On Capcom Japan's website they stated the upcoming balance changes for Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition will add a few extras words onto the already long title, making it "Version 2012."
This is bullshiit capcom claim these things take a long time to do but look how quickly there able to churn out another update
Balance eh. I see anything is possible even after being finished. I welcome this if it changes the flow up a bit.
With as many versions of Street Fighter IV, it seems like there are 2012 different ones. Street Fighter IV's giving Street Fighter II a run for it's money for most official versions.
SFII
SFII:CE / D
SFII:HF / T
SSFII
SSFIIT / X
HSFII
SSFII:HDR
Super Turbo Revival on Game Boy Advance should count too, but if you count that, you'd have to count all the different versions of SFII on other consoles, too.
SFIV
SFIV (Console)
SSFIV
SSFIV:AE
SSFIV:AE Ver.2012
Not to mention handheld/mobile versions (SFIV iPhone, Volt & 3D)!
@caruga
Are u the same caruga on PC? I'm Ugo_Unleashed. LoL of course the patch will come to PC too.
I think it has more to do with staying consistent in the community, this ver 2012 will feel like a new game, all the more reason to expect it at evo 2012, if they didn't plan a re-balance it might just lose it's appeal to other games as sfxt and umvc3 comes out. it's about milking our attention now and not just our money.
I would Expect them to release another dlc/sf4 version to mark street fighter's 25th anniversary next year, it seems obvious.
as much as im looking forward to this balance patch ... i was hoping for a version after sfxt where they would add all the new models from the sf side into sf4 ...
poison, hugo ... and possibly others that might be remade for sfxt
just to add extra spice to it ... ofcourse i would assume it would no longer be free then but ... im ok with that ...
Blog authors can just type "AE 2012." I don't think there will be any confusion.
When they wish to be formal, they can grit their teeth and power through the overwhelming difficulty of typing "SSFIV: AE 2012," which is only a few more letters than the "chocolate" and "strawberry" terms that some of them apparently thought were so cute and hip.
And once they finally master those challenging Copy and Paste functions, they won't need to assign ice cream flavors at all!
Characters are good if they have exploitable weaknesses. That's why the Fuetre nerfs were good, because there was otherwise very few opportunities to punish the Fuerte Rock/Paper/Scissor game. He needed to have an achieles heel.
That's why Fei/Viper are the most in need of nerfs. Both of these characters are constantly getting by with minimal changes or changes in their favor and now they both have almost no room for punishment in the hands of a good player. They need a hole to be exploited in, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WHOLE GAME!!!
I say ...
- Viper needs the same health as Akuma(850) or Seth (800). Her game is just as deadly as those characters so having the same health as Chun doesn't make any sense.
- Fei needs to have slower recovery on his second/third rekkas. That way you can bait and punish, while now you can just bait and ... get punished. Sign. I hate the Honda or Hakan vs Fei match. Seriously.
Won't the twins whiners be pissed if the patch is only to fix the glitches that Yun has haha.
btw, in case these crybabies / whiners didn't notice, only TWO Yuns made top 8. There were NO YANGS. If you guys still bi**h about Yun then most of you just suck at the game and doesn't invest the time to be good at it.
Nerf Yun's damage output slightly and palm meter build slightly. Lower m. and h. dk damage by 10. Change the hitbox for h. dp so that it cannot hit when going under someone. leave light and medium alone.
Remove the st. mp x CW against certain characters for Fei Long. Lower m. and h. dk damage by 20.
Lower damage from normals slightly for Yang when in his super (sein enbu?). Nerf palm meter build slightly.
Remove the obvious discrepancies and glitches like trade sweep to anything or yang's wake up invincibility.
I don't know how to buff lower tier characters, but leave the top 10 characters alone beside those changes. C. Viper, Makoto, Zangief, Ken, Sagat, Sakura, Akuma, Seth, Bison, Balrog, Adon, Sakura and Chun-li seem fine to me. I may be forgetting some people on the list, but some do need apparent buffs.
One can only hope and wish they fill those 2 spaces on the roster...... :(
lol @ giving Zangief knockdown WITH LP SPD range buff from AE. That's WAY too much for Zangief. IF they do this, I have no reason to play this game at all. Vortex, SPD, EX GH knockdown? No.. I don't think capcom is that stupid to give Zangief that buff, even after they buffed U2. Stop it, please.
"Viper needs the same health as Akuma(850) or Seth (800). Her game is just as deadly as those characters so having the same health as Chun doesn't make any sense. "
Not really. A lot of a characters power is invisible. Subtle things like knock-down time or where your position is after a knockdown can make a huge difference. You could nerf Seth just by fiddling with the knockdown or knockback values of his moves.
Right now Akuma and Seth have a lot of setups and vortex potential as a part of their design. While I don't main Viper I don't think she has nearly as much in that department, it's mostly the 50/50 burn-kick that is the "go to". They call it her mixup, not her vortex. Maybe a slight damage nerf to burnkick would be appropriate?
I wouldn't undestimate the thought that went into the health and stun values given to Ibuki, Chun, and Viper versus other characters.
it wasn't that long ago that what shipped at launch was all you would get. even if the game was buggy, not balanced, missing features... you'd be stuck with what came on the media you got whether it be pcb, cartridge or disc. if sf2 came out now what would people be saying about the changes from championship edition to turbo? or super sf2 to super sf2 turbo? and how they were delivered? as said before, capcom are damned if they do and damned if they don't and this is the way games work nowadays, get used to it.
I like this alot, they tried to spice things up in arcade edition but obviously the reaction of the community and common sense prevail, trying to achieve balance makes for a better game then purposefully twisting it so we have a few high tier characters
bring it on Capcom :)
honestly i main yun, but i don't mind this rebalance, its only a matter of time to discover who is the most OP character and everyone is going to change to that character, after that people will still complaining to that character..
stay free and salty complainers.. you know who you are..
@ 15
A single FFF combo for 60-80 % stun? Wakeup EX Seismo into Ultra, or just trade and dash for it - or plain FADC out of a fierce TK? Ultra strong okizeme?
Viper has been a sleeper since Vanilla, she's always been the most feared character by japanese players.
I believe a small reduction in damage/stun could work for her, but more than that other characters need to be boosted.
How come ryu can do combos that are like 20 hits, yet still only take 50% life........yet yun can do a combo with full super meter and the round is basically over with.
Yun is fine, but his damage output is ridiculous.....at evo watching the yuns play it felt like it was always going to go to 3 rounds, because 1 round was always free and the third depended on having enough meter for another super.
Just give me Vanilla Sagat or something close to it.... Whatever else they do after that is fine by me... On another note. I would like to see a next Level Gouken. We've seen Akuma's transformation to Oni and I'm interested in seeing what Gouken's "Oni" level is....#GoDLike
#43
AE Sagat is close to Vanilla without having broken damage.
Isnt that much more obnoxious than
Street fighter III:Third strike - Online edition
A few characters shorter lol not a big deal.
@#20 mrdrofficer
There are things you are overlooking when you compare viper to akuma/seth. Just cause she can terrorize people on wake up does not put her in the same league as them two. Now for simple list of what akuma/seth have that she doesnt.
Akuma/seth:
Both have strong reversal+fadc option(3 frames DPs),
Both have teleports that are useful in there own match ups, Both have access to command grabs that are useful in there mix up games, Both have a better footsie game along with normals good for anti airing, Both have a solid fireball with fadc(seismos cant be utilized like a fireball due to it not lingering on the screen while the character is able to move).
See there are many things that can warrant seth/akuma to have crap health. Viper strength lies on her ability to capitalize on damage on openings, and she requires alot of risk on both execution and gameplay style. She is highly dangerous no doubt but she has big glaring flaws which keeps her in check naturally just like zangief.
Just alter the hitbox and meter build for palm.
Non ex lunge to be non armor breaker.
Differentiate Yun & Yang so that they both would have different matchup difficulty instead of people looking at Yun as the better of the twins. Make people play Yang.
Make Gouken divekick an overhead capable. Increase the tatsu hitbox.
Buff Evil Ryu health slightly, or else people will abandon him.
Buff the low tier character. Leave the rest of the upper tier as it is.
@#32 Mellow
Zangief kinda needs his exGH knockdown back, that lp spd range could be tossed for all i care. As i find setting up/landing the 360+k is much better for positioning/damage. As its easier to keep someone cornered and allow for a more deadly wake up game mid screen. The damn spd launches people across the screen forcing me to regain spacing and a bad read after GH pursuit can reset the match in their favor.
As of right now all he really got is that LP SPD... his so-called vortex game went to shambles due to no KD on exGH. A 2 birds one stone ordeal there. I find that LP spd made his good match ups better in some cases and his bad match up worst due to not being able to get a solid momentum going when you finally do get in.
@43
I was wondering the same thing myself. If Gouken has the opposite power to Akuma, why doesn't he have his own unique Super/Ultra K.O. background colour and 'Winner!' noise like Akuma and Evil Ryu have?
