For those of you who want the quick and dirty version, here are some footnotes.
• Ono said that Street Fighter 3 Third Strike Online Edition will not be rebalanced, but the game will offer graphic enhancements and really harness the online element. Back in March, Capcom's Christian Svensson said that this game will cause Third Strike fans to wet themselves, so it sounds like we're still missing some big details here. An announcement about the game is expected this month at Captivate, and the embargo for information will be lifted on April 12.
• Answering a question about things that had to be cut or didn't make it into the games, Ono said he hoped to provide more tools for players to make tournaments online or organize an event at home, but this would require funding, which hasn't been approved.
• Yoshinori added that Street Fighter 4 hasn't reached the level of popularity that Street Fighter 2 experienced, and he's hoping to get even more of the people who used to enjoy the older game to get involved with the newer titles as well.
Submitted by Warthog.
@1 Im gonna assume your mad at the fact that they won't be rebalancing the game. SSF2HDR got some flak for rebalancing the game, it was a good attempt but many hardcore fans did'nt like the balance and made certain charactes stronger where others became weaker. They probably don't want the same problem with 3S Online.
The focus of 3S Online is that, ONLINE and it seems they are trying to make it as big as possible. I think they are aiming for a game to be playable online with many features for hardcore and casual.
Yeah there are gonna be a lot of Yun players but so what. Preserve 3S and I would love to see this graphical update soon.
good good. this is exactly what I and the majority of #S gamers wanted. better graphics, the best online (heres hoping) and absolutely NO REBALANCING!!
we want the game to be as original as possible. i dont care about the massive Kens Chuns and Yuns. ive already learned how to play againmst them. its time new comers do to
@3: "We want the game to be as original as possible."
One sentence later: "I don't care about the massive Kens, Chuns and Yuns."
Seems like a little bit of a contradiction to me.
I guess Ono wanted us to fight....
*puts on shades*
...Like Gentlemen.
@7
Sean decently balanced in 2i?
He was with Ibuki for top tier in that...
@1
Yes because we all know genei-jin is an easy super to master and doesn't require a ton of dedication to use. Oh yeah 3s players mash buttons all day.. (sarcasm)
I say the only balance that needs to be made are a certain key supers and they only need the slightest of nerfs.
Genei-jin needs to be longer by a bit, and needs faster consumption time that way it doesn't last longer due to the longer super bar.
Chun's SA2 needs to only have one bar not two.
and Sean and Twelve need buffs.. but I wouldn't even know where to get started with those guys.
Anyway the main focus should just be the revamped graphics and the online play. This game wasn't made for online play back then so it didn't translate well on the xbox when it had live capabilities, and it also doesn't do as well as it should on the emulators. I'm assuming they are either going to have ridiculously awesome online play or they're going to make the game more lenient to accommodate for the lag... I am really hoping it's not the latter.
Severely disappointing. The primary reason I would be interested in a Third Strike remake would be for playing a more balanced version of the game regardless of graphics. I thought that was what made most of the community lose interest anyway, people were sick of nothing but Ken and Yun etc. with only one viable SA each. It certainly made the game less fun for me that all the fighters I enjoyed were bottom tier.
Also it's incredibly unrealistic to think that SF4 would ever be as popular as 2, which was a cultural phenomenon in its own time and therefore not really possible to deliberately reproduce through imitation. To call later Street Fighter titles "failures" after 2 is like calling all of Valve's games after Half-Life 1 failures, or all albums after Thriller failures if you will.
Frankly considering how needlessly awkward the controls are and how little help new players are given in learning how 2d fighters work, I'm surprised 4 has done as well as it has.
@3: "its time new comers do to"
You're funny, thinking that you can have the original game and somehow expect to see newcomers. 3S's inability to attract newcomers (and detract some longtime players) is the reason it didn't sell. As much as I enjoyed it I think it's wishful thinking on the part of Capcom (and you) to expect significantly better results this time around.
no one knows why 3s didn't do incredibly well. market saturation and bad timing have as much to do with it as the game, if not more.
stop fabricating your own reasons.
"3S's inability to attract newcomers (and detract some longtime players) is the reason it didn't sell. As much as I enjoyed it I think it's wishful thinking on the part of Capcom (and you) to expect significantly better results this time around."
like this for instance.
Who are you and how do you know anything at all? 99% likely you know absolutely nothing more than I do. I'm not a japanese arcade owner from the 1990s/2000s. Or a US one either.
Are you? I doubt it. So don't act like you have any idea why a game underperformed. "it's hard lol" is not the reason.
THANK GOD. For all you haters, stop b*tching and just don't buy the game. If you think the game is about "mashing", stick to SF4. We don't want you scrubs populating online anyways.
Yay Chun not touched in the least. Now I can go back to enjoying Street Fighter.
Then whats the point of a new version? HD graphics?
If hardcore 3s players want no recalibrating and leaving all as it was then whats the point.Just slap some online modes to regular 3s(GGPO).
Players that want no balancing they main Yun,Chun,Ken and want to preserve their OP status.
What you guys afraid of balanced Oro,Remy,Sean...Ryu.
Post #12 by x_Who_Is_Alpha is the only one here that's not incredibly biased one way or another. The game seems fairly well balanced. I brought it in to college a couple weeks ago; my friends and I usually play SSF4 online and a good few of them got hooked right away - I had shown them vids of Hugo, Yun, Yang and Oro and they were itching to try them out. Even total newbs got the hang of it fairly quickly. HOWEVER not everyone got into it; one or two were disappointed that the SSF4 character they like to play (eg Blanka or Sakura) wasn't in it, and none of the SF3 characters felt "right". Others who also lacked their main (such as Vega) immediately found a character they gelled with (like Urien). So I would wager that the big reason SF3 didn't do well was because the new characters didn't accommodate all the playstyles that the old characters did. The Blanka player in particular couldn't seem to find a character he connected with.
Nevertheless, there's SOME imbalance to the game, and even something as simple as buffing Twelve out of crappiness and into mediocrity would be fine.
#22: It would be best for you not to speak for everyone. I have been playing Chun since II, did not know she was S ranked until years later by years I mean after the remake on PS2 and did not even know there was such a thing as tier list. So do not go around and go spouting off at the lips when you obviously do not have a right to speak for everyone. Learn to parry and you will be fine.
They gave everyone who did not like 3S were given HD remix, and are still being given Street Fighter IV's. Let the third strike fans have their moment. Not everyone wants change nor do they feel the game was unbalanced.
@ibLeo
But you're just wrong. The game is less balanced than almost every Street Fighter game ever made except for certain versions of SF2. There's a reason top 8 of literally every EVO past the first year was comprised of nothing but top tier characters with maybe the exception of one or two mid tier characters, none of which ever won.
Yeah, it kind of sucks it's not getting rebalanced, but the whole leaving it the same deal and likely addition of new content will deter whiners, so it's a smart move. People get really used to fighting top tiers anyway. However, as the first comment says, the fanboys shouldn't whine because of new content. It has to have SOME new incentives.
@Stubbs
Here's the deal. The only characters in the game that are completely dominant and shadow the rest are Yun and Chun-Li. If they nerf those two then everything else would fall into place, and I would also like them to nerf the unusable characters like Sean and Twelve.. sure you can try to use them but they are both just so terrible.
The fantastic thing about SFIII is that it's mostly dependent on skill, and the only reason that it doesn't seem so is because of those two completely dominant characters. If they were taken out of the equation people would have an entirely different opinion of the game.
What I'm trying to say is that the game isn't as unbalanced as you think, it's just that "only" 2 characters really meet the criteria of unbalanced and if they were to fix that then the game would most definitely be well received by anyone and everyone. That is unless people don't like the skill requirement to learn some of the lesser characters, but that aside it's a balanced game. I'm actually kinda confused why those two never got banned when Akuma was banned from HD. The tier listings for Akuma weren't even near as bad as the tier listings for Yun and Chun.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why 3rd Strike did badly....
Poor marketing + a new cast of characters (which, to old time players, didn't appreciate because they like characters they know) + an engine where only the technically winded can survive are some of the biggest reasons. 3rd Strike is a game that forces you to learn and as proven with the marketing strategy of SF4....people don't to play something that requires relatively little thinking and effort (at least on the American side). It has a natural higher barrier to entry due to its nature.
Now we see third strike coming back...this time with "good" marketing, but will do it well? That's the real question. I don't know, but I know 3rd strike is a game created for players who want to learn and apply effort, which does not apply to a majority of American (scrubby) players.
Graphical enhancements are obviously being used to attract new people, but longevity requires more than just that. 3rd Strike simply isn't a game for everyone, it's the reverse of SF4. lol
@24 Seriph Angel
Dude, thats just you being something called a scrub. You didn't know she was S tier for years? You still don't necessarily feel she is unbalanced? Super scrub.
@Ibleo
another super scrub? The point is that those characters are used in the first place because they are so damn good, they aren't so damn good because they are used.
Your basing your sh*t off of a damn frat, I mean common bro.
#43 The reason is because rank and all that did not mean anything. All I cared about was always improving my skill and whether if she was S rank or even Z rank never meant a thing to me because I was all about playing to improve and not playing because she was good on some unneeded chart. A scrub is someone who always needs everything handed to them and does not wish to learn and since I rather learn I beg to differ.
