Oh please, oh please! Don't let Infiltration beat Wildcat, the way he beat Bullcat with Gouken.
Breaking News:
Skilled player (X) makes Under used character (X) look "Top Tier"!
In a related story:
Community still wheeps for Character (X), claiming he's still too low on the Tier List!
Lol!
Player skill > Preset Capcom tiers. In fact, Players (like infiltration) create the tier lists.
Such great videos. Should be inspirational to people who piss and moan that they cannot win because of the character they choose.
Next time you have a few minutes to type a complaint on the Internet, go practice some combos instead.
Give Oil Dive start up invincibility like an SRK. Boom. Top tier? No. Awesome and fair? Yes.
Although I'm quite fond of this version of Hakan. Faster start ups and pre-oiled. Yum.
#4
why people care so much about tier list?
just play the gamegod damn it!
@10
its you the retarded.
Tier lists are created under players of High Level equal skill.
so the average yun or scrubby rose does not count.
@10
Right. Not you. So never complain.
@6
No. It's aimed at the people that let other people decide "How Good" characters are for them!
People who would rather come to EH to complain about "how bad" character (X) is and beg for buffs, rather than getting practice and getting better.
@15
Yes, what you just said is right.
That also means, if a very high level player like Infiltration can even take Hakan online and beast everyone. This is simply because of two things:
1) Infiltration is extremely talented
2) Nobody has any real Hakan matchup knowledge
Now if a high level player takes Hakan or any other low tier character to a tournament, they'll get their asses handed to them. That's why I called you a retard and I stand by it. Tier lists exist and you can't deny that they are more or less accurate.
@17 While you are correct that tiers exist, you can't automatically say that any Hakan who entered a high-level tourney would get auto-wrecked. Nobody has even tried it yet. I actually think if infiltration brought Hakan to a tourney, he would do very well at least for the first couple until people learn how to play against him. Hakan has amazing potential as long as he is oiled, and having him pre-oiled takes alot of pressure off getting that started.
What i did see in many of these videos is people giving hakan a chance to sit at a distance and build meter while stacking oils. Thats a huge mistake. But at the same time, you have to be careful approaching a grappler, especially one with a move that can grab you out of backdash if you fall. Hakan has good tools, but the player needs to be able to make great reads when applying pressure, and he needs to be able to apply oil at every opportunity so he doesn't run out of oil in the middle of being rushed down.
@12
Invicibility on that would be cool of course, but definitely not necessary. Why does everyone think that a character needs to have a move with start-up invincible to be viable?!? The guy already has a freakin SPD. Between being able to block, jump, spd, or backdash on wakeup, you have something for all of your options. Is it as good as being able to use some bars and fadc out for free like ken? Maybe not. But very few characters can do that, and plenty are still viable.
looks like hakan is sick oiled up but becomes ass once it wears out, that is a godly character design, to constantly apply something to yourself to stay viable, why do they not make characters like this excluding the the visual appearance because imo hakan looks awful lol
@18
I need to spell it out for you? You don't sound like the type of player that would pioneer any New Technoligy. Based on your comments you sound like a sheep that does what your told.
You let other players tell you "Who's viable". Sad.
So your NOT the type of Person/Player that would have any impact on tier standings.
All hakan had going for him in these matches were lack of exp. they had noidea what they were doing against him.
@18
I do not find it sad that I let other players tell me who's viable. Do you find it sad that your teachers need to teach you about something rather than you figuring it out on your own? Don't be ridiculous. I do not have the kind of time to spend on the game as the pro gamers do, so give me a freaking break on what I take as viable and depending on what. Before making your lame claims at least back them up.
For example, about tier lists, Sagat was on top of the list in vanilla, and was considered by everyone to be overpowered and easily the best character in the game. Now why did we not see Sagat win EVO? Because for example Daigo knew the matchup incredibly well. That does mean that the players are more important than the characters.
Fine.
But imagine a theoretical match between Daigo's Ryu and Daigo's Hakan. A FT10. Who do you think is going to win? Now shut up.
