Thanks to RickyRocky for pointing this out.
haha.. this is not news, I noticed this a long time. Any gameplay I see of Hakan, he is always losing. I think his damages, oil u speed and range without the oil could have been better.
if a hakan player wins evo. daigo better be buying every hakan player in that ballroom beers!
The only change I'd make to Hakan is this: he should start every round with a long-lasting oil-up already in effect. After all, he does this in his introductory animation! It should last as long as a Heavy Kick Oil Shower.
This would remove the panicky need to oil up at the beginning, which is what allows opponents to keep the pressure on and prevent Hakan from reaching his full power. This single small change would allow Hakan to focus on creating opportunities to oil up rather than trying to steal such opportunities against an opponent who is fully aware of that goal. In other words, he could focus on *staying* oiled up, rather than *getting* oiled up.
I think because of the oil mechanic and the fact that he is not combo-based, his potential seems limited at first to most players. But I think some dedicated players will eventually master him and pull off some big wins.
Hakan is below Dan Tier? Wow, now that's mighty surprising.
And what about Gen? Thanks to Capcom's so called "buffs" the poor old guy kinda became Dan Tier also and there's no mention of him here? I mean he was bearable in vanilla and even though nowhere near the top tiers, people like Yeb or Jibbo still played him in tournaments. And now with SSF4 out you can't even find a good high level fight with him on the internet. Then you look at his incarnation in the alpha series, where he was high/mid tier and you get people like Dark, who still own at pro level.
Seriously, he's such a cool character - why would Capcom sabotage him so. And please don't mention that 'Gen nerfed..no way' movie - so what if you can mantis U2 through projectiles (who throws them at close range anyway?) if the ultra itself sucks so much (nowhere near the coolness of the alpha equivalent). Crane U2 is cool now, when people still don't know you have to block standing, but wait several months and it'll become useless as well. Where are the invincibility frames, if even a simple jab trades with it?! And combos into crane super - ok, that's cool, BUT let's not forget that Gen's meter gain got changed from (one of) the best to THE worst in the whole game.
Please Capcom, have mercy, fix the old guy. The guys at shoryuken forums have already written like a book on it, so that's the best place to go for advice on what to change - they actually test, see and experience how weak he is now.
The least that could be done is fixing his meter gain, adding alpha chains (why did Guy get them back, but Gen still didn't?!) and restoring the mantis jump from vanilla (the new one's uselessness is simply breathtaking) :)
well nobody's gonna notice, if nobody's gonna talk about it. Let's drink to that :)
LOL i had an arguement about this the other day. Freakin weaboo kid was telling me that hakan is good i dont know what im talkin about and to wait for the japanese to use him. Well, theres his answer right there LOL.
hakan wouldnt be so bad if he wasnt so dependant on that freakin oil. Thats really the killer for him, they need to improve the oil shower or just dump, make his oil mode be normal for him and just add a new move in place of it. On paper he looks good but the tester at capcom must be terrible to let hakan ship like that.
Anyone keeping up to date with discoveries about Hakan (especially Ultradavid's youtube channel) will know that he has some very useful glitches and setups. Moniraking has some reset and combo videos where he deals about 80% damage in one string (escapable only by guessing right). Just wait; he'll get better.
Gen and Fei Long are trash, though.
Its funny they said hakan, i actually expected them to say Vega, for some reason (im glad they dident cause hes my main)
I was using Hakan yesterday and I was like Man he sucks! its hard to execute his moves! finally I know Im not crazy.
well all of this might change if capcom decides to that add some changes to hakan in the next update ;p
Hakan is indeed weak but there is one who is the weakest of all. Makoto. In order for her to be efficient, she needs to get up to her opponents face, and even worse yet be able to keep em there. Her walk is horrible. She has a good dash but overall it does not help much. She would not be able to outzone very effectively, much less take control of a fight. Oh and btw, I have NEVER lost against a Makoto yet. If I one day do lose then big upps to the one who can play her.
if there are any good Makotos on here, drop me a msg and we can duke it out. PSN ID: darko_p86
I think the problem with Hakan is that while oiling up improves his properties across the board, he still doesn't have many options or follow-ups. Oiled Hakan is a better Hakan, but still just Hakan. He needs more, to make the most out of oiling up. I'm just talking out of my ass here, but for example:
T.Hawk's can follow an EX Tomahawk Buster up with an EX Condor Dive (the only way to perform the latter). Maybe with oiled-up Hakan, you could EX Oil Rocket and juggle with EX Oil Slide?
Just throwing some ideas out there.