Nice attempt at using my lack of caring for these data charts you call tiers to smite my point but in the end it was a fail. Maybe you should do the same and not care about tier list, only relying on them to make your decisions and play to get better.
Damn it I want improve game with new characters in. Forget the oldish stuff. Jeez. Let's move on to new S H I T.
Well its a combination of good and accessibility actually, but Chun and Yun are pretty unbalanced, some would argue infuriatingly cheap if in a somewhat competent players hands. I think Dudley is the greatest though :)I luv me some Dudley.
#38
Wow, dude, dickride harder.
Your post is basically nothing but "3S is the thinking man's game, SF4 isn't, American players suck and are dumb so they can't appreciate 3S, a flawless game too good for this uncultured world."
When 3S came out, it was dead for the first 3 years. That was because it spat in the face of what SF is. People who started taking SF seriously with 3S and shout about the skill required to parry always forget that even though they provided all the awesome highlights you love like Daigo vs. Wong, they also led to a lot of matches looking like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlj3_t...
Look at that. No zoning, both players living in fear of OS parries and trying to play around them, and with all mixup being "throw/low poke that can be hitconfirmed into super/high-mid poke that can be hit confirmed into super."
That's a good game to you?
3S was a game that:
1) Had 17 7-3 matchups
2) Did supers in a way that was revolutionary but also promoted super homogeneity(how many times did you see Dudleys picking SA2?)
3) Had a cast of interesting, fresh-faced new characters, but half of them were below garbage tier and one of them was so OP that he was the only character who could beat 3S Chun
4) Had OS Parries, which makes all the people who call SSF4 Ultras "bs comeback factor" look silly because parries were the most comeback of comebacks and due to OS parrying they were actually very easy to do
The beauty of SF is that you DON'T need raw technical skill to survive(and I'm not even going to bother pointing out how 3S is actually less technical than you think). There is a character for everyone in 3S. If you like playing footsies there are characters for it. You like zoning? There are characters. You like rushdown? There are characters. Mixups? There are characters for that too. You like doing it all? Play Ryu. There is someone for all playstyles and a weakness in one area won't hold you back if you can find the character for you. In 3S it was "lol play Yun/Chun or lose unless you are basically a god able to win DESPITE the character, not WITH them." Awesome game, bro.
Also, just want to add: Hsien Chang and Viscant, two pro players(with Hsien Chang being arguably the best 3S player in America for a while) have written whole essays about why 3S sucked. Are you going to tell me those guys are scrubs? That they just lack the patience to appreciate 3S? Nigga please.
I like 3S, but I hold no illusions that it was a flawed and broken game.
@SeriphAngel
I don't care about tier lists, I think people focus too much on them, and real scrubs or just complainers often use them as excuses. But if you mained her for years, didn't realize that she had amazing tools and was really powerful, and still don't see how she has an advantage over most of the cast, thats pretty damn scrubby brah :/
Wether she gets nerfed or not, I am still buying the game, I personally could care less. But if she does get nerfed a bit, it would be reasonable and I could definitely see why.
As far as I'm aware 3SO is designed for 3S players. Why change it if that's what they're use to playing? If they balanced 3SO it would just split the 3S community like it did with ST and HDR. All this game is suppose to be is 3S with online capabilities. No need to reinvent the wheel.
#49: Did not say I did not notice the awesome she owned. I am saying that is not why I play her. I play her for the main pupose oh her being Chun. Like I said they have nerfed, buffed, ruined, characters in every other Street Fighter and even made a Street Fighter II remake for people who did not like 3S and IV for did not like it neither. Leave the formula alone for those who want their version of a blast from the past. That was the whole reason they made the other SF because everyone bitched about 3S so bad. So if those same people still wish to bitch about it even after all this other crap Capcom did then they may as well drown for the 3S fans had to deal with everything else before now.
Next week: Oni announcement, next month: probably AE announcement for Juni. Seems like a perfect schedual
#52
If you want to play 3S, then fine. It's a nice game and no one is going to bust your chops for liking it. Everyone is happy about 3S Online.
But don't be insulting and talk like you have a giant persecution complex because herp derp "3S fans had to deal with everything else before now." SF2 fans had to deal with having Capcom put out 10 versions of their game when games could only be in cart form for 60-70 dollars apiece back when the minimum wage was 5 dollars an hour. SF2 fans had to sit through 10 years of 3S. Then HDR. Let's talk about Guilty Gear and KOF fans too. Or Darkstalkers.
Everyone suffers, you aren't suffering any more than anyone else. It just makes you sound insecure.
#54: To bad that I am one of those fans then. I still have to wait to play another Darkstalkers, another KoF, another Guilty Gear. So again invalid. I am waiting just like anyone else to play with a properly made Morrigan that is not in a cross over, a Millia Rage with new color pallettes and techniques, an Athena who did not blow up due to bon bons, and SF II fans now have IV(some of them at least, not really a four fan.) Nothing insecure here I am afraid. I just want 3S back like any other game or at least a release of Rival School. Either one would do.
As someone who played the the arcade era in Toronto where 3s had a very strong tourney scene from 202-2008 and on average TOSF 3s tourneys used to get 3 times the entrances than MvC2 …..WHAT THE HELL!!1
Waiting 6 years to release this game but not rebalancing it is so stupid. Even if they only did meter/damage adjustment would be fine. If there is no rebalancing and they just want to make the game look sexy it will die out so fast.
In Toronto most peoples mains were high-mid or mid tier characters but everyone had a top tier as their secondary because at a certain lv there is no point trying to learn match ups a 3-7/ 2-8 is a 3-7/ 2-8 and you are forced to “counter pick” a top tier with another top tier so at least its even and you don’t get randomed by a Montreal or NYC tier why used to come to our tourney in the summer.
Chun Li has 7-3 and 8-2 matches with the entire mid-tier of 3s for gods sake. This game will die so hard, vets like me will destroy the newcomers with top tiers so hard the SF4 kiddies wont know what hit them.
I’m a tournament player so I don’t give a **** about this game getting casual play I want to see it in tourney again and I want to see new players come to 3s but not rebalancing it and making it all shiny is not the way.
#57 it was actually due to people believing all people pick Chun for power and pirority purpose. Also the fact that people always looking for things to be changed. The Chun thing I took as an insult is all.
I just want the chance to play the damn game against the "community" since Maine's lack of a cohesive SF community sucks harder than our current governor.
I own the game on Dreamcast and look forward to finally getting a chance to play against pros.. From what I can tell, it seems like the hardest of hardcore are super protective of this game in the same way horror geeks elevate ALL of Romero's movies.
As someone who is just grateful to be a part of all this, can't we just agree that any Street Fighter getting exposure to the mainstream is a good thing?
#61
The Dreamcast version is 3S ver. B, aka ONE OF THE WORST CONSOLE PORTS OF A FIGHTING GAME EVER. They tried to "fix" things but made it worse. Example: Urien has no unblockables, even though unblockables were Urien's thing, so Urien is like F Tier in 3S verB.
Anyway I wouldn't say 3S is the game that the "hardest of hardcore" protect. That would be Super Turbo, Darkstalkers, and Virtua Fighter.
@1 i'll fap on ur face. watch ur mouth when ur talkin bout 3s
so we wants fans of the older games to get involed with the new stuff? heres a hint, stop baby modeing everything. Most sf4 players have a hard time doin dragon punchs in older games, thats really really says alot right there.
#61: Now Darkstalkers is something I really love. No freeze frames, damage scaling was superb and all characters had something working for them. That was a real game. Virtua Fighter is another good one I still have to relearn to play.
#62
The main problem with the DC port of 3s wasn't the removal of infinites it was the input lag. The input lag caused a few 1 frame links to not work in the DC ver and also made a bunch of juggle combos with Yun, oro, urien, dudley impostable or very hard.
@ Ono no Capcom fighting game will ever be as much of a success as SF2, back then almost everything you did was BRAND NEW and other companies were scrambling to keep up.
now Capcom has legitimate competitors when it comes to the fighting game market, and fans who have pledged their allegiance to other franchises at this point(even Capcom's own).
im not trying to talking down about any game, im just saying times have changed and Capcom isn't the only fighting game manufacturer anymore and thus probably wont reach that same level of popularity(imo anyway). not to mention the whole allure of arcades when they were thriving.
@62
I'm just going off what I've been reading for the last few months since this game was announced. As for the 3SvB That's the only one I got to play ^^. (and I hated the DC controller for that game.. say it with me, blisters!!)
When 3SO comes out, I'll look forward to hearing what you guys think.. and I'll do my best not to embarrass myself.
The x-factor for Street Fighter 3 is parrying.. Period. If you are good at parrying, you have the chance to win any match..
So all that talk about being a " tournament player" bs is thrown out the window.. See ya scrubs online when the game comes out
@70 that pretty much sums it up, if your good at Parrying, your gonna be good with any character no matter what. I doubt X-Factor is a good comparison because Parrying requires skill and risk and if you miss, your done; you can miss a few times with X-Factor and still get lucky cuz of the speed boost and frame advantage.
I've seen some beasty Hugos', Seans', even Twelves' and everyone in Japan does'nt always play Chun Li and Yun. The whole Chun and Yun thing is a Western mentality because these are the characters you play to win tournaments but it does'nt mean they beat you automatically, play the player not the character; guess their mix up right and Yun and Chun will hurt big time.
