After the jump you'll find more videos, including sets with Adon, Chun-Li, Blanka and Zangief.
Dissapointed on the overall changes in Streetfighter, i sincerely think that Super Streetfighter was the best game ever in terms of balance, Sure you got your low tiers like Hakan and Dan, but still they could surprise you and then AE came with the Hongkong fighting Gods and it beat the crap out of everything, not nearly as excited about the changes as i should be. Hope for it to be good but with Cross Tekken on the corner... Hope they add Vega in there.
@ #4
But do the tiers really need to change much?
They've weakened some top dogs and strengthed most of the others, you don't need to turn the tiers on their head as that's even less productive in terms of balance.
@Spanishninja
hey dont be mad, they give to vega knock down on a very slow and unsafe move, you should be happy for that... hahaha just kidding, I want to see how long the new focus attack is, cuz damn is slow and is almost useless with that dash... ohh well
I only have one question to capcom, if they give to hakan a c.lk like bison or at least comboable normals like any high character make him broken or what? cuz his increase active frames on jumping attacks (attacks that are crap) will not make any difference...
@SteadiestShark
the only top dogs that seems nerfed are yun, yang, and fei, even that fei seems still very strongh, what I mean is that the changes on low tiers are just so small, that they will have the same problems as before, sure hakan start oiled but try to crush a crounching guard with
a) no cross up
b) no overhead
c) no jabs to at least tech throw
d) bad command grab
And some other examples, but damn they give the damage back on buffalohead
but anyway I just seek more balance on this, and that can be possible, I mean, bison have invincibility on all his ex moves, but some character dont have any scape...
@8
agreed with pat about bison having a hell of a lot of invincibility (and a teleport lol), while some other characters have no true invincibility on their attacks (ummm... vega much?)
but it is what it is i guess.... like i know every character isn't supposed to be equal... hell, not by story standards at all anyway lol. but they could at least get it right lol. four kings (bison and his generals) are supposed to be stronger than most of the cast.
@ #8
Akuma got toned down too.
Demon Flip palm now hitting mid means an easier time during vortex, since it's now possible to just block low (Akuma's divekick hits mid too), also charge character can keep their charge.
Forward throw changes will break his setups, especially the dash dash safejump.
Far roundhouse nerf (it also lost 20 damage) will help a lot character like Abel and Makoto who really have a hard time against it.
@ #8
Yun/Yang/Fei were the clear top dogs - and arguably Viper too.
They all got nerfed, there was no clear-cut group of characters below them.
You can't give every character every possible option, there'd be no point in using anyone because they'd all be able to open others up the same way.
These nerfs and buffs will help out every matchup to some extent, making everything a lot more balanced - even if it isn't perfect.
@ #11 (myself)
well "alter every matchup to some extent", some will possibly be worse, but they may be the matchups that aren't seen as often.
#11 did you watch ROM's interview after the southtown tournament aobut yang?
He said that besides loosing 10 damage here and there, yang's game is nearly untouched. Imo same goes to fei.
Also some mid-tier chars got many slight buffs that wont help them much. I really dont think the tiers will change that much.
People these day whine about balancing and tiers too much. I understand the yun, yang and fei comments but before this one, when a game was released you either live with the game and your character choice or stop. Possibilities of online updates have spoilt people.
No matter how much this game is attempted to be balanced, it will never in reality be entirely balanced. Characters will still suffer bad match-ups. In-fact it would be even more boring if there no im-balances, would be like playing mirror matches all day long
why is everyone still complaining about Bison? do you guys only complain? a game like SF will never be truly balanced, because there will always be idiots complaining about something/someone thats not even strong. Bison has invincibility on a lot of moves...great. is that all you guys look at? strengths? look at his weaknesses:
1) no high damage output.
2) very weak punishing game.
3) MUST be the one applying pressure, or will get destroyed.
4) only safe moves are light SK.
5) i believe has the WORST (or one of the worst) AA game.
etc... and people saying Bison is "easy mode." all you guys do is talk and never apply what you say into play. try playing a strong player, not your local XBox/PS3 players, and lets see how far Bison the "easy mode" character takes. he looks easy because people who have played him for a long time, make him look easy. anyways i could care less about all the Bison whining...AE 2012 is the last balance patch were getting so complain all you want...Bison is staying the same.
btw Bison has no reversals other then his Super in SF2, so i think him having the most reversals in SF4 compensates for that.
@16 - u understand the yun,yang and fei comments yet feel ppl complain too much about balance? contradiction much? but I digress, while I do agree about there always being bad matchups part, some bad matchups are so bad that even if the player playing thru the bad match is better they're still more likely to lose do to lack of efficient tools to deal with said bad match.when SOME ppl complain about balance some want a balance where there is no matchup so bad that the worse player wins more only due to their char choice.
