The eSports debate has been a hot topic in the community lately. There has been a lot of comments on both sides of the fence, talking about if the fighting game community should try and get more of their mainstream games involved with leagues like MLG, IPL, etc.Also, we've linked to past shows where PR Balrog and WolfKrone talked about eSports and the fighting game community on F^&* Slasher and Mike Ross and Gootecks also discussed the issue on Cross Counter Live. There's also another bit with Gootecks again on F^&* Slasher.
i'd be fine with mlg collaborations but i still dont like the term esports it just sounds gross and "wannabe"-ish. anyway, the bigger the better as long as its handled well.
While head-to-head gaming is a competition like Sports that we know of and that fighting game players do sweat.
It should not be considered a sport for two reasons. There is no heavy physical exertion nor is there serious risk of injury while performing.
Bowling and Golf both require proper amounts of strength to produce results.
E-Sports is vague and innaccurate.
I have no problem calling these events...
FGC - Fighting Game Competitions
"Some of the arguments in favor of this move have stated there would be more money and additional opportunities for gamers to earn a living playing fighting games"
I see this presented by some as if it is an argument in itself, but I don't see anyone explaining to me why this is inherently a good thing.
It would directly affect only a tiny, tiny minority of players in terms of letting them make more money off of a video game (and these are mostly the ones saying it's a good idea), but I've yet to hear any arguments why it's for the general good.
I'm not stating that I am for or against it, only that most of the arguments I am hearing it its favor come from those who stand to directly benefit. What makes it desirable for a broader audience? Would it really lead to more players or more events in which your typical player could or would want to be involved? What are the wider consequences if it is or is not successful? What do people think Valle means exactly when he warns that people might "forget where we come from?" I am curious to see people speak to these sorts of questions.
Evo has been sh!tting on on this kind of thing for years. In the vvv podcast they ever say its obvious Inkblot is just trying to protect his own interests. Evo doesn't give a sh!t about the FGC unless it's padding their wallets and benefiting them.
Inkblot says MLG needs to do A B and C to do fighting games and then he says they can't do A B and C cause they don't trust them to handle it. It's a no win situation and the losers are the players in the community.
He writes bs editorials on SRK saying how this is all right and fair to be sh!tting on our players. How anyone still supports this guy and the stuff he does is beyond me. He's shady as hell.
Evo and SRK been doing shady stuff for years that's why they call them the illuminati. This isn't new its just whats expected.
Wesker aint overpowered either right? Most people on SRK don't even think for themselves despite anyone with half a brain knowing better. The admins just spit out propaganda everyone accepts hand over fist.
LU|Alex Valle, has been invisible to me for a while! I don't mean that in the offensive way, I mean I just haven't seen his name floating around the news in so long.
Said like a real man, couldn't have worded it any other way.
Honestly, MLG wants more publicity, and the FGC has all of it right now. If MLG branched out to the FGC, but allowed them to handle their own events, what's there to be truly afraid of? Right now, the FGC is at optimal speed but still because of the community continues forward on full blast.
Frankly, MLG's biggest fear could be that FGC(which it already is) will be more viewed than any other of their events by an exponential value. As of late, I haven't even seen any MLG event which as much hype as any FGC event.
In all the chest pounding and strutting around acting like a bgi shot, not one, NOT ONE of any of these conversations has stopped to think what the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY of the FGC thinks about all this? Why is that? What does Daigo think? What does Momochi think? What does Fuudo think! Justin, PR Rog, Marn and Wolfkrone all sit there rubbing their hands like they're sitting down to dinner, if/when the FGC decides to join with bigger leagues a.k.a. MLG/IPL etc. NOT.SO.FAST! What makes these guys think they'll win the big bucks? If AE 2012 gets picked up by the big guns whose to say that Daigo, and co wont just come in and clean up? Then not only will we have lost a part of ourselves as a community but Justin and co with be back and square one. Arrogance and impatience are signs of the desperate. I'm with Valle and InkBlot on this one, "dont forget where you come from". If its worth having its worth doing right, and on the communties own terms. D:<
the only problem I see with MLG and the sorts is restrictions of the commentary. no swearing, no screaming etc. if they can work out somethingabout that, to give the cemmentators freedom, I don't see why it should not happen.
because hands down, they are just as important to hype then the actual match.
@11
If it encourages more and more Japanese players to come, why the hell not? To get better, you can't just be playing people on your level. Justin isn't afraid of any Japanese players, neither is Mike Ross, Latif, PR Balrog, Wolfkrone, etc.
