Capcom's Seth Killian dished a bit of behind the scenes info on the character balance in Super Street Fighter 4 recently — and went on to add that there may be some surprises in store for the arcade version, implying that there are balance tweaks in the works.Why did you guys change Gen so much in SSF4? You nerfed his EX-Oga invincibility, Medium Kick to Hands loop, his jump arc and other things. What he got in return wasn't enough. Did you set out to make Gen low tier?
Seth Killian: While I see where you're coming from with Gen, I can at least tell you that the game balance and tweaking almost never starts with the idea, "we should nerf so-and-so," (so Gen wasn't somehow targeted for being made weaker).
During the course of balancing, all the characters go on a bit of a rollercoaster ride of being stronger and weaker versions of themselves.
For instance, the Abel that was shipped was one of the strongest versions of Abel that existed during SSFIV development. This wasn't part of a master plan, and there is no pre-set scheme to try and make the rankings look one particular way (like "Gouken should be #1, and Blanka should be 8th!").
When it came time to ship the game, Abel went out the door as a relatively strong version of his different incarnations. For Gen (always a tricky character to balance, given his large amount of moves, and unusual features), he was caught a bit on the lower side.
I certainly don't feel Gen is somehow hopeless (and lord knows I've done my fair share of losing to him), but I see the issues and am certainly unhappy that a lot of Gen-loving players seem to like him less than they did before.
Arcade version of SSFIV may have some surprises in store, so stay tuned...
This silhouette means C. Viper is in Marvel vs. Capcom 3, correct? I think she's a lousy character to choose, she doesn't fit the game. This means Captain Commando is out, right?
Christian Svensson: I think you should all just "wait and see" instead of jumping to conclusions. But to each their own. :-X
Are you going to add trophy support to SSF2T HD Remix? Will SF3 Online Edition have trophies?
Seth Killian: There are no plans right now for updates or patches to SF HD Remix. This, "no plans right now," includes the work required to add trophy support, unfortunately, but yes, SFIII: 3S Online Edition will include full support for trophies on PS3.
I have noticed that some of your games have reversible covers on them, why is this and doesn't this add cost on your end?
Seth Killian: We've done it before as fan service (as with SFIV, where the various packages included a lot of fan art as reversible alternatives), but yes, in general, it adds cost without many people internally thinking it adds value for you guys. I certainly think it's cool personally, so I'll raise it for a few future titles.
As for what art to include on the reverse side, is it always other regions boxart that you'd like, or would more chances for fan input be what you prefer?
Posted by RA_MO on September 2, 2010 at 3:17 p.m. #1
I reeeeeeally need to get my ps3 fixed! :(
Posted by alfarin on September 2, 2010 at 3:19 p.m. #2
Good answers from seth.
On the C. Viper issue - I hate Yun and Yang beyond belief. But if they get added to SSFIV, I wont really care to be fair. There's a whole other roster of characters to pick from people!
Posted by zUkUu on September 2, 2010 at 3:21 p.m. #3
^ppl end up playing the same character anyway... ryu that is... doenst matter if they add 2, 6 or 2900 characters...
Posted by RA_MO on September 2, 2010 at 3:22 p.m. #4
The way I see it, if you do not like the character, they are just another butt you can kick.
Posted by KenScrub on September 2, 2010 at 3:22 p.m. #5
@2 For real. I hate them too. If super is getting those 2 clowns then I want to see C. Viper in MvC3.
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 3:26 p.m. #6
I wanna see Yun and Yang in SSF4....that would bring this game millions. And too all the people who swear they know everything about everything and say they would be redundant...you guys must've never owned a copy of Street Fighter 3rd Strike cuz they fought differently. I agree with 3...people do, unless the character looks awesomely and undeniably cool...(Ken masters).
Posted by Taxattack123 on September 2, 2010 at 3:29 p.m. #7
Viper a lousy choice for the game? I should kick this person's head.
Posted by JohnJohnson on September 2, 2010 at 3:31 p.m. #8
I did not know that about Abel. Cool.
BTW, the person who said that Viper wouldn't fit into MvC and is a "lousy" character, NEEDS TO BE PUNCHED IN THE FACE A MILLION TIME FOR SUCH A STUPID STATEMENT! Viper is another character I really like and for someone to say something like that just ticks me off.
Posted by MnM on September 2, 2010 at 3:33 p.m. #9
Please Capcom make Guy stronger :( ... Almost every new challenger sucks on wake ups
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 3:35 p.m. #10
Viper is probably the best candidate for mvc3 out of all the new characters who made there DEBUT in sf4 and ssf4.
Posted by RisingStar on September 2, 2010 at 3:36 p.m. #11
gen, makoto and hakan need a buff bad, guy i think just needs to be faster...
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 3:37 p.m. #12
@RA_MO Yeah you def need to get your PS3 fixed, I wanna fight some people on here :D
I think C Viper (or any of the NEW cast in the sf series) would be awesome, I don't know why but for some reason Rufus pops up in my head and I never EVER play the guy :S
Anyways, I think all the characters that have a history in tournaments etc should be in the game only to see what JWong and friends can do with this new incarnation. Amirite?