I will say though that Online will have to be really gdlk because parrying is a big part in SF3 and if your fighting lag, many characters you'd normally could beat will have an edge on you cuz they can spam things you can't react to.
#71
Wow dude, no.
You have no idea how good Chun/Yun are in 3S. This isn't like SSF4 where Chun is just really solid. Chun is just straight up superior by orders of magnitude over the entire cast, with so many safe options that it is almost impossible to read her and hard to even OS Parry her, not to mention she has one of the most godlike option selects ever created.
And then, Yun is better then her.
Yeah, some incredible Q player like TM or Kuroda can beat even pro Chuns, but they are the exception, and they are going REALLY above and beyond when they win that matchup. Chun and Yun are like boss fights. And it isn't a "Western mentality," because it is well known that those characters are stupidly strong in Japan too.
Also fishing for a random parry is not that hard.
@68 You don't give Ono the credit he deserves. While there is more competition in the fighting game community (games) no fighter has reached more people this century than SF4. Look, it's on Xbox 360, PS3, PC, IPHONE, Arcades, and now Nintendo 3DS. This is'nt about getting people to play at tournament level which is what most people assume is Capcoms goal which it is NOT. It is about massive branding of the title. Blazblue, Mortal Kombat, Tekken have yet to accomplish this since the 90's and blazblue is too new.
With SFIV on almost all platforms now and different versions, everyone knows about Street Fighter 4, so it's only a matter of time for it to reaches that level of popularity. Keep in mind he said Popularity, not sales numbers; big difference.
#74
It's pretty hard to update the graphics for the most beautifully animated sprite-based game ever(until maybe Skullgirls comes out, because that seems up there).
Plus even if it was done, AE still hasn't hit console and Marvel 3 just came out. I'm sure Capcom doesn't want to cannibalize other franchises. And BBCS2 comes out soon on console, so does Arcana Heart 3.
I WANT them to take their time on this thing because I want a well crafted interface and solid online options, unlike MvC3.
I can't believe they're passing up the opportunity to rebalance the game. This is truly disappointing.
3rd Strike is an AMAZING game and the one thing holding it back is the balance issues. It wouldn't take much just to tone down characters like Chun and Yun and bring up characters like Sean, Hugo, Q, 12, and Alex.
They could have rebalanced it and still given players the option to switch it to "classic" 3S without the balance changes.
I haven't played 3 at all and would prob use Chun since I use her in 4. That being said, I prob won't even play online much except with friends and if they include a trial/mission mode that's where most of my time will go.
Why are you people complaining? so what if Chun and Yun still god tiers? remember the more we face them, the more we know their tricks. i hate when people choose them because they are top tiers, not other reasons.
I don't care about tiers and my main will always be Ryu.
I like SF3S as much as the next guy (mainly for the music, atmosphere, etc) but atleast I can see how one dimensional SF3S was thanks to it's parry system.
Can you imagine how Dhalsim, Vega(my main) and Gen would fair in S3?Half of their moves would be pointless since they can be seen coming from far away and thus easily parried. I can bet they'd be worst than Twelve. Atleast Twelve has rapid multi-hitting moves. Hem. The game was clearly built for rushdown characters and nothing else.
yea theres a reason SSF4 attracted so much players. its too easy. this generation gamers just want something they can learn in 2months. sorry but if you dont want 3rd strike all the more for us. its time you people stop taking the easy road out and start seeing how a real hard game is supposed to be. if you want easy wins then like i said theres SSF4. for those who want a challenge, 3rd strike is coming soon. and i never said that im a pro at it or anything. i play on GGPO (CRUSH!!-ID) and people kick my ass on a regular basis. some even **** talk me for being to scrubby. but thats the reason i play it, because its challenging.
@3/14
come on guys stop being lazy. if you suck then dont play 3rd strike. simple.
@78
you make a good point but remember that would the game easy (just like SSF4). i would love for new comers to have the opportunity to try 3rd strike without complaining of its difficulty, but lets face it, maybe 1/25 actually do. remember there are people who complain about SSF4 for Christs sake. i like my characters (Urien and Ryu) even if they're mid. i also used to play Hugo (low-teir) and he was fun despite getting beaten plenty of times. people have to remember its not the character its the player. just check some vids a guy named Kuroda. maybe he can change your minds.
oops second post i meant to write @5/14 not 3/14 lol
I don't care about how easy the game is or how hard the game is. I understood that 3rd Strike wasn't loved by casual audiences, but damn man.
3rd Strike is one of the very few games I play in which I could care less about others opinions of it. Way I see it, so long as the netcode is flawless and the game itself looks sexy, it's perfect as it is. I see lots of moaning about balance, and honestly idgaf. I've played against Twelves that made me cry, and I've played Yuns that were so predictable I'd get perfects on em. With 3S, its simply a matter of skill. Sure, Yun and Chun have advantages over some, but really they're easy to deal with unless the player is gdlk.
Bottom line, Imma get this and be playin it day 1 and onward. Now where the hell is my CvS2 OE?
3SO is worthless.
GGPO and Supercade already offers lagless games. Yeah, they're not lagless if you play with anyone too far. Don't think this won't be the case here.
I'm sick of games that don't even want to evolve. 3rd Strike is the best, but they refuse to touch the gameplay? Then what the hell is that? Yeah, online. Nevermind I've been playing online for the past few years.
Capcom just knows how to make me bitter. This is all worthless, wasted potential, I say. They have never gotten a penny from me since SF4 and never will again.
I mean come on for god's sakes. 3rd Strike was an extraordinary step forward. Flawed as hell? Hell yeah it is. But who refuses to improve on that? Capcom sure does.
I'm mad as f*** right now. Mad.
the whining about 3s on this site is unbearable. if you hate it, stfu, if you love it, stfu as well and be happy capcom listened to us 3s fans and now we are getting a port of it. I bet more then enough people will buy it just for the street fighter name when it drops, watch.
lol, 3S is a piece of crap. Let it die in peace. Don't waste money on it and instead on the present and future SF games.
If you actually play 3rd Strike and know anything about it's history and/or current community within the United States and abroad, I don't need to say anything. I'm looking forward to 3SO and I hope anyone that is curious about the game just please give it a try. If it's not for you and you honestly enjoy other games more that's fine, just please don't s**t on a game if you don't know much about it. Or, god forbid, s**t on a game because it's just not for you.
For the crybabies about non-rebalancing of OE:
- In the past, if Japanese players like RX (Urien), Hayao (Hugo), Kuroda (Q) Sugiyama (Necro) or even Yamazaki (Twelve) came to EVO instead of Daigo, Nuki, KO, Tokido... and dominated the tournies, would anyone complain about the game's balance anymore? Remember your guys Justin Wong and Ricky Ortiz never used any chars beside Chun & Ken but always got schooled every year they came to Japan for SBO before SFIV came out, everyone here must know how Kuroda Q raped those two asses.
- Second, look at Vanilla Street Fighter IV and AE. They got Vanilla Sagat and AE Yun but the Japs still got the hearts to learn EVERY other characters and many beast with those, totally not whining about how OP the top tiers are.
- If you don't want to put any effort to learn your character, 3S is not the game you should play. Stay with crap characters like Guile or Blanka :)
Like #101's POV. But how is Blanka a crap player? He is very tough to master. No such thing as crap characters in a popular game, but only crap games like 3s which is the reason the Street Fighter lost its momentum and popularity. Facts don't lie people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPUdcy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9WU64...
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/dominat...
http://sirlin.dreamhosters.com/archiv...
Who am I inclined to believe? The OGs, or a bunch of 15-year-olds who only jumped on the 3S bandwagon because of Daigo vs. Wong?
105@ You're so deluded.
First of all, Mike Watson sucks at 3s.
exhibit 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiHSpB...
exhibit 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH2YeC...
exhibit 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU7g9e...
Are Jeff Schaefer, Seth Killian, and David Sirlin good at 3s? No they aren't, and you shouldn't listen to them just because they are familiar to community.
@106- STFU, noob. Watson still made top 8. How does getting beat by one of SEVEN of the better players, and one other guy from three years before, make him suck?
Second, not being good at a particular game doesn't detract from one's credibility. These guys know what a real SF game is. And they have a long history of tournament victories to back it up. Otherwise, Schaeffer would have no business schooling Daigo (the man everyone c0ckrides) in SF2AE. And he hasn't played SF in ten years.
@107 He made to top 8 because tournament was filled with noobs. He said there were noobs there, so there.
Second, actually you have to be good at 3s to be taken seriously by a real 3s player. None of people you mentioned had a decent argument about 3s.
3s and other SF games only share same name, they are completely different, so are we gonna listen to KOF players about SF games now? "real SF game"? I'm just gonna stop replying here.
Ryukendan:
You need to stop right now.
First off, saying Mike Watson sucks at 3S is ridiculous. Saying people who aren't great at 3S can't talk about it is even more ridiculous. In fact, it's insulting. By your logic, you can't say ANYTHING because I'm sure you aren't even as good as they are.
Second, and this I found HILARIOUS, is that you think 3S is better than all the other SFs because it has no "random?" Are you kidding? SF3 3S is THE KING of random. It is the random of randoms and the comebackest of comebacks. When did you start playing that game? Do you not remember "random parries?" You can do 50% easily off of an OS that you can do simply while moving, that no one can predict so you have to play the entire game just guessing around the THREAT of it.
