Hsien Chang managed to pick up Daigo's opinions on AE 2012 and its character balance. The summary of them is provided below.
Ryu, Cammy and Akuma are the best characters in the game.
The twins are now middle-tier.
Fei Long is high-tier.
Seth and Sagat are high-tier but have bad matchups.
Every character minus Chun-li, Dhalsim, Gouken, Rose, Gen, Dan, T-Hawk, Deejay, Guy, Hakan, Oni, and Evil-Ryu have the potential to be high-tier.
More interesting things about Daigo can be read at Hsien's blog. Be sure to leave your opinion about these characters below, such as the implication that certain characters cannot rise above the middle-tier.
Great, so ALL the characters I like using suck according to the beast.
I do find it interesting that Chun, Sim and Rose are on that list of suck though.
@1 If he didn't play a top tier character then he wouldn't be Daigo. Part of a players ability to be good is their ability to identify characters who have minimal weaknesses and capitalize on their strengths.
I still don't understand why Oni should be a down-tier character.
I totally agree with for example Deejay, Dan or Hakan to be down tier. But I see as much potential in Chun-Li, Oni or even Evil Ryu as in for example Guile or Zangief.
flat chested bltch high tier?yeah,and i am Mago.
she still like in AE,the fact that yun,yang were nerfed,changes jack shlt.
Who can say that a guy who changes characters constantly speaks the truth?
First Ryu's changes were pointless now he is the best.
There is no such thing as a tier list these guys truth of yesterday is debunked by their truth today, it ain't the Truth.
any character has the ability to be top tier.
chunli and rose r already considered high tier... for christ fckng sake their back-dash is already broken!
lately online there's a lot of scrubs playing a lame keep away fireball zone with akuma!
t.hawk players online... its neither they mash both dp n spd! *facepalm*
players online abuse deejay knee-shot so much!
oni, gen, gouken, guy, takes skills so im looking forward to this!
twins are definitely mid-tier now, fei long is still good!
dont even let me start with ryu!
Wow. Putting Chun-Li in the same tier as T. Hawk.
That's...suspicious.
Even if Ryu, Cammy, and Akuma are the "best" characters in the game, I can't see the separation between the tiers being that much of a difference. These are three characters who we all should know how to deal with by now.
#14 Pretty sure it gives characters who had bad match-ups against the twins (which is practically everyone) a chance now. Cammy included. But why am even bothering when it seems like you based her potential on how big her boobs are.
I'll wait for next year's EVO, I won't take his word for it, I lost all faith in him after he got whooped so badly in EVO, I'll faster believe Justin Wong's predictions and besides isn't it too early to start talking about tiers? I doubt the Japanese found all the undocumented changes already.
I have yet to touch AE but is Evil Ryu that much worse than Ryu? WTF LMAO so what was the point of adding him again? Is his story scences spectacular?
@19
"chunli and rose r already considered high tier... for christ sake their back-dash is already broken!"
its called an Option Select buddy. learn to use it lol. ive heard of people complaining about dive kicks and how they're "broken" but back dashes? hahaha whats next Rogs jabs are broken too? give me a break kiddo.
Wait, Chun-Li, Evil Ryu and Rose don't have the "potential to be high-tier", but Claw does? Or did Daigo just forget that Vega exists?
Where is Daigo getting the impression that Cammy is the best, i mean she is good but, sagat/seth/viper, all do much better at tourneys?? I haven't seen any good Cammy players do well in tournaments, kindevu, justin wong, both used her and got beat in the early stages, please explain someone???
The only reason I can see that Daigo put Chun on that list is because almost no one over there plays her since AE released. She was still really good in AE and is even better now. Anyway, to each his own. I've never really agreed with him when it comes to tiers anyway. I'm glad he is playing Ryu again.
Yes I love Elf but as annoying as the mirror match is I have only fought about 12 in 2 years of this game. I use the unfamiliarity to my advantage so I can not categorically state whether or not he is high tier. Also any thoughts on Adon and Guy ?