These videos were fun to watch as I play Hakan. I also play Dhalsim and I can tell you that Sim vid was trash. I can't remember losing to anyone's Hakan online - even the ones that know how to use him well. It's not in Hakans favor, at all. Just reinforcing what someone said earlier, in a tourney people know weaknesses and why you don't see low tiers winning.
Both them low/mid tiers are fun but they won't win tournaments. I just like them because they both annoy people online :)
@37
Good point. Daigo defenitly wins a FT10 against Daigo? Lol, what?
No, really I get what your saying. But it still comes down to the PLAYER doesn't it!!!!
You have to say "Daigo vs Daigo" in a lame attempt to prove your point. Then you inadvertently further my point! Lol.
Now you can stfu.
As you can see from all my other comments, I never said player doesn't play a part. Otherwise we could just set CPU vs CPU and watch it all day.
The main reason those people lost to Hakan so badly is the lack of matchup knowledge. The other reason was that it was Infiltration who was playing Hakan. If I was there playing Hakan it would have been pathetic.
The most obvious way to see why tiers matter, especially matchups is this matchup right here: Seth vs Zangief.
The poor little f**k Zangief, can't do anything in this broken matchup. I think a couple of days ago, I saw someone's playing record against Kazunoko's Seth, which is great apparently, but regardless, he lost 17-1. Now even if that Zangief player was Vangief, that 17-1 wouldn't have become even close to even. That's all I want to say.
Oh and maybe you also know a little bit about the Guile vs Bison matchup too.
@40
Ok. I've never said that there aren't Unfavorable match ups in the game. I use Bison as a sub. I know Guile can be tough. I also know that if I'm more skilled than the Guile player I'll usually win!
If he beat me he probably deserved to. I'll try to improve.
Ryu/Dhalsim, Seth/Zangief, etc/etc.... In a game with 39 characters with 39 different fighting styles your going to get a few tough contrasts. If that's too much for you I'd suggest Fight Night or UFC where every character has the same tools.
Human skill still > Bad Match Ups.
I see your point of view. But Hakan isn't a new character. Sorry about their level of "Match Knowledge", but SF4/SSF4 isn't a new game. I'm sure they've faced a few Hakans.
So if a "Bad Character" does bad, he sucks.
If a "Bad Character" does well it's "Match Knowledge"?
Guess he can't win.
@44
She shot up the tier list because of AE's buffs, not because of Justin Wong using her. Heck, he stated time and time again whenever he used her that "she's the worst character in the game" at the time (in regular SSF4), but he still had fun playing as her regardless.
@45
Lol, you were definitely misunderstood. I do agree that much of those losses to Hakan above were lack of matchup knowledge, and infiltration just being a better player than them. He's playing online after all.
@44
I do agree with the notion that some characters are low on the tier list because they are undiscovered by high level players, but J Wong and Makoto is not at all an example. makoto didn't really budge on the tier list until all the buffs in AE. And Justin didn't really pick up Makoto per se. His go-to was always Rufus, and he switched him out just for particular matchups. If anything, Combofiend played more Makoto, and he didn't rely on her either.
I think people misunderstand what people mean when they say tiers matter and are important.
I.E. Lets say we were to clone Floe and one Floe is using Rufus and the other Floe is using Dan. Even though they have the same matchup knowledge, the same skill set and the same execution the Floe using Rufus is going to win that battle 9 out of 10 times because Rufus has better tools and its as simple as that.
You can argue that if Infiltration or any other gaming prodigy is using Hakan or whoever, that he or she is better than 7 out of 10 people but that proves nothing about tiers because tier applies to all things being equal.
Tiers exist and as much as people try to refute it, they exist. If I give a person a hammer and tell him to bang nails into a piece of wood and give another person a spoon and tell him to do the same exact thing. There is a possibility that the person using the spoon could use it better than the person using the hammer but if they possess the same knowledge about how to use the tool they are given the hammer is going to get the job done better. IMO.
@49
Granted, but a "Hammer and Spoon"? A bit drastic.
A hammer and spoon are tools used for completely different purposes. Fighters in Street Fighter are not!