And as he is a 'Grandmaster' character and has achieved this 'Nothingness' power, surely he should be able to reach a higher level.
Dudley right now only needs better hitboxes and speeds for his normals, Dudley players like me have to just accept that matchup problems against charge and zoning characters are just a thing of the game itself, that is why you get a pocket yun when someone picks guile/dhalsim/chun. A buff for ultra 1 would be awesome tho, like the thing actually hits dhalsim/chun without trading with their fireballs right away.
Buff my main character and nerf all other characters.
Please give ONI's Shoryuken FADC on block. That's all he need to make him a tournament worthy character.
They can leave the twins, Fei and Viper. But then Capcom has to buff the rest of the cast. Super Balrog, Super Cammy, Vanilla Sagat, Vanilla Ryu, Super Guile,...
Sabin and Ryan Hart were talking about this and apparently there was another "version" all set up but chose the current version instead so it looks like they might test that one out again.
@#55
The various things i would like to see happen to vega is that the start up on his stronger rolling crystal flashes start up to be made faster. And for an incentive to use them, help them bounce over lows better. While the LP one keeps its slight purpose for chipping loops. And for old school days buff the range on his izuna drop grab ranges, bring back the old style vega... its not like he would have his insane speed like in ST. And would be nice if the super flash didnt give away the super so easily, should be like the ST days where you only see the flash when you grab.......YEEEEOOOW!!!
I'm sure everyone saying "nerf viper" have never played her seriously.
If you did you would realize how much work it takes to play her. Maybe Latif and wolfkrone make her look OP, but they some of the hardest workers at this game... Try to play as viper than say she is OP.
Random burkicks and TKs can only get you so far
I want my KD on EX hand back, against zoners, that is Gief's answer. It's part of the reason why Flash got so dominated by Akuma. Gief does not have anything else as good to traverse him across the screen and his walk speed is garbage. I'd rather the range on SPD just get slightly nerfed and I get the KD back, something that HELPS his back match-ups.
@70, while viper is really hard to play execution wise, it doesnt matter in terms. you ALWAYS think of a "100% pro".
on the topic about viper. she is strong yes, but not too strong. doesn't matter that a few minor tweaks to tone down her damage/stun slightly wouldn't hurt. her comeback potencial is simply a tard over the top.
Viper doesn't need nerfs, but if they MUST nerf something, please have it be her damage and only slightly. Buff Dudley by giving him some Balrog normals and Dash punch. Balrog Jab Button and Balrog's crouch roundhouse mapped to Dudley's crouch forward and have it do 60 damage.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
@Raven as much as I want it back it won't change it drastically especially if the Akuma picks U2 since he can hide it in his teleport.
top32 at Evo (not counting secondary characters):
5 Fei Long, Yun
4 Sagat
3 Ryu
2 C.Viper, Akuma, Zangief, Dhalsim, Abel
1 Ken, Seth, Adon, Guy, Makoto, Rufus
notice there are no Yangs (or Onis, LOL)
i hope they don't jump the gun again with the nerfs, especially when everyone is crying about THE TWINS, when clearly one twin is more deserving of nerfs (all i'm saying they shouldn't be treated equally).
Yun and Fei Long need some toning down for sure. for the rest of the cast some changes i feel are almost undebateable:
- Rose needs old U2 back
- Guile needs to have some of his changes reversed (Ultra2 damage and meter gain)
- Ryu needs his old c.mk
i can't really decide for the rest, they seem good enough in a vacuum and with Yun/Fei nerfed
Some things that need to be changed:
Fei needs to lose frame trap rekka(Fuudo abused it).
Adon needs his wake-up back.
SPD for Gief smaller, green hand knockdown, maybe give him an air throw(why wouldn't he have one in the first place?).
Yun's EX lunge not as so much advantage on black, Ultra 1 whiffs on hit, or meter gain nerfs.
Give Dhalsim some damage back or more defensive options.
Rose Ultra 2 invincible startup.
Cody needs his Zonk Knuckle nerfed, too many invincible frames.
Guile needs damage back.
Dan's gadoken chargeable, more stun on moves.
E. Honda gets his lp headbutt back.
T. Hawk Ultra damage nerfs(They do way too much damage!)
That's just off the top of my head. I think they changed the way that some characters are inherently and I want this to be a game full of characters showing their full potential!
I think yang needs to stay the same, or just dont let him build meter as fast because he needs meter to apply his strong pressure and maybe nerf palm. Yun needs to be even at best with his ex lung and also I think his dive kick needs to be as high as yangs, also nerf his damage output a little. They need to make gief like he was in Super just straight up revert him back because right now he is balls. I have a friend that made top 64 last evo and his arguments for geif are understandable and legit. As for the rest of the cast give ryu his crouching mk back, and maybe just help those characters that are c tier or lower.
But keep in mind if one character gets buffed the wrong way we can see another top tier monster. Also as far as Viper goes leave her alone because shes hard as hell to play, your execution needs to be perfect at all times and shes still a glass canon.
Also think before you yell out the nerf card and really ask yourself "Am I just salty because I cant beat this character, have I tried everything, what are the characters strengths and weaknesses?" Then if you have a valid complaint you might consider posting but they teach in the first class of college lvl logic you cannot argue an opinion you can only argue facts.
@60
LOL. Vanilla-Sagat and SSF4-Guile were way more OP than AE-Yun is right now. Plus SSF4-Cammy's TKCS was a much more broken tool than Yun's divekicks.
Yang does not need buffs, he's hard to access because he's not as easy to learn as Yun, but that doesn't mean that he is weaker than the rest of the cast. Rose does not need her U2 invincible back, people have had enough of her in super and rose who rely on U2 to win does not deserve their wins. The street fighter community is starting to look like a MMO forum with lots of clueless people asking for ridiculous buff/nerf.
I hope they don't nerf Viper. I have trouble fighting against her too sometimes but the way I see it, she has reached her limit. I don't think there is much room for improvement beyond what Latiff did. So what you saw was 3-4 years of knowledge put into the hands of some exceptional players to reach her max potential. So what's the point of nerfing when it not like someone is gonna all of a sudden find something new that's gonna put her over the top. Right now she is just a very tricky character to fight that keeps you on the edge of your seat. I actually enjoy the challenge. Its a test of reactions and space control.
@89: Which explains why only about four people ever did well with her in tournaments, and why Yun is so much more popular than SSF4 Cammy ever was...
@#83
Dude Thawk ultra damage nerfs? All he has is damage lol to take that away hes left with basically nothing. And as pains me to have to post this im gonna:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/...
THERE are plenty of people with comparable damage ultras or more for both ultras, So how does his of all things do too much? Not trying to attack you or anything, just there is no grounds for that claim.
Cody zonk knuckle is about all he have for reversal purposes, and it still not as good as other invincible moves.
Dan is gonna do what with a chargable gadoken? be a ghetto oni?
rest arent asking for anything drastic.
Shouldnt go off the top of your head when thinking of things to nerf, that leads to problems. These things need to be thought out in a broader spectrum.
Get some more characters in there. You've got to keep moving forward, you can't afford to rest with what you've got, Capcom.
Fighting games have to become like MMO's in so much that there's regular updates, new characters, new moves. You have to innovate or the thing will go boobs up.
@70
You can also say the same about Daigo and Kindevu making AE-Yun look OP since they were the only 2 Yun in EVO top 10 just as Wolfkrone and Latif were the only 2 Vipers left in Evo top 10.
BTW, Vipers burnkick game can get her really quite far against certain characters. Just look at Latif's burnkick game against Daigo who used a character that didn't have many good answers to it. Latif abused it against Daigo.
Now compare Latif's burnkicks game against Fuudo using Fei's Ultra 2 (which can stop Vipers burnkicks in its tracks). There were a few rounds in which Latif raped half of Fuudo's life using the burnkicks, but then stopped as soon as Fei got ultra-2, Latif immediately stopped when Fuudo had ultra2 because he knew that he was in for big chunck of life loss if he keeps doing that sh1t.
But what about Viper playing against characters who don't have a counter ultra-2 like Cammy and Fei? Yea, she'll keep going on with her burnkick game until the very end.
Cody Zonk Knuckle is a horrible reversal if it's not EX. Why would you nerf it? You can safe-jump it, it's only high-strike invincible, and it's crazy punishable on block. Even EX, it's pretty lousy. If you're losing to Zonk Knuckle bait it or hell, learn to safe jump a 6-frame reversal.
I don't know Viper option selects, but can't everyone just FA backdash Burn Kicks as they're waking up?
To all people that are crying about Viper.
Ever tried to play Viper?
Any succes with the ridiculous amount of execution needed?
And if you have play Viper, have you ever made a slight execution error (even at long range)?
Did the punishment hurt like hell? Your answer is going to be yes. Viper is somewhat like a execution-Seth type. If you do everything perfect AND your opponent guesses wrong a few times you win magnificently. If not, you lose easily. Ofcourse Seth is a lot safer so she does a lot more damage.