I know a couple of good moves with hakan that make him pretty deadly..mind you I'm only ok with him but IDK if I'd say he sucks. As #31 said rememebr El Furte. And #32 yeah makoto takes practice. I like that character so I've been working with her to make her one of my best(though my Sakura and Dudely will probably always be my best two)
People need to be patient and play Hakan like Gief or Hawk. He's still going to have to work to get in for a throw, and just because he can slide under projectiles doesn't mean you should use him to rush down. In competitive play, Hakan WILL NOT be oiled up for much of the match. As a result of that (and his low damage output), Hakan will be the only grappler that normal characters won't be afraid to rush down. People will figure out how to use him, yes, but his toolset is outclassed by most, if not all of the cast. So even if people learn how to use him effectively, he'll still be low tier because he has to work so hard for negligible damage.
The same goes for Makoto. c.Jab craps all over anything the poor girl can do, except for EX Karakusa. quick dash into Karakusa? You can poke that on reaction. Makoto used to rely on guessing games to outwit an opponent. Now she has to rely on luck (that her opponent doesn't guess correctly). She's on the defensive even in close quarters, and that's where she fails. Maybe she'll tier higher as soon as people figure out that Abare Tosanami is the superior Ultra for the type of game she has to play now (defensive).
It's nice that we've gotten opinions from the "higher beings", but I'd actually like to hear opinions from Mahou Shoujou Zangitan, Itabashi Zangief, Cantona etc. considering that they're more experienced with grappler types.
Hakan, Makoto, Gen all worst than Dan now. Abel, Guile and Sim are looking much more improved. Adon, Guy, Gouken and Deejay are O.K but much better characters in the game with similar styles. Dudley is not god tier like everyone says he's probably mid as I can name close to 10 characters better. Ibuki and Juri probably the new sleepers in the game, have lots of potential to be really good characters. Akuma is probably the best character now followed by Balrog (Boxer) IMO.
useful suggestions for Capcom, maybe next time they wanna "improve" a character they should just listen to what people who actually know how to play the game have to say (like Daigo and crew).
Maybe this way we'll avoid having to struggle for a win with fun and interesting, but weak-as-hell, poorly tested characters like Hakan and Gen, while some online noobs who pick Sagat and spam tigger uppercut whole day declare themselves masters of skillful play.
#7 - Yes. I like that idea a lot. Without changing the character, but it'd definitely change the feeling of playing him.
It's also curious that he has no overhead...but there must be some logic to that decision?
#8 - Gen and Gouken. Gouken's Gouken Flip kick can now be blocked low, which is basically a nerf for his kick, throw and slide options, since blocking low makes throws harder...AND they added recovery frames to his throw, which means not only can you not whiff on purpose to use his Gouken Flip to get in, you also can't EX Gouken Flip throw to get away after being pinned down.
It's like Capcom put someone in charge of tweaks who said, "What's up with these old guys being remotely competitive? They're old! They need to be feeble and useless, someone get on that."
I'll be interested to see what...if anything...changes amongst the characters after this patch. With an arcade version of SSFIV coming, I'll be somewhat hopeful that we'll see another tweak for better parity, but I probably shouldn't hold my breath.
#7 Has a GREAT Suggestion, plus it just makes sense considering the animation, MAKE IT HAPPEN.
@ FistOfLambda
The mad disrespect of Seth shows just what kind of guy you are and that your view just does not matter. Seth does more for the SF community in a day then you and honestly 99% of us here will ever do in a life time. I don't know what crawled up your ass to get mad at one of the coolest guys in the SF world, but i do hope you pull it out someday.
Far as the weakest its all opinion indeed. Hakan has troubles that i think put him there, and those troubles are not going to get fixxed by patching. He needs oil to win and in high level play a good player is never going to let him oil up. Just enjoy Hakan for what he is a goof character to mess around with your friends with. Much like dan.
Gen who knows bout him they took his BnB but who knows what people might think of him in a month, same for Makoto.
I played this guy up and down as one of my mains and I can tell you that yeah Daigo and Mago I agree with them on this one. Not because I'm sucking up because they are who they are either. No cross up is quite bothersome as well. Oil up on medium and beyond takes too long. I can squeeze in a light oil any day even on a good player though even that is very difficult. The problem with that is light oil will have worn off and its not guaranteed that you will get to abuse your opponent. I agree that oil slide needs to go under projectiles because that is a move that Hakan needs to use to punish. It really is imo a reaction punish move but most unsafe. And dig this bit of info that I found out on my own that no one knows. You can dash forward to avoid Hakan's Ultra I. Yes I said it. I need to test most other characters because a friend used Adon and I did the Ultra I as he was focusing in the corner and Hakan missed him. The next time we tested it and you can dash on reaction. If I had the proper equipment to record I would show you. Not some noob talking here. His oil dive needs work. It needs to be faster so he can mind game more. Hp is an ok anti air but it requires on point timing. Mp is a good anti air at certain distances and can defend against ken crossups depending on when they kick. Throw range is garbage and if he is going to have such garbage range then he needs to have faster recovery. some of his pokes also need to hit low so that he can develop an insane tekken-style hi-low mixup game. All the while preserving his uniqueness. I have soo much more to say but I will cut it short for now. I wish I could call Capcom and explain my ideas on how to make him better without making him cheap while preserving his uniqueness as a character and the feel of playing him. He could have been a solid yet balanced character......
