ShackNews is the latest website to get some face time with Capcom's Seth Killian and ask him a round of Super Street Fighter 4 related questions.ShackNews: Did Capcom and the developers pay attention to character tier-lists when developing Super Street Fighter 4?
Seth Killian: They are very aware of those lists. Let me just say, for anyone that doesn't know this, the people at Capcom QA are killer. People are like, "Capcom QA didn't even know about this." Capcom QA knows about almost everything. Not absolutely everything because a million great players playing together will discover things that QA didn't know about. But the QA guys are no joke.
This guy Raoh, who is a Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike player, made a name for himself on the competitive circuit and did very well in Japan. He did very well in EVO here in America. He used to work at Capcom QA and wasn't even in the top 20 players on the QA team.
The QA guys don't enter tournaments so that's why they don't have reputations on the street, but they are unbelievably good at the game. If there was a tournament of all of Capcom QA against players around the world - I don't know how many top players would survive to the finals against the QA guys. It would be a bloodbath.
These guys are extremely good. They are very smart, strong players. So we know Sagat is stronger than a lot of the other characters. There's always going to be winners and losers in any balance chart. Nobody likes to hear that, but that's part of what makes Street Fighter interesting.
Difference in character strength is part of the nature of a SF game. It's something we don't try to avoid. Ultimately, in the current ranking charts, there are a few mismatches, but for the most part I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any other competitive fighting game with a closer balance across all the characters.
Thanks to Yes4me for this.
Posted by Monicker on March 15, 2010 at 7:42 p.m. #1
Maybe the QA guys could record a tournament and show the rest of the world just how good they really are?
It would be interesting to say the least.
Posted by Mash on March 15, 2010 at 7:48 p.m. #2
great
Posted by Lazy on March 15, 2010 at 7:48 p.m. #3
I wish someone would cover the apparent rumors of E. Honda being god tier in SSF4.
Posted by RedEther on March 15, 2010 at 7:49 p.m. #4
Play hard, take risks, train up, and you'll be rewarded with low tier, mid tier, and upper tier wins. At the end of the day like I to say its whoever plays the best in that match will win every time no matter what character you have if you lose think about how you lost and go back to the lab and train.
Posted by RedEther on March 15, 2010 at 7:50 p.m. #5
Play hard, take risks, train up, and you'll be rewarded with low tier, mid tier, and upper tier wins. At the end of the day I like to say its whoever plays the best in that match will win every time no matter what character you have if you lose think about how you lost and go back to the lab and train.
Posted by FraggleRock on March 15, 2010 at 7:51 p.m. #6
I would love to see these QA players have an invite tournament where they play all the best players from around the world. Just to show how good they really are. I have a hard time believing that they could be so much better than the rest of the world, if anything maybe they're like Mago, J. Wong and Daigo's level. But I can't see them being that much more superior
Posted by Psycho on March 15, 2010 at 7:52 p.m. #7
Nobody likes to hear that, but that's part of what makes Street Fighter interesting.
Lol same argument over and over
Posted by kraken on March 15, 2010 at 7:54 p.m. #8
Well said RedEther, one of the the most true comments I've seen posted here.
Posted by recovery on March 15, 2010 at 8:03 p.m. #9
this game needs some serious air-recovery
one super stock per recovery
Posted by chickenwings on March 15, 2010 at 8:06 p.m. #10
So those qna guys knew about the bs and left it in the game? Honestly LOL. I mean seriously, it sounds better if capcom said "hey we didnt know we screwed up we will fix it", but now there saying that they knew. So what excuss do they have for leaveing 90% of the cast lacking somethin with 2 characters that have freakin everything. Seth isnt makeing them look good.
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 8:07 p.m. #11
.....I think Seth is lying...i'm sorry but Seth is on the road so much I doubt he's seen the QA guys that much. and as the first person who posted said if they're godly lets see some vids
Posted by Gutter_Trash on March 15, 2010 at 8:09 p.m. #12
Ryu is not even that broken. He's just good but, not overly good like Sagat. I don't mind how Ryu is now but, Sagat definitely is way too unbalanced. Ryu IMO is one of the weakest S or A Tier characters out there.