So tell me how all that other stuff is more random than that.
#109
Just because you don't complain does not mean it's not worth complaining about. Just because a character CAN LOSE does not mean the game is balanced.
That's like saying if Capcom gave a character in SSF4 5,000 stamina, when the average stamina is 1000, that would be ok, because that character can still be knocked out. Yes, but it would be undeniably harder and that character would have a clear, unfair advantage over the rest of the cast.
The top tier of 3S is so far above the rest that it is unholy. It's not like Guilty Gear tiers where there are characters who are superior but they can more or less tangle with each other just fine within a tier or two. No, Chun and Yun are so far above the rest that in the hands of a skilled player they are basically boss fights and you need to be so much more on point and have so much more ability in order to win. But you don't think that is a problem, because YOU do not care.
And guess what, everyone? Just because Kuroda is amazing with Q, does not mean Q does not suck in 3S. Just because there are guys out in Japan beasting on awful entry level Yuns with Twelve, does not mean Twelve does not suck. Just because your friend plays a terrible Ken and you can beat him because he does not even care, does not mean the game is balanced and skill overcomes all. The truth is that exceptions are exceptions and the story ends there. 3S has 17 7-3 matchups and nothing you say is going to make that less stupid.
Meh. I wanted a re-balance mode. Not like HDR, they could separate the two modes. I know balance doesn't matter to all the scrubs here who aren't complaining about it, but I like watching games too, and watching 3rd Strike gets old after the thousandth Ken/Chun/Yun match.
And yeah, the "mindblowing" new stuff for this game, are going to be exactly what was confirmed in this article: good netcode (either GGPO or similar technology) and the same graphics filters they put into MvC2. It's probably done. It was probably done months ago. They just want to release it at a good time.
@mndy:
Can you please shut up and watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3fJir...
And would you dare to call Rikimaru an "awful entry level Chuns"? If you don't being acquainted with Jap 3S scene, I must remind you Rikimaru are top 3 Chun now along with Nuki and MOV.
#114
I've seen that, and TM(Q) vs Nuki(Chun) and all the rest.
But you realize the stupidity of using a few exceptional top level players to argue the balance of a game, right? Just because a few godlike players can get around hilariously unbalanced matchups, does not mean the game does not have balance problems.
So, you shut up.
#113
Alright, so first, you say he doesn't suck at 3S. Then you're going to say he sucks because he said 3S sucks, even though by your own admittance, since he does not suck at 3S, he should be qualified to judge the game and know what's upw ith it... right? Look at your own words, nigga. They make no sense.
Now, "safe random?" I'm beginning to think you don't even know wtf random is. Let me tell you about random:
1) A Super Turbo super is not random. That may be random to you, but your opponent threw that shinku hadouken out because he read your fireball pattern, or you got hit by Guile's super because he saw your walk up throw coming and reversaled you. That was not random. That was planned, or it was read.
2) An Alpha custom combo is not random, because they plan to hit you with the custom combo. That is the whole reason they have the custom combo in the first place. It is never random. You can call it unfair, or stupid, but random? No way.
3) An SSF4 FADC isn't random, because if they hit you with a shoryuken and FADC into U1 they were looking for that, or expecting you to do something, and even if they just walk up and shoryuken you and FADC backdash to make it safe, they knew what they were doing.
But 3S OS parries, are actually totally random.
When you OS Parry, you are basically doing a 50-50 every time you move that increases the chances of you parrying, and neither you nor the opponent can do anything except guess that OS Parrying is happening. If you DO get a parry, it was ACTUALLY RANDOM because there was no way you could have planned for it. It is not something you plan, it is something that you just do, constantly, like breathing. All you have to do is react to it. It does not even have a real disadvantage.
If that isn't "safe random" I don't know what you could say is.
I wonder how many of you got into SF with 3S, because nothing is more hilarious than seeing people whitewashing the terrible balance of 3S and going on to talk about the awful inputs of SF4 and how it brought in all the scrubs, when 3S... had an awful input reader, and brought in tons of scrubs. Look at you all. You've become your own grandparents.
@malda then you haven't read much comments then. Funny how 3s fannies are don't **** on my game and that's all you guys have done to SF4 you can't have it both ways plus to those that say 4 is easy you guys must suck at a high level it is so different between the reading, footsies, zoning etc.
@101 your argument was good till you trashed guile and blanka also Tokido and most tourney players aren't fans of AE because of Yun look at the top 10 in japan almost all Yun the most impressive was a Gen who eventually began to slide due to you guessed it another Yun.
@116 1) You might as well say that game X is not random because they "predicted" the move of opponent. If that is so then why those supers get blocked so many times?
Question is, are those supers random or did player knew when to throw it out? This is a long subject.
2) In SFA2/SFA3 you walk in front of your opponent and activate CC, it's safe so why not? If he attacked he receives a lot of damage.
3) Read 1)
Parry is random and safe? Haha quite opposite, not only you take risk to get hit every time you try parry, but even if you manage to parry your opponent can cancel into higher priority move and punish your parry. Learn the rules of the game before talking about it. At least Jeff, S-Kill, and Sirlin didn't talk much about 3s, but you truly revealed your ignorance.
#120
I'm going to keep this short because you will probably never understand why 3S is a flawed game:
Saying that Alpha, ST, and SF4 have "random" comebacks and that these comebacks are both random and safe, then praising 3S, a game with OS Parries, as not being about random comebacks, is stupid.
If you want to know why, maybe you should take off the nostalgia goggles and go talk to guys like Jeff, Sirlin, Viscant, Hsien Chang, and read what they've said about 3S.
Until then, sorry, you don't understand 3S half the amount you think you do.
@108- Like I said before, STFU. And face reality. Watson said the tournament was full of noobs. He was right. That's the only reason the game's popular; the people who cherish it so much are nothing but f@cking noobs. The very people who can't play SF2, Alpha or SF4 to save their own lives. They can't wrap their heads around the concept of zoning, and they complain about Watson winning because of it? What good are they?
Don't give me that "only good players can be taken seriously" crap. NO 3S player who actually LIKES the game can be taken seriously. When SF3 came out in the 90s, everyone in the SF community knew it was garbage. THEY ALL HATED IT. Then Evo comes around. Thanks to the internet, a whole new generation of mindless scrubs get to view the Daigo vs. Wong nonsense, and all of a sudden, it's the greatest SF game ever made? Since when the f@ck were YOU people the authority on SF? Daigo can't even beat the second best SF2 player at Hyper/Anniversary Edition, so what does that say about the rest of you f@ckers?
And the OGs DID make valid arguments against 3S. No certainty, no room for gameplans, homogenity from parrying, and zero emphasis on positioning. These problems are all counter-intuitive for the design of a 2D game. I don't see anyone making good arguments against these, primarily because you f@ggots are too impressionable and you just don't get it.
@ 123 your argument would work better without the cursing just saying.
Sadly that's what derails these debates and turns them into pointless arguments.
@120 No, you will never understand that 3s is good game because you don't even play it. Weird huh?
You don't anything about OS parries. For you OS parries are myth, and you will never understand what you just said about them. OS parry is not even that useful, yet you praise it like it's what made 3s broken. Many top players hardly ever use parry.
Look, you parry low, you may get hit high, you parry high, you may get hit low. OS parry never allowed you to parry both low and high. You take risk when you try parry, how is that safe and random?
I didn't say that comebacks are random in ST, SFA, SF4. I said that they have safe supers, and because they are safe, players do it randomly to get lucky win. I don't blame them, blame the game. As far as random factor goes 3s is best SF game.
Understand this - no matter how flawed a game can be, it has its own rules, and a better player wins. Which means that ST, SFA, SF4 are good games, but for me 3s is least flawed and I chose to play it over those games. I understand how 3s works and how other game work because I played them. SFA2 could be one of best SF games but random CC ruined it.
#127
Cool assumption, bro.
Hey, news flash, I played 3S for three years. My friends were all into 3S, because of Daigo's parry vid against Justin, blah blah blah I have played more 3S and seen more 3S and hung out with more 3S players than you ever will.
"OS parry is not even that useful, yet you praise it like it's what made 3s broken. Many top players hardly ever use parry.
Look, you parry low, you may get hit high, you parry high, you may get hit low. OS parry never allowed you to parry both low and high." - You
When you said that, you basically revealed that you don't know jack about 3S. It doesn't get simpler than that.
"As far as random factor goes 3s is best SF game."
And when you said that you proved you don't know Street Fighter. Because 3S is, hands down, straight up, THE most random Street Fighter game. The only thing that you could consider even close to 3S's "random" would be ST dizzies, but YOU DIDN'T EVEN BRING THAT UP so you are just ignorant.
@128 What I said proves that 3s parry is not safe, and because it's not safe players will not attempt it randomly.
ST dizzies are random, but I am not talking about game mechanics randomness, I am talking about safe random high priority moves! In 3s you can't do random moves and get away with it, but look at ST, SFA, SF4, it rewards you!
Sure, it may not be random super, it can be that you predicted opponent and punished him, but it mostly is random super.
You may have played 3s for three years but if you think OS parry is broken then I guess you haven't learned much.