@ #14
...And the tiers need to completely change becaaaaaaause?
The problem is where some characters aren't competitive enough and/or some are way too dominant. They nerfed dominant targets and buffed characters that weren't very competitive.
Also, 10 damage here and there makes a big difference when combo and health scaling comes into play. That said, that's not even the extent in which a lot of these characters are being changed, hell - we don't even know them all yet.
Fei's cr mp lost some damage, his links got harder, he lost jab to sweep, his flame kick lost damage and his rekkas are no longer so awkwardly difficult to punish - all key reasons as to why he was so dominant.
Have a little more faith...
@ #18
With all due respect, he's pretty easy and simple-minded.
He does actually have positives you know, like godlike air normals, ambiguous-natured moves that can be awkward to deal with, GODLIKE poke game, GODLIKE safe pressure game, floaty but downright scary jump arc (when mixed with aforementioned air normals), brilliant walk/dash speed, a solid teleport when used responsibly and a pretty nice focus attack that pulls him back before the impact.
I think his AA game isn't awful per se, just harder to use than many. (Cr HP is pretty slow and st HK will trade at some ranges)
That said, it's part of his character to be the aggressor rather than the turtler, so obviously people play to his strengths so they don't need to worry about this issue.
@BisonBetterBeGoodInSSF4
yeah but now add those weaks bison have and tell me just one character that doesnt have those weaks on mid, plus more weaks. I really dont know a character that dont need to do pressure or attack, if you want to win and dont have proyectile you need to attack, and bison have good pressure, so that weak apply for all, now try play a strong player with vega, elf, t.hawk, hakan, dan, gen, cody, juri, rose or others characters and you will know is far easier to stand a chance with bison than other mid or low, but if you only play high ranked character you will not know about that, so he will still be one of the easiest characters to use (that doesnt mean instant win of course), if you dont think that, well, you are just not as good even with him, so please never try a low tier ;)
Bison s.hk isnt so bad to anti air, you only need to use some brain and space it, people just want sakura´s c.hp or other good anti air, damn people... stay noob
@22
no i dont want any buffs to Bison actually... i want people like you to stop bitching about a character whos not even strong (as compared to others). no hes not Vega, Elf, T.Hawk, Hakan, Dan (was never supposed to be strong anyways), Gen, Cody (Codys not strong but he isnt low tier, dummy), Juri, Rose, but hes not Yun/Yang, Fei, either.
"if you want to win and dont have proyectile you need to attack"
very stupid analogy. Honda, Blanka and Balrog are just three characters off the top of my head who dont have projectiles and do better turtling then attacking. and my Bison may not be the best, but its enough to shut you up.
but like i said...if your gonna complain, complain about the strongest 2nd strongest 3rd strongest etc...character, not someone like Bison, because you dont have the experience to beat a person playing him. and he calls me the noob. what an idiot.
@22 I think you are somewhat understating the flaws Bison does have. One of his biggest issues is that he has literally no damage to be afraid of. Even his most powerful punishes outside of a raw ultra are weak.
Yes, Bison is better than all of the characters you named (though I dunno about Cody and Juri), but that was never the issue. The guy you were replying to was saying that Bison was far from easy mode, and he is right.
@21
the majority of the weaknesses i posted have to do with him attacking. his damage out put is bad, not the worst, but bad. his punish potential is weak and therefore his comeback game is also bad. his mix-up game? really? the only way you can EVER get a hit on someone decent with his mix-up is wake-up PC and forward j.Fierce. i could literally name you 15 characters with a better mix-up game then Bisons. not to mention that a lot of characters worst MUs are 6-4, where as Bison has a 7-3 (Guile). hes not simple minded at all. hes takes skill to use him. you want an easy mode character? you got your Ryu and Ken. those are the easiest characters to play and even they require time and practice to perfect.
@5
The top three in AE were very strong, but the gaps in potential amongst the cast were actually smaller than they were in Super. Super wasn't as balanced as people claim. That game had some very bad matchups too, plus the game was slower than AE so it wasn't as entertaining, imo...i like AE being a faster pace. The top tier in Super was simply made of characters that weren't played as much. How many top players played Guile? But if you played against a good guile, you could barely even get near the guy. Guile, Honda, Cammy, Akuma...they were all very strong.
People focus too much on AE's top tier, which is funny because not many tourney players even played the top three. More notice should have been given to the fact that the rest of the tiers were much closer than before, hence why you saw such a wide variety of character selection at gatherings.
hahaha you are the one mad, I just say he seems still like one easy character to use, and all we know that isnt far from true, I say he is better than others and have the same plus more weaks, also, if you fight against a blanka well he nos have reversal only by ex, so pressure is easier against him, you mention balrog, well that guy is one of the best, easy mode rog, have you heard that?