Btw: Yun is way better than Viper so if anyone needs nerfs....
@96
Viper's burn kicks sound like Ibuki's vortex....or Gouki's vortex... or Elfs vortex...or any other guessing game, but the difference is that you cant do more than 2 burn kicks cuz they push you away afterwards.
@83
You dont know what you're talking about. I suggest you destroy your copy of ssf4 and leave this site in shame
-Zonk knuckle nerf? One of the most shamefully bad and option selectable reversals nerfed?
-Rose u2 invincible? OMG you're an idiot.
-Guile more damage? Chargable gadoken? T HAWK DAMAGE NERFS?!
Please go play Mariokart or something since thats the kind of balance you want.
#96
It's really not as easy as you make it sound. Play as viper and try that online, may work on some scrubs that cant block but not at high-level play... Didn't seem like Daigo was respecting Latif much because he was doing upkicks on wake-up almost everytime, also a big reason why he lost to Poongko.
Yun and Fei were the two most represented characters in the tournament with 5 each in the top 32 compared to 2 vipers in the top 32
Personally, I don't have many wishes beyond the the mild nerfing of the twins and Fei Long and maybe some buffing for the weaker characters.
My characters (Makoto and Vega in particular) seem to be in a good place right now.
Makoto's still hard and tricky to use, but I don't feel that's the fault of how the character is designed, but just bad execution.
Vega is still good too despite his damage nerfs. But if there's one thing I'd love to him to have, it would be maybe just one more frame of hitstun off of Cr.lp. Linking two of those together is harder than it should be. Otherwise, maybe a way to combo into U1 beyond FA2
I think a lot of the characters are actually fine in AE, only a couple need a few tweaks.
@ people who want guile's U2 back:
That thing started up really fast AND travelled halfway across the screen faster than the Metsu Hadoken could, so it being like 60 points MORE damaging than Metsu Hadoken was a little much IMO.
I also think that Yun's Shoulder and Palm should have their properties swapped. Dash punch seems to me to be a bit too quick to be an armor breaker, I'd say the shoulder would be a bit more fair as an armor breaker.
&96 Almost every character has an answer to burn kicks moves that go low for example shoto c.mk, focus attack, Gief's U2, lariat etc. so almost every character has an option FA being the primary. Also Kindevu & Daigo were stuffing burn kicks as well during there matches.
@#100
You can, problem is... knowing which way is backdash lol. All it takes is a good read to reset her burn kick game. While others have low attacks that can help make it whiff, and a few can almost just walk away dependent on the situation(not saying names). And another thing i believe its considered a projectile too, so you can adjust accordingly. I know hakan can ex oil shower thru it all day(character i tend to use against vipers) There are many things that can be done to avoid/escape the burn kicks. Which you tend to see be done which leads to vipers downfall.
@60
Calling for the return of Super-Cammy is basically a more deceitful manner in calling for Capcom to give Cammy her TKCS back. A tool which so many top-level pros call out as being broken.
There's absolutey no reason for why anyone would call for the return of Super-Cammy other than wanting her to have the broken TKCS tool back. AE-Cammy received LOTS of buffs in other areas compared to Super-Cammy. Capcom gave Cammy SO MANY buffs in other areas to make up for removing her broken TKCS tool.
BTW, Cammy is not a$$ in AE at all. She is definitely A-tier in AE. Though she was broken-tier in SSF4 because so many characters of the SSF4 roster had no way to escape her TKCS pressure. I'm not the only one who has been saying that SSF4-Cammy's TKCS pressure is FAR WORSE than Yun's Divekick pressure.
Just ask all the people who used Guy, Ryu, Juri, Viper, Dan, Hakan, Hawk, Cody, Adon, Dee-Jay, etc... All those characters have a easier time dealing with AE-Yun's divekicks than they did dealing with SSF4-Cammy's TKCS pressure.
So cammy went from broken-tier in SSF4 --> A-tier in AE. So what? A-Tier does not mean she's a$$ at all.
@111: You keep using that word 'broken'. I do not think it means what you think it means...
It should auto-correct dash depending.
Most of the characters you list have a dp that would work, FA does as well her pressure wasn't all that to some exaggerated level also she was blown up by characters with better options and pokes making it meaningless. The only characters that would have a problem are the same ones who always had a problem with dive kick characters in general Hakan, Abel, and Cody (with no meter).
#104
Flashmetroid used zangief most of the tourney and I think won one game with viper... After Tokido owned Flash's Zangeif, he then switched to Viper in order to lose.
I wouldn't consider that as the third Viper maybe 1/4 Viper
@112
Haha, tell that to all those weaboos sobbing about Yun in AE.
@117: And you used the word weeaboo wrong too! (I really don't understand what you have against Cammy that can't be better applied to Yun...)
@114
All those things you've listed as being counters to SSF4-Cammy's TKCS can also be used against Yun's Divekicks. Cammy's TKCS had a bigger hitbox, smaller hitable box, higher priority, and comes out faster than Yun's divekicks.
Plus I did say that: "people who used Guy, Ryu, Juri, Viper, Dan, Hakan, Hawk, Cody, Adon, Dee-Jay, etc... All those characters have a easier time dealing with AE-Yun's divekicks than they did dealing with SSF4-Cammy's TKCS pressure."
And I still stand by my words that SSF4-Cammy's TKCS was worse than AE-Yun's divekicks.
Lol the auto correct part was for powdered on my phone
i really cant believe people here want viper nerfs, she has been more or less the same since sf4, high risk high reward character thats a difficult character to use even for more advanced players. Leave her ALONE.
@121
cammy needed her cannon strike mix ups. If its too overpowered for her then u need to take ALL dive kicks out of the game period. The move was fine.
@ Ex_Ein, I don't have a problem with it. i just think it'll be funny if they start releasing balance patches each year and name them like the sports franchises... Sorta like the old KOF.
@123
If you think that SSF4-Cammy's TKCS was "fine" then I suspect that you are writing to Ono and saying that all of Yun's divekicks are fine as well right? After all, Cammy's TKCS has always been worse than Yun's divekicks so I'm not really getting to logic of people crying about Yun's divekicks but want Cammy's TKCS back.
@#122
im not too sure about the auto correct on the dash against the aerial burn kick. Rarely faced vipers to be able to tell which dash im doing and if it auto corrected, thus why i havent mention it. But as i said i use hakan usually if im fighting her. As he can cancel his dash with a normal if hes oiled, So a quick focus absorb and punish is possible :P Same for her seimos pressure.
But if it does auto correct the back dash im sure it would also beat her option selects if you let the focus hang slightly before dashing to escape a seimo or sweep directly after.
You cant nerf or buff Viper. If you nerf she will most likely be s--t, if you buff her she will probably be OP. Viper is fine how she is and, high risk high reward character that requires alot of skill to use.
Viper is a character whose placement of the tier list depends on the rest of the cast. In Super she was at the bottom of the top 10 because of the Honda Bison and Balrog match.
@#124
Ey man dont compare kof to roster update whoring sports games :(. Atleast with each KOF iteration there were added characters, battle system changes, graphical updates, balance changes, and most had something storyline related besides the dream match ones of 98 and 2k2.. 94,95 was the rugal saga/ 96,97 was the orochi saga/99, 2k, 2k1 was the NESTS saga/ 2k3 had continuation of orochi saga+ash saga. And IIRC the stories werent just thrown together like others series we know(cough) and they had an impact on gameplay changes in future releases.
my input:
-c viper doesnt need to be nerfed. Everyone's treating her like a new character when she has always been this good
-el fuerte has always sucked, no matter how tricky you can be with him
-I think the twins need overall damage output lowered, but the fact that they can make some sick combos is ok and makes up for it.
also, shut up fireinthehole. you are the biggest weeb on here. who are you to call someone else a weeaboo in a condescending manner? Oh wait a sec, you don't even f*cking know what it means.
@83
"Rose Ultra 2 invincible startup"
I swear to god if this is a complaint saying that you think Rose's U2 is any good at the moment I lose all hope in the intelligence of others. Not that I had any hope before.
Rose's U2 WAS her only reversal option before. I don't see how it had been a problem. Especially in a high offence game they are trying to make.
It was a get off me move that was safe but could also be safe jumped and baited. Really don't see how that was a problem.
I just hope in the end we get SSFIVT (Super Street Fighter IV Turbo) with the last two characters Ono trolled about awhile back. Also put every character at their respective best, so we can have a game where it just come downs to skill.
For those saying nerf Viper... Do you know how difficult it is to play her like that (Latif, Wolfkrone)?
@121 Don't look at one move, look at the moveset. Cammy may have a TKCS that's worse than Yun's dive kick. Will you say that Cammy's spin knuckle is as effective as Yun's shoulder? Is her Spiral arrow as safe as Yun's lunge punch on block?
A lot of people not thinking out of the box. Folks feel that if a certain character has only one thing going for them then it should'nt be touched. but what if that one thing makes match ups really bad for other characters? Can you truly validate an excuse to allow it to be abused?