#129
Yeah, so when pro players write entire essays about how OS Parrying destroys the entire flow of the game, they are saying that it's perfectly okay, right?
Murderous said it best: You need to face reality. None of your arguments even make sense. You throw around the word "random" without even knowing what it means.
You want to talk about safe, random high priority moves?
What the hell is 3S Chun, then?
You can't get away with doing random moves in 3S?
You don't get rewarded for that stuff in 3S?
Why is Ken whiffing standing strong? Why is Chun standing there whiffing back fierce? Why is Yun whiffing crouching strong?
You just don't understand GAMES.
As long as it has a multi-man lobby, NO glitches/connection issues(GGPO), or input delays that are present even in local online matches(Supercade), I won't give two craps about balance. Only thing that keeps me from playing more 3s is lag tactics online.
For the guys who can't stand the lag on GGPO/Supercade:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/ma...
Way I see it, 3S Random = Punishable random.
You tried to parry? Thrown.
You tried to throw? Poked.
You tried to poke? Parry.
Its like a game of very, very high speed tactical rock paper scissors that required execution and skill above all else to be good at. Say its as random as you want, but you can't just have a random newbie walk up to someone who knows what he's doing and win with Random parries and throws. Hell, even if someone does know the OS parries and the whole bit, he's not friggen invulnerable because of this. What if he parried a super cancel (Shoulder Ram into Aegis)? Is he going to get off scott free? Even SGGKs aren't untouchable, cuz you can only input that one direction for that one parry, and could get hit by something like cr.mk into SA2 just cuz you guessed wrong.
Is it random? Damn sure seems like it. But its the most tactical random out there. Getting random parries is only rewarded if you know how to follow up in that situation, as not everything is a good follow up for a parry. Mashing out a reversal Shoryu when you're desperate in SSFIV is one of the safest things in the world. Did it hit? FADC Ultra. Was it blocked? FADC Backdash. Only thing that wins in that situation is a whiff or something with greater invincibility.
The reason why 3rd Strike is so damned entertaining is because nothing is safe, yet when used properly your characters can do some crazy stuff. Necro is a good example of this. A lot of his normals can be easily parried, but a good Necro can work around that and corner juggle your ass until you're just dead. This game has footsies as an emphasis. Unless your name is Remy, you can't really zone due to parries, and to a lot of people that's a good thing. Some people don't want to play against SSFIV Guile's Sonic Booms, not because they can't deal with it, but because it is absolutely no fun for them to do so.
Lastly, 3rd Strike takes more skill than others, and thru constant play against good opponents one can see their own skills progress. Its not like in SSFIV where someone can get quite far by inputting qcf motions and sticking out normals. Footsies is one of the most important aspects of any fighting game, and 3rd Strike does it best. Its what makes it so fun.
"Ono said that Street Fighter 3 Third Strike Online Edition will not be rebalanced"
There goes the interest from everyone except the people who had already been playing it for a decade or more—and who can already play it online now if they want to. And it's a poorly balanced game in the first place; nor does it easily admit new players, as Ono has admitted himself and called a huge mistake. So what's the point?
The "graphic enhancements?" Those of you who think he's talking about something on the order of an HD Remix, you're way off. There will be a couple of selectable filters. That's all.
This won't sell.
#133
Thanks bro, checking it out now. I actually did read about this a few days ago but forgot about it.
#134
"The reason why 3rd Strike is so damned entertaining is because nothing is safe"
This is the reason why 3rd Strike is Daisuke Ishiwatari's favorite fighting game.
#135
"Those of you who think he's talking about something on the order of an HD Remix, you're way off."
Thanks HEAVENS. HD Remix looked like balls.
#134
Sorry, none of that holds up.
First off, you cannot have "tactical random." That's an oxymoron. If you said that to any of the pro players who specifically dislike 3S because OS Parrying lessens the effectiveness of tactics, they would laugh in your face. "Tactical random" is an absurd and meaningless phrase.
Also rock-paper-scissors in a fighting game... is bad. Can you imagine a fighting game where when you knock someone down, you are at absolutely no advantage whatsoever, to the point where the game just slows down at a knockdown because your options are garbage? Yeah, I can: Dead or Alive. Blazblue as well, to an extent. Either way, doesn't sound very fun, does it? That's 3S, only it applies when the characters AREN'T knocked down. Does that sound like a fun game? A game where OS Parries turn all offensive approaches into R-P-S?
"Nothing in 3S is safe?" Then tell me why all the good characters in 3S, aside from Makoto, are good because they have the abiility to throw out safe, hit-confirmable pokes into super. Seriously, you know Chun Li can be played with TWO BUTTONS, right? That's how safe she is, and she's the top character in the game, and you have the balls to say that nothing in 3S is safe.
"The game is good because it's pure footsies, no zoning."
Yeah, zoning, an INTEGRAL PART OF STREET FIGHTER, does not exist in 3S, and that makes it good? You're obviously a guy who got into SF with 3rd Strike, and you hate SF4 because you are too impatient to actually learn to get around fireballs so you long for the days when fireballs were so ass that most people didn't even bother to throw them. That is NOT A GOOD THING. And 3S footsies, by the way, were retarded. Why? OS Parries.
You want to know what 3S is like? It's a shame, because I can't show you. It's gone now, but there used to be a vid on Super Queering AIDS's channel called "Street Fighter Skool: Kuroda." It was Kuroda and a Ken teabagging in each others' general direction for 30 full seconds until Kuroda got a low parry into throw. Yeah... fun game.
I honestly believe, after talking with you all, that you 3S fans are clueless about the game.
@137
I've noticed you bring up OS parries an awful lot. It seems to me that you've had bad experiences with them, but I digress on that point.
You shouldn't assume that I dislike SFIV, or that I got into SF at 3rd Strike, when I got into it at Champion Edition and rather enjoy playing as Gouken. Every Street Fighter iteration is different. SF2 is different from Alpha, which is different from 3. The only 2 SF series' that bore any true similarities were SF2 and SF4, and that was intentional. Because of the fact that all these series are different, you end up with DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO LIKE THE GAME FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. If OS Parries are so darned broken in your mind that it makes you hate the game as a whole, then by all means feel free to hate. Just don't go around saying that other fans of the game who actually play the game are clueless about the game they enjoy playing. In SFIV, I don't like fighting Dhalsim, not because I can't beat Dhalsim, but because I do not enjoy sitting down throwing out my Godly projectiles waiting for him to give me an opening. However, there may be someone that LOVES fighting Dhalsims. Just how the world works.
Also, involving the saftey of moves, those moves aren't safe because of those OS parries you keep talking about. Sure, they can stick out a move, but if they get parried by someone who knows how to follow up that's pretty much it. Which is footsies in that game.
Lastly, I saw that match and it was one of the most lulzy things ever. Still, other games have boring matches. I remember seeing an SFIV match where 2 players just crouched for the first 20 seconds, and I've seen a SF2 match that was literally a game of "Who can throw the most fireballs" Haven't seen much of SFA tho, but you get the point.
PS- If you don't believe in Tactical Random you've never played Pokemon/Yugioh/Any Turn Based RPG ever.
#138
Yes, I guess you could call Pokemon and YuGiOh "tactical random" only those are luck-of-the-draw RPG/card games. Street Fighter is a fighting game. Fighting games are not supposed to have "random." Random is bad in fighting games. Why would you even use games that are NOT FIGHTING GAMES to talk about fighting game mechanics?
And no, I did not have a "bad experience with OS Parries." They are not broken only in my mind. OS Parries were gamebreaking, period. OS Parrying is why Genei Jin and Chun were so dominant in 3S. It was why the game was nothing but footsies and all offenses were three moves(a low poke hit confirmable into super, a high/mid poke hit confirmable into super, and a grab). It was the reason why Q, Twelve, Hugo, etc. were low tier. If you actually knew how good OS Parries were, I would not even have to say this but none of you seem to. Maybe you should go look at some of the articles linked in this thread and written by people like Viscant and Seth Killian that explain why that BS was so godlike that everyone had to play while living in fear of it, thus making the game sorta stupid.
Also, for your information, I LIKE 3S. I think it is charming. I just don't like it when people who have NO UNDERSTANDING of 3S talk about how great it was, when it was actually a deeply flawed, at times ridiculous game that could have been much, much better. Then those people talk about how the game was pure skills and too hardcore for this casual new era of scrubs, when it was the SF4 of its time(brought in tons of new people asking dumb questions who played the game for all the wrong reasons, was easier than every other fighting game at the time, had incredibly dumb input reading, stupidly skewed matchups, all the old people hated it but you had to play it anyway because it was Street Fighter).
You can like the game, you can look forward to the graphically updated online rerelease of the game, whatever. But at least be realistic, and recognize the flaws of the game and why you are wrong.
i like 3s but i hate its fanboys. all they do is lurk SF4 and talk crap about it like they have nothing better to do. even when they are on ggpo 3s, all they think about is SF4. well now im happy you have your game, stick to it and leave sf4 and its players alone
I'm not really sure what I'm wrong about. I never said the game wasn't flawed. There are a few things wrong with this (and every other) fighting game out there. Im just defending the fact that even with OS parries the game still lets you deal with more or less anything your opponents can throw at you due to parrying, and that OS Parries weren't unstoppable. Godlike? Yes. Gamechanging? Yes. Well... in a way. How would the game play without OS parries? Would it be that much different, or would it make you feel a little safer when throwing out your pokes? As a Makoto player, Parries as a whole don't bother me much, OS or not, so I guess I can't really see them as as much of a threat as others would. (Seeing as in 3rd Strike my main strategy involves raping face and mindscrewing (offensive grab/high/low mixup pressure)), but even so I still don't see OS parries as anything but "Your moves aren't safe. Choose wisely." But my question stands, what would the game play like if there were no OS parries?