This does not affect me, I do well with Hakan and I will never sway away from him.
Hakan in SSF4 is exactly how T.Hawk was in SSF2, nice design on the character but very bad options. I agree oiling up should not take that long and his hitbox.
Wow... people have some seriously weird "fixes" in mind...
Oil Trap? Oil causing Combo's to miss? Starting oiled up?
The only good suggestion has been the idea of giving him an overhead.
Seriously how about some real suggestions...
1> Give him a proper cross up or an overhead. There is no reason why he can't have ONE friggin cross up or ONE overhead. Give him both even, but he should at least have one of them.
2> Let him FADC out of Oil. As of right now, you have to sit their and allow your self to get smacked if you go for big oil. Letting players have the ability to FADC out of oil would alleviate that, without breaking it.
3> Extend the oiled up time by 1 second on all oil commands, and let oils stack each other properly.
What are you talking about ClovrLyf the suggestions seem solid. FADC out of oil is at the expense of meter so how is that breaking the rules, it does'nt have to be an attack? Hakan already breaks a bunch of other rulses, apparently this is how they wanted Hakan to play. He can slide while FA, SLIDE! What other character can do that?
Zangief and T.Hawk have excellent cross ups so why not Hakan. Hakan is not considered heavy because his damage is not on par with Gief or Hawk. A cross up seems fair, ESPECIALLY because he has nooverhead.
And stacking oil seems possible, it does'nt have to be 60 secons but it can be capped, Hakan does'nt have many opportunities to put oil on so if you sit back too much your putting yourself at risk of letting Hakan keep himself oily.
Come on now. You think I wouldn't post on this subject? Hakan's #1 fan ( go see my youtube channel and you understand) here with his 2 cent. Even before the game came out I was like Hakan's going to be top tier because of what Ive seen and what was shown. Now that i've played him first hand, I can say I was wrong. LOL however for the top players from Japan state he's the weakest guy in Super. I cant agree with that. He's not top tier but he's not the weakest either. With this video coming out, I noticed a lot of "side line" cowards speaking up more and flossing with Diego's thongs in their mouth but with that being said. I am still going to main Hakan and still be taking people's "Manhood" (OCH) online. Laters.
@56
Your first suggestion many many people before you posted already said that a million times over. The other two suggestions are great!
@57
Really most of his moves hit low? No no no so you are absolutely wrong. He only has 5 low hitting moves. The rest can be block high. The 5 are F+HK, Oil Slide, D+LK, D+MK, and D+HK. The down moves are obvious lows that almost every character in sf history has. That is not most moves.
They need to fix that glitch that I found out about that dashing straight through Ultra I.
But That is not a guaranteed trap and it is most unsafe. That is nothing more than a gimmick that a lot of ppl aren'g gonna get caught by often and once you miss you WILL 9/10 times get punished. Plus his oil dive starts up kinda slow to catch a lot of ppl off guard as they jump unless you do it ahead of time which most ppl aren't gonna do because of what I mentioned about being punished hard for missing. slide is a good way to get out of a lot of situations but the thing is that just resets the position of both players and puts you further away which you kinda don't against say projectile users. Even at max throw range if you even think of doing an Ultra I they can still dash out and the throws will whiff unless you do a normal throw which still isn't guaranteed or safe. The knockdown into throw isn't always going to work and if you go for it all the time its not going to get you that far due to the fact that almost all your options can be countered and punished very easily and if they jump back they hit you out of oil dive VERY easy. Damage wise Hakan isn't weak but his options are what make him weak.
Im pretty will get alot better overtime cuz people are learning with him, but i do think he needs a few things.
1. He honestly should start with a fierce oil shower at the beginning of the match, that way it will trouble to set oil throughtout the match if u can of course maintain control.
2. They need to up the speed ever so slightly in all of his oil showers, they last just a little to long imo.
3. He needs a crossup, cuz like every grappler has one lol.
4. I also believe an ambiguous overhead would help hakan as well just for pure mixup.
5. Make hakans antiair command grab have a lot more priority to hit people in the air.
After all of that, or at least some of that he would be boosted signifigantly.