Posted by Hadododouken on September 2, 2010 at 3:37 p.m. #13
It doesn't matter if you like Viper and want her in MvC3, or if you don't. It doesn't matter if you like Yun and Yang and want them in SSFIV, or if you don't. If they do, you can't do a damn thing about it and I highly doubt that any of you would stop playing the game for that sole reason. Stop bitching. If it happens, it happens. And it probably will, so get ready to deal with it, you whiny idiots.
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 3:38 p.m. #14
Btw I was talkin' about MVC3 in regards to the last section of the above article.
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 3:40 p.m. #15
@Hadododouken I'm counting the minutes 'til Catalyst replies to you :P
Also, they're not oblivious y'know. They do take fan feedback into consideration.
Posted by MALDA on September 2, 2010 at 3:41 p.m. #16
Yun and Yang they got swag
Posted by zUkUu on September 2, 2010 at 3:41 p.m. #17
and buff gen. period.
Posted by TheParryIsPro on September 2, 2010 at 3:48 p.m. #18
its to bad yun will most likely not have his genei jin as an ultra.
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 3:48 p.m. #19
@Hadododouken
Your the one that sounds like a whiny idiot if anything....just saying. Character speculation is by all means fine and if you dont like the "bitching or whining" then you can leave...no ones stopping you. Hell, no one would probably care.
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 3:52 p.m. #20
@Chris_Freakin_Frost - PP+100 BP+15000
Posted by ChunLi on September 2, 2010 at 3:54 p.m. #21
"I have noticed that some of your games have reversible covers on them, why is this and doesn't this add cost on your end?"
SERIOUSLY? Of all the questions to ask, this was one that they just HAD to include? Whoever asks these questions deserve an EX Hyakuretsu-Kyaku to the face.
Posted by gluemchen on September 2, 2010 at 3:55 p.m. #22
Sven and S-Kill should once and a while try and respond to the pc players aswell. Nothing new for me here to be hyped about.
Posted by chickenwings on September 2, 2010 at 3:56 p.m. #23
another balance pass could be interesting. The only character that stands out as total crap happens to be hakan and maybe even deejay(seriously, guile makes him totally redundant). But the things the game really needs wont happen, ie no more crouch teching, stricter inputs, better netcode(for christs sake give me ping numbers, im tired of people joining green and then fighting under water).
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 3:57 p.m. #24
@R4HU1 - Lol....?
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 3:59 p.m. #25
@Chris_Freakin_Frost - Yes, Lol.
Posted by PsychoJosh on September 2, 2010 at 4:04 p.m. #26
@9 Sorry but he's right, Viper sucks horse cock and to think of a slot being wasted on that vapid, ugly whore is offensive to everyone. She is bar none the worst female character in Capcom history, I don't care about the efficacy of her moves because the point is she's just a terrible person.
Posted by Hadododouken on September 2, 2010 at 4:05 p.m. #27
Character speculation is one thing, but unnecessary character complaining is another.
Posted by Ex_Ein on September 2, 2010 at 4:15 p.m. #28
only way to keep people flooding to the old trusty characters is to...GET RID OF THEM
Posted by Raven on September 2, 2010 at 4:16 p.m. #29
If characters are added for the convenience of Capcom and not fans, they aren't extending the life of their product by any means. There needs to be a fair amount of consideration when it comes to adding someone to a roster, and the user base is an important one.
Personally, one of the wins would be sufficient.
Posted by Raven on September 2, 2010 at 4:17 p.m. #30
One of the "twins." My bad. xD
Posted by RisingStar on September 2, 2010 at 4:18 p.m. #31
viper is great and fits well in mvc3, cant wait, now we just need bison from sf...
Posted by Magic037 on September 2, 2010 at 4:23 p.m. #32
@28. I completely agree viper is a really shallow character the only thing making her remotely interesting is the fact that she's a mom dozens of other characters are more deserving of that spot I'm sure alot of shotos are being taken out keeping akuma in this game is a prime example of someone more deserving of this slot
Posted by Moosh on September 2, 2010 at 4:25 p.m. #33
Gen was pretty close to bottom of the barrel in vanilla, dunno what they were thinking when they made all the changes that made him worse in Super.
Posted by Hadododouken on September 2, 2010 at 4:26 p.m. #34
On a different note, I do think Viper will function better in MvC3 than in SSFIV.
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. #35
@Hadododouken - Yeah she's similar to Captain Commando, there was a video posted on here a while ago. Pretty sweet.
Posted by Cammystrike on September 2, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. #36
@PsychoJosh Viper doesn't suck, she just takes actual skill to use. People that bitch and complain that she sucks obviously have terrible execution then. And wow did you honestly say she shouldn't be in because she's ugly and a terrible person? I didn't know being a kind hearted angle was a prerequisite for being included in a fighting game. Honestly I couldn't careless about her being portrayed as a bitch so long as her gameplay is good, which in all cases it's just fine in SF4 and will be even sicker after getting an exaggerated treatment in MVC3.