How will the community have lost itself in this case? If anything, it's continuing to bridge the world-wide gap between the global community, and bringing everyone together, while also paying the big bucks to the winners. I'll tell you this, 2nd and 3rd place finishers at an MLG event are still taking home more than a lot of your top finishers in grass roots tournaments.
Also, Valle is pro-collaboration. Read his little section again. Inkblot is in a unique position, where he's terrified his tournament will be lessened, therefore he's trying to stir the pot and look out for HIMSELF.
Isn't this mainly down to Capcom and the MLG themselves anyway? If MLG want Street Fighter then who cares about what EVO organisers think of it?
@4
more money
= more players
= players that can make it their "job", train harder, visit more events
= giving it some kind of "serious" appealing to the outside world, thus recognition
= more competition. it's different playing 5$ money match or having a 10.000 price pool
i dont know how many people saw the recent interview, but James Chen gave one of the best arguments i've seen against an esports merger. First of all, MLG wouldn't be reliant on the fighting game community; but if the FGC joined, they would be reliant on MLG. If SF4 or whatever game MLG chose failed to meet expectations, it would be dropped without a thought.
The scene would crumble after this; as seen in the Tekken community when MLG dropped it, a lot of people just dont want to compete when the prizes drop from 5k to 500. If the FGC grows naturally, without MLG, it can learn to stand by
itself.
And i dont EVO just wants to protect its turf. majors have been popping up all over the place and EVO's only getting bigger. As long as EVO is the world championships of the FGC a larger scene will only help it, not even mentioning possible sponsorships.
@17
I only say Inkblot is looking out for himself because if MLG does pick up SSF4:AE, you're looking at payouts of $50K+ for the winner of the national championships. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think EVO could even sniff that type of payout.
@15
Capcom is loyal to the current tournament organizers, and they don't want those tournaments to fall by the wayside and get crushed. They have a bigger say than one would think, and there's a certain person for Capcom that I've heard is really holding the MLG process back.
While the money might get bigger, so will the limitations on both the players and the community as a whole.
Agreed with #1. The Illuminati is holding the community back. The added exposure would help grow the community and give bigger rewards to the top players. Only problem is that SRK wouldn't be in control of everything anymore. Too bad most of the ppl on srk are mindless lambs that listen to whatever their overlords tell them. Everybody always says "we don't need them, we can do it on our own", but the question is why? Why are we so afraid of growth and change? MLG has larger prize pools and triple the viewership. How would that be "bad" for the community? Because we'll forget our roots? Are we scared that MLG going to erase our memories and burn our history books? We'll always know where the community came from and what makes us unique among competitive gamers, but the arcades are dead, and they're slowly dying off in Japan as well. I mean, I love Final Round and Season's Beatings, and if MLG got involved, that won't stop those tournaments from happening. MLG will have scheduled events, and the organizers of those tourneys can coordinate with MLG so that they don't have competing events. This means we can have MORE events, with both the professonal MLG events as well as the grassroots community events we all know and love. Are we as a community so closed minded that we immediately reject an opportunity simply because it's different from what we've come to know? Communities stop growing if they're unwilling to adapt to the times, and right now we're stuck in the Middle Ages.
As far as the Asian players are concerned, you have to keep in mind the reason they love our tourneys so much... community really gets behind the players and tourneys. They see the difference with what they have (mainly tourneys ran by big corporations; besides GodsGarden, of course)and what we have. People around the world admire our scene, you all know this, too many articles on that...
HOWEVER, I'm certainly convinced you could draw more top level talent out of the FGC (worldwide) with MLG due to the prize pots. The top players want this, but I'm not sure the rest of the community is behind it, mainly because of how it could negatively effect them. MLG is about the best of the best, and it should be, but what about the rest of the FGC? Will they be left out in the cold? Will our long honored tourneys be taken away? Will these tourneys even be connected with MLG? ... so on and so forth.
Personally, I think if they can somehow work out the whole 'world championship tourney' thing with EVO, in a way that keeps everyone INVOLVED and INTERDEPENDENT, and keep the FGC engaged, then it may be possible for BOTH to collaborate successfully.
Problem here: e-sport leagues have a corporate model they are bound to follow, some things will HAVE TO GO AWAY, because of the sponsors attached(protecting their image, not wanting to be associated with certain behaviors, etc.) and to protect their professional interests. Traditionally, the FGC has been reluctant to conform to some of these things and that's where we are...
Don't kid yourselves, kids. This is GOING to happen, it's only a matter of time. Hopefully, the FGC, which (almost single handed) has kept this scene alive, isn't left out in the cold. We'll see what happens then.
@21
well you know what they say, mo money, mo problems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIyzG8...
But seriously money is about the only thing they can offer the FGC. They cant guarentee us the things that bring the hype, that bring the freedom to enjoy these kinds of events the way we always have.