Posted by chickenwings on March 15, 2010 at 8:12 p.m. #13
@redether
nobody said it was impossible to win with low tiers, but the fact is i have to put in double or triple the work to win against someone useing the "strong" characters. Thats not right anyway u look at it. Its like boxing with a guy that has 4 foot long arms, yea u can get in and throw some hands on him but its gonna be an uphill battle. ANd lets face it, when u pick a character like ryu or sagat the match is urs to lose and even so all u need to do is fadc ultra.
Posted by juxtapose on March 15, 2010 at 8:12 p.m. #14
Ugh... Killian always dances around the questions and never actually answers anything. I've had enough of these lame interviews, let's just release the game already.
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 8:13 p.m. #15
Chicken Wings it's QA(Quality Assurance)
but yeah Seth pretty much said "oh well we knew Sagat was god tier but didn't balance" but was saying before the release of SF4 "Well this is the most balanced SF" when it's not true since Ryu,Rufus,Balrog and Sagat are the "top tier" characters that you see a lot in tournaments kinda like SF3 where Yun,Chun,Ken and Dudley dominated.
Posted by MrTanooki on March 15, 2010 at 8:15 p.m. #16
#10 has the idea
Why spend weeks on end practicing characters like Fuerte, Viper, and Gen when you can just pick up characters like Ryu Rufus and Balrog and just focus on winning? With Fuerte Viper and Gen you have two opponents; the person you're playing against and the game itself.
Posted by roarmonster on March 15, 2010 at 8:33 p.m. #17
why are there so many scrubs on this websight.....
just soooo many of them, they flood this place. some reasonable voices but my god man the stupid shlt i read here
Posted by roarmonster on March 15, 2010 at 8:37 p.m. #18
@fist of lambda.
ur such a arrogant little dipshlt. first of all i believe that the QA guys must be good. why is because at the higher levels sagat is still great, but not nearly as all powerful as he seems at low and mid tier. when sf4 first came out i thought he was way broken but as i got better and better he got worse and worse. People like you that just go on line and bitch about the game are just mad because you dont know how to play the game right. Sagats overpoweredness would make some sense if these guys were as good as he was saying, because at there level he isnt nearly as overpowered as angry little scrubs like you make him out to be
Posted by Blanks on March 15, 2010 at 8:40 p.m. #19
I'm tired of reading his interviews too. It's obvious that he and the designers know the game is unbalanced, but try to make it somehow seem like it's good for the game.
It's not.
It just leads to shotos flooding online matches. Which would be very easy to argue is bad for the game and its players. I'll still get SSF4, but this is bull.
Posted by roarmonster on March 15, 2010 at 8:44 p.m. #20
@blanks
see your right but what there trying to do is provide stepping stones for people. Sadly the characters that are easy to use to start of with are still great later on, i think they should nerf ryu more so that begginers can use him but it wont be necesarily who they want to stick with once they get a little better. As for the bad balance bieng good this is somewhat true, but again ryu is definetly not the juggernaut a lot of people make him out to be. He has a lot of answers and is good overall, but it usually comes down to who the better player is. I used to beat ryus, begginer and pretty decent ones, all the time with dhalsim and abel.
Posted by eeeealmo on March 15, 2010 at 8:45 p.m. #21
man you people will complain about anything. at least wait for the god damn game to come out before you start whining like bitches.
Posted by Shantotto on March 15, 2010 at 9 p.m. #22
Like I said before, there will never be a completely 100% balanced game ever. I don't know if people will ever know that... SF IV isn't as bad as other games out there. I took about 5 mins to look at the tier list of 3rd Strike, SF4 and HD Remix(from this website) and average out the best character and the worst character's matchups and compare.
SF 3rd strike
Chun Li - 6.8333
Sean - 2.9444
~3.8889 difference
SF 4
Sagat - 6.1667
Dan - 3.8750
~2.2917 difference
SF2HD
Balrog - 5.6000
Zangief - 3.9333
~1.6667 difference
SF4 is more balanced than 3S but HD remix is actually more balanced than both (If you are complaining about Sagat being over powered go look at Chun Li in 3rd strike lol).