Taking that abuse away does'nt make a character weaker if it was never meant to be done in the first place.
The sheer thought of nerfing Viper is beyond ridiculous.
Seriously? Because she finally got represented at EVO, now people want her nerfed? How? She's a bitch to use as-is: her mixups (which are still 50/50 at best) and her damage are your only reward for playing such a technical character, and pretty much anything she reads wrong leaves her open for days.
She doesn't even have good normals to abuse.
Even a health nerf is a ridiculous thing to request, especially on a character who lives solely on risky reads.
@132
morons dont understand that. Cammy needed the cannon strikes, the rest of her moves are straight unsafe or borderline useless(seriously, i dont remember her spin knuckle ever being good). that guy attacks like all of her moves are safe on block or something.
compare the difficulty of a viper FFF combo to the difficulty of Yun's c.mp, c.mp, s.mp to upkick combo... You get the FFF damage because you need the FFF execution... high risk, high reward
Execution may not be a big factor when making a tier list but it should play a role when making balance changes... Even at the highest level, I see missed burn kicks and dropped Viper combos from Latif and Wolfkrone
@134
I reckon that you're referring to the TKCS right? If so then I'll have to agree with your second paragraph on that matter.
Cammy's TKCS was definitely a game changer which was never meant to be done in the first place. Some people say "it's only one move" but fact is that that one move, TKCS, made it so a lot of characters didn't stand much of a chance against her.
@137
And morons like you need to understand that the TKCS was broken to the point that many characters didn't stand much of a chance against her.
Morons like you also need to understand that Capcom gave Cammy SO MANY buffs in other areas as a replacement for the removal of her TKCS.
In AE, Cammy's movesets were not straight up unsafe or borderline useless. She now has to play a more fair and square footsie game with other characters rather than just put people in lockdown with her TKCS spam.
And NO, Cammy does not "need" the broken TKCS. What was needed was that the TKCS to be removed but Cammy gets buffed in other areas so that she can play a more fair and sqaure game with the other characters.
Capcom did just that, and lots of online scrubs are now crying and saying that Cammy is "a$$-tier" in AE. These scrubs are not happy with the fact that Cammy has to play fair and square now and would much rather go back to the days of doing the cheesy TKCS spams.
@142: Yeah, all the legions of Cammy scrubs on and off-line who abused the hell out of a move that was very hard to execute, built little (if any meter) and was her only way of applying pressure.
And where is she now? If she's THAT much better in every other department, why don't people use her anymore? You have consistently failed to answer this, while defending EVERY aspect of Yun's moveset...
-TKCS are wayyyy harder to do than Yun's instant dive kicks
-they did not cross up where as Yun's dive kicks do
-not to mention all the other unspammable moves that cammy has that are easily punished if blocked, unlike Yun with his insanely safe normals and specials... lol even his ultra has quick recovery if missed, and where are the recovery frames of lk. upkicks?
forgot to mention that Yun's dive kicks have 3 different angles, while Cammy's spike has only one
Marlin pie wasn't a fan of the change and neither was Sako are they scrubs too?
you know what. i just realized this EH community is full of jealous idiots who cant see another player dominate without having to say "NERF HIM HES TOO STRONG!"
i remember that on every thread discussing balance changes or ANYTHING about Yun me (and some other EH members) would have to constantly tell you idiots that Fei is superior. too much surprise (sarcasm) they still didnt listen. and now that Viper and Fei were top two at Evo, all of a sudden theyre broken tier (no pun to Latif). all of you whiners who probably dont even play this game and just like to troll, can go burn in hell for all i care. theres no pleasing you morons. im seriously hoping a Dan wins next years Evo so the dumba$$e$ can show their true colours.
@146
Sakonoko, the guy who abused the TKCS to make his way through Daigo, Momochi, Uryo, YHCMochi during Round 2 of Godsgarden 2 and then lost to Mago, the only person in Round 2 of Godsgarden 2 using a character who did have a legitimate answer to her broken TKCS pressure?
Can you please think of the opinion of other pros besides someone who abused the TKCS as one of his maincourse tactics?
@148: So what about Seth? With your logic, people should be calling out en masse for a Seth nerf?
Or Akuma? Tokido and Infiltration make him look positively godlike, so where are the 'morons' calling for a nerf for him?
oh and one more thing. the balance changes are already in process, so you'll get your nerfs to Yun and possibly Yang/Fei/...but you can most likely count Viper out (for any serious nerfs). aint gonna happen, and im hoping it wont happen. i dont even play Viper and tbh i hate her the most (after Blanka), but theres real skill behind her playing, thats why theres only a few good Vipers out there. you can blame Daigo Tokido and PoongKo for MU knowledge or whatever, but it sure as hell isnt Vipers problem. Capcom if youve got half a brain left you know 3SO is coming soon. dont make it so that SF4 series is absolute $hit, because i can assure you, the people who wont be able to survive 3SO, or dont favour SFXT may need a back-up game...and that will be SF4. dont $hit on it.
@151
yea your one of those trolls so dont even bother. read some comments and see how people are actually complaining about Seth too. idiot!
i dont understand when they say viper was i high risk high reward character. What is so risky about viper? She has good footsies with cr mk and cr mp. She can get out of the corner with sj cancel into burn kick and you cant do crap about it unless you want to take the risk of air to air which she can win with her long active frame fierce kick. so i ask again, WHAT IS SO RISKY ABOUT VIPER? 50/50 burn kick does a 100 dmg without any risks. To put in perspective sagats uppercut does a hundred dmg from the ground with HELLA risk. Her tk burn kick gives her + 7 on block. Did you just read what I said, +7 ON BLOCK!
@142
cammy was so broken when she had instant cannon strike that she dominated tournaments across the board right? O wait, she didnt. And all these buffs didnt mean anything, why else would everyone dro pher like a rock. Other people already explained why the cs's werent broken, ur just retarded. Let me guess, super street fighter 4 blanka was broken too right, and abel, and guile?
People like u shouldnt even be allowed to speak on the subject, u guys are the reason ae was filled with so many retarded nerfs. sf42012 needs to right all that and make more characters competitive on a tournament setting, Capcom heres a hint, go back to ssf4 and balance from there. From that point alot of characters can be left alone, the rest is small tweaks and buffs.
For people who didn't know Viper was like this since SF4, go look up videos of Uryo. Viper doesn't need nerfs, people need to sit down and learn how to play the match-up and counter her shennanigans. It's not easy, but she sure as hell is not broken. Gill is broken. KOF 96 Goenitz is broken. Viper isn't broken.
@fireinthehole is this same godsgarden where Momochi was beat by almost everyone, the same one that showed tokido had little knowledge of the match up that he picked up Cammy to learn her and has became consistent at beating Cammy after even with TKCS. The same one where most people know that she is a bad match up for Sim as well as Viper.
Finally the same godsgarden in which Daigo was in his rut and did make it tough for him which led to Daigo picking her up and get owned by Ryan Hart.
Please let me know I'm curious to see your response, btw Mago used U2 and it had the same effect like Latif did against Fuudo.
Nerf viper hard. nerf every character that ever made top 8 ever in any tournament ever. nerf blanka because that's a hard matchup for me. give everyone one punch and one kick button and no special moves. Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition Urban Champ Update. Do it!
So far the record Viper has remained the least untouched and I don't see that streak ending anytime soon. As for Seth give him his regular stomps back I don't see why that was ever changed.
1. "2012" instigates future updates. This is a good thing. Competitive games need to emulate real-sports and constant evaluation is a common element of real sports, thus balance changes should be our constant.
2. Anyone who reads my comments know that I'm all for balance and have said since Super that Fei/Viper and, though it's not EVO-based, Bison need nerfs. Not big ones, but Fei needs less recovery, Viper needs Akuma health and Bison needs to build less meter. Seriously, the guy gets a bar in three scissor kicks, that's not even hyperbole.
I welcome the changes. Some characters like Fuerte/Cammy/Guile feel nerfed but they were streamlined. I play Honda and I was more than willing to have his damage reduced in this version but the light headbutt really pissed me off. None of the whiner-characters (Ryu/Sagat) had nerfs that fundamental to his game, something he's had since the original WW. But I've learned to embrace it.
@156 I don't blame the community. The community has a valid reason to complain,t hey are customers just like you, your just on the otherside. You have a right to hold your own opinion but don't act like there is a problem with that.
I blame this so-called "Battle Director." Ever since SSFIV was first announced he's been a thorn in the community side. I never liked the excuse Ono-san gave when a certain character did'nt make it or a certain nerf/buff did'nt bold well.
- Certain characters never made the cut
- Unessesary Nerfs
- Unessesary Buffs
It seems the Japanese producer; in this case Ono-san, has done his best and I mean he broke a leg to try to get as many characters and features as possible in the game, but as he stated, when it comes to the combat and characters, it's up to the battle director.
BLAME THE BATTLE DIRECTOR! He is the one making these stupid decisions for the game, HE is the REAL TROLL. I never liked him and I honestly think the community needs to voice this.