Posted by Nukka on September 2, 2010 at 4:37 p.m. #37
I think the 'surprise' is gonna have something to do with old characters getting new moves, like Ryu could get his side kick from 3rd strike as we've seen it in the SFxT vids.
@Hado What's wrong with Viper in super?
Posted by Jigo on September 2, 2010 at 4:42 p.m. #38
Do not touch the high teir characters. Just make the lower tier better so wecan see more characters in tournies. I think evryone would want that.
o yeah, Yun and Yang are the s--t
Posted by PsychoJosh on September 2, 2010 at 4:48 p.m. #39
@Cammystrike I wasn't complaining about Viper's moves you idiot, I don't give a rat's ass about her moves. Moves are an interchangable substrate and her moves in particular can be given to anybody. I'm talking about her design. She's a total bitch with absolutely no redeeming qualities to her personality and she's just plain hideous to look at. As a character she is a vapid money-grubbing c*nt who speaks condescendingly to everyone she meets. She is the worst female character in SF history because unlike all the other female characters she has absolutely no endearing traits whatsoever. I don't want her in MVC3 because she is a flat-out terrible character and there are far more deserving ones to be considered, simple as that. She is on the very bottom of the league table of characters that deserve to be in this game. I'm sorry you're too stupid to understand.
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 4:51 p.m. #40
Yang>Yun and Viper>Commando....FTW!
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 4:52 p.m. #41
What's with that Yun and Yang HATE? Get a grip guys, they are AWESOME characters and definitely fit the game!
The only thing I DON'T WANT is Yun (or any of them) being ridiculously strong as he was in Third Strike.
Posted by Fightingfan69 on September 2, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. #42
What Seth had mentioned here he stated in one of the posts at SRK in the Gen forums where many complained on how much Gen has changed. Nearly copied and pasted it.
Hen need something more. I'm not sure what it is. Meter gain back? able to do his EX oga or Mk~hands loop? (It's there though not as predominant) I like that more of the moves in Crane seem ......useful but that's all I like about Gen right now. It's nice to read that they may indeed do something about Gen and maybe some more of the lower tiered characters. I know tiers don't matter to some but it comes to a point when they see a the tier list those low characters aren't played that much more often becuase of their positioning.
Hmm if Yun and Yang are in, I would not mind them whatsoever. I would prefer Karin Rolento, Elen and Alex.
Those that are saying everyone will go back to Ryu or Ken? I will never play Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sagat or any fireball shoryuken character other than Gouken. Gouken in no way play like these guys. I prefer more interesting characters like, Gen, Makoto, Abel, Fei, and Guy.
Posted by PsychoJosh on September 2, 2010 at 4:59 p.m. #43
Yun and Yang don't fit the game in the slightest possible way. They'd be going up against characters who can cast lightning storms and giant screen-filling 100-foot laser beams, I doubt their piffling little punches and kicks are going to hold a candle to that.
Posted by PsychoJosh on September 2, 2010 at 5 p.m. #44
Oh wait nevermind I thought we were talking about MVC3.
Posted by chickenwings on September 2, 2010 at 5:02 p.m. #45
@42
looking at the current tier list the only one high slot that sticks out is chun, the only thing u would need to do is bring her normals back to what they were in sf4(it made no freakin sense to improve them). That would loosen up alot of those 6s she got. After that its just tweaks from the low to mid and alot more should open up(hopefully).
Posted by Bison on September 2, 2010 at 5:02 p.m. #46
Guys, vote for Bison in this Gamespot vote. Currently losing to Darth Malak.
http://www.gamespot.com/greatest-vide...
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 5:03 p.m. #47
@PsychoJosh
Wow dude, try reading before you say things that dont even relate to the topic. People always wanna hate...
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 5:07 p.m. #48
TIERS MEAN NOTHING. Its all about skill....tiers ARE NOTHING. AT. ALL.
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 5:11 p.m. #49
ChunLi #22
And you pretty lady deserve a nice NERF in the uncoming balance tweaks.
Honestly, Chun-Li was fine in SF4 and didn't need the buffs. Isn't one game (Third Strike) enough of Chun-Li's domination?
Is leaving Chun-Li ONLY as a HIGH TIER too much to ask? Do you really need to have her at the TOP, AGAIN?
Posted by PsychoJosh on September 2, 2010 at 5:11 p.m. #50
Yeah "tiers mean nothing" may have had meaning in a game like 3rd Strike but in SSF4 it doesn't mean anything at all.
Posted by Saikobooru on September 2, 2010 at 5:17 p.m. #51
I want Yang so I can kick people's asses Trowa style.
Posted by kirbykirbykirby on September 2, 2010 at 5:20 p.m. #52
Since servbot made it to mvc2 they can add anyone to the roster and get away with it
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 5:23 p.m. #53
SSF4 Arcade version>MVC3
Posted by throughsilence on September 2, 2010 at 5:25 p.m. #54
If you think tiers don't matter, you're clearly an idiot. Everyone can say it boils down to skill, and even with that, match ups are way tougher with lower tier, so you'll still have a lower probability of winning even if both players were at the same skill level.
