Two excellent foreign Super Street Fighter 4 players, V-Ryu and Alioune, competed in an online first to 5 match recently, and a video archive of their set is available.
VRyu is my inspiration to keep playing Makoto. It's cool to see both my girls being used at this level of play.
Anyone have a Youtube link¿ UStream doesn't work for me.
This video is Exhibit A for the existence of tiers.
One character has great tools and an answer for everything, the other requires capitalization on mistakes or hesitation for damage.
#14
Cammy's walk speed is among the fastest in the game, just because her throw range is short does not mean that it is easy to tech her throws. Her throw game is quite strong. It eats even high level players alive combined with her dive kick pressure.
V-Ryu did not play sloppy, he played extremely well. He was not pressing buttons because he is poor at defending, but more because Makoto gets absolutely crushed by Cammy's dive kick pressure as it is incredibly ambiguous and hard for characters with far better get-off-me tools than Makoto has to deal with. And Makoto has none of those tools. If he had just sat there trying to look for an opening, he would have been giving Alioune free meter, taking possibly huge damage, and no opening would have ever came.
V-Ryu's play in this vid demonstrates an amazing use of almost every single Makoto shenanigan, some amazing combos, and great use of all of her tools against an aggressive, top level Cammy. It's very easy to sit back and say "V-Ryu's defense sucks donkey balls, he shouldn't have been pressing buttons." I ask you, what would you have done?
And tiers dont exist in this game? Is this video evident enuff that she needs major overhaul? That is a clear demonstration of why all offense is not good for a character in a defensive based game...no wakeup options=free harrassment from dive kicks...gg to both players but man that crap makes me angry
so, people complain about cammy watching this, like its only her who do that to makoto, any char with decent offense rapes makoto when knocks her down, makoto is the problem, she was extremely bad adapted to sf4 engine, being last in a lot of tier lists while dan is in the game just shows that theres to many wrong stuff about her.
Cool matches. It seems like V-Ryu refused to block more than 2 or 3 hits from Alioune's assaults each time, regardless of the range of the attacks. I know he's trying to get Cammy off of him utilizing Makoto's very limited defensive options, but perhaps he should have been more patient. Still, excellent play.
I think that if EX Chop had just a tiny bit more invinc.frames, Makoto would at least have a meter draining go-to move for escaping pressure like the rest of the cast. (Average stamina would also be nice :D)
Otherwise, I feel that U2 is the best way to escape pressure, especially for the situations V-Ryu was finding himself in. Makoto probably walks the finest line between damage and utility when it comes to Ultra choice.
I spoke with vryu after thoses matchs on Tuesday. He explained some things, and why European top player with cammy in his hands rapes makoto.
Some things you guys have to know is that
1) cammy does not wake up as normal characters (same goes for sagat, blanka, adon, ibuki). Screwing a lot of makoto setups
2) she can use 4 lights before spiral arrow against makoto. So lot easier to confirm, and can use 2 low attacks before confirm. That’s very annoying while mixing crLK twice, crLK -> strike, crLK -> throw
3) if cammy performs a throw (backthrow), there is a safejump/ambiguous vortex mixup (jump HP hits in front, jump LK crossup. Funny..). And you cannot really see….you have to guess. If you miss, you take 30% damage, and knocked down again. That’s why getting thrown is not the solution against her. Of course you can use focus dash/backdash to try to avoid it, but you guys don’t seem to know alioune’s ridiculous reactions.
4) You cannot make her whiff her spike with tsurugi or jump HP or ambiguous jump, because of spike’s hitbox
5) You cannot use EX karakusa or EX oroshi in defense, but you already noticed that.
6) Option select techthrow with makoto (crMK OS) don’t work against alioune, because he delays his strike, so your OS techthrow miss and you get hit by the strike.
All of this seems to make this matchup completely retarded. Makoto seems to HAVE to attack, or she dies. She cannot block forever and has to guess a cammy 0% risk attack to get out of the pressure. And of course, because of the points above, any bad guess will result in lot of damage and vortex.
Alioune and me often told vryu to switch character, but he just doesn’t want. He likes makoto’s style too much... You know little girls... :x
By the way if you wanna rape VRYU just come to Beat By Contest tournament (www.beatbycontest.com) ;)
Ah thanks for dropping the knowledge, Fuma. Mad respect to both players.
#24 There is always a way out :) some matchups can be pretty annoying, for all character I like Blanka is the worst character to play against D:< Hate Blanka
The video is not working! I'm sure it would have been a great match to watch. Now though, I'm just staring at a blank Youstream screen.
You guys really need to stop bitching about Makoto. She is a good character with unique rush down tactics and well worthy of standing up to "top tier" characters. Here is why V-Ryu got mopped up...
- Alioune is playing a character that hasn't changed in almost 2 years. Thus has had all that time for her best tools and most damaging combos to be developed.
- V-Ryu is playing a character who has only been developed for a few months and he is the one pioneering most of her tools. Given another year Makoto will be just as deadly as Cammy in the right hands.
- Alioune is better. V-Ryu is great and should be commended for his work with such a complex character but he is not Alioune's level yet. Crouch teching too much, too many jumps, and not able to adapt to Alioune's mix up patterns.
I don't buy into Player Points too much but their difference in skill is illustrated pretty well with their point difference.
Makoto looks better on screen when the player using her is up against an opponent who has no idea or very little idea on how to handle her.
Makoto will never be any good in her current state. In 3rd strike it was all about getting a good read and the same could be said of Super Street Fighter, but getting a good read in 3rd strike meant your opponent could possibly end up dead. In SSFIV it's all about reads as well. Getting a good one or guessing right will net you some nice damage, but guess wrong and you're in for it big time. Not only that, but guessing wrong gets you on the back-foot. And as any Makoto player knows, being rushed down by your opponent is not nice.
