The "McGouken" Shane wrote an article on The Flashy Review about the difference between spamming fireballs and actual zoning. It's pretty well written and captures the perspective of the casual player when they don't quite understand how intricate zoning is. The article works off of a recent match between MCZ|Mago and EMP|Sanford "Santhrax" Kelly and goes into an in depth explanation on what was going on. Here's a snip from the article and click the link to read the entire thing.
Fireballs get a bad rap because they’re so good. When a player throws a fireball, his opponent has to quickly react in one of a few specific ways, or take damage. If the opponent blocks, he gets pushed towards a corner, where his attacker’s options for combos and offensive pressure become more powerful. If he jumps, the attacker has time to close the distance and set up an offense, or punish him as he lands. Against aggressive opponents, fireballs can also be used to control giant chunks of screen, and create nigh-insurmountable defensive setups. And they can do all of these things from a safe distance! These strengths combine to make fireballs the ideal spammable move: powerful, versatile, safe.
So when does a fireball thrown become a fireball spammed? To answer that question, I’ve turned to Mago the 2D God, and Sanford Kelly – two of the most notoriously powerful Sagat players on the Street Fighter scene. In the video above, taken from offcast’s live stream of the Redemption Suite post-EVO 2011, many fireballs are thrown, but are these players truly washed-up, spamming scrubs? The answer is: sometimes.
I feel like the word spam received too much of a negative connotation; especially from scrubs. To me spam is any time your throwing out a move for purposes other than causing damage. Whether that's "zoning" fireballs, or killing frames with normals to setup relyable (and predictible) safe jumps, or just creating visual noise by mashing jab, normals, palm, etc (used to build meter in various games as well). It's all just spam to me.
Best part of the whole article right here:
"Don’t just call these people scrubs and sign off! Teach them why they are scrubs."
Dan Severn, the godfather of ground and pound was criticized for the lack of technique he used. He just got on top of guys and punched them out. His retort was "If your technique is so great, than simply stop me." Fireballs are spammable. And many many people use them to hide the fact that their game is lacking. But throws, and lp shoryukens on wakeup are too. If someone chooses to win by spamming fireballs, they're only preventing themselves from improving.
Very good article. In my opinion fireballs served a few different purposes. Whether it's to see how well the opponent react, applying pressure, mind games, setting up a proper spacing or as simple as adding damage in a combo string. That's why fireballs are so powerful. Though I'm a little bit disappointed that Ryu in SF4 series doesn't receive a fake fireball move list. That would be more interesting on the mind games.
As a perpetual noob (lack of training effort, plus age and slower reactions) I'd have to say fireballs are fine at higher levels of play, but when you play mostly against players of C+ and lower they are overused and overpowered. As the article intro says, they are relatively safe, very versatile and powerful, this makes them very noob spam friendly and this is why at lower levels of play the SF online scene is so hugely dominated by the Ryu/Ken/Akuma/Sagat mould.
So they are fine for more advanced players, because you have learnt how to counter them with your character of choice, but they encourage people to just stick with the 'shoto-styled-4' at lower levels. This in turn makes it an uphill struggle for newer players who choose other characters, which in turn makes the game unhappily infamous for being all shotos.
It's not an easy one to solve, to encourage more diversity of character choice at lower levels, which is where entry level players will start and experience the game.
Main reason why I use Chun-Li is because you are trained to properly use and deal with fireballs. You have to charge them, so you have to strategically use them sparingly, and moves like Hazanshu and her U1 totally BLOW UP fireball spammers to work in our advantage.
I can say that I have NEVER mained a Shoto (only Akuma here and there solely because I use Morrigan in DS) and I'm glad. As Rose and Chun-Li, I have never been dependent on a wake-up SRK, spamming fireballs or any scrub tactic that would hold me back from improving my core gameplay.
I can see how fireball usage is up for debate as being "spam or zoning", but it depends on the level that you're playing on.
I use Dan Hibiki. I don't know what a Projectile is, but I fight these guys online all the time that throw these blue things at me! It's scary!
But, in reality, it depends ALL on the style used. With Sagat, it's his playstyle. Depending on the character, he wants you in or out. In that regard, when I use him, I feel he's my best zoner. Because if I want you out, I get you out. And if I want you in, I go slower. Get you a little over confident, then lay the pain.