Posted by PhinnyCupcakes on September 2, 2010 at 5:40 p.m. #55
@Jigo
A change for a lower tier character to give them a better match with one character could give them an extreme advantage over another.
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 5:42 p.m. #56
chickenwings #49
I'm SO GLAD someone agrees with me about Chun-Li (and I'm not talking about the fact that she's hot, lol!).
She has not only gained one of the easiest to use ultras, but also had her normals improved! No surprise, she already dominates in JAPANESE tournaments...
Posted by SaitoKojima on September 2, 2010 at 5:43 p.m. #57
I loved how the Asia region for Super SF4 had both the US and Japanese version boxart. All you had to do was reverse it around.
Posted by Kipper on September 2, 2010 at 5:44 p.m. #58
@43 PsychoJosh
Uhh, do you have that rant copied down so you can paste it at anyone who likes Viper?
Here's the deal:
-Her appearance is a matter of opinion. I think she looks cool.
-She isn't the nicest person, sure. I don't think anyone is saying she is. Is it wrong for other "bad" characters like Bison or Balrog to have fans?
-Her gameplay is fun (which matters to a lot of people).
-Stop calling people stupid, it isn't helping your case.
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 5:45 p.m. #59
@Chris_Freakin_Frost - You're comparing two different games, one of which hasn't even come out yet...
Posted by Addict on September 2, 2010 at 5:45 p.m. #60
Ive got to say that Gen Hakan. Need buff ups. Im not so sure about Makoto i think she is doing way better. Maybe add more stun to her punches and she'd be amazing as well as feared. Guy, i really cant give a good opinion because i had my handed to me by one Guy player who knew what he was doing.
Posted by zombie_9mm on September 2, 2010 at 5:47 p.m. #61
yes for fixing gen, but you dont have to give him his mk hands loop back. just fix olga and his 2nd set of ultras cause theyre worthless. just sayin his ultra shouldnt get beat by a dp or a mp in the air.
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 5:48 p.m. #62
@Kipper - I agree, she's just another one of those characters and you know what? She's a favourite for some but for others she doesn't matter. Insulting somebody solely on an opinion-based argument is pretty foolish itself... how has anybody wronged another by liking Viper?
Posted by Cammystrike on September 2, 2010 at 5:51 p.m. #63
@ PsychoJosh, Nice just the kind or response I was expecting from a primeape like yourself. The first thing you can do is insult me and call me out of name, when I did no such thing to you to begin with. I simply called you out on your absurd and put simple stupid reasons why she shouldn't be in. And by your response debating me on the subject is obviously something you're not capable of if calling me an idiot and reposting what I responded to was the best you can come up with.
As smart as you tried to sound in your post all you wrote was she's a mean person that likes money. Cry me a river plenty of characters have less then ideal personalities, who gives a crap it's a fighting game not a story driven rpg. How a character will fight should be and most likely is the founding factor of how a character is chosen, not their morale shortcomings. And do me a favor don't respond, because I don't think I could take any more of your idiocy.
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 6:04 p.m. #64
Mad salty
Posted by TheCreator on September 2, 2010 at 6:17 p.m. #65
LOL salty
Posted by R4HU1 on September 2, 2010 at 6:23 p.m. #66
YO STREETFIGHTERFAN1 I'MMA FIND YOU AND POOP ON YO' CHEST!
Posted by ChunLi on September 2, 2010 at 6:30 p.m. #67
@R4HU1
TELL HIM LIKE IT IS!
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 6:33 p.m. #68
Buffing 5 lowest tiers seems REASONABLE.
I often play GUY and he could definitely get some help. In SSF4 he looks like a HORRIBLE incarnation of his Alpha counterpart. Trust me, I don't want to make him a high tier/dominant character... but some things about him in SSF4 just don't make sense!! (And make him worse then he should be...)
1. In Alpha many of his moves (especially NORMALS) had incredible range. In SSF4 when I look at his sMK or cHP I wanna LAUGH!! (In contrary some of CHUN-LI's normals like her sHK or netral jHK have ridiculous range! Since when can she stretch her legs like DHALSIM??)
2. The fact that his Ex Tornado DOESN'T hit behind (doesn't stuff cross ups) is a SIN! It really looks like it should have hitboxes there. Sadly, that's his only high invincibility "get off of me" move... OF COURSE Chun-Li's equivalent move (ex Spinning Bird Kick) stuffs cross ups:(
3. Overhead (Neck Breaker) is weak, one hit only, AND leaves you at a disadvantage.
Those are just some of the things...
Posted by chickenwings on September 2, 2010 at 6:52 p.m. #69
@73
Alot of characters got hurt makeing the leap to 4. Deejay in paticular is just trash when stacked up with turbo deejay. ANd then u have makato, a character that could easily become broken with a few improvements, but the real reason she struggles is because her risk vs reward style doesnt translate well into the turtle friendly sf4. Yea its a different game but u should still be able to keep the characters play style intact. If not dont bring the character to the game.