But remember, that's all number data based on matchups if players are the same skill blah blah. Take this as however you want i really don't care. just thought I'd point it out
Posted by DJay2411 on March 15, 2010 at 9 p.m. #23
@Roarmonster well said my friend, well said. The whole thing about Sagat is true, with people moaning. These are the people that just jump constantly and make it easy for a Sagat player to use his juggles etc...the same people that moan when they jump in aimlessly to a Ryu AA Jab DP into Ultra. Sure you need tactics to beat these characters and for me that comes down to the individual to play smart and not give these characters the easy way out. We all know what these characters can do, and the best players know what their character can do and they enforce it on the opponent. I'm not fussed about fighting Ryu and Sagat anymore, I'm more scared of Honda and Dictator...and Elf lol
Posted by NJCU on March 15, 2010 at 9:05 p.m. #24
Those Q and A guys are like the invisible boy: he is only invisible when nobody is watching. Im a beast my self....i just dont enter tournaments...thats why I dont have a reputation on the streets. But believe me it would be bloddbath!!!
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 9:10 p.m. #25
QA(QUALITY ASSURANCE)
not Q&A(Question an answer)
Know what QA stands for before using the words there's no & or and or n' in there it's QUALITY ASSURANCE not QUALITY AND ASSURANCE
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 9:11 p.m. #26
@31
alot since he knows how to do alot of the moves with little error while playing cross handed
Posted by CAKE on March 15, 2010 at 9:19 p.m. #27
are the alternate costumes from the original street fighter 4 gonna be included in super street fighter 4
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 9:21 p.m. #28
doesn't matter about match up numbers, or match up it's about facts and the fact it is more balanced then SF4
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 9:21 p.m. #29
yes cake they are going to be
Posted by Speedwagon on March 15, 2010 at 9:26 p.m. #30
WAH WAH MY FAVORITE CHARACTER ISNT AS STRONG AS SOME OTHER CHARACTER
That's all we hear here.
Maybe you guys want Vanilla Fighter 4: Everyone's the same and it's boring Turbo to get released.
Grow up, stop blaming anything other than yourself, and get better. Easy as that.
Posted by NJCU on March 15, 2010 at 9:27 p.m. #31
Wow Ein!!! I wasnt aware typos were prohibited here!!!m sorry is not Ein is Ex-Ein I suppose you would prefer I know what Ex- stand for before I post. And is not "alot" is "a lot" know how to spell before using the words Neophyte!!! Pointless
Posted by Bookerjj on March 15, 2010 at 9:30 p.m. #32
@ Shantotto
Lets be real man, if you are going to judge the game balance judge the whole game, put Akuma on the list on HDR, and show the real Balance, the man is banned for a reason and David Sirlin, rebalanced this game knowing how Akuma was.
Posted by Sakura on March 15, 2010 at 9:31 p.m. #33
Okay...Why the f*ck do people keep bringing up other games to justify SFIV?
Is The game the most balanced street fighter game to date? If so, Cool Beans!
Does that mean the game should stop improving? Hell No...
it's like saying, "Hey! No one else is doing any better...why should I?"
imagine if every game developer thought this way...
Posted by PhinnyCupcakes on March 15, 2010 at 9:35 p.m. #34
so #38, who do you play?
Posted by j0e on March 15, 2010 at 9:36 p.m. #35
Apparently nobody tested Claw in QA :[
Posted by Nelaelu on March 15, 2010 at 9:37 p.m. #36
@recovery #11
Recovery like in Alpha3? I always thought that it looked dumb as hell! Alpha3 had some good things(like number of characters), but overall it was the worst one from Alphas (even though i still enjoyed it). It contained good ideas, but at the same time had too many awkward looking things (like some air grabs, rolls, not to mention several air recovers in a row or after a super!). Because of that the game suffered in clarity and visuallity... it was an attempt to get versitality at any cost. Sorry...