Also to the people who are saying fei long sucks, i just lol, you should have seen ect2 then would understand, and to the people are saying gen sucks, you have no clue, he has just changed drastically from an offensive character to how he was played in alpha, a good defensehive character with good normals, even tho i do think that they shouldnt have removed mk to hands as it was a big blow to the people who learned it...
@Clovr4Lyf
1> Nothing in the rules say that FADC HAS to be attack related. FADC is simply a cancel, and for the most part are used to make unsafe stuff, safe. His safest oil shower is the short version, but the duration is too short to be a real threat.
I don't see why Hakan shouldn't be able to do RH Oil FADC to make it safe but still retain that 12-15 seconds worth of oil. It would allow him to stay constantly oiled up to keep an offensive pressure, or give him a safe way to oil up in more defensive situations.
2> Hawk and Zangief have solid cross up options. It's how they can keep the pressure, create ambiguous set ups, and threaten with throws. Why can heavy grapplers like Hawk and Zangief have cross up options, while Hakan doesn't? If Hakan had a proper cross up option then he would create situations where the opponent would have to guess.
3> Developers can make it so oils only stack up twice, but double stacked oils would be a significant boost to him. If he could stack oils, he wouldn't need a handicap that like starting him oiled up in the start of the round. Combine oil stacking with FADC oil, then you can have a very dangerous Hakan that can keep constantly oiled provided the player has good meter management.
Also, to quickly note. I don't think Hakan totally sucks, I think he has some major weaknesses, but when oiled he's much better. I consider Makoto be a lot worst than Hakan in my opinion.
@Clovr4Lyf
1> Who cares if it's an attack or not? It's a cancel it doesn't matter what it is, the whole reason behind it is to cancel the recovery of something to negate the negative aspect of certain moves.
The short version of the oil shower doesn't have a particularly long duration, which means players can be defensive and only have to worry about Hakan for that short amount of time before they can start punishing him.
The fact is that the roundhouse version gives him twice as much time to work with the oil, and it turn it gives Hakan twice the amount of chance of catching his opponent. However the roundhouse version is near useless due to a very long start up and recovery.
FADC out of oil gives him that utility to apply heavy oil, and start creating opportunities for offense, and not always having to apply oil after a KD.
2> Are you new to SF? Because cross ups on oki situations with grapplers have always been present in SF games. Hakan is a grappler, but he doesn't have ANY tools where you seriously have to guess. A proper cross up would allow him to have those opportunities, just like Hawk and Zangief.
3> Short Oil = roughly 6 sec, you get a non-tech KD in 2 sec, Roundhouse Oil xx FADC = 12 sec + 4 sec remaining. You now have a solid 16 seconds of oil off a knockdown.
What rules? There are no written rules for what can qualify for FADC. An FADC is just cancel into a FA, that's all it is. A cancel is a cancel, there isn't anything special about FADC.
And since were on the subject of "rules" why can Hakan break them all while he's oiled? Why can he move around during FA when oiled? Why do the properties of his move change so dramatically when oiled? I find it funny that you continue to question me, when you have conveniently dodged these questions.
Your trying to make is sound like Hakan has a wide variety of mixups, setups, and traps. The facts are that because he lacks a decent cross up or an overhead, his mixup game is limited since there is less for opponents to guess. The second fact is that his traps and setups aren't guaranteed since he lacks options to force opponents into your offense.
Hakan is seriously lacking real proper strategy, and so far has been going off gimmicks and tricks, but those things only last so long before everyone knows them.
So, don't get so worked up dude. There just personal suggestions, it's not like I work for Capcom or anything. But don't try to insult my intelligence just because we disagree and that you "beat the pros" with your godlike Hakan.
Wait. When did J wong say Rufus's U2 sucks?? If that is true then why is he using it in tourneys? Make you think doesnt it? Even the pros change there minds. I play Antwan Ortiz all the time. he's so on the fence with Hakan. One minute he sucks, the next he's good. However after showing him Hakan's tricks. Antwa is like, "Hakan is good. Not great but he's good." All in all. It's going to take some more work from Hakan players to prove people wrong. ALSO I wanna see what Itabashi says about Hakan. I wanna know what the best Grappler player in the world have to say about Hakan instead of notorious Shoto users spouting off their opinion.
It's pretty obvious Hakan is the weakest. He needs three or four things to begin to exist :
1) oil shower in each version needs to be faster.
2) its slide needs to go completely below fireballs (except Juri's low fireball)
3) its anti-air command grab needs to have much more priority
4)he needs to be as tough or even more than Zangief and T. Hawk.