I agree totally with Ryu I feel he is essentially the best character in the game again. He can adapt to any situation, and is the hardest character to use due to him being more popular than any character by far even Ken. Cammy I disagree, Akuma I disagree, but both are high tier. As for Chun, and Rose OS, and zoning crushes everything atleast with Ryu. Even so they can be upper mid, and if they play tricks can be annoying. But they can't handle any situation. I'm sure Ryu will be top 3 if not 5 no less mark my words. Can't speak for Cammy n Gouki though.
I think maybe Daigo put Chun in the low section of it because he knows she is strong and wants no one to touch her so he can dominate tourneys again lol. I am just joking but whatever reasons he has... Just play who you love playing.. Not due to some pro's opinion of the game.
I think that M.Bison (Dictator) is the S-tier in this game (as with all the previous iterations actually) simply because he does not have a single "bad" match-up. My opinion though.
Oh well, at least I still have my tried-and-true M. Bison and Zangief.
Also, I know Oni has a garbage fireball, but does anybody know any other huge weaknesses he has? I'd just like to know why he was put in the lower tier.
Great now those people that complain about Ryu being overpowered in every article are gonna come back.
lol.
James Chen and Ultra David, don't even consider Cammy top 10. I always get a kick out of those guys theory fighting on streams. Now that Yun isn't in the game anymore, i wonder what James' new excuse is?
And where is the GDAMNMASTER? Wasn't he crying like the little baby he is when the change logs were release?
Disagree with almost the entire bottom list. Any character can be great in 2012.
(In before tiers don't matter and Daigo is a hack
...damn.)
@TheRedCyclone
well if you take away akuma's demon flip and and air fireball and replace it with garbage you get oni, well I think thats all for todays lesson :)lol
Daigo never said Zangief was top tier in AE. He just said Zangief was a viable counter to the top tier (i.e. the twins).
I personally think it's funny that a bunch of no name scrubs who never been to a tournament let alone won one are arguing with Daigo's opinion. Daigo, who has been in the FGC and considered practically number 1 longer than most of you have been gamers, and won more tourneys than most of you have video games. This is his life, his job (of many), he's sponsored to win.. who are you again? someone who plays online and complains about characters you can't beat so you cry on forums for nerfs? lol.
Get better, and stop worrying what Daigo says.
people who want tiers are people who don't want to get better, they just want easy wins. Pros figure characters out themselves. Scrubs want others to figure people out for them
#27
Yea Option Selects can sometimes blow up people like Chun and Rose even though they have the most derpy back-dashes in the game . But , people like Chun and Rose can also Option Select back-dash as well to make it even more safer by focus attack+throw~back-dash...
#44
lol :)
#59
In high level play , he is not that autopilot or easy to master . Even Fuudo said that he is a very difficult character to master.
He's going to be good , but the only successful ones will be the ones who put a lot of effort in him since almost everyone knows how to play against him .
Why people are getting mad at this? It's just his opinion lol.
Imo Evil Ryu and Chun-li are not low tier.People get mad at me please!
Just one question.
What makes Cammy top tier that she didnt have in AE?
And lol at dudley being above low-tier. He can win if he get's in but he has such bad matchup like zangief, guile,dhalsim, etc.
Remember, people, this is the opinion of someone who said Seth was low tier in AE, he might be the best player in this game, but that doesn't stop him to say stupid things. I agree on Akuma though, in my opinion he is the best in the game, number 1, just very hard to dominate all his aspects, but in my it's impossible too see how any other character compares to him, he just has everything he needs and even more, for the exchange of 50 points of life if you compare to chars like Gen, Chun and other with 900 life. People really think 850 is fair in a character like this? It's obvious he is too much.
I'm still sticking with Dudley though. Is it me, or is the ability to FADC out of a rose taunt pretty f*ckin' useless?
@60: My God, you're butthurt, aren't you?
You bitch about UltraDavid and Gems Chen for no reason other than you want to get a rise out of people, then start whining about me for no reason other than I get under your skin by disagreeing with you...
It's too early for tiers. I think we need to see a few more tournaments before we can see who the best characters are.
I feel Ryu has over taken Ken and Akuma as the best Shoto.
In general I think any character can be A tier in this version of the game. Rufus and Sakura are 2 of many characters in the game that can turn a 4-6 match into a 7-3 match up just by knocking them down or putting the opponent in the corner.