1.NO POP OFFS WHEN YOU SQUEEZE IT OUT AGAINST A LONG TIME RIVAL, BE THEY EAST COAST OR WEST (looks bad to the sponsors).
2.NO SHOUTING AT THE TOP OF OUR LUNGS WHEN SOME REAL HYPE GETS GOING (again, looks bad to the sponsors).
3.NO SIDE BETTING/GAMBLING (even though its something thats been going on for ages? Why? You guessed it...bad to the sponsors).
4.NO BIG OPEN VENUES WHERE THE FANS AND FELLOW PLAYERS CAN GATHER AND ENJOY THINGS AT THEIR LEISURE/DISCRETION (all MLG tourneys run ALL games under ONE roof, making for PACKED/RESTRICTING areas)
Now if the MLG can promise these things remain intact (which they cant because its impractical seeing how space is finite) then sure go for it. Have a blast and get that money, but if its only a thing that a select few individuals can truly reap the full benefits of while the rest of the community gets left behind? You can forget it.
I feel the e-sports thing benifits those who are at the Top already rather than those that are trying to get started. It's not like you get a fresh new contest at the beguinning.
If we get an MLG for SF. People like JWong and Viscant ect automatically get a free pass in a leauge because their track record has been proven, but then where would I start? How many tournaments I would have to win just to join the leauge?
I can start in my community now, become the best, then travel to tournaments, place high or win, then go to EVO, do really well on the streams and that would be more than enough eposure to get me recognition. You can't do that with esports. Your either on the TOP, or NOT.
I understand the Pro's want to get paid for this but I feel esport fighters should stay far away from the FGC and just be an alternative extention from what it is today. Rather than trying to fuse the community togeather into one gigantic mess. We are still a fragile community, it does'nt get the kind of exposure as FPS do.
lol @23 Have you been to an MLG event? Clearly you haven't.
The only thing you have right is partially #2 and #3. I'm fairly certain side-betting is illegal, but if you're keeping it somewhat discrete, I doubt people will catch it.
As far as #2? That happens all the time. The only thing you can't do is drop curse words all the time. Halo has sick moments where players will yell, same as CoD. The EA Sports Challenge ran through MLG in 2009-2010. Madden players talk a lot of smack. MLG doesn't stop you from talking smack, they do stop you from cursing and using slurs, though. Heck, even this forum just prevented me from posting a curse word.
@24 Again, more MLG ignorance.
For the three games, MLG runs a championship bracket with pool play to determine seeds, as well as an open bracket for ANYONE to sign up for (before it hits the cap).
FGC games are different, so it won't be the exact same way they run the other games, but there will ALWAYS be an Open Bracket for anyone to play and try to win from. For SC2, the winner of MLG Columbus and MLG Providence (the national championships) came out of the Open Bracket to win the whole thing.
the term e-sports doesn't make sense to me unless they are actually playing an electronic version of a sport. Like madden or nba live.
Otherwise it's just Competitive Gaming in my eyes.
@24 I agree with that its always fun to see a new guy just come in and reck everyone and with mlg I dont think you can do that,anyways I feel that this could work out if we get to keep the hype/pop offs and the freedom to say whatever we want also like valle says money comes and goes but dont forget where you came from
ESports sounds like a good idea, but keep this in mind: When something like a Street Fighter Major comes up your only going to see popular matches. Why? because these matches may or may not be streamed or even broadcasted for free... That means no more Sp00ky or Level|Up, because they would be competing with the MLG for viewers. Small tourneys might get the axe as well, think, if Capcom partners with the MLG, you think Capcom would use this opportunity to grab some extra cash? 4.99 for a 4 person costume pack should be a clue people. You think $8.95 is bad? just wait. I remember watching DOA 4 WCG (kinda like MLG) matches...same people over and over and over, all with egos larger than life itself See my link below. Wong obliterated these guys at Tekken 6 in that gamer challenge thing ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwhzq9... )... Watching players such as Knives at bar fights might not happen if its not considered a "featured match" underdogs will be very rare. Plus these tourneys are gonna be compact, meaning there is parts of the event that wont be streamed. Im sorry to ramble on, Im just worried about what might become of the house that this community built. I don't want to see quality streamers such as Sp00ky out of a job after they workeed so hard to make it what it is today.
The top players are not thinking this through because they have their eyes on the money. If they do merge the majority of the players are going to be flirted out and only the players with attractive personalities and results are going to be featured.
I don't see this merger growing the fighting community but undermining merits of it - the streams, especially Team Spooky streams are fun to watch because it is "unadulterated" and not censored. Watching matches without commentary antics is pretty boring and the community as it is now have a mixture of that.