I tend to pick non fireball characters to use for a few reasons.
- they tend to be abit boring
- imo, fireballs are lazy
- everyone online uses a shoto, which bores me (learn antoher type of character for gods sake!)
but i do have to, i like a brainless fireball spammer. bcos it just gives me an easy chance to counter them with an anti-projectile move/ultra..lol
i cant even count the amount of times ive won a match bcos someone has thrown out 1 too many lazy fireballs, and ive countered it with a Jaguar revolver, or a Tenshin Senkyuutai :p
Fireball spam: when you lost
Fireball zoning: when you win
the sf4 fireball game isnt that bad. Theres alot of things that get around them. Play some super turbo and youll see how much more powerful they used to be.
So if throwing fireballs work then it's zoning, but if it doesn't it's spam? So the definition is determined by your opponent? That doesn't sound right.
In my eyes Spam = Repetition. Things like success rate and baiting tactics don't play into it. But like i208khonsu said, the only reason people try to reword it is because it comes with a negative connotation.
Maybe people should spend less time trying to seperate a tactic into two words and more time coming to grips with the tactic itself. Spam/zoning/whatever the f*^& you want to calling is apart of the game. Faulting a player from doing abusing either is unjustifiable.
sims got TONS of anti hadou spam techniques :) on the ground theres low mk slide, focus absorb, yoga tower, teleport, yoga flame, yoga fire... in the air theres straight jump, jump divekick, instant aerial teleport, delayed aerial teleport, and last but not least the jump in yoga sniper, sure to discourage any loose hadou spamming... god i lolve dhalsim. too many options :)
Very nice read! Well written, excellent breakdown of the match video, and I totally agree with the general argument.
Fireballs are not overpowered in SF4 at any level. Most of the games fireballs do crap damage and most characters have options, many of them very effective and damaging, for getting around/punishing projectiles. On the flip side, top notch use of fireballs requires a lot of creativity and mindgames. I pretty much agree with Sakura and psycho.
SPAMMING IZ A VALID PLAYING STYLE REGARDLESS OF INTENTION BY THE SPAMMER....
The repeated uninterrupted use of a move mainly a projectile in my book is spamming , whether it achieves the intended goal be it to control space or to frustrate the enemy into a disadvantageous move is unimportant ....
It does not matter how much skill or thought it takes to come up with a successful pattern to throw fireballs the fact you throw-fireballs an easy to do move and can control your opponent options so heavily where you then only have to react to the opponent sometimes high risk maneuver to me makes you a spammer well and the fact that spamming literally means to spam which is the constant use/overuse of something ..... so does that mean a person who robs and gets good results iz not a robber with the same breath i say a guy who gets favorable results from constant repetition is also a spammer ...
Wow, people are so stupid, this was a good article, but he made some points that pissed me off, the only one worth mentioning though, is this: "There are a couple stray kicks, here and there, but those can be easily written off as input errors (kick buttons must be pressed to execute low fireballs)."
Seriously? The person writing this article is really under the impression that either MAGO, or SANFORD KELLY make INPUT ERRORS while doing fireballs is absolutely hilarious.... Stray normals are for multiple reasons, poking, baiting, etc. But not a missed input, rofl.
And to the people saying that fireball zoning is somehow spamming, because it is an easy to do move are retarded. They could make a fireball motion the most complex motion in the game and it would still be used in high level play because of the space control, and the limitations it places on your opponent.
I learned the hard way what fireball spam is, and what actual high level fireball zoning is when I played NerdJosh, and he used Sagat, while I played Dudley. For 2 straight rounds I was left completely helpless, no matter what I did, he knew exactly how to handle it, and I ended up getting destroyed by nothing but fireballs, and his punishes whenever I tried to get in. It was a wake up call, and left me with a very clear understanding of the difference in spam, and zoning.
Playing online, I deal with stupid spammers all day, and I can deal with them without any trouble at all, because they are throwing out fireballs, simply because that's all they know how to do, but they have no answer for any of the methods you can use to get through them, every time I have played a high level player, the fireball game is completely different, and I am forced to be very smart about every move I make. This is the difference.