Posted by tokyobassist on September 2, 2010 at 7:03 p.m. #70
@Nelaelu
I agree with you Guy isn't as good in Alpha but he's got quite a few new options he's never had due to super canceling and whatnot. Plus the juggle system is different (Bushin Chain corner juggles in 4 would be too LOLZ) so I'll say fix up the wake up game & buff the 'bow (overhead) for now.
Posted by Quake2815 on September 2, 2010 at 7:14 p.m. #71
Make sagat's s.lk hit once again or make the 2nd hit cancel to special move.
Posted by Chris_Freakin_Frost on September 2, 2010 at 7:14 p.m. #72
Wow...if people on here are complaining about Chun Li in SSF4.....you guys really must not be good. Chun Li takes skill to use in SF4, shes nothin compared to the Ryu/Kens/Balrogs online. In 3rd Strike...eh..i wont lie shes kinda godly, Yuns godlike as well. Bottom line is..tiers shouldnt matter in SSF4 but in games like 3rd Strike and Mvc, thats where theyre an issue...but anyways...who you guys all main in SSF4 as of right now?
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 7:22 p.m. #73
About Ken's Ultra 2 (Guren Senpukyaku):
Is it really necessary to make that move HOVER next to the opponent after it's blocked low???
It looks kinda STUPID and more importantly creates UNEXCITING MOMENTS in the fight where opponents wait until the pointess hovering ends...
It would make so much more sense to make the move GO OVER the crouchers (like all tornado kicks do!)
In order to punish the enemy would have to block up (the chip damage isn't that bad). And if he really wanted to avoid chip damage, he would have to crouch and try to punish the move after it GOES BEHIND (which isn't that difficult to punish near the corner). That change would definitely make those couple of seconds in the fight MORE EXCITING - as you would wonder what approach enemy's going to take.
Ken's ultra1 is terrible at chip damage. Why can't you make this second different (DECENT at it)?? I don't think that would be much of a buff for Ken anyways...
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 7:41 p.m. #74
chickenwings #74
It's all true, but I'm not asking for any huge changes. I don't want to bring the Alpha Guy back (and create a new Vanilla Sagat). I'm only asking for very small/reasonable buffs that could SLIGHTLY help him. If he gains 5 points on the tier list and gets closer to the MID-LOW characters like Sakura and Juri I'LL BE SATISFIED! Especially, if at least one of his 3-7 bad match ups disappears (maybe Balrog, Honda??)
Posted by DomDaDude on September 2, 2010 at 7:52 p.m. #75
YO VOTE BISON! HES LOSING TO STAR WARS!!
http://www.gamespot.com/greatest-vide...
Posted by TheRakeClown on September 2, 2010 at 7:57 p.m. #76
thank god capcom have actually admitted to the cock up with Gens nukin-..i mean "balance changing" lol. i understand it must be hard for them because he is such a tricky character but other tricky characters in this game cope really well at the top level.
i did semi drop gen for the past month (after maining him for well over a year now) and have picked up viper... looking at his statement for the arcade patch brings me hope for my former main lol.
his problem is that he needs expert execution to be played well, but even when you put in the hard work and effort to tune your excution up to a high level.. the reward just is not there. the invincibility start up on the oga needs to braught back. id also like the full mk hands loop to come back (however it was a bit broken) with a slight damage nurf it (not crazily) and then gen is perfectly fine.
removing the mk hands loop caused 1 thing. OGA'S, OGA'S EVERYWHERE lmao. it gets spammed at the lower levels on online play causing me to die a little on the inside (just seeing them crouched full screen away in the crane stance... like no1 will ever see it coming lmao!). peace.
Posted by Zaiha on September 2, 2010 at 8:14 p.m. #77
@77
Thank you! People have complaining that Chun-li is too strong and needs to be nerfed, but I don't know why. You still have to work for your wins with her.
P.S I main Chun-li and Sakura but I have been playing Chun-li since vanilla
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 8:20 p.m. #78
Chris_Freakin_Frost on September #77
Well, I'm talking about Chuns that know how to shut down your options. They are nuts and the improved normals and new easy-to-use ultra made it worse...
Please don't justify everything by saying she "takes skill to use." Maybe, but you think Ken is easy-to-use at a high level competition? Can you do Kara Shoryukens, do ultra 2 set ups/use it against projectiles... CONSISTENTLY?
True, in SSF4 she isn't as nutz as in Third Strike, but you CAN'T have the same balance expectations from games that are separated by a DECADE! Because of tournaments, DLC's, online play, and internet fanbase you can balance games WAY BETTER NOWADAYS!