@160
i think i remember the only nerf she got was to her boobs...and that was when they had a prototype of SF4 Vanilla. but thats all i can remember. and for Seth. yea that was a useless nerf. top players can still use it and make it hit 100%. and for people saying "wel its waz eazy fer N00bz." when was Seth a "boon" friendly character? lol
@163
HOLY*** did i just say BOON???
anyways you guys know what i meant lol.
And to everyone saying Viper is hard to play - so what? Journey does not determine outcome.
Top-player level is all that matters in tournament play. If I put the years into Honda/Hakan, I won't get the same level of outcome as someone who puts the work into Viper. And that's a balance problem no matter how you look at it.
Viper is a fast, high-risk character like Seth/Akuma and her health should be on their level to reflect that play style.
People also say that you can't abuse burning kicks. Yes you can, that was the whole point of the Daigo match. He could block but as long as Latif kept his cool, Daigo was locked. Unfair? No. But for how many times you have to predict it? Yes. Just like the Fuerte 50/50/50. No one complains that that was overpowered, but it was. It took away from Fuerte because he couldn't punish any other way. In this version he can play an honest to god ground game. That's what these balance changes are all about. Streamlining a playstyle and minimizing gimmicks.
Old SF games found ways around the gimmicks with more gimmicks and the best player will still do that. But we can do better now and work towards a very pure mind game that doesn't rely on exploits for effectiveness, just raw talent. That's what makes a good fighter.
I'm ashamed of you guys asking for a Viper nerf, are you serious? Do you not realize how hard Wolfkrone/Latif had to work to get on the big stage and fight top Japanese players with one of the hardest to master characters in AE? Viper is high risk because her combos are tight, low health, and if you guess wrong, you get hurt badly. How well Viper did is about the player, just as much as it is the character, not the other way around. Viper's mix-ups and good ultra combo are really all she has going for her, her normals aren't that good. Viper should be left alone, she is perfect. Difficult to master, effective when mastered. I think some of you are jealous you can't play that well with Viper, it's the only thing that makes sense.
Let me guess, Seth needs to be nerfed too? Please try to think a little more in depth.
"@Raven as much as I want it back it won't change it drastically especially if the Akuma picks U2 since he can hide it in his teleport."
I tend to agree with that, I didn't think Akuma's U2 would be as much of a game changer as it as been proven to been. It's basically a free teleport escape, which is frightening. However, that KD is still important against the likes of Sagat (who is just pure hell to get in on in the first place), Chun-Li, Dhalsim, etc. (But I believe you are aware of this already).
Balance changes should buff the weaker characters and by buff, I mean give them options that allow them to fight better in bad match-ups. Not peppering useless crap on their moves that won't really do anything. I don't think Yang is OP, he isn't proven to be. Fei/Yun need to be tweaked (not heavily nerfed) and zoners should get back their tools that make them competitive. Every character should have their ideal options, there's no other way to have a balanced fighting game (even though it'll never be 100% balanced).
@155
I stopped reading after "Viper has good footsies" lol
@165 What you forget is that Viper has sh!t defense. All her options can be beat easily. Worse case scenario she has to burn a bar to try and get out. Akuma and Seth have better defensive options because they do have teleport's but most importantly the have good dp's. You can throw Viper out of her AA Thunder Knuckle.
Oh and why werent you complaining about her in Super. Shes been the same since Vanilla (outside of a Burn Kick nerf in super)? Seems to me that you dont know anything about the game but like to complain alot.
Ok here are the buffs needed for cody and rose...
Cody: ex knife throw that goes through a non ex projectile
Light and medium zonk safe on block
Slightly better back dash
Aplha 3 rocks...there to slow in ssf4
juggle 2 crack kicks like in alpha 3
Rose: needs her old u2 back...she gets bodied in the corner now...absolutely no wake up game now
her close standing medium kick needs to be an overhead
Damage output increase on combos
All 3 soul throws need invinsibility frames like the ex version
And no I am not trolling
@163 yeah her boobs didn't need a nerf she's a milf. :)
The biggest problems that I've had with the twins are: Their wonky hit boxes and the raw damage that they put out. Seriously. One combo and my character's at 1/3rd her life. O_o That's messed up.
It seems that the twins... Yun I think it is?... has this hit box that extends way behind them, particularly on their dive kick and that rising kick / DP of theirs'.
I agree about punishing Fei on his rekkas. That seems like a pretty safe move to simply toss out there. Only the third punch is dangerous to toss out. It's no wonder that it's used so frequently.
Were I dreaming, I'd ask for Chun's standard SBK to actually be useful. Or at least replace it with something that's useful. Why is it in the game? It's not even worth comboing from or into. There are just far smarter, safer things to do.
@168
Clearly, you are a newb. Or illiterate. Because I clearly stated,
"Anyone who reads my comments know that I'm all for balance and have said since Super that Fei/Viper and, though it's not EVO-based, Bison need nerfs. Not big ones, but Fei needs less recovery, Viper needs Akuma health and Bison needs to build less meter. Seriously, the guy gets a bar in three scissor kicks, that's not even hyperbole."
So ... why wasn't I complaining in Super? I was. I saw this coming. I'm bringing it up again because there's another chance for me to get my point across.
@165
I agree completely with your post here. I made a thread a while back here in the eventhubs threads section: http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic...
And in this very thread, one of the moderaters in the eventhubs' forums called me out and said this:
"Theres a flaw in your argument when it comes to ease of use, in that it has nothing to do with it. For the record calling people noobs and scrubs on this forum is frowned on but condemning characters like Guile and rog to the bastion of nooby friendly will only upset players here that use Rog and Guile. When people claim Yun is broken none of them are suggestion he takes no talent to use (no one ive listened to anyway) The games balanced shouldnt be based off what online warriors levels are anyway it should always be based off High level play. By that logic viper the notorious execution heavy Character should be instantly top tier and she isnt.
Simply saying cause he isnt easy to use makes him balanced isnt true."
Basically what he was saying was that when it comes to the issue of balance and when it comes to who does or doesn't need to be nerfed, we should be looking primarily at the highest level of professional gameplay.
But now when it comes to nerfing Viper, people seem to have changed their minds a full 180 degrees. Viper clearly has tools which makes her a top-tier character when it comes to the highest level of gameplay, but now people are saying that those factors "don't count" because it only happens at the very highest level of gameplay.
Some of these people are the same crybabies who called for Yun to be nerfed because Yun dominates the highest level of gameplay. But when it comes to nerfing Viper, they say "only the top pros can exploit those tools, so it doesn't count." Hypocrisy at its best.
@Truly
And viper's defense isn't bad at all. Not by a long shot. I'm sure most low tier characters would love to trade.
Her EX-Pound is a great dodge that set ups her Ultra and biggest combos and Fierce TK is one of the best reversal attacks in the game as it has no hitbox on start up and can focus cancel to safety or get a free second hit on a jumping opponent.
Capcom needs to make zangief's light green hand safe on hit and/or block.There' s like only one use for zangief' s his light green hand.
Leave the game how it is! Personally I think it's fine but I'm not one to whine about buff & nerfs.
If we're basing balancing on the pro's, someone different has won a major in AE this year so it can't be that bad.
And speaking of the highlest level of gameplay. It's pretty clear that the Seth vs Yun match up is heavily in favor of Seth when it comes to the highest level of gameplay. I mean Poongko raped both Momochi and Daigo. Momochi and Daigo looked pretty helpless against Poongko. But Poongko didn't have such an easy time dominating Fuudo or Latif.
Now if people still say that the Seth vs Yun match up is in Yun's favor or if it's just 5-5, then you're saying that Momochi and Daigo are on a much lower skill-level than Poognko, Latif, and Fuudo. Something which I completely disagree with.
I think that Momochi, Diago, Fuudo, Poongko, and Latif are all on an equal level in terms of professional gameplay skills. And that the matches between Poongko's Seth vs Momochi and Daigo's Yun clearly shows that the match up is heavily in Seth's favor.
Now I'm exactly saying that Seth is top-tier. But I am saying that he is a horrible match up against Yun, which by itself does not make him a top-tier.
The point I'm trying to get across is that if Capcom's going to nerf Yun, they should also give Yun something back so he'll be better able to fight bad match ups such as against an aggressive Seth. Nerfing Yun's safe offensive options, but at the same time buffing his defensive options will do just that.
Yun will then have less favorable match ups, but he'll also be better suited to take on the characters who he has bad match ups against right now.
@Grimmjow316
Hey buddy have you forgotten your own words from around 2 weeks back???
Let me refresh your memory and give you a little heads up about what you said in regards to nerfing Yun. These are your words here:
"Man I just realized the biggest flaw in your argument you take casual play into account if you are going to anylize AE you take the highest level of play casual is meaningless and it's sad but true as good as some people play online it doesn't mean much if you aren't up there face to face."
You made that comment in this thread here: http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic...