Posted by THawk on March 15, 2010 at 9:37 p.m. #37
HDR is not more balanced than SF4.. lol
Most of you are scrubs and have no clue what you're talking about. gtfo
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 9:38 p.m. #38
I see no reason to space "a" from "lot" since I'm on the internet when not applying for a job or typing an e-mail to my boss or teacher or some one I just want to show my respect. I'm not sure why you take an internet forum this seriously. however the fact beside me using "alot" you must admit I make a good point. and it's "it is" or "it's" not "and is not 'alot' is 'a lot' ". Remember your spelling before you try to correct some one there spelling
Posted by Ex_Ein on March 15, 2010 at 9:46 p.m. #39
Anyway it's not as if I misspelled, the word I simply fused two words together while it's incorrect written English my intent is still understandable intent and is not like me fusing Hadouken and spam it's a common word "a" and a common word "lot"
Posted by Nelaelu on March 15, 2010 at 9:47 p.m. #40
@recovery #11
Your idea isn't bad, but i think managing juggles well (and fair) is a better solution...
I think no juggles (or almost no juggles) like in many old sf is far better that overjuggling like in Alpha3
Posted by Adjacent on March 15, 2010 at 9:53 p.m. #41
Seth Killian is good at his job.
Posted by CL93 on March 15, 2010 at 10:01 p.m. #42
Man i would love to see these guys take Daigo on.
Posted by CL93 on March 15, 2010 at 10:01 p.m. #43
i still wanna know why the hell is seth SO WEAK? the first time i got the game, i couldnt beat the guy for weeks! and when you unlock him and get to use him, his attacks take away low damage and his STAMINA is horrible! (750). Come on wtf like 2 spinning piledrivers from zangief and he's already dead!
And the old school favorite Guile still hasnt gotten the benefits he deserves; they shouldve at least made the sonic hurricane larger, or a move that surrounds him and that hits from the front and back just like in MvC2.
Posted by GrimmjawJin on March 15, 2010 at 10:08 p.m. #44
I love how everytime someone asks about balance in SSf4 seth keeps beating around the fu(king bush. He's basically saying that bad matchups make the game more interesting. What a bunch of bull$hit. Shotos will flood online..... again.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 15, 2010 at 10:09 p.m. #45
RedEther #6
The fact that I win tournaments in g1 with Danny and beat 60k Sagats doesn't prove that skill is everything...
People have similar limitations. The closer players get to those limitations the more important it is what characters they use...
Posted by MrTanooki on March 15, 2010 at 10:13 p.m. #46
The fact that you consider online play as a testament of your skill nulls your opinion.
Posted by Realpolitik on March 15, 2010 at 10:20 p.m. #47
Shantotto makes a convincing argument. Good job on the numbers.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 15, 2010 at 10:22 p.m. #48
@Clovr4Lyf #10
Putting Ryu in the same box as Sagat defies your understanding of SF4 (and ability to read tier lists). Only Ryu's very easy (still weak!!) to hit ultra saves his butt from being an average character in SF4...
Posted by TGSK on March 15, 2010 at 10:26 p.m. #49
Ryu wouldn't be top tier if it wasn't for Daigo. Not kidding.
Posted by OomackattackoO on March 15, 2010 at 10:38 p.m. #50
@ #49
soo true...
Posted by Bookerjj on March 15, 2010 at 10:49 p.m. #51
@ Sakura #41
The reason why they compare is to show how they did improve. That's how they justify SF4, to show u how the game evolved in balance, SSF4 is a fan service game. This version will be more balance than the current.
So your example comment "Hey! No one else is doing any better...why should I?" doesn't even fit your argument. That's why he and others compare to show that they ARE improving.
Posted by chickenwings on March 15, 2010 at 10:51 p.m. #52
@56 LOL, ryu is diet sagat, please stop bsing urself. Hes faster, easier to combo with and has a better dp then sagat. And on top of that its brain dead easy to use him. The only match ups u might have to learn are sagat balrog and akuma, for everyone else basic common sense will do just fine. Spam low forward and space fireballs. Dont act like diago affects his placement, if that was true characters like seth sim and c viper would be higher. Ill repeat what i always say when people defend ryu, compare him head to head with the other shotos and explain to me why everything ryu has is the best and easiest to use.
Posted by kara on March 15, 2010 at 11:20 p.m. #53
that's true community right there man
the entire QA team should come out wearing super hero outfits and masks and take on all the world champs in a proper tourney
i'd pay good money to be there
Posted by Nelaelu on March 15, 2010 at 11:23 p.m. #54
@MrTanooki #54
First of all, that wasn't the point of my comment. Second of all, you're not objective if you think that online players are neccesairly worse than tournament players (Remember Mago playing 4 online matches and loosing 2 of them, lol!). Not everyone lives in California and/or has time to play tournaments...