Posted by chickenwings on September 2, 2010 at 8:32 p.m. #79
@83
U act like she really needed improvements in super. Improveing her normals just made it so u cant poke her with most of the cast. ANd then she is in fact the turtle queen. fadc backdash gets u out of almost anything unless i do something insanely unsafe. Most of the time i fight them its either i corner guard and destroy(they dont know how to play) or it becomes a waiting game since the only real way to fight turtle chun li is to turtle her back.
Posted by PsychoCrusher on September 2, 2010 at 8:38 p.m. #80
@ 78
I completely agree with you and i dont even play Ken
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 8:39 p.m. #81
Zaiha #83
Right, and I main Sagat since Vanilla and I didn't want him to get nerefed either...(LAUGH!!!)
Obviously, she isn't as nuts as Sagat in Vanilla, but she's still NUTZ... All other top tiers have one 3-7 bad match-up (on the current tier list), except her. And she only has 4 4-6's...
I think she's balanced, but she just DIDN'T NEED those BUFFS for SSF4. She was fine as a high tier in Vanilla...
I'd rather see E.Honda at the very top by himself FOR A CHANGE (Third Strike reference)
Posted by chickenwings on September 2, 2010 at 8:52 p.m. #82
@87
U can argue some of those 4s. Blanka doesnt beat her. Her normals are 10 times better, she has an ultra that punishs the ball on block. Mind u she will turtle and blanka has nothing to really open her up. Thats a 6 4 chun. AKuma and viper look legit but rufus is questionable. Again, better pokes, her back dash is gonna get her out of alot her, and dont forget that air throw. This one might be more of a 5.
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 8:57 p.m. #83
chickenwings #85
Exactly, at least if her LP projectile was much suckier then Chun would have to play more offensively, and the fight would be MORE EXCITING. I wouldn't mind those improved pokes then...
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 9 p.m. #84
PsychoCrusher #86
Thanks, it's nice to see that other players agree about it... Cheers!
Posted by skylight on September 2, 2010 at 9:06 p.m. #85
c.viper, cap commando, bison, ect.....it dnt matter who you put in the game, i will be a very happy person once the game comes out.
everyone thats complaining are just thinking too much.
although, i would like to see my favorite marvel character, nightcrawler.
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 9:08 p.m. #86
chickenwings #88
I wonder if any of those match ups you mentioned will change in the next tier list. Quite possible I say, cause Japan is switching to Chun... they must have a reason! (laugh)
Posted by chickenwings on September 2, 2010 at 9:08 p.m. #87
@89
Like i said before, shes a turtle queen, theres no reason to push up. She makes guile look like a straight rush down character(even though when i use him i play up, he has all the tools why the hell not). her fireballs are fine, the only problem is that her normals got an unessary buff. People might think its important but good normals will make the difference in alot of matchups.
But honeslty looking at the teir list alot of it i cant agree with. Bison shouldnt be that high. THey did the same thing to him when sf4 first came out, he was under sagat and then droped. He has nice pressure and great normals but he has no real comback potential(only way to really comeback is with tricks and pressure, not as good as something like fadc ultra). cammy,ryu,akuma arent 6s for bison. And after evo idk about honda geting a 7 on adon. Hopefully a new list comes soon
Posted by geodude on September 2, 2010 at 9:33 p.m. #88
everyone that's complaining would complain no matter who is on top. stop making excuses for losing - that's why japanese players will always have the edge - they pick who they want and learn the ins and outs.
Posted by chickenwings on September 2, 2010 at 9:43 p.m. #89
@94
so if the updare did somethin like improve balrogs jab u wouldnt say anythin? lol
Posted by rell1989 on September 2, 2010 at 9:55 p.m. #90
I wish some one would explain y everybody thinks gen is such a bad character he has to many cross up that lead to big damage he can super or ultra from almost ant situation his jump is still weird in his off the wall dive didn't use to be safe on block but now it isi have to say he's the one character besides adon that can give fireball characters hell so I've fought some really good gen players in still do so anyone saying he sucks now just can't play with him.
Posted by dondb on September 2, 2010 at 9:57 p.m. #91
Take out Sagat and put in Bob Saget.
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 9:59 p.m. #92
Everyone, we have a new topic on the FORUM:
"SUGGEST YOUR BALANCE TWEAKS FOR ARCADE SSF4"
Lets put our NERFS and BUFFS wishlist in one place!
Posted by giefgrief on September 2, 2010 at 10 p.m. #93
as a gen player SSF4 bummed me out. Tier listing aside, he's just not as fun to play.
Posted by rell1989 on September 2, 2010 at 10 p.m. #94
I think honda has the edge on adon
Posted by Nelaelu on September 2, 2010 at 10:01 p.m. #95
geodude #94
That's why they abused Sagat in Vanilla and now are switching to Chun-Li... lol, LOL!!
Posted by SecretCharacter on September 2, 2010 at 10:02 p.m. #96
If they just gave Gen his EX inv. back on oga, Gen would be a lot better. NO reason to remove it when Akuma and Bison can teleport for free.
What I would really like is for it to hit on the way up like vega.
I think Gekiro should have juggle abilities after (crane) jump roundhouse.
Give Gen his chain combos.