I never put him with yun, yang, or fei, I just mention he have invincibility on moves and hakan and others dont have how to escape, but is funny how I "complain" saying he is easier to use than mid and low characters, and that is true, and you people explodes, again, and please dont say the, he need skill to use in a high level, cuz all characters needs skills for a high level, I use vega, dee jay, blanka, sakura, rufus, and trying cammy,( and I know rufus is very easy to use too) so why you cry for bison weakness if even with that he is one of the best characters of the game. Again dont say the "but he requieres skills to use at high level" thats a old stupid logic, where I heard that? anyway...
@27
Yea, those were the things that I've been trying to say fro months by now.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?...
http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic...
http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic...
When it comes to a cheap, easy, and braindead character. No one even comes close to SSF4-Guile. For people who cry about AE-Yun's Divekicks, SSF4-Cammy's TKCS was WORSE than all three of AE-Yun's divekicks combined. Just watch Sakonoko abuse SSF4-Cammy's TKCS to a whole new level in Godsgarden 2 online.
And yes, I do think that Sako deserves to be placed lower in that tournament because he won so many by abusing a move that the producers never even intended to have in the game.
Yes, the three S-Tiers of AE are strong. But the gap of advantage between the lower-tiered and upper-tiered characters were the biggest in SSF4.
In SSF4, characters like Cody, Guy, Dan, Hakan, Makoto, Dee-Jay, and T-Hawk cannot win against a good Guile/Honda no matter how hard they tried.
In AE, every character can beat the three S-Tiers if they put in the effort. But in SSF4, some characters were dead in the water against OP characters like Guile and Honda.
Not to mention that some characters had literally no way to deal with SSF4-Cammy's TKCS. But every character can deal with all three of AE-Yun's divekicks.
@28
I really think you misread his post. He was not crying that Bison was too weak. He just found the idea that Bison is "easy mode" rather silly, as would anybody who plays him. The only people that would lose to "easy mode" Bison play are people that are not familiar with the many gimmicks that he has. But once you know Bison gimmicks (similar to once someone learns Blanka's gimmicks) it's an uphill battle for Bison since Bison has to capitalize on many of your mistakes due to his low damage, while many other characters have at the very least a strong punish or two to count on.
And yes, Bison's strong point is his options on wakeup, but keep in mind, all of his options can be option selected depending on the matchup. For example, Bison beats Ryu overall in the matchup i believe, but Ryu can beat all of Bison's options on wakeup with a shoryu, except for teleport which loses to hurricane kick.
uhhh Bison is easy mode... most charge characters are though so stop sweating. they're easy because pressing forward or up + button during a combo is easier then pressing forward, down, down forward + button. Which will equal less execution needed and less execution mistakes, imo anyway.
@ 11
Yep, Viper was top tier, but only because all of the other characters got nerfed and no changes were made to her. Now all of those characters got buffed again so I dont see a reason to nerf viper now. She's already technical and hasn't be been changed much since vanilla. But now she need a nerf now all of a sudden.
Hi, I'm a bison player & I played him in japan vs top players. he is a balanced charecter. but he is not top tier.
every thing he does is a 50/50 setuation, every move you do has a 50% probability of succeeding! all moves are punishable. Option Select destroys all his reversals.
you can even do OS throw on his EX.Crushers!
For Yun/Yang/Fie I believe they are much weaker now, because they have increased recovery frames on many essencial moves.
dive kick spam was the main reason why the twins were SS tier. you could spam it all day even though its a low prioraity move but the speed and arc of it destroys all charecters in the game + loads of same attacks. now you cant spam it because of the high restriction, you are at disadvantage when blocked! all other attacks have more recovery. They were nerfed!
top players already droping them!
@27,29
Thank you guys! That is exactly what I've been posting for months! The "Top Tiers" in AE were no different, if not Weaker than the "Top Tiers" in Super!
IMO, Vanilla had the strongest top three of the 4 series.
If you remove the Top Tiers from the argument AE without question had the SMALLEST gap between the characters in terms of balance!
People were thrown into a frenzy 6 months before the game even released because Ono San said "Strong Characters" have been added! Wow.
The tournament results since AE's release have NEVER been more varied in the Top 8! I can't help but feel the community cut AE's legs off before it even learned to walk. And perhaps spoiled a really good thing.
Oh, btw. Bison is a perfectly fone character. He has Strenghts and weaknesses like any other character. No need to turn your hate on him.
And to Bison players, (he's my third character) no need to bash the Ryu and Ken folks to defend your main. You don't like to be bashed, neither do they lol.
Peace.
Im 100% behind #29. matchups back in super like makoto vs guile were really sad. I didnt have many encounters with cammies back in super, but the sako videos speak for themselves. Also there was nothing worse than eating 2 of guiles backfist on counter hits. It did so much dmg and afterwards he was safe behind his little imaginary wall that he still has btw.