I don't the tiers are important anymore. Everyone who has been playing this game since 09 knows what to do by now. I respect Daigo, but at the end of the day words and theory fighting don't mean anything in tournament play.
From my experience, I do agree that Cammy is very strong and that she can be in the top 5. However, as for Ryu and Akuma, I'm not too sure about them 2 being the best characters in the game because in my opinion, Akuma is in the top 10 and Ryu is a mid-tier to high-mid tier. For Ryu, here's why: even though Ryu has improved, only very few players in the world can maximise Ryu's overall potential and Daigo is 1 of those players. Ryu at its best is definitely in the top 6 when you include those players. But, if you don't include those players, then Ryu is simply a mid-tier to high-mid tier for the rest of the world. Imo, AE 2012 has many characters that could be in the high tier.
honestly don't think this really matters...wait for tournament results in 2012 because thats what really matters because if SCR was any indication of how 2012 will go then i look forward to seeing different characters/players winning and not just 1 or 2 top tier characters.
I'm surprised Seth isn't top tier :/
Akuma has problems with Seth though (imo) since seth's u1 is back to the way it was. It stops jump ins, fire balls, air fireballs, mid ranged standing hard kick, demon flips, teleports etc. I reckon the seth matchup is even at start but when seth gets ultra 1 it's clearly in his favor.
#66
latif beaten by iperu doesnt mean fuertew is good,it means latif doesnt know the matchup,but he got his revenge on a first to 5 later.
in general its not the fact that daigo was giving general matchup thoughts that we can take them for fact.
people have to understand that our appreciation are biaised by our results.
mago consider guile high.
also those pro play only against other pro.they see the potential of the player not the character.
Example :if daigo plays against 100 cammy scrub,what in your opinion he might say?
now against 100 pro cammy?
the day people understand the illusionary meaning of tier ranking,the FGC will do a huge leap forward.........
Great, I started using Cammy two weeks ago. Guess I better prepare for the shîtstorm coming my way teling me I’m a tier-wh***.
#36
Whats wrong with Dudley? I think hes pretty good in Ae. Still have to wait for AE2012 on my Pc, but its defenetly not as high of a gap as Super Makoto to AE Makoto, if dudley is high tier now.
#19 Gouken requires skill? Hes one of the easiest characters to win with. I dont think i have actually seen a skilled gouken, under 3000pp. the only 2 characters that require less skill in mid level are Blanka and Dictator, Juri is pretty close too thou.
#87
Thats wrong, sure it will influence it, but if you understand the game to a certain degree a lot of things just become a theory. Tier rankings are theories. They see wich move beats wich, who has more health, more damage potential, better options, safer mixups, better hitboxes. And especially the japanese compare the strenght of moves to how safe they are, and add that up.
Fei long wasnt beeing considered strong because there was a good player, but because his normals are strong, his rekkas are the best footsie tool in the game, his chicken wing gets him out and in easily and pretty safe, and his DP has a good priority. and he has no real weakness either. Thats what made him top tier in AE, not Fuudo or Mago. Of course there sometimes has to be a Poongko or Uryo to actually show off the strenghts of their character cause you have to actually see and feel the strenght of a character through a good player to actuaslly be able to compare and make your theorie of that characters tier ranking.
@37 he didnt get any buffs (meaningful buffs mind u), he only moved up in tiers cuz fei and the twins got nerfed.
thanks for clarifying,i didnt see it from that perspective.
actually fei long for me is still garbage,maybe i didnt play agains particularily strong one.though i hate to play against guy.for me he looks like dhalsim,i mean i still dont get the range of his normals!!
chun is only strong because there is Y24 and pipi,levy and efute.
we will accept sh'es high tier when we will see her actually winning something outside of 3s.
for now we just play the damn game and have fun
Anyone can be top tier in this game
-BlankaBeast.
@89
completely agree.
Also, why are people calling M. Bison a skill-less scrub character? I'm being honest, I realize he's a good character, I just don't see how he's THAT good.
Wow a fair bit of characters are excluded from potentially being high tier according to Daigo although I guess everyone else is ok? I'm not surprised about rose, Dan, and Hakan being on the list though.