A Nail gun vs a manual hammer/nail might be fair. One takes more work than the other... But they both get the job done!
Now if I take a roofer with 25 years experience and give him the manual hammer, odds are good he'll do better work than the new guy with the nail gun!
That's called experience. That's why Tier Lists are virtually meaningless. Because NO two people are the same!
Because you cannot "Clone Floe" as you say.
Me? I'll take the guy with 25 years of exp any day of the week. He can win with any tool.
@Aluppoj
I like you comments, but the called tier list isnt saying you cant win with hakan or dan, they say what character have more tools and who not, you say about the experience, but you arent still on point that the hammer have better tools than a Nail gun, thats the meaning of the tiers list, tier list is only who characters have better tools, you cant say dan and ryu are the same equal power, you can win with dan, but thats dont mean he have the same tools...
Just use the character you like, but keep in mind that if you pick dan or hakan be aware of you tools and limits
@50 Depends on the game Sent vs Roll in MVC2 feels like a hammer and a spoon to me LOL but I get your point and sure I can use your example.
First the real question concerning tiers is can a noob with a hammer do the job just as good as a noob with a nailgun OR can an expert with a hammer do the job just as good as an expert with a nailgun. Thats what tiers represent. Where tiers become a big factor is when you have an expert with a hammer vs an intermediate nail gun user. The intermediate nailgun user. Or even an expert nailgun user vs a intermediate hammer user. Odd are the nail gun user will win both times because his tool is better suited for the job. So to say tiers are virtually meaning less is to say the tool is virtually meaningless and we know that that is false.
Idk if they can clone sheep who knows what else they can clone ;-) lol but anyway I know you cant clone players my point is all things being equal if the result can be unequal then that is the definition of tiers but sometimes people get hung up on the word tier and not the definition. When you said "A hammer and spoon are tools used for completely different purposes" you may not have realized it but you made my point. Which is essentially that the tool is very important.
And your last sentence is false "Me? I'll take the guy with 25 years of exp any day of the week. He can win with any tool." He cant win with any tool he can only win with the hammer. If he could win with any tool that would mean he could win with a screwdriver and we know he cannot. The novice nailgun user is probably going to win that. In fact even if he uses a hammer depending on how big the job or how hard the wood is the novice nailgun user may still win that battle. A nail gun is super easy to use being a novice nail gun user I can attest to that lol
Wow, oiled Hakan can combo after a FA lvl1...? Big damage too...
@52
Touché. And well spoken. I realize you can't completely discount tier lists, but they are looked at by some players as the gospel.
I prefer the notion the the more skilled player will win out at the end of the day.
Furthermore, I have very little patients for people making it seem as though certain characters are nigh unplayable because of tier placement.
Meanwhile, creative players (like Infiltration) are showing what is truly possible every other day.
@54 I respect that and imo that is the type of attitude a true gamer should have. My statements dont negate your statement..."I prefer the notion the the more skilled player will win out at the end of the day." I agree 100% skill is also having the knowledge to know how to use a tool in the appropriate manner and thus the more skilled fighter at that moment will win. For the most part I think ssf4's balance is very good.
LOL, finally some peace in this website? \o/
People agreeing, how often do we see that?
Congratz to you guys :P
And yea, it's good that everyone learns something about that: tier lists aren't dogmas, but aren't false too ^^ tools matter, but skills matter as well, and two persons with different opinions can get something with the other person's opinion... Isn't it such a beautiful world? :)
Tiers in my opinion, are affected by how many options and situation options you have to get a win. Also you have to take into consideration how flexible are this options, example Hakan have none flexible situation option as i might call it, he need to be oiled to become oiled, the player needs to guess right and you can only link to ultra2. Ultra 1 is great as grapple, but it needs the oil to be effective.
I really hate fighting Hakans and Gens. They are rare online and so when I run into them once a month I have no idea whats going on. Then they start taunting thinking that they outplayed me. The only reason why they get wins is because most people don't know the match up and even if you go on places like srk theres still a lot of character forums that have little to no info on Hakan.
YOOOOOO ULLLLLLL