What made 3rd Strike so great (besides the NO ONE IS SAFE thing) is the fact that despite its flaws it was damned fun to play. Even tho OS parries could prove deadly, that didn't mean that the opponent was some godly robot who would parry your every move, bringing back up that skill factor mentioned earlier. In the end, twas just you versus your opponent, despite the character chosen. Its not like you can't down parry Chun, or whatever it was you do against Yun. It was still fun as hell. I've never played 3rd Strike and felt like it was meticulous work, unlike in SFIV and SF2 in which certain matchups were. Oh, and you couldn't truly win in this game without at least an intermediate level of skill. Its like SF2 in that regard.
Bottom line, game was not too broken, luck/skill based fun, despite the OS parries. Its not like, say, MvC2 in which the system so heavily favors a handful of characters that the rest are "unplayable" (exception in Roll, who is ALWAYS unplayable.)
Oh, and before anyone calls me a 3rd Strike fanboy, I think its fair that you all know that I love LOTS of fighting games. 3S, CvS2, Garou, KOF2002, KOF XIII, GGXXAC, SC2, SC3, Tekken 5, Tekken 6 (I suck at Tekkens tho.),MvC2, MvC3, and some other games I just can't remember right now. My heart is big enough for all of them!
#141
"Its not like, say, MvC2 in which the system so heavily favors a handful of characters that the rest are "unplayable""
Except that it is, lol.
In 3S all the characters you think would benefit from parrying, like Hugo and Q, were actually hurt by parrying because their moves were so easily parried with OS Parries. Ken, Yun, and Chun were incredible because the super system alone made them a cut above the rest due to their SA3 and Chun's SA2. Ken and Yun could be as godlike as they were because there was no zoning in 3S.
"It's all about skill?" Nope. OS Parrying allowed you to do multiple parry motions and lengthen the window of the parry so that it was actually very easy to parry, and you could even do parry-protected moves. That's the thing: You don't have to be a godly parrying robot to parry. Anyone can learn to random parry, and then they just have to be able to react to it, and they can comeback like nothing else off something that is, completely, 100%, RANDOM.
And again, that "no one is safe, nothing is safe in 3S" line is garbage. Again, if that were true, the high tier characters would not be characters who can safely hit confirm into super like they can. But... they are.
"Botton line, game was not too broken,"
LOL
In the words of Kokujin, "I'm out."
@#44 roarmonster:
Basing it on the people you would have me believe don't like 3S (people who don't know how to parry). They like it.
So if newbs like it, and we know that the pros like it, then... hang on, I know I was going somewhere with this...
...oh yeah! It means you're full of it!
I'm buying this game even though I've never played 3S.
Hey I love both ST and 3S, nothing wrong huh? As I know many SFII communities hate SFIV too. I don't hate SFIV but I just found it's not men enough comparing to ST and 3S :) . I'm tired to watch Honda or Guile players in SFIV. In my lastest local tournament for SSFIV, the grand final was a Guile mirror match, you think it's fun huh?
In the words of Kokujin and Nuki, "I was out for SFIV for a while, but it's so boring so now I'm back!"
@149: So you prefer Chun mirror matches? Even Yun gets boring after a while, and those are pretty much the only characters CAPCOM wanted you to play back then.
#150
3S is an unbalanced and overrated game, filled with flawed mechanics, outrageous matchups, and way more "random" factor than there should be in a fighting game. It was not the perfect god-brain-requiring "random tactics" super technical ultra-skill fighter you all imagine it to be.
I love 3S but even I can admit that it's a VERY VERY flawed game. Parries work better for 3D fighters unless they are heavily limited in 2D fighters. Just to add, zoning in 3S is terrible because the fireballs SUCKED hard. Just compare SF2 fireballs to SF3 fireballs? SF2 had SUPER FAST and SUPER DAMAGING fireballs that would deal a ton of chip and to top it all off they had less recovery frames, while in 3S fireballs were COMPLETE trash.
Some problems that I now see in 3S parries and changes needed:
1.) There is NO whiff animation at all, this is the OS parries he was talking about.
2.) You should not be able to parry on block (choose ONE and commit to it).
3.) The problem with charge characters (RIP Guile). Unfortunately I have no solution to this other than letting charge characters build up exactly ONE charge regardless of how many parries one does. However, I feel this could be abused in some ways.
Go to go now, I'll post more ideas later.
Ok I'm back.
Some more problems with parries:
4.) This is a more obscure issue, but when you block something you gain a little bit of meter, receive a little knockback, and eat some chip damage. Parries should give you a little more knockback (just a little more), eat up a little of your meter, but receive no chip damage (obviously). So you now you have to choose between eating chip damage or losing meter. The knockback (especially from projectiles) can help zoning characters deal with the parry. Eating meter will guarantee that the zoning characters efforts were not wasted. Characters who have a difficult time dealing with zoning characters still have an option, BUT not a solution to projectiles.
5.) Maybe removing the ability of parring in the air? Anti-airs aren't so great with using parry, but I mentioned earlier that increasing knockback received from performing the parry can help with this. So maybe removing them from the air isn't as needed.
@ mndy
Usually I don't like someone constantly posting, but in your case I feel like you are the one of the few holding the flag of sanity here.
Your right, 3S sucks hard BECAUSE of parrying. The godtier is just that GODTIER. comparisons to Vanilla Sagat proves you don't know the game. It's like SSFIIT Akuma vs Honda bad.
But the only reason you left out, and the one reason fanboys have never been able to explain why it's ok and fair, to me (because you can't, go ahead and try.) ... CHARGE CHARACTERS ARE Boned. No one post Dirty Music or any other exception cause it's just that, an exception. Charge characters can't do any of their natural reversals because of OS parrying. It takes all the skill of a good read and say's, 'bone it, rush down only son.' Seriously flawed.
Also, a lot of comments were taken down and to the person that posted all the links to the pro's comments on why it sucks - great post. Very good reads.
@ Schwaffles.
Great theories, People will keel haul you if you took air parries out, but I think it's a great dialogue to have in terms of balancing. Maybe air parries and fireball parries push back but all parries eat the same meter as using block?
People would freak out but it seems a completely fair theory in terms of balancing for all characters. Maybe they don't have the source code to rebalance the game? It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
I also think whiffing parry's would not only be fair, but really bring to light all the people that say it's an experts game by proving how many of them are mash-parrying. That's not a vengeful comment, it's just a a realistic one. If it's the expert fighting game, let's give more opponents for these experts to fight and increase the difficulty in the games most abusable tactic.
thanks for reading, this is an issue that I really take to heart after five years (when I started) of theorizing only to have them say 'no' to balancing. M
In the first sentence, I meant parries eat the same EX meter as block does chip,
I don't really think you're going to get any more old school SF2 players, playing SSF4. I'm one of a hand full of old school gamers who started playing again; and I primarily started playing because I've got two Teenage brothers. The Old school gamers I know prefer to meet up and play the classics; Rival Schools, Children of the Atom, Power Stone, 3rd Strike,Pocket fighters Sf2 etc.
It seems pointless to bring out 3rd Strike online without balancing the game out. It seems pointless to bring out the game again anyhow. They should have added the most popular characters from 3rd strike to SSF4.
@mndy: I don't know Hsien Chang and Viscant, why would I call them scrubs?
Also, I don't need to watch your videos or read essays... I made an analytical observation that shows the differences between 3S and SF4. 3S simply isn't a game you can just jump into and succeed. Why do you think we have huge reversal windows and ultras in SF4 when we didn't have them in SF2? It's because Capcom wants to expand their brand, which means making the game easier for casual players. Capcom is actually doing this with a few titles, such as Resident Evil 5.
In a game where you don't have ultras, you have to rely on your super bar and manage your meters (which makes you think more). I didn't bother talking about Chun or Yun, dedicated players could win if they got good enough (are we seeing how 3S is a niche game and how it was designed for people who are willing to learn the engine to great degrees to overcome these obstacles)?
Did you think I said 3S was good? I didn't say my thoughts on how good or bad the game is, I made a statement on why it didn't do well (in comparison to SF2 or 4).
When I play SF4, I hear little kids talking on the mic talking smack sometimes, so are you going to tell me it's not a game aimed at everyone? I don't think so.
Also, keep your nigga comment to yourself.
@ Nei
No offense, but your argument backs up my point. Your saying 3S is fine the way it is, but you don't understand how important zoning is in a fighting game? Or having your game mechanics remaining viable for the other half of the cast?
@ Raven
You can't say he's wrong when you won't even open up his example. Also, he's not saying he just tried 3S. He's speaking from years of experience so you can't say he doesn't have a valid argument against the balance issues in the game, it's all based on statistics.
Because haters can't resist when you stupid 3S fanf@gs talk the game up. That's why.