And now are you joining forces with the scrubs who saying that Viper should not receive any nerfs because most of the tools that make her OP are "hard to pull off" and that "only the pros can use them on a regular basis" so thus the tools that make her OP "doesn't count"???
Have you completely changed your mind about analyzing SSF4-AE now that one of the characters that you personally like is under scrutiny as needing to be nerfed?
Viper's defense is not good. At least half the cast has better reversals than Viper on wake-up. You can safe jump EX Seismo and fierce TK AND you can option select EX Seismo such that the Viper player needs to keep burning meter by doing EX Seismo canceling to ever throw it out as a reversal. Fuudo did just that during EVO if you were watching closely. Meaty crouch short > throw while Latif was waking up and Latif had to feint EX seismo and tech a throw. If he didn't do that, ex seismo would have been stuffed by the throw. On top of all this, you can throw her out of her reversals. Viper needs two meters to reversal without taking very big risks and she has no good countermeasures against cross-ups. Her defense is not the worst, chars like Dudley and Makoto have worse defense, but it's not good.
@183
So many pros felt that the TKCS was a tool that made her broken to the point that much of the SSF4 roster was dead in the waters against her, and here you are telling me that "Cammy was never broken" providing zero back up evidence and no reasoning what-so-ever.
Don't take it personally, but I have my reasons for why I will not take your word for it.
Why did Alioune and Sakonoko change characters? Maybe it's because Cammy dropped from broken-tier --> A-Tier and A-Tier just isn't high enough to satisfy those guys.
Whenever Daigo and Mago changes characters, people call them out as being tier-whores. But people don't say the same for explaining why Alioune and Sako dropped Cammy.
So people who want to nerf Yun are scrubs yet people who don't want to nerf Viper are scrubs? I'm confused here then what is your case of Guile and TKCS can also be seen as a scrub argument by others.
I watched the tournament I play casuals with friends an know she isn't anywhere near OP she's got good tools but not the best as some others also her wake up is pretty suspect.
@185: And here YOU are telling us 'so many pros' felt the TKCS made her the best character in the entire game, without offering any proof of this, or explaining why so few people used her.
Then you insinuate oh-so-subtly that Alioune and Sako are tier-whores and I'm left shaking my head.
(By the way, whatever happened to your racism mantra?)
@ 185
You say Cammy's TKCS are better than Yun's dive kick and that makes her broken. Who cares, the input for the TKCS isn't easy. The move is NOT noob friendly and it's the only good move she had.
And Sako a tier whore? That's probably why he's maining Ibuki now and she's not even close to the top of the tier list.
Capcom: A word of advice. People have been playing the SF4 series for 3 years now. The problem with AE isn't that it's unbalanced but that you didn't put enough new stuff in it. You gave us 4 new characters, and some buffs and nerfs.
That's not enough to compensate for the year of hard work people put in to learn Super. In Super you gave us ten new charas, new ultras and nerfs and buffs. Something similar should of been in AE and you'd have a lot less complaints.
People basically got bored with AE a few months after you released it, because there weren't enough new stuff, and a lot of what they learned and liked in super had been taken away.
So ignore all these whiners and start working on Street fighter 5 instead.
Samurai, it just came to my attention that Makoto has a Tiger-Knee Tsurugi. As of now, she is immediately the most broken character in the game. Forget that she has terrible defense, is almost a pure 50/50 character with basically nothing guaranteed, and the SF4 engine doesn't even cater to her play style. She is wtf-tier. Forget this this Cammy argument and help me start the nerf Makoto petition!!!!
@189
SAMURAI, please read posts #175 and #182 of mine. When it comes to nerfing Yun, people have said that the very highest level of gameplay should be considered whne looking into the question of whether or not Yun needs nerfs.
But now when it comes to Cammy, the same logic does not apply? No double-standards here please. Double-standards such as analyzing characters differently whne looking into the possibility of nerfs is not balanced nor is it fair.
Sure, I'll admit that TKCS was slightly harder to pull of than Yun's divekicks; but any pro player should have a fairly easy time pulling it off when and where they want to do it. Being slightly harder to execute than Yun's divekick does not make the move "hard to pull off."
BTW, I completely disagree with your assertion that the move was "NOT noob friendly" because it was VERY noob friendly.
DarkSamus, the kanji in the title say "Development Decision".
Also, people need to stop generalizing. Not everyone is bored of AE. I feel like, and I may very well be wrong about this, that the people who got bored of AE are the ones that got nerfs to their character and immediately dismissed the game as wtf Yun and Yang without bothering to think of counter-strats for them. I play Dudley. He got on good buff, a couple of questionable/useless buffs, a decent new move, and lost something really awesome that he had in Super. I still enjoy this game. I'm sure there are many more people like me around too.
please give ryu his crouching forward (medium kick) back
that is all
As a longtime Cammy player before I switched to Cody, trust me, TKCS was too strong. It offered too much mix-up and blockstun for what it was. From what I have played of her, Cammy still has many of the tools she needs to contend.
EX-cannon strike is all Cammy needs to win in addition to her strong damage, maneuverability and combos. Don't underestimate her as she is. There is far more to Cammy than TKCS.
@ 193
You said this in post 142:
"Capcom did just that, and lots of online scrubs are now crying and saying that Cammy is "a$$-tier" in AE. These scrubs are not happy with the fact that Cammy has to play fair and square now and would much rather go back to the days of doing the cheesy TKCS spams."
You're saying that online scrubs (noobs) abuse it. In thousands of online fights I have never faced a online scrub who abused the TKCS. No, it was NOT noob friendly.
And even if it's easy for pro players. They won't get far with only that move. Once again, Cammy needs the TKCS, especially in high level gameplay because it's her only good move.
@ 197
No, TKCS is not Cammy's "only good move." She has hooligan combination, an awesome move that can be applied sparingly as wake-up pressure, or thrown out smartly to surprise the opponent. Getting dp-ed out of it means you're being obvious or predictable.
Regular cannon strike still offers good advantage and pressure even with its height restrictions; coupled with her LK crossup, she still applies strong frametraps (even more with her buffed normals) high damage and movement.
Well spaced spiral arrows can be made safe at the tip, and EX bypasses fireballs. Cammy can bypass almost any fireball game with meter.
She has one of the strongest Dp's in the game in terms of priority, and it combos into ultra.
And for meter, Ex-cannon strike allows her to change the angle of her jumping assaults into a massive +frame hit that can be combo-ed into ultra when hitting the opponent's feet.
Her ultra and super also shutdown fireballs and her 6 frame startup super can punish a lot of moves on block. Add new frametraps and combos, and you have a character who is a beast up close, despite her average footsie game.
Cammy is A tier for a damned good reason.
I forgot spinning backfist. Cammy has so many ways around a projectile game, and she -still- has TCKS with EX-cannon strike. It's not like the move is gone, it just costs meter now, and it's still just as scary because now you don't know for sure when it will come.
"People basically got bored with AE a few months after you released it"
Where'd you get that from? ha :S
@196
Holy sh1t. Is this the same AuLord who dominates at GuardCrush???
If so, then these online noobs should really STFU and think twice when they call out for Capcom to give Cammy her TKCS back.
Anyways, I'd like to thank you for being one of the few people at eventhubs who actually speaks with integrity. Someone who gives his honest opinions on these matters rather than just spew a bunch of lies in order to manipulate the producers at Capcom into making their own favorite characters be the most OP.
@200
Yea, but costing a meter and being meterless makes it big difference especially when it comes to noobs who love to spam the TKCS.
Costing a meter has a HUGE factor in shutting down the spam mode. You can't spam something that costs a full EX-bar, but you could easily spam something that's meterless though.
Yun deserves to be tweaked because his moves make him safe and nearly unbeatable in certain match-ups.
Viper's tools are give and take (great specials, mediocre normals) and they have to be guessed right. You can't just spam stuff with Viper or her moves just give her a ton of safeness. Anyone who plays Viper would know this. It takes a tremendous amount of "right" guesses to get anywhere with her, dumbing down any aspect of her game would make the work it takes with her to not even be worth it.
She is competitive, not OP or bad. That's how all characters should be. The only reason people are calling for nerfs is because she's getting exposure. Most players online are simply not talented enough or don't have the will to pick her up, so her spamming an attack online is simply out of the question. If top players who are fighting Viper don't feel she's OP, you shouldn't just from watching a video. At least fight a good Viper before you make such a claim.
If you can't beat her, it's a situation of your lack of knowledge, don't try passing the blame to the character. Place it on yourself, because you know it isn't valid.
Yes, it's me. I don't think that people are spewing lies or anything. I think that a lot of Cammy players or victims of her think that TKCS is the be-all/end-all of Cammy. She is a much more versatile character beyond just TKCS.
I struggled to learn that move on pad for a very long time until my execution got up to par. By then, I was learning work around it, or with EX-cannon strike a lot more. EX-CS can do everything TKCS can do, and at the moments where it will count the most.
