)
yea cuz writing my name the way u saw it was so hard? but i digress, braindead rushers? in a game where u can mash jab/short,grab,dp,super,ultra? u just destroyed any credibility u might have had in ur comment.
this game has been a turtlefest since the beginning and still kinda is now.Guiles spacing is braindead.jab sb,cr.mk,backfist and cr.fp...such rocket science.he gained meter faster than the damn shotos cuz of how fast he can throw booms and how much u got for each one.only thing i'll say is the u2 dmg nerf was unnecessary, the rest not so much.
roses ultra 2 was a FREE wake up with instant recovery (due to excessive invincibility combined with hitting upon activation) that has ZERO negatives with high dmg potential in combos.Only scrubs says rose only has u2.last I checked she still has one of the best AA ultras in the game.but no,most rose players sack rode that ultras free wake up and position reset it gave (that ultra destroyed offensive momentum) and want to cry foul now that they can't anymore? cry me a river, does u1 have aids? no...USE IT!oh and last I checked ex soul spiral has enough invincibility to be used as a reversal.just don't be a scrub and make sure u have 2 extra bars for the cancel.
"yay dive kick til I can combo then dive kick some more"? really? its a lot better than "hadonic boom hadoken sonic boomken sonic boom...*80 secs later* zzz" or "tiger,tiger,tiger knee/uppercut" for the record most ppls standing jab can beat dive kicks clean.
"just cuz we can't crack ur def"? the damn engine is practically BUILT AROUND ur style of fighting!since vanilla, being offensive was often "rewarded" with a mashed jab,grab,dp etc.so any1 on the offensive needed to have perfect execution and the foresight to know when to apply pressure and when to back off.then u give chars like ryu and guile fast recovery on their projectiles and getting in becomes even more of a chore while u turtles just sit back and spam.ur style of fighting will always be effective in this game,but now this is the 1st time ppl are being somewhat rewarded for being intelligently offensive. u scrubs need to seriously stop try to defend the braindead tactics u used to use with ur chars and just learn how to actually think while playing.
From Ryan Hart's blog regarding Daigo and Yun in Japan arcades:
"The other thing I didn’t like today was the session between Daigo and Kazunoko. Today's session wasn't balanced like usual with like Daigo winning two or so extra games overall. Today was totally one sided with Kazunoko totally dominating Daigo.
I mean normally it would be quite enlightening or inspirational to see someone of Daigo's level losing like that and getting broken down in a clever way but this time it was different. Once a player reaches a certain level with Yun it just seems like you can't do much in the mirror once pressure is applied. I watched all the games from Daigo's machine and I could see him trying so many different things but he just couldn't do anything. In some matches he just couldn't get off the starting block. He was just rushed down in a way that really didn't require that much from Kazunoko but yet stopped Daigo from being able to do anything. I just think it's far too easy to play in a really effective way now.
In all honesty tonight is the first time I've not enjoyed the game, and it's just from watching as well. It's a shame because I actually did ok but it's not because of my performance, it's because today I really saw that Yun is too much. Even Daigo as good as he is with Yun couldn't do a thing once the other guy got control of the round (which usually happened in the first five seconds).
I think in this game it's too hard to escape Yun's pressure without taking a really stupid risk and I don't think that means the opponent is bad and deserves to be punished hard for it."
Yes, it's true. Even 'the beast' can go on losing streaks if he is unlucky and gets hit first by a pro Yun playing at Daigo's level. Once you're hit the mixup/pressure game will ensure the odds are highly stacked against you in terms of guessing correctly and breaking out.
Trying to judge Yun's imbalance based on 1 week of AE being out in NA is ridiculous. Look to Japan if you want the answers - Yun dominates the arcade ranking charts, he dominates SBO and any major Japanese tourney, etc. Look at any major Japanese 3v3 AE tourney - almost every single team has a Yun on it, certainly every team in the top 8.