Plus what about the fighting games in general? What about upcoming streamers like Team Spooky? This is not a good deal.
@30 i completely agree...MLG will not recognize or sign good players unless they are popular (Justin, Daigo, Mago etc.) and it will only hurt people who work hard to keep the FGC alive such as alex valle, spooky, big e etc. if this merger happens tournaments will never be the same. The FGC has something great and i think its having a revial right now with UMVC3 and with 2012 coming out soon AE will be popular again. I really hope this doesnt happen...MLG's streams are crap unless you subscribe to them and also The FGC will be split and thats something we really dont need right now
also i think gootecks said it best on CCL, if u take your favorite underground music and have them play at a huge arena it would not be the same as seeing them a local venue. if we take or FGC tournaments to MLG it won't be the same as watching or competing in them as they are now
to sum the comments:
1. some people don't even debate the subject at hand, they're stuck at the door. the term "esports" has been discussed to death guys, get over it and come on in!
2. some people sh&t on SRK with a bunch of conspiracy theories and sweeping generalizations, overlooking the fact that:
a) SRK kept the fighting games flame burning with things like EVO, GGPO and their website&forums. the majority of the tournament organizers were/are full time members of that community like it or not. even the player base for Capcom games is historically tied with SRK forums, sure you're not gonna see Justin, Valle, Watson, Chen, Seth Killian etc. post a lot there anymore since the place has been overrun by the SF4 generation and much of the reasonable discussion gets drowned out in scrubs whining or wearing unfitting clothes for their "expertise".. which leads me to the next point:
b) i'm sure most of us frequent both sites, how about we get over that "EventScrubs" vs "Stupid Retarded Kids" nonsense (talking to those who seem EH-only, out of some self-perceived elitism). it's so 2009!
now back on topic: the "SRK illuminati" protects the scene as a whole. EVO is really fully established at this point and can't be threatened like a regional (Final Round, SB) by having a conflicting date with an MLG event.
if those community-founded & driven events bomb for like 2 years in a row because of MLG events, there's a big chance whoever holds them will lose interest and money in the process. what happens after MLG pulls out from this "fighting game" fad and moves to the next? i'll leave that to you to figure it out.
stay free fellow posters!
also i forgot to add: Capcom allows their games to be played in non-US esports events like Dreamhack (2009 through 2011) and ESWC (2010), because let's face it, here in Europe we don't have such an established scene with lots of events (outside of France and UK) and everyone's welcome.
they're being protective only with the big US scene since it took a lot of hard years to keep alive.
sure the top players all want better prize money and you can't blame them for wanting to monetize on their e-fame and talent, but let's not get carried away and sell ourselves cheap and sacrificing the spirit of this thing..
i say the more this esports thing cooks, the better.
#21 You were going somewhere with your argument by agreeing with #1, then you completely contradicted yourself saying we're a close minded community for not wanting this to happen.
WTF? Hypocrite much?
Interesting to note that Sundance says 2-3 people have consistently kept the FGC out of MLG... I wonder who those people are...
It's good to see that some of the top players are open to change. When it comes down to it, it's really about the players first. When we watch streams or go to events, we watch the players play. That's why I think the players' opinions of the whole eSports/FGC debate should take priority over all other opinions.
Addressing the rumors,
SRK's #1 request from Capcom over the years (by far) has been to put GGPO in their big fighters. How has that gone? Capcom does what it wants.
Evo does not directly compete with MLG. We're a different kind of event. Proof: MLG Anaheim was the same date as Evo 2011. Result? Record numbers at both events.
xoxo,
The Illuminati
@inkblot
Game design and community management are two different entities that are managed separately within Capcom.
For a group that isn't competing directly with MLG, you guys sure are vocal against it.
If MLG is not going to replace the existing competitions, why so much worries about it replacing the existing communities?
esports can have gootecks, way to screw people who doesn't live in US and didn't get to watch barfights live now have to paid for a DVD of it. yes i know there is some backdoor way to watch spooky's archive, but it shouldn't even needed in the first place. maybe gootecks should start worrying about his tournament results than his dvd/t-shirts sales number and stop riding on mike ross's coattails.
Why can't we the FGC just create our own patent league???? MLG is MLG. Why can't we just collaborate with one another to create our own? Instead of worrying about the shadyness of either side though admittedly it is there. There is always someone that stands to gain from this. So to stop someone from gaining we will go against or for it? Reminds me of the crabs in the bucket story.
Its pretty obvious the EVO & SRK guys all want to keep MLG out because they want to have a monopoly over the community. Even though that means FGC players make less money and have less events to go to.
Way to be selfish.