Such outrage in all of these explanations! I always figured it was pretty commonly understood in the FGC that fireballs are not "cheap" and that pros do not win by "spamming" them at least in any connotation that removes skill from what's going on. There is no anti-fireball camp present in the community, it's a position of ridicule and the mark of a novice.
@22
I think you have it the wrong way. In the first few lines of that paragraph, he is clearly placing himself in the shoes of those people that cry "spam". He begins by saying Mago appears to be doing textbook spamming, and a few sentences later says one could just stamp "spammer" on Mago. Thus, the comment that his kicks were input errors were another example of this kind of logic that could justify the idea that Mago was just Mago spamming. The writer clearly was setting up to debunk these ideas at that point in the article.
I feel this is a common opinion when first starting fighting games. When i first started playing fighting games on the snes (SF2 some edition who knows as there was so many haha) , i use to hate fireball/projectile elements. I felt it was spamming, it ruined the game etc but this was because i didnt understand the game. I didnt know how to get round them etc but after learning how to get round them, i saw the strategic element of not only getting round them but how to use them. Spacing was now important and so was preempting and profiling my opponents fight style. They add another level of mentality and gameplan.
The aim of fighting games is to beat them and win at all cost, all is viable as they are avoidable, they are very fair as if they are not utilised well, they are very punishable especially when they are spammed.
I now feel they are essential to gameplay as punches and kicks. Like number 1 says, if you are keeping them out or making them makes bad moves and hitting them, then that is not spamming but playing tactical, however if you are just throwing them to bide time or win without knowing how to fight properly, you will fail and you will get punished if the opponent can adapt
I find 100% more people being scrubs and doing jab/throw/dp spam through block strings then so called fireball spam. a bad fireball leads to a potential jump in and losing a third health. good players will not lose to fireball 'spam'.
@27 fireball spamming, zoning; whatever you want to call it. Reminds me of how the computer used to play in Street Fighter 2 particularly Sagat and Guile.Tiger, tiger, tiger uppercut; remember how the computer would lace projectiles and wait for you to jump in . It's not particularly interesting or fun to play against regardless of whether you can or can't get around it.
People whine about whatever annoys them. Why do you think people whined about turtles in Super? A turtle like Honda doesn't have a fireball, but jumping in on him his suicide and he's annoying if you don't have projectile character.
The difference in zoning is in thought process, using fireballs to shut down your opponent's options. At a low level, fireballs are used to chip and catch people jumping in. There's a little thought, but the premise behind it is to take advantage of a tactic against players who don't know what they're using.
I've found many ways to deal with them, I use Gief and Focus/Lariat/Jump Over/Block fireballs. I refuse to use a shoto, so I became skilled with characters I liked. You must have mental fortitude and be willing to play trial and error. Both fireballs and dragon punches are annoying (especially dp'ing through blockstrings), but there are ways of countering them. This is the essence of fighting games, to counter your opponent.
Anytime you fight someone with projectiles, you should well prepare yourself to face them. Otherwise you brought your loss on yourself.
@ 30 I've mained non shoto characters since sf2, fireballs aren't a big problem. Less than enjoyable matches are.
I main Gen. A non-fireball character. It is very very difficult for me to get close to a fireball spammer? why? the only approach I have is focus attack dash cancel (FADC) and once close just to pray the Opponent doesn't uses a sweep attack, and if I try to jump they use an anti-air. Now if you notice, both characters have fireballs, and its still difficult to fight. Now imagine how hard it is for players like me to get close. Sure people say: " learn how to dodge them" or "learn how to play" but its just easier to spam a fireball. And this is why we see just Ryus, Kens, Sagats and players with fireballs.
And Im not even adding that once Im close, Sagat and Ken are pretty strong fighters at close combat.
I do understand that fireballs is a tactical game, but this tactical game makes much more sense when its done with Dee Jay. Deejay has low damage rate, but has fireballs. He seems fair and balanced in my opinion.
Not to disagree with this article. But Fireball-spam its still a huge problem for characters like Gen.
I would like to hear your opinion on this. Thanks
The way I judge zoning is simple. If you're effectively keeping me out, or causing me to make bad choices in a match due to fireballs, then bravo. But If you're just trying your best to flood the screen with plasma with out any thought,and I, a player of moderate(at best) skill can get past them, then you are nothing but a spammer.