Give up - Yun is grossly overpowered and Capcom is ridiculous for destroying their own games balance and trying to claim 'it's ok'.
@152 Well said! Now lets hope they release another balance patch and get their act together
#152
What tournaments are you talking about? Because Yun is popular doesn't mean he is "grossly overpowered". You are saying every team in the top 8 of every AE tournament in Japan has a Yun on it? I call BS, lol. Where do you guys dream poop like this up?
Yun doesn't dominate the arcade charts. Daigo does. If you actually took the time to understand what you were looking out, you would see that there are a lot of other characters with players that have very high BP. For instance, look at Ken. Just because a character is popular doesn't make them broken.
You're obviously just searching for an excuse to lose...I mean it wasn't the fact that you were outplayed it was the character choice...sure...whine more.
Most of the comments here are requests for balance patches are hoping the game gets balanced ASAP! ROFL. Wtf are you guys talking about? Are you really losing to Yang and Yun that much? I doubt it. Just another reason to cry.
LOL. Look at NSB, for starters, kid. You don't know the first thing about the Japanese arcade or tournament scene. Solid examples of Daigo going on a losing streak vs a pro Yun, and you keep ranting about Daigo being 'duh best!' like a broken record. Go away troll child.
5 vs. 5 Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition team results
1st — Team Topanga
Daigo Umehara (Yun)
Mago (Fei Long)
Tokido (Akuma)
Bonchan (Sagat)
Nyanshi (Sagat)
2nd — Team Hell Misawa Japan
Shiro (Makoto)
Ikarioyaji (Yang)
Yoshiwo (Guile)
Hanamaruki (Sagat)
Syungoku (Dictator)
3rd tied — Team Allied Forces
Acqua (Yang)
Magical Girl Zangitan (Zangief)
AC Revenger (Abel)
Kuroken (Dudley)
TUC (Dictator)
3rd tied — Team Unknown
Kyabetsu (C. Viper)
Fudo (Fei Long)
Itabashi (Zangief)
Nekojita (Abel)
Spanky (Blanka)
The results above are from the Topanga Charity Event Tournament posted here on EH. Now what I see is exactly one team with Yun, the other teams don't have him at all, although two have Yang. Which means that not ALL teams have a Yun in them, just because you saw one stream where that seemed to be the case.
You know what, all the Yun = OP whiners, just keep telling yourself that you lost because of that. In the meantime, I will be looking into ways and strategies to deal with him. If I lose, so be it, back to the drawing board. I lose some points, but if I'm lucky, I learn a thing or two.
Catalyst should have a poll like feature in this site so we can see what the major consensus is, "To Nerf or Not To Nerf."
Hopefully Capcom will also notice it.
It's not "omg he's OP cuz he"s winning tournies!!" It's "on paper, before anyone is even playing, this character has far more advantages than the other 30+ characters we just ruthlessley nerfed"
If they left the dumb nerfs out of the game, yun and yang and fei wouldn't be that bad. Or even if they gave everyone the fei treatment and just buffed characters that already performed well.
Hello, my user name here is phonetically how the guy at Taito Station screwed up my name when he was helping me pick a katakana version of my name for my SSFIVAE player card. I am an American who has recently moved to Japan, about 5 weeks ago. From all that I've seen, especially in Yokohama, it's a Yun and Zangief festival. Half of my matches have been against Yun players. I'm pretty sure I was watching a couple of the top Yuns at an older arcade in Yokohama btw. From what I saw no one wanted to play until the one guy left. No one wanted to play a Yun player. Yun is ruining this game. I was so excited when I arrived here, now I don't even want to play in the arcades. Especially for $1.25 a game (100 yen). By the way, I was going to sign up for Tougeki, but I don't know anyone here yet that is competitive, so I don't have a team-mate. Maybe you'll hear more about me soon. I main Dictator and I'm testing out Oni.
Balance = more playable characters
A wider variety of characters being seen in tournament play = a more exciting game