And LOL at these a$$holes who think SF's better without zoning. You're so goddamn funny. It's a 2D game. Movement is limited enough when you're restricted to one plane. And you think people shouldn't be able fight at a distance, why?
What's next? Are you gonna tell me sidestepping should be removed from Tekken?
@Murderous
It's still possible to implement parry in a 2D fighting game. Look @ my earlier posts. But adding to that, the biggest problem with long range zoning in 3S is the horrible fireballs. They are slow, do very little hit & chip damage, and have a ton of recovery frames compared to ST. You can still have a mechanically AND strategically balanced 2D fighter with parries.
Look who's talking, a$$hole. You haven't said anything logical yourself. I can hate the game as much as I want. If you're just gonna come on here and say "you're ignorant, why you coming on here hating the game *sobsob*" and NOT refute anything people say that proves 3S sucks, close your mouth and f@ck off. Stupid POS.
@171- Yeah, I know it's possible to implement a good parry system. You mentioned earlier that parries should cost meter and add knockback to the character. That's a brilliant idea. Just make it cost one whole bar for each parry, and you trade supers for an opportunity to gain better position over the other player. Positioning is everything. Implement parries like this and make fireballs good, and you don't risk taking away from the strategy or character variety in the game.
@Murderous
Costing 1 whole bar for each parry is WAAY too much. It needs to be a trade off. Specials do a little chip so you lose a little meter(1/6th of a bar should do it). People will have to be careful with their meter management so they can save up for supers/ex moves/parries for different situations. Balance the game mechanically AND strategically, you don't want to be screwing over Zangief OR Guile.
#163
OK, first off, don't tell me about how Capcom is making games more casual, because 3S was more casual than every other Capcom game out during the time it was out. It was easier than ST, it was easier than Alpha, it was easier than Darkstalkers, it was easier than both Marvels, it was easier than CvS2, hell, I'm going to say it was easier than GG and KOF too, and Karnov's Revenge. 3S also had a bigger reversal window than every other Capcom game until SF4. 3S is the SF4 of "old timers" who think they're hardcore old timers, because they played 3S 6-7 years ago.
And there were tons of people who had never touched ST seriously, never played or even heard of VS, never done more than casually mashed in Marvel and never even played XMenvsSF/MSHvsSF playing 3S back then. 3S brought in all the new kids and if you think it didn't, it's because you were one of those new kids. They just didn't talk smack because it was offline and at the arcade so there were less of them. Little kids don't talk smack to you online because the game is "aimed at everyone," they talk smack to you because THEY CAN because THEY ARE ONLINE and it is a bigger world now because of it. You are blaming all the wrong stuff.
Finally, let's talk about what you said about 3S's gameplay. "Oh, there's no Ultra bar so you have to manage meter?" Too bad that led to super homogeneity, with everyone picking the same supers 90% of the time, partly because of the super but half because of how long the bar was/how many bars you got. Seriously, was there ever a reason to not use Chun SA2 or Ken SA3? Who do you know who seriously picks Yun and doesn't pick SA3? Every character had something like this. And the meter management thing meant half of every match is going to be people whiffing their fastest normal, and you cannot tell me that did not look retarded and did not slow the game down.
@Murderous
You're right but you need to chill out with the swearing. You're not going to convince a die-hard fan but if you keep insulting them it's only going to look bad on you.
@MALDA
I find it hilarious you are so devastated at people pointing out the flaws of 3S, when you are the one posting "LOL MARVEL 3... STUPID GAME" in every single Marvel 3 post on EventHubs.
Okay fine, make it a 1/6th of a bar, but ALSO reduce the effectiveness of supers. First by limiting the number of bars to one, and then either reducing the max damage to 35% or removing all invincibility frames. Because I don't want people using them as a crutch anymore. Doing this will make supers part of their strategy, not replace it.
@Murderous
I love your idea with supers. Especially since it brings back the idea of true zoning by using normals and specials. It can make EX moves more viable. But also give the EX moves interesting properties, like Remy's Light of Virtues. If you have enough EX meter you can basically perform a mini fireball trap in the corner, like Remy's LoV "machine gun" which is very difficult to parry.
im glad they are bringing back 3s without changing gameplay. i was terrible at 3s, and i would think sf4 was a whole lot easier to learn. i think sf4 has improved my strategies and gameplay style alot, but its only preperation for what 3s throws at me. i know 3s was a tough game to get good at, and i think it takes way more skill to be good at 3s than sf4. and this whole top tier thing, it doesnt bother me, i wont learn chun, i might give yun a chance, just because im more of a fun combo type guy, and i hate charge moves. but i think this whole perry system was really fun, and it took skill to parry and capitalize, where as sf4 was just focus for a free combo. im a huge sf4 fan, and i love playing it mainly because its my first REAL sf game besides cvs2, i never got into 3s because i couldnt handle the technicality of it. but i think its time to learn, bring it on pros!
oh and adding on about the tier list, it doesnt bother me because in sf4 i main sakura, and i hold my end rather fine imo. i mean look at the pro players on this site, how many of them use honda? ive never really watched too many 3s videos, but i definately saw the evo where daigo took out justin wong. its really the player, not the character. people can be tier whores and main yun and chun, but its how well they play them that makes them good. daigo was a perfect example of that. and gamerbee winning with adon? who saw an adon player being on top? i thought adon was low tier 0.0
@mndy "OS Parries were gamebreaking, period. OS Parrying is why Genei Jin and Chun were so dominant in 3S."
- SGGK is not, and will never be broken. Not to mention it's hard to execute and takes skill.
It was why the game was nothing but footsies and all offenses were three moves(a low poke hit confirmable into super, a high/mid poke hit confirmable into super, and a grab)."
- Footsies are bad thing? And again, you are wrong. Three moves Chun would use on wakeup is what you meant.
"It was the reason why Q, Twelve, Hugo, etc. were low tier. If you actually knew how good OS Parries were, I would not even have to say this but none of you seem to."
- Low tiers are low because of SGGK? Q and Hugo win at tournaments as much as Ken. As for Twelve, not many people even use him, but I'm sure he would have similar win rate.
"Maybe you should go look at some of the articles linked in this thread and written by people like Viscant and Seth Killian that explain why that BS was so godlike that everyone had to play while living in fear of it, thus making the game sorta stupid."
- Maybe you should learn to think for yourself. As I said, no one had a decent argument about 3S. Probably because they were stuck in SF2. Think by yourself instead of listening to "pros".
@182- "Maybe you should learn to think for yourself. As I said, no one had a decent argument about 3S. Probably because they were stuck in SF2. Think by yourself instead of listening to "pros"."
Lol, what? So 3S's a good game just because YOU think it is? YOU and the rest of the nobodies that make up the game's tournament scene? I've seen stupidity before, but so far this quote beats everything I've read this year. Thank god you're not a Capcom employee. Scrub.
@183 So I'm a scrub because USA has s*itty 3S scene and because I think 3S is a good game? Quite opposite, you are scrub because you think it's not a good game.
Anyone who believed to crap those "pros" have said about 3S never learned to play 3S. If Kokujin, RX, Nuki, etc write something good about 3S you will all suddenly change your mind about it?
@184- That's all your bullsh!t assessments of 3S's qualities come down to. It's great only because YOU like it, and anyone who says otherwise is a scrub.
Well f@ck you. Because several players in Japan including Daigo, Ohnuki and Tokido hate 3S as much as the OGs in the USA do. Not that you'd understand, because 3S is one of those games that get dumber as you progress to higher levels. And like many in the USA, you suck so much ass that you can't see its faults. It's no wonder the game's popular. The community's full of scrubs who think just like you.
@185 No, it's great for too many reasons to list. So you want me to list every reason why I think it's good here? Get real.
Even if Daigo, Nuki, Tokido hate 3S (but they don't) I couldn't care less, because I know it's a good game, and no one can convince me that it's not. The game is not so popular so I dunno where you got that info from. You are typical 3S quitter, your moves got parried and you realized you can't spam same moves over and over so you got owned.
You're just mad because you couldn't get a win at 3S and now you're posting here...
This coming from the same f@ckhead who thinks 3S > all because he couldn't get past a single fireball in ST? Whatever.
It doesn't matter to me if I couldn't win at 3S, because there are better games to waste hours of my life on. The only thing I hate is when all the f@ggots come out and brandish Daigo's holy c0ck for his 2k3 win over Wong and use that as an excuse to say the game's the best. The OGs have done something similar at pre-Evo tournaments and never made a big deal out of it because they knew how stupid it was. And several of them DO place high up in 3S tournaments still. So f@ck off.
Fireballs aren't the only concerns. Some of you aren't taking other long range moves into consideration when trying to come up with a balanced parry system. With that in mind, I think a melée based parry system would be a better idea then what was proposed early. That or a parry system based on Gouken's regenerative mechanic.
@187 Now you're saying that I like 3s because I suck at ST. I never said fireballs are not broken in ST. It sounds like something scrubs like you would say.
I also hate when someone thinks 3S is good because of Daigo parry moment. There are way better moments than that. Anyone who mentions 3S and Daigo usually doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.