She's a great character, and all of her moves rock for one reason or another. The flaws she has are her low health and her average mid-range normals, plus the fact that she can't do anything from long range. Up close, she dominates, and with her new tools as well as fast foot speed and throw game, she's still an amazing character.
I don't claim to know everything, but what I'm stating is merely opinion. If Cammy players feel TKCS is a core necessary to her game, I could be wrong, but in my experience, I feel like it was a tool she had, not the basis of her game.
TKCS isnt her only good move your rite but i dont see what the problem would be by adding it back in again??alot of her combo damage has decreased anyway. Now its more difficult to build meter to even use the EX TCKS. If she was still as strong as u guys say i'd doubt Sako and Allione would have dropped her
@ 207
Well, if they add TKCS back in, they'd better take away all the buffs she got. Close FP into crouching MP, MK spiral arrow... double crouching MP spiral arrow. Close FP, Far FP spiral arrow, and the decreased frame speed would make her -way- too overpowering.
As for Viper nerfs, she's fine. They only thing I'd change is the damage on her U1. Scale it back by 50 damage or so. It has way too many setups. It can remain as a comeback factor move, but I just think its too hard hitting for a character with those kinds of options, even if she is high execution. Otherwise, leave Viper untouched.
@208
I agree. Thankyou again for your integrity AuLord.
Throughout my posts, I've been emphasizing the fact that Capcom has given Cammy SO MANY buffs in other areas to make up for the loss of the meterless TKCS. Taking away TKCS and giving her buffs in other areas basically made Cammy go from broken-tier --> A-Tier.
Even you, who is a well-known tournament player that uses Cammy, admits that the TKCS was "too strong." I honestly thought that TKCS was so strong to the point that many characters were dead in the waters against it.
It's really quite entertaining watching this here. We have a well-known tournament player who is giving his honest opinion about a character that he once used, Cammy. And we also have lots of scrubs who are just saying what ever is needed in order to manipulate the producers into making Cammy become the most OP character in the upcoming version of AE-2012.
Wait, so is this going to be released IN 2012, or RIGHT BEFORE
Coming from the same scrub who thinks viper needs nerfs. The irony.
oh man, sorry no idea how I posted so prematurely.
If any mods see that, please erase #211.
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Wait, so is this going to be released IN 2012, or RIGHT BEFORE 2012 therefore effectively making it "2012 version" leading into 2012. I really hope whatever they're planning for balance changes, doesn't take over another full year to release.
@212
Hey dimwit. I guess you completely missed post #182, which was directed straight at you. Anyways, I'll just copy and paste it here in case if you missed it the first time around:
"@Grimmjow316
Hey buddy have you forgotten your own words from around 2 weeks back???
Let me refresh your memory and give you a little heads up about what you said in regards to nerfing Yun. These are your words here:
"Man I just realized the biggest flaw in your argument you take casual play into account if you are going to anylize AE you take the highest level of play casual is meaningless and it's sad but true as good as some people play online it doesn't mean much if you aren't up there face to face."
You made that comment in this thread here: http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic...
And now are you joining forces with the scrubs who saying that Viper should not receive any nerfs because most of the tools that make her OP are "hard to pull off" and that "only the pros can use them on a regular basis" so thus the tools that make her OP "doesn't count"???
Have you completely changed your mind about analyzing SSF4-AE now that one of the characters that you personally like is under scrutiny as needing to be nerfed?"
And I replied yet you just skipped it over not my fault also just put tetras post etc to many walls of text.
Sorry for the bad english:
As a Cammy player I agree that the TKCS its a broken move and I am OK that they removed it but at least give her old HK Spiral arrow back cause I cant even FADC to safety in case they block it from a cr.MK and I dont know why they changed it the first place or give her a slightly lower height restriction on her CS to apply some pressure after all she's a rushdown character.
Well that's my opinion, what do u all think?
@217
Yes, I'd agree with the HK spiral arrow going back to the way it was, but it might make her damage in combos go a little too high. That said, I do think the extra FADC time allows you to catch yourself if you mess up a combo. I'm not sure about it, but I think it'd be okay.
The lower height restriction would be nice, but I think she's fine as she is. With the package she is now, a buff might make her too dominating. I don't know.
Been playing as Dictator since SF2:CE, I have stuck with Dic all through SFIV. I have loyalty to my character. I don't want to use Fei Long, C. Viper, Yun or Akuma.
I would very much appreciate Bison actually having at least one viable anti-air for the instances that a character is directly over Bison's head/going for a cross up. No, not the crap standing close fierce that exchanges hits, not the super slow start up crouch fierce and not relying on FADC either. Bison shou;ld be able to defend himself from airborne opponents with out having to rely on meter for an EX-PC or EX-KP. Simply speeding up the start up time of his crouching fierce punch would help drastically.
If you guys and gals thought his scissor pressure was too much, I'll trade you an even faster Psycho Crusher and an even faster foward dash, and Bison can keep the push-back off short kick scissors and the reduced damage between vanilla and now. Otherwise how is he supposed to be the risk-taking, aggressive rush-down character he seems to be designed to be? If you take all of his pressure tactic from him Capcom, you only make him more lame and defensive and then everyone will still complain about Bison "just sitting at down-back" all day.
Don't talk to me about spacing, a character shouldn't have to use shenanigans even to swat down a normal jump in. Name another character that is so without viable anti-air normals and specials without trading constantly?
Improve the hit-box and/or tracking on Head Stomp.
Allow Skull Diver after headstomp to cross up.
Allow Devil Reverse to land in front of or behind an opponent.
Speed up Psycho Crusher and make EX-Psycho Crusher do 3 to 4 chip damage hits on block like Old School Bison, so the damned thing is more safe!
Return Ultra II to a 2xQCF motion, please!
I think this update should focus on buffs for every character, if Bison even got half these buffs and the rest of the cast got whatever buffs, I'd be happy!
For God's sake stop nerfing characters into oblivion!!!!
Don't even nurf Yun and Fei, just bring everyone up to their crazy level.
If you have to do something revolutionary, like make Dictator a motion-based character and not a charge character, to give him better rush-down abilities and make him less lame, do it!
Characters that could use large BUFFS: Rose, Vega, T. Hawk, Fuerte, Hakan, Gen, Dan, Oni, Guy
Characters that could use small BUFFS: Cammy, E. Ryu, Juri, Guile, Dhalsim, Ryu, Dudley, Blanka, Gouken, Abel, Cody
Characters that don't need to be changed: Ken, E. Honda, Ibuki, Makoto, Rufus, Chun- Li, Akuma, C. Viper, M. Bison, Sagat, Adon, Balrog, Dee Jay
Characters that need small NERFS: Seth, Zangief, Yang, Fei Long
Characters that need large NERFS: Yun
@222 - Totally disagree, and it's not going to be helpful to just say "buff this character, nerf this character, leave this character alone" if you can't at least be botheres to give reasons for why you think so.
So as you can see, I think the next iteration of SFIV needs much more buffs than nerfs. I think we can all agree on that!
I felt like with AE, a lot more nerfs were dished out, making a lot of characters not as fun to play as in Super! MAKE ROSE MORE FUN TO PLAY WITH! GIVE US MORE OPTIONS. :)
Yeah, I could go into explaining why they need buffs but that requires of time... Time that I don't have right now. I just wanted to give an overview of the direction I'd like to see 2012 Edition to go. Basically, make the least used characters more usable and fun to use!
Well honestly I understand, but not that many people even play Bison any more, online or in tournaments. Do you really think Cody needs small buffs? Do you really think people aren't using him much??? All I fight over here in Japan on PSN are:
Cody, Akuma, Oni, E.Ryu, Yun, Fei Long, Gief, Ken and Sakura players. In the arcades it's nothing but Yun, Fei, Gief, Sagat, C.Viper, Yun, Yun and Fei.
I have literally only played 5 other Dictators on PSN since AE dropped and ONE in the arcades.
I think we agree on the more buffs than nerfs.
Just give us back original SFIV Bison with the addition of Super SFIV's 2xQCF Ultra II.
I'm not even asking for a target combo! God forbid Bison should have to get damage any other way besides pokes and chip damage and the occasional come-back ulra!
I was actually only referring to the characters that could use major buffs who I'd like to see more of, like Rose, Gen & Hakan. Looking back at the list, Oni shouldn't be in that category, I'd say he only needs small buffs.
I don't necessarily need to see anymore of the characters who need small buffs... lol... Well, maybe besides Cammy, Abel, Juri, and Gouken. I just think they could benefit from getting a few small buffs to make them more fun to play and a bit easier to compete with! Oh and I somehow missed Sakura... She doesn't need any changes.
Yeah and you're probably right about Bison, he did get much worse in AE.
give fuerte a double jump like Captain America. dont worry about giving him back the moves they nerfed pointlessly. just give him a double jump...like captain america.