Gen has some of the best pokes in the game, but he has absolutely no way to advance from them, he can only push the opponent back to safety.
They should also add more hitstun to the first hit of his roll, or make it quicker, and reduce his charge time (for both roll and oga). On a cross-up you have to hit the opponent four times to allow enough time to charge the roll, and because of this the push back is too far to add anything but the lp roll to the combo.
I think that mk hands should stay the same, except allow the lp and mp to cancel all hits like the fp. plus EX hands should do more hits or damage. its not worth the meter now.
Give Gen his airthrow!!!
and give him back his low jump arc in mantis.
and finally give him one walk speed (crane of course)
Posted by rell1989 on September 2, 2010 at 10:02 p.m. #97
gief grief explain y??? Or do you just miss that link he had with the hand chops that did tons of damage???
Posted by rell1989 on September 2, 2010 at 10:26 p.m. #98
secret character I'm glad you aint the creator of ssf4 cause it sound like you want a super character when gen crosses up he has so many options to take down health it's ridiculous I think gens a good character the thing is you don't have enough good players that play with him the tier list for vanilla wernt to acurate to me besides sagat being s classed gen shoulda been higher in dhalsim was a low tier in I know if you've played enough you ran into some dhalsims that almost made you wanna launch somthing into the tv. But ssf4 is truly balanced to me.
Posted by SHAHEENuk on September 3, 2010 at 2:49 a.m. #99
Gen getting buffed.
ex ogo escape like his sf4 would be cool.
Posted by rell1989 on September 3, 2010 at 2:56 a.m. #100
dude ima adon in cody player gens not my style but all I'm saying is every body crying bout his lil tweaks when he has so many tools to use still croos up crounching light options he also has nice anti airs to in air to air that lead to ultra so o don't get it.
Posted by Sparxx01 on September 3, 2010 at 3:33 a.m. #101
@ rake clown yea i know what u mean man.
to be honest i would be pretty ok if gen just got the invincible ex oga back. in super once im in the corner im pretty much dead with no escape options. rell once u learn how to block gens cross ups im pretty sure u wont think he's so good. its obvious u have fallen for a lot of cross up kicks to lk juggle then super - ultra. his oga is not safe. i get punished up the ass if i dont do it deep enough. i play with the same guys in endless almost every night and they can pretty much block my cross up in their sleep now. in fact i CANNOT jump in on one of them at all lol. thats where the challenge is and it helps me cuz i have to find other ways to attack without relying so much on cross ups.
so basically:
*ex oga invincibility
*extra damage on the gekiro OR gens vanilla meter qualities back
*make the gekiro have some balls please...i have been beaten clean by a jab before.
the hands loop was a lil broken cuz thats all gen was reduced to in vanilla.
then ill be pretty ok.
gen will still be hard to win with but at least ill have some stuff to work with.
Posted by TheRakeClown on September 3, 2010 at 3:59 a.m. #102
@ sparxx01
those changes you listed there are perfect. i don't care too much about hands... though it took me about a month and then some to learn the full combo ¬_¬ (3 weeks after id learnt it capcom was all "lololol no mk hands loop guyz"). his gekiro used to have a much better hitbox and gen would build meter so quickly.. now i'll go as far as to say he builds meter VERY slowly for the work you have to put in.
id go with your changes, no need for the mk hands loop. and instead of the gekiro getting a hitbox buff (cuz EX gekiro got way better) id sort out that pissy new crane ultra that does good damage, changes the game somewhat... but trades like a mother f@#*er
Posted by rell1989 on September 3, 2010 at 5 a.m. #103
even when you block is he's got options... The fact he can switch his whole style up on the fly make it a guessing game in sparxx if you leting people put your gen in the corner your in bad shape
Posted by Sparxx01 on September 3, 2010 at 5:39 a.m. #104
lool @ rake clown..capcom did take the piss lol.
and yea i did forget about the teiga. that ultra gets owned by jump normals like a b**ch lol.
@rell yea u might be right about me being in bad shape...but im pretty sure most...if not every gen player is fully experienced in being stuck in the corner blocking and teching throw after throw, waiting for an opening. in super at least.
Posted by UAE4HAMAD on September 3, 2010 at 5:48 a.m. #105
Yeah capcom as usual Gen is a low tier character because this character gotta few fans but guile when he was a normal character a lot of guile and bison players were crying to make him one of the top tier characters …. Why capcom why cuz we are a few fans of Gen !! by the way Gen is hard to play with less health than other character is that fear
@102
I totally agree with the changes you mentioned we need some buffed for Gen moves so the important moves are :
1-Ex Oga escapes should give back to Gen like in Vanilla part.
2- His jump arch should be like Gen jump in vanilla cuz in here I have a problems playing with Good Guile players.
3-his rolling should be faster .
4- fix his new ultras.
5- give him more damages moves.
6- fix his normal gekro and increase the damages
We don’t need his mk – hands loop to come back just make his crane style faster and his oga faster too.