What the hell is wrong with SF3 fans ? You guys take complaints against this game way too personal , I play BB and GG (copping abuse for being a weabo or whatever but i don't get all crazy) and love them as much as I do SF but I don't get why you guys get your panties in a twist. mndy and murderous make good points , this game is not the perfect fighter that you proclaim it to be , it is severely flawed , but does have some good points , but in my opinion SFA 3 was much better . Zoning is necessary in a fighting game and the fact that this game nearly ruined the franchise should indicate that something was wrong with it. Most SF3 fans go on about needing skill to make it seem like they are some godlike players despite being borderline average at this game. I will give this game a chance as I love my beat em ups and have heard good things about this game but if the majority of its fans and players are douches like what I have seen on this thread I don't really look forward to it.
@ Ryukenden
Pacing would be the only reason why anyone would think 3S was great atleast in terms of gameplay. As we all know, Rushdown is the only tactic that is quite favorable amongst crowds. Not many people can appreciate the art of Zoning or Turtling.
The only real reason 3s failed was because Dan wasn't in the game it could not handle the power of Saikyo nuff said.
@187 "Now you're saying that I like 3s because I suck at ST. I never said fireballs are not broken in ST. It sounds like something scrubs like you would say."
It's an observation based on countless remarks from people who mock zoning. Maybe you didn't say that, but that's exactly how all your butt-buddies online or at the arcade think. You can't fight at a distance, therefore the game's god-tier. If you want to pretend no one says these ridiculous things, then you're the scrub.
"I also hate when someone thinks 3S is good because of Daigo parry moment. There are way better moments than that. Anyone who mentions 3S and Daigo usually doesn't have a clue what he's talking about."
So why is it that Daigo vs. Wong made the game popular when everyone chastised it for similar moments when it first came out? And why have most of the people who picked the game up since NOT been able to adapt to other games? Tell me anything other than because the game complements their lack of skill and you're full of it.
191@ Who cares what crows thinks. If your tactic works it means you're doing the right thing, whether you're turtling or rushing down.
@193 Well I'm saying it now because you're too slow - I don't think fireballs are broken or overpowered in ST, SFA, SF4. As for other people who say it, let them be. 3S scrubs complain about parry, SF2 scrubs complain about fireballs, etc.
"So why is it that Daigo vs. Wong made the game popular when everyone chastised it for similar moments when it first came out?"
- I dunno, maybe it inspired newbies? Who cares.
@195 Doesn't he play MVC2? I only take real 3S players seriously. If Japanese players had something to say about 3S I would listen. Not some US player who barely touched it. Only most dedicated players can play 3S.
@196 Every SF game is exciting for newbies until they get to play it. But when they play 3S they immediately quit because they know what exactly they're getting themselves in.
@197 You only take REAL 3S players serious? No offense, but in your comment @182 you said, "think by yourself instead of listening to "pros"." but now in 197 you say, "If Japanese players had something to say about 3S I would listen."
I think we can agree that 3S split the community. That's obvious. So it seems to me that an Arcade title could hold both the untouched version of 3S and a revamped one. A new 3S with all the old levels and BGM in it? Wouldn't that be cool? Fan art for the menu screens? And if Dudley, Sean, and Ibuki (Elena too?) had their old attributes that made them good, what would that hurt? In a parallel universe Giants Attack could have been the last game and people would be complaining about Sean right now.
Instead of arguing, we should agree to always take what we know and improve on ourselves. That's why some of us 3S fans are mad about this news. Not because we suck, but because it's 11 years later and Capcom is going to give us the same game we play on GGPO EVERYDAY. That's not only lazy, it's borderline offensive to ignore the hardcore fans habits, especially with the GGPO inventor working for them. We've all waited a long time to see what they could do with this title and it looks like they, and a lot of their fans, are willing to just cash in.
Will I buy it? Yes. But what choice do I have?
#198
"@197 You only take REAL 3S players serious? No offense, but in your comment @182 you said, "think by yourself instead of listening to "pros"." but now in 197 you say, "If Japanese players had something to say about 3S I would listen.""
Not really a contradiction. He's saying that only people he would take seriously would be people who spent enough time with the game.
"And if Dudley, Sean, and Ibuki (Elena too?) had their old attributes that made them good"
Dudley...? Do you know what you're talking about?
Seriously, I would love more than a "balanced" 3rd Strike. However, I don't believe that Capcom can balance ANYTHING without breaking something else. Why do you think people still play Rev.A over Rev.B? What about Vampire Savior 1 vs. 2? I also don't understand why people expect a new experience out of an old game. Not to mention, 3S never got an perfect arcade port, either.
We can sit here argue back and forth about what Capcom should've done and how "scrubby" 3S players are but at the end of the day that doesn't matter. People who hated 3s moved on to SF4 and people who loves 3S(despite its flaws, which I'm point out in order to shield myself from being called out via ad hominem) will continue to play 3S. This isn't 1999 anymore when fans HAD to play 3S because there was nothing else so why change something that is still enjoyed by many? To appease the few vocal minority who aren't playing SF4? If you've given up hope for the game years ago then there is no need to look back now.
@3S haters
Although most of your criticism of 3S are very legit and I acknowledge that 3S has issues. Can you explain to me why only a few top 3S players dominate the tourneys in Japan? How come the US got raped every year at SBO? Technically speaking, if a fighting game is too random then at top level the results should be about 50/50. Why doesn't it happen in 3S, if its "completely random" at top level?
@200: It's not 'completely random', it's excessively random.
@ 199
Not really a contradiction. He's saying that only people he would take seriously would be people who spent enough time with the game.
- Yes it is a contradiction. As I stated, he criticized another player in the comments for doing the same thing earlier, i.e. using a pro's opinion of the game to validate the game's mechanics. Just because he doesn't like those pros opinions stated earlier by the other player doesn't mean he's not doing the same thing.
Dudley...? Do you know what you're talking about?
- Do you? He has a whole other move that was taken out of the game and put back into SSFIV. Plus he was top three in Giants Attack and top ten in 3S.
@200
We aren't arguing player skill but game mechanics. A player doing well doesn't validate broken systems.
@203
Your doing the same thing you criticized him of, hypocrite. I'm shocked how often people on this site are guilty of doing exactly what they profess against.
Look, If you were there I apolegize, but in 3S and MvC2's hands the scene had a turnout of like 600 people at EVO in a good year. After SFIV it was around 3000. The danger of putting an unchanged game out on the market is over-saturation, especially if that game has flaws that will kill a lot of enthusiasm. Plus, name one game that isn't Capcom that was rereleased without updates. Pac Man failed when it was first rereleased on Arcade but PacMan CE and CE DX did great because they took a risk with the game's mechanics. From both a business and prosperity stand point, it's in their best interest to give this game more than just a gloss over and GGPO. MAME already upscales graphics and GGPO already is a great online fighting client. DO SOMETHING INTERESTING> Nostalgia.
@204 I'm saying that I would listen only to what good 3S player has to say, but even if they talk crap about 3S I'd continue playing it because I KNOW 3S is good game. I don't think good players can talk bad about 3S because they, like me, understand how the game works.
I told mndy not to judge whole game because some guy who's not even good at it said it was bad.
#205
You're not making any sense. Good players are the ones who talk the most about 3S's flaws, because they understand how the game works, so they understand that it is a flawed game.
You don't KNOW 3S is a good game, you BELIEVE 3S is a good game because you are a fanboy.
@206 "Good players are the ones who talk the most about 3S's flaws"
- No, they think they know what they're talking about. Good players are the ones who spent much time PLAYING it, not talking about it. All those players you mentioned would lose against random people on GGPO. I mean it's obvious to me that those people are scrubs because they blamed SGGK to be broken...
I KNOW 3S is a good game because I understand how it works, because I played it for few years. Sure I got mad at beginning when my moves got parried a lot, didn't know how is that even possible, but I continued playing it and I'm glad I did, because it's the best SF game ever. Like I said, only the most dedicated players can play 3S.
#207
Alright straw dog, you want to see why 3S, and blind 3S fanboys like yourself, are stupid?
http://shoryuken.com/f2/parrying-good...
So, okay. According to you, Viscant is a scrub(despite him playing a game that is actually more technical than 3S). According to you, Arturo Sanchez, who also says Viscant is right and 3S is flawed in that thread, is a scrub. Because YOU know more than them about 3S, YOU are the 3S pro, and you're one of those "most dedicated players" playing "the best SF game ever."
Right.
@208 See, you got it.
Viscant is 3S scrub who thinks he understands how 3S works. He was probably so salty while writing that crap because he got owned in 3S. Simple as that. I saw few matches of Arturo Sanchez in 3S and he did some very stupid moves. I'm pretty sure I can beat them both.
Actually I am glad idiots like you listen to what those popular players have to say about 3S. It reduces amount of scrubs in 3S community.
Look, we all agree - 3S was 3S.
THIS IS 3S: Online. Agreed? So why would not do something new? Who rereleases the same thing? Does "The Big Lebowski" come out on multiple DVD's in the same case and with the same image quality? No. They improve the menus, rebuff the filming, add new extra's and put a new case over it. 3S needs balance changes, otherwise it's like re-releasing "Donnie Darko", a cult-hit too, with no new content. The pool of people interested is already so small, who would buy it?
It needs more than just some GGPO and an up-filter.
Good. Now the 3S fanboys can get off YouTube et al. and go back to mashing buttons online.
It's amazing how blinded they are by nostalgia. They don't want any new players in, they don't want improved gameplay, they just want to fap to the Genei Jin.