Yea and give captain america a triple jump. I mean come on, he is captain america even if the game is made in japan.
is THAT all? what about the 2 remaining characters that are missing? did you remove them and put them into SF X Tekken or are they still locked?
there are 2 slots missing, do something about it Capcom
People should dress up as nerfed characters and fight each other in real life, then once they find something wrong with the match-up they should post up suggestions. Other then that, adjust to the game. If you cant, play super puzzle fighter 2 and let the characters do the fighting for you!
Adjusting to the game is an obvious given. No one needs to be told to "adjust to the game". What? Did you think some people are born "pre-adjusted" to playing video games? Really? Or perhaps you know of some Street Fighter gene and you are keeping it a well-guarded secret? Really? Otherwise: DUH! When playing a video game such as SF one must "adjust to the game". No one is asking for an SP button like in the iPhone version, no one is asking for macros touch buttons like the 3DS version, no one is asking for easy mode. Some of us merely want the characters moves to do what they are supposed to do!!! Really!? "Adjust to the game"!!!! Really?
I main Vega and I'm okay with the changes they made in AE. I mean, I don't know the frame data but it sounds fair that they nerfed the launch kick so you had to use better spacing and bait throws a bit more.
WHAT I WOULD like to see is his Ultra 1 and Super buffed. Not because "OMGZ I CAN'T PLAY VEGA AND NEED HELP!". No I want to have them buffed because they are considered by most players to be very useless - and as they are why the hell did they waste that time in making them to begin with?
It would be nice to see Ultra 1 somehow have a buff so it can be used as an AA - which Vega is notoriously bad against. Maybe his "game" changes a little where he can control air a bit better when he gets it?
Also missing the Izuna super which can be outwitted very easily is very annoying. I'd like to see (like In SF2) his super not loose his super if he misses - perhaps this would in practiced be unfair but I don't think when it was practiced in SF2 that it was considered a very good super to begin with anyway...
dhalsim was fine in super. truly, with the exception of some obvious chars, super was balanced pretty good. sims new health is fine but it'd be nice to see a little of that super dmg back. maybe slightly faster divekicks, and a little help out of the rushdown situation that destroys him in the ae rushdown fashion.
@217: I think it should stay the same.
1. Her combos are more intersting now, and you can find character specific combos where the hk arrow hits twice, or you get good damage off of the combo anyway from linking a lot of normals. In fact just because of the superior hit-confirms she may do more damage across a given fight even though the damage of a single combo is sometimes less... I also like how the arrow will cross over more, not just in the corner. I hope that stays.
2. Try ex arrow. It's now like Juri's pinwheel or Rufus' tornado (but better), i.e. you spend the meter to do the damage. It hits twice off of almost any combo. People just didn't use it for damage because the hard version's damage made it redundant.
I am confident that the people at Capcom will do there best to make the game as balanced as it can be. Looking forward to it.
continuing support for their games with free patches and updates is great and gives me alot more confidence in capcom as a company, crap like ultra mvsc3 a new version of a game that just came out 6 months ago with only a few minor updates does not... its crap like that that killed off fighting games in the first place they just burn people for being early adopters
just fix fuerte please. i would like to see 3 frame start up for ultra 2 back and maybe a new target combo to link into guacamole also make guacamole a more viable anti-air please.
@244
Other then the standing jab nerf hes the same and his jab was retarded to begin with. What they needed to do was nerf the jab(maybe plus 3 on block, like bisons) and then change his rush punchs so that the low/overheads come out alot faster(he would lose the ability to combo off of overhead rush punch but the ex overhead should give him enough frames to link a jab) and change the animation so that balrog starts to swing high/low/overhead alot closer to the other fighter. With that we would get some decent mix ups so now it would be alot harder to spot where the punchs are goin.
THats what i would have done with balrog.
Damn how people dare to cry about character that are still on high ranks like balrog, bison, chun, zangief or honda, when characters like t.hawk, el fuerte, hakan and dan are very poor in options. (no to mention medium ranked like rose, vega, dudley,etc.)
I hope balrog stay the same cuz now some characters have better opportunities agains him, and damn hes jabs are the best on the game, people want low risk- high reward, ohh and can combo into ultra from jab without ex meter, people need to suck in this game if cry about balrog, he is still one of the best characters in the game damn, better go with another character
yes Im mad -_-
@251
while i agree with todays players(dont forget alot of these players are also old enough to remember the past) are too quick to whine and beg for nerfs, this isnt back in the days when capcom didnt know what they where doin(its still questionable) and u could learn advanced tactics over the internet from youtube or sites just like this one.
I think its fair that the players demand balance, but at the same time they must be prepared to actually LEARN the freaking game.
I'm bored and in bed so I'll just make a list of changes that in my opinion would be great. I'm a Akuma/Seth/Cody player and I play mostly online and at arcades when I can and I'm trying not to be bias here and you can ask me for justification on why i think certain changes are necessary if you want.
THIS IS IMO!
ABEL = Give him his old roll back and his crouching fierce (or improved falling sky) and ultra 1 damage back.
Adon = Make his rise in between ae and super
Akuma = Keep same
Balrog = Give headbutt recovery from super and a bit more dmg on combo'd ultra (it really is pathetic)
Blanka = Only make fierce roll have the short distance recovery and possibly make his ex rainbow roll able to move a bit further back on block.
Cammy = Let her be able to fadc second hit on block of spiral arrow on block like aulord said
Chun Li = I think she is okay but maybe a bit more start up and less recovery on hazan shu so it's less focusable (due to invincibility from great backdash)
Cody = Make at least light punch zonk safe on block and or ex zonk safer on block.
C.viper = lower ultra damage by 50 or leave unchanged
Dan = Give him a charge fireball or at least a ex fireball that does not fade out. (only character to my knowledge who doesn't have one) and give back his Super ultra 2.
Deejay = Fine
Dhalsim = better backdash or some invincibility on ex upwards flame.
Dudley = give his dp some invincibility except lp.
E.Honda = Not sure, never used him before. Maybe a slight damage buff to be somewhere in between super and AE?
Elf = Never used before so not sure.
E.ryu = Faster startup sweep or add a untechable knockdown from light punch or something?
Fei Long = Nerf damage output of rekkas and flame kicks and standing fierce, fix the auto correct on flame kicks and make 2nd hit of rekkas have more recovery because some characters are free against rekkas.
Gen = give him back vanilla ex wall dive kick thing (invincible start up i think) or add more invincibility on ex upkick things because they get stuffed quite easily.
Gouken = give him his old counter attack back?
Guile = improve the dmg of ultra 2
Guy = Not sure, seems okay to me?
Hakan = not sure but maybe start round with light kick oil on?
Ibuki = Fine
Juri = Fine
Ken = escape air ex tatsu should have same sh1tty arc as the other tatsu's (not sure if its ex or normal as well)
Makoto = fine
M.Bison = Improve start up of crouching fierce
Oni = Fadc on blocked dp
Rose = Super U2 invincibilty back (She is free on wake up, ex spiral can be safe jumped/option selected against so can backdash and soul throw.
Rufus = buff ex messiah dmg.
Ryu = give him his old crouch mk back
Sagat = Fine
Sakura = Fine
Seth = Fix ultra 2 ( people keep dropping out of tornado on hit from anti air and after ex dp) Happened to poongko as well vs Online Tony at Combofiends house?
T.Hawk = No idea sorry.
Vega = Make the ultra 1 less screwed up (after hitting opponent from the rise, some characters fall out) not sure if its aa only or not but should be fixed.
Yang = Less meter gain from palms other than that his fine. (Maybe his dp should not roll under fireballs?)
Yun = Less/no framde advantage on ex lunge, less meter gain from palms, hk dp shouldn't go as far, less frame advantage on shoulder and slower start up lunge since it breaks armour as well.
Zangief = reduce range of spd and give back old exgh (knockdown version)
K that's it lol thats just my opinion from playing the game and I reckon it would make the game more balanced especially for the lower tier. I would much rather like buffing the lower tiers and keeping the top tier the same but then I would have to be making up so much sh1t and yeah. Cbf proof reading cause I'm sick and in bed so Imma sleep goodnight all :)
This is my opinion but I know I'm gunna get hate anyway so I'd be happy to justify whatever I've written to anyone that asks :)
Capcom and Ono Please get to the bottom of this and confirm this
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/no...
what about those 2 missing slots?
Suggestion
weak headbutt for honda upper invincible
Ultra 2 for honda the startup frame must be same as Zangief's Ultra 1
Honda fierce HHS must be given back to original damage level
EX orchit throw must add some invincible frames or increase tthe damage(220)
Make some combos into ultra for honda
*Chun-li needs a bit of a buff
*Cammy and Viper should have the same health as Chun-li
*Bison needs a definite nerf and speed reduce a bit.
*Sagat needs a nerf to his uppercut game.
*Ryu, Ken, Cody, and Guy should have similar health.
*Yun and Juri needs some fine tuning to their specials.
*Yang cr.lk needs to improved.
*Fei Long cr. lk needs a slight recovery reduction.
*Improve El Fuerte, add an addition special without a run.
couldnt they just of called it super