@48 and @55 it matters because
1. he was playing the character that everyone said was overpowered
2. he got beaten by not only poongko
3. a lot of money was on the line
4. he should have practice his match ups because he made careless mistakes
5.he got perfected by poongko
should I really go on?
yeah someone will now say "he's better than me" I'm sure he is but I don't think he can make a judgement like that and the problem is a lot of ppl will believe him, did he play the whole cast or just the three he claim are the best and watched the watch the rest? someone should ask him that.
#92 Gouken is so easy to win with. If you start you just give anyone that actually gets through the fireball parcourt a neutral jump mp or his counter move and start over with his fireball parcourt. and thats how most goukens obviously get through till around 2000pp, cause most of them are still doing that at that point. And i have yet to see a gouken below 3000pp that doesnt completely crumble once i shut down his fireball game with juri or Rose. Apparently, footsies are only required for Goukens over 3000. I was actually suprised to see the animations of most of his normals.
If Capcom would make Dudley's forward mk to have less start up frames (so it won't be so easy to get throw out of) and st. hk to have more block and hit stun, Dudley would be a good character (probably mid high tier). Regular SSFIV Dudley had more block stun with st. hk which allowed him to have more of a mixup game with st hk ---> duck under. In AE and AE 2012, his st hk block stun is less which allows opponents to just jab him out of his duck under or worst, punish with dp fadc ultra.
@#54 and @#56,
Yeah, you guys are right.. I totally forgot about guile, chun-li and thawk... those are easily his only bad match ups, and maybe to a lesser extent zangief... but not a lot of people use them, hence Bison is essentially one of the top 3 characters in my book.
oh and at #89.. I disagree with the bad honda match up for bison... Bison has the advantage on that one based on my experience playing against hondas online
#97 He has an easier time then a lot of other characters thou. I main Makoto and since both are up close chars im gonna compare those too: dudley is a lot less risky, has more options, and an easy 50/50 situation after his haymaker. His damage is not as good without but a little better with meter, his priority is decent enough and his jump in elbow is just nasty to anti air if you dont have a DP. Makotos stun and her mixups and resets are quite nasty thou but on mid level, i would say dudley is easier to be strong with, while on high level, makoto is harder to handel and control for your opponent. I can see that a little more priority on one or two moves, a little less recovery on another and he could easily be high tier.
DAIGO YUNOANSWERMYQUESTION!!! WHAT TIER ARE ROSE'S BOOBS GODDAMMIT! ARE THEY LOWER-TIER THAN VIPER'S UNIBOOB?!?!?!?
Damn, daigo is never going to be able to live down that top 4 finish, you'd think he never made it out of pools. The only player in SFIVS history to make top 8 all three evos in a row, winning two of them but no 3peat and all his credibility is out the window.
@101
your actually basing "how easy Gouken is" off of matches from online? and from worthless online points? can SF players get any stupider or is this just something shared from people who started with SF4?
and LOL at people STILL complaining about Bison. he was strong in Super but thats it. ever since then people have this stupid mentality of Bison being "god-tier." grow some you scrubs and learn to study match-ups. and if you still suck then pick Guile and beat Bison. if you still cant win, then Bison isnt strong, you absolutely SUCK!
Well "Kami" has spoken one of his Japanese monikers, before "The Beast" which means gOD. Lol I think I'll start calling him that from now on lol Daigo "Kami" Umehara.
#111 hmmm you sure are quite the exposer my friend. Yes im really stupid for talking about how easy gouken is to play by looking at people who arent professionaly playing the game.
Man next time i want to know if Skateboarding is easy, i ask frikkin Tony Hawk if hes having any problems with it. The word stupid sure wqas used by the right person. And to show off your superiour intelligence even more: The post that i was originally referring to was about how online scrubs abuse a lot of things, but at least Gouken requires skill. I dont know how i missunderstood "online scrubs" so much when it clearly means professional tournament players.
You are apperantly so smart that by reading my last post so carefully, you even know what i was reffering to without actually wasting time by reading what i was reffering to. Im glad we stupid people have someone like you... And i really hope you keep my praise in your heart and expose a lot of other people for their stupidity.