AEs top 3 needed to be tweaked, not nerfed. Although the vids in up here show that there wasnt much dif between 2012 and AE. I mean look at yang, hes still soild as ever. This community will still find ways to complain anyway, its what we do. and little by little we're ruining this great game,
@37 and @38
Yea, you guys can also thank the mods at eventhubs and srk for being TOTALLY BIASED in favor of one particular viewpoint.
They allowed crybabies who always said: "Yun is OP" But they locked up all my threads which actually provide detailed arguments and analysis of why AE was more balanced than Super was.
Though Capcom Unity was a lot more fair and unbiased. There were people at Capcom Unity who disagreed with my views, but the difference at Capcom Unity was that the mods actually played it fair for everyone.
The mods at Capcom Unity didn't just blatantly lock up my threads if they didn't agree with me the way that the mods at SRK and eventhubs did.
@ #25
Like I said before, that his character trait - rarely will you see a character that can do EVERYTHING well.
Bison's damage is low? So what, he has the speed, the pokes and safe pressure game in order to simply pressure and eventually overwhelm the opponent. Plus his jump arc and air normals means that his crossups/fakes are more potent than most other characters.
If these were unavoidable problems that made him an average at best character - you wouldn't have Bison in the top 5-10 in the Japan arcade rating list.
Finally, yes - he is pretty simple/easy to use. Just because you don't have the ability to mix people up to death etc, doesn't mean that his basic gameplan isn't simple/easy. Bison's lower-end plans just pay higher dividends than most, that's just the way it is.
@41
You missed the point. No one is arguing that Bison isn't a good character. When I hear someone is an "easy mode" character, I think of someone that is easy to rack up wins with without much issue due to having such powerful tools. With Bison, I wouldn't call it easy mode because despite some of the good things you mentioned, he has such low damage that Bison has to get in there quite a few more times than many other characters with higher damage output. His high-pressure game mainly comes into play when he is actually able to corner you, then it can easily be gg.
How do Bison's lower-end plans "pay higher dividends?" If anything, he is a lower-risk fighter that pays out low, lol. He has a safe effective blockstring that pushes to the corner and light scissor can be repeated ad nauseum. But his typical string of shorts to scissor does sometning like...117? That's not a high dividend. It's just safe to keep trying.
High dividends in terms of winning a round as a lot of characters find it hard to get around those tools. With his tools you can easily appply his lower-level gameplans to eventually beat people. Poke, shorts into scissors, occasional crossup/fake etc.
I see Bison as a character that doesn't kill very fast - but he can easily stay in a range where his moves will beat yours if you try anything.
Basically, he's low risk, and "it" pays low each time - but "it" happens a lot. His tools are pretty powerful and it's pretty obvious how and when they should be used in a match.
TL;DR:
It's the move properties that make him strong, not the damage they deal.
I also see Bison as a offensive Guile (light scissor kick instead of sonic boom, but with similarly impressive pokes) - as well as a couple of gimmicks.
I.E. You can use a really basic gameplan and get great mileage from it - providing that you don't throw stuff out at the wrong moments.
@fireinthehole
im glad your sticking to what you said months ago about guile! he was definitly op and just rediculous. although my most hated characters are dhalsim ( why make such a lame character who stretches and gives most characters a hard time ) and yang/fei ( i hate the rekka moves because they are too safe and chip out easy and if you dont have an answer to them you basically lose easily). AE is the most balanced but because people will always complain of course there will be another balance ( AE 2012). I do have complaints and what not but honestly with AE it was just the above mentioned top 3 ( they were too strong and needed some adjustments i.e the palms, divekicks, comand grabs and rekkas were all a bit over powered).
other then that im fine just need to level up a bit :)
I agree with Lynx, man.
I dont necessarily want my mains to be top tier. But SF4 vega is really sad man. Even in SSf2 on snes, vega was much tougher to beat than sagat or rog.
Atleast make the four kings (Rog,Sagat,Vega, M.Bison) a little bit better than the rest, but still in a mode where the difference is not that big.
I was hopeing to see some of the changes to Chun li in one of those vids but insted i see her getting destroyed by Bison which is funny because thats supposed to be the other way around (the guy defenitly needs more practice with Chun thats for sure) still wuz okay just not what i was hopeing.
@40
Sorry, bro. Catalyst is a fair and un-biased moderator. He's not like some of the people who are running the eventhubs forums or the SRK forums.
I don't see Bison as easy mode. At low level play he is very tough when people don't know how to punish EX.PC or OS his options on wake up. Once they are able to do that Bison becomes a lot more manageable.
Not saying he's a bad character, but I don't think he's an easy mode character. I'd accuse Balrog, Cody and Honda of that crime!
i want to see oni and gouki :-(