Makoto is all about high risk. If you guess right, it looks nice and you score some nice damage. If you guess wrong, it's nasty to look at. It will often end up with the Makoto player stuck in a corner getting rushed down, with her only option being a EX Oroshi to get your opponent off. EX Karakusa works too, but is risky due to the recovery time if missed.
Makoto's a lot of fun, I play her myself. But she can't be taken seriously in tournament play or even a serious game on Xbox Live. You just can't consistently do right with Makoto, you have to guess and the trade off for guessing wrong is really bad for the Makoto player. In her current state she exists to catch a player off guard or to beat someone who isn't used to her. No one is going to consistently get bodied by Makoto and that is the simple truth of it.
@Shredilicious:
That's like saying John Choi is not at Ricky Ortiz's level. Btw, Alioune used to main Sagat in SF4. He might almost be as new to Cammy as V-Ryu is to Makoto.
@24 (Fuma)
What a coincedence! Just yesterday I was looking at some of Luffy's matches, and I saw one where you played against him. That was the first time I've ever heard you.
Man, Luffy really mopped the floor with you, though I can't say his Rose isn't beastly! : D
Wow, Shred is nutso. Having unique rush down tactics does not equate to being a good character.
Makoto worked out quite well in 3S because you couldn't wakeup jab people without being placed at a disadvantage because of the threat of being parried. You had to pick and choose your attacks versus Makoto because if she guessed right and parried a predictable wakeup attempt, you would regret it. In this game, if she tries something on wakeup and gets c.jabbed out of it, she'll end up eating a combo into juggle Ultra. There's no parry, and focus attack only eats one jab. Me may not be as proficient with Makoto as we could be, true, but Capcom failed to adapt her to a different game engine. Dudley and Ibuki seem to be doing fine, but Makoto was a character that relied not on the parry directly, but on the threat of one in order to successfully rush down an opponent. Capcom is going to need to do some major tweaking of her (which I doubt they'd do at this stage, since that would be like admitting that she isn't competitive) for her to go toe-to-toe with better characters.
Also, I await the day when Makoto players quit relying on U1 for catch-up damage when U2 is a far more superior and versatile, but difficult option to use.
Makoto is a clearly disadvantaged character. She isn't total garbage but she has huge obstacles compared to other characters. I think it's funny some are criticizing V-Ryu for using crouch techs. If he hadn't, he would have have genuinely had no way out of Alioune's pressure and been forced to sit there blocking until Alioune wanted to throw him, and Makoto doesn't have a good defense against throws either because of her terrible walkspeed.
The reason it failed was because Cammy is a character that crushes option selects. Just another example of how bad Makoto gets destroyed in this matchup.
I don't think Makoto's that bad. The problem is that she really depends on the player. A good Makoto player has to be a master of SF4. Daigo's one of the best players because he makes good reads. He'll walk up DP you without a FADC because he knows it's going to hit you. Look at Justin's Makoto, it's extremely basic and he doesn't rely on shenanigans. He doesn't even rush down much even though he rushes down with his other characters. He still beats a lot of top players with her. Makoto's not for everyone. You need to be good at certain things that aren't required for other characters. Only a small percentage of SF4 players has what it takes to be good with her. I don't think V-Rru has what it takes. He makes her look beastly with her mixups and combos, but that's all. He doesn't read opponents exceptionally well like a good Makoto player needs to do. If you combine reading people well with his knowledge and skill with Makoto, she would be one of the scariest characters in the game. No one is anywhere near that point yet. Most top players have already picked their mains and aren't going to change.
Makoto, on a basic level, is lacking far too much.
I second Makoto, so please don't cry about shenanigans. Every character is capable of their own form of shenanigans, but Makoto's risk vs. reward is crappy scale compared to most.
This isn't tiers defined, this is failed design defined.
@Jelifish19
I think compareing V-Ryu, to Daigo who uses Ryu is a bit different. Sure Daigo will walk up DP, it's a DP, and will most likely beat anymove they throw out, also it's a gamble as well. DP beating out almost any attack, and throws, versus them blocking. You can't know a move will hit unless you see it. Either way, Makoto doesn't have a DP that will beat out just about any option an opponent has, or to get them off of you. She has no projectile to zone, and no escape move like an arial tats. This is why Makoto is considered bad. Besides if you could read everything, you'd never lose, but hey I havent seen a Dan win any major tournament lol. Street Fighter has skill, gambles, and natural reads. Just some characters have better tools than others. I'm not knocking Daigo, I'm saying that even Daigo would be in a srs hurt if he tried playing with Makoto against some of the higher tiers. Shotos, and most charge characters, or most of the cast with a DP make it hard for Makoto to do much with her offense.
Obviously people don't understand makoto to see why she isn't great, and by the way V-ryu is either the best or one of the best makoto players currently and has proven he has what it takes because he's beaten pros while using her, and even won a tournament using her, (wasn't a big major, so that doesn't mean she's not bad, because she is) the player makes her good and that is an uphill battle in itself. One more thing to add, he has great reads, but since 4 doesn't have parry that stops her from being scary on wake up and during offense.
While she's going to be improved in AE if she doesn't get the right tools she will continue to struggle even if it's not as bad as before. I main her myself and I like to think I am quite good, seeing as I can perform some of the hard things required to execute while using her at a high level.
Makoto needs her light dash punch to be safe and better hitting off her dp.
So much respect to these two players.