Looking for GEN to come back again
Posted by Ryu_Apprentice on September 3, 2010 at 5:54 a.m. #106
gen is sick, so why should he be strong dude?! he is cursed with a frail body so he has to deal with it
Posted by UAE4HAMAD on September 3, 2010 at 6:10 a.m. #107
yeah one more thing ... we need more links between mantis and crane styles ....
Ryu_Apprentice
loool yeah in the story he is sick, but in the gameplay he wamt the final battle to the DEATH Nyahahahahaha
Shin Gen For the Win hhhh
Posted by onifuz on September 3, 2010 at 7 a.m. #108
my english is garbage but i'll try to give my point on the buff i want with gen...
i'm agree with you guys when you said gen don't need his loop anymore, he just need more power because gen 15 hits combo cause less damage than a 4 hits of cammy/ryu/etc... i just want to say : WTF ?!? T_T
he needs a safer oga... it's possible to make some ogas safe in this version but it's really really hard.
he needs his evading ex oga OR more prioritys with his gekiro. how many times i want to counter with it and all the cast break my move with anything ! with the ex version too ! T_T
btw, all his normal needs more priority...
he needs a faster jyasen, i can't make some nice combos with it because the startup is too slow or i don't buffer enough. and it's very difficult to link a jyasen after cross-up...
and please capcom, fix teiga ! this move trade with anything !( and when it trade, it make 0 damage but gen have some damages... WTF again ?!? è_é" ).
i don't anything to tell about his jumps, it's fine for me but it's true it was easiest in vanilla...
Posted by Nelaelu on September 3, 2010 at 4:28 p.m. #109
@UAE4HAMAD
@Sparxx01
@onifuz
@SecretCharacter
We have a SPECIAL topic for this on the FORUM:
"SUGGEST YOUR BALANCE TWEAKS FOR ARCADE SSF4"
You guys could put and discuss all your balance ideas there... Otherwise all your suggestions will be hard to find and forgotten after couple of weeks.
Posted by Nelaelu on September 3, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. #110
Just go to FORUMS enter SF4 and you will EASILY find it!
Lets make OUR opinions count!!
Posted by HavocWingPLZG on September 3, 2010 at 5:14 p.m. #111
On top of un-nerfing the obvious nerfs like bringing back ex oga full invincibilty or the good old mantis jump arc (the small one was really a lot more useful than the sloppy new big one) I would also like to suggest giving Gen back his alpha strings. I mean, if Guy can have them back, why not Gen? Back in the alpha series it's those two who were famous for those stylish link combos, so it's only natural for both of them have them in SSF4 too.
Posted by Tsu83 on September 4, 2010 at 12:04 p.m. #112
'...and am certainly unhappy that a lot of Gen-loving players seem to like him less than they did before'
it's not that i like him less now. i hate him! i can play online for hours, but if gen appears i just leave because i get mad when i see him.
its his new jump arch, that makes him a complete new character now. a character i dont like, cause i dont like to be in the air all the time..
and i dont understand why people say he doesnt need his mk-hands. i bought my arcade stick because of this combo! i mean if you get it done in a match (the 20 hits) you're just happy that you did it, not about the damage. such a hard combo with that low damage and still i was so happy about it. i did combo videos and spend days, weeks, months in the training room..
of course they cant give him NEW ultras, thats okay. the first set is great. just who invented the non-damage ultra? specially in a combo its scaled down almost to a focused hadoken..
the invincibility of the oga would be nice, but i could live without it. if he gets the jump arch and the mk-hands i wouldn't call him broken anymore and i'd be back to my main..
Posted by UAE4HAMAD on September 4, 2010 at 1:28 p.m. #113
Nelaelu
could u plz give us the link at the Capcom-unity
i couldnt find it !!
Posted by Nelaelu on September 4, 2010 at 2:15 p.m. #114
http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic...
If that doesn't help then again:
1. Look at the top of this page. It says: News, SSF4, MvC3 etc. One of the (at the end) says "FORUMS"
2. After you picked forums go to "Street Fighter 4 Series" - It's the very first one there.
3. After picking SF4 SCROLL DOWN. You will see it:
"SUGGEST YOUR BALANCE TWEAKS FOR ARCADE SSF4"
Cheers!
Posted by Cascadian1106 on September 4, 2010 at 7:36 p.m. #115
@Nelaelu Post#53
You're actually quite mistaken as there are quite a few games that Chun Li is known to be in the top tier and as for dominating the rest of the cast, don't forget that she was also God-tier in SFA2. That game actually had the most powerful version of Chun Li I've ever seen in a SF game.
Posted by Nelaelu on September 5, 2010 at 11:03 a.m. #116
Cascadian1106 #120
Thank you for a VERY INFORMATIVE response. The thing is SFA and SFA2 aren't really played competitively anymore (maybe SFA3) and tiers might be "rusty"/outdated for those games (?). Of course that doesn't change the fact that your agument is ABSOLUTELY LEGITIMATE.
NO MORE Chun-Li at the top, PLEASE!! (at least for a while)