Why do some of you live in the fantasy that any character can be top-tier?
do people on the internet really consider top 4 at evo is bad placement?
#117 you disagreed at first and now you go as far as to say its silly withouth giving any argument in any post whatsoever? Well thank you for wasting my time. But please dont say anyone's argument is silly if you dont actually intend to refute their points or bring any argument at all. Thats just rude.
Funny that he says Seth and Sagat are high tier but have bad matchups, does that mean Ryu and Cammy doesn't have any? I would laugh hard at that.
I hope he does not start losing tho Dhalsim again since Ryu has no bad matchups in his opinion.
And it's funny he picked up Cammy and stopped so quickly since she is one of the 3 best characters.
@112 Aluppoj
Read my two previous comments again brah, before you go opening your uneducated mouth. In my second post I said "Bison is top 3 in MY book" (translation:IT'S SOLELY MY OPINION). I don't care if I'm a no name, it's still MY opinion.
In my third post I said "oh and at #89.. I disagree with the bad honda match up for bison... Bison has the advantage on that one based on my experience playing against hondas online"
You misquoted me.. So next time you open your ignorant mouth, or next time you type an ignorant comment.. READ CAREFULLY FIRST!
#124 Im not actually too sold for the opinion i wrote earlyer. I just dont understand the game that well. So if you got an argument, please share it. Or you could refute my point. Any of those? Just one would be fine.
Its not like you just disagreed, and after my arguments, just had nothing to say against it, but instead of just saying nothing, you insulted my opinion even further. That couldnt be true. So lets say 4 sentences maybe? Id even settle for 3.
Just show me that you dont go around insulting people opinions without even having an educated one yourself?
"Every character minus Guy has the potential to be high-tier."
-_____-
The Only real Tier-listing there was for SF4, was the Vanilla SF4. After that every other tier-listing (SSF4,SSF4AE,SSF4AE v.2012) went downhill.
Every pro, community had there own tier list.
So the tier listing doesn't matter to most of people, because they have they're own opinion.
@130
I've always thought Gouken to be better than most people give him credit for, but I never thought he was easy by any means.
He has no reliable reversals with huge penalties for guessing wrong. He has an offensive demon flip without a corresponding mix-up to go with it. He has one of the worst crouch techs in the game. He's designed as a defensive character without enough defensive ability to justify it, meaning anyone who isn't extremely on point will fall apart under any kind of consistent offense, even against non-offensive characters. There is absolutely nothing easy about the character on any level of skill in the game other than beginner.
Daigo's tier list is based on character matchups.
The best characters go even or do well against the majority of the cast with very few bad matchup. I'm not sure about the rest but he probably think Ryu does better against Dhalsim now and is a solid character against everyone as usual.
High tier go even or better against other high tiers and some of the lower tiers with some bad matchups. With Ryu, Cammy, Akuma, Fei Long, Sagat and Seth being the known high tier, any character that doesn't do well against at least 4 of these won't be high tier.
Middle tier go even or better against less than half of the high tier but most of the rest with some bad matchups especially against high tier. Can Chun Li, Rose or Gouken beat those 6 high tier often cause there will probably be a lot of really good player playing those?
Low tier go even or better against only a few of the high tier and less than half of the middle tier with a lot of bad matchups. Good luck with that.
Whether his list is true or overly opinionated will not stop my use of Chun or Juri. One persons word is not law. I say till the game has a little time to florish at the main tournaments and see if the list shall vary once other opinions are placed in the pot.
@142 Kazunoko just started using Seth in 2012 and did nothing special with him. The other players are just average, I'm talking about top players. Oh and everytime they have played against Wolfkrone/Latif it was made clear they know nothing about Viper. Stop dickriding.
@144 kazunoko may have just started playing seth but he still tears shlt up with him and is already probably top 3 seth in the world. I'm sure they know alot about viper but the character is so strong and random that even if u know the matchup she can still be tough. I mean latif/wolf have been beating ppl from all over the world. Im not dickriding, u are a hater.
I consider anyone Daigo to be using as high-tier even if it's a one-legged Fei Long.
I still main random select as my character though.