Third, I didn't say those were great Sagat players, did I? Cause against great Sagat players you will loose with Dan no matter what (unless you're a super genius... but did you see any Dans winning major tournaments? Or even Guiles or Vegas?)
And btw I did well in the US National SF tournament, so I have some idea how the tournament play looks like. I would be glad to play more tournaments, but there aren't that many in Illinois... (Sorry, I can't just fly to California or Vegas whenever I wish). Also, I'm not good enough to play with the very best...
Finally, if you want to argue, write more than 1 sentence, please...
Posted by Guile on March 15, 2010 at 11:37 p.m. #55
U can argue that 6-4 matchups are "interesting". There are two sides to that argument and its quite debatable.
But most of us can agree 7-3 matchups are jacked up. the fact that there are fewer in this game dont mean they are a GOOD thing and they should let em stay.
and why put up with it when they can correct it. Why leave teh status quo? Thing is they are having an update relase people, and they have to justify why their customers should spend another 40 dollars. Dont forget thats seth's job
Now they can either tell us how they address these perfectly correctable problems that we're concerned about or they can BS and tell us what we think is a problem is not a problem. Even after we've played for 100s of hours and noticed something really wrong - ya there wasnt something wrong it was all in our head
is that telling us: ya we're working on making this game better for u? or is that just telling us we're stupid?
Posted by kara on March 15, 2010 at 11:39 p.m. #56
i remember Raoh's name, but was he really that good?
Posted by TheOneandOnlyone on March 15, 2010 at 11:40 p.m. #57
Hey Nelaelu you live any where near Monmouth IL Id play you off line if you do.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 12:05 a.m. #58
chickenwings #60
1. Look at tier lists. Sagat waaaay ahead of everybody. Ryu about the same as many other high tiers... Most of his match ups even.
2. Considering damage dealing Ryu is one of the weakest characters in the game!! Look at his ultra as an example(398 at full meter, while Sagats 585!) We had damage ranking here some time ago, so find it for more examples!! 3. Sagat only walks slow but his specials aren't slow.
4. Ryu is easiy to combo - I said that already!! Most of his combos are weak though, got that??
5. He's easy to use, but so is Sagat, where's the argument?? There are many easy characters to use...
6. Why do you even mention Daigo. Exceptional players don't make particular characters better tiers
7. Ken isn't much worse then Ryu... his main problem is his terrible ultra. If you want more about it I can write a nice and big paragraph for u... as long as you give me some good arguments first
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 12:16 a.m. #59
TheOneandOnlyone #65
I live in Chicago (southern suburbs). How far is Chicago from your place? I'd love to hang out with some other SF players! As long as you love playing/talking about SF and are over 18 (I hate arguing with kids)it would be awesome. I hope you're at least decent at the game too... (who are your mains in SF4?)
Posted by spanish_ninja on March 16, 2010 at 12:35 a.m. #60
Balance???.....its all about skills. i love wipping the smile off of ryu, sagat, and ken users when i give them my BLOODY HIGH CLAW when they fire ball spam or whiff an uppercut. (Vega laughs at them) *hahahahaha*
Posted by FearTheBadgers on March 16, 2010 at 12:49 a.m. #61
@46
>there spelling
ಠ_ಠ
Posted by sweatypalm on March 16, 2010 at 12:51 a.m. #62
Wow same old bull eventhubs thread.
Requiring a log in didn't stop that at all...
Sigh.
People bring up other games when talking about sagat because sagat is the weakest best character in street fighter history. If you look at the tiers most of his matchups are 6 That is only a 1 game advantage, He has a few 7's but they are against characters like guile and dan who are bad in general. Against akuma the matchup is even.
Compare this to akuma of SSF2T HD Remix. Or chun li of SF3 third strike.. You get my meaning.
Akuma has a matchup where he wins 9 out of 10 games..... Chun li has SIX matchups where she wins 8 out of 10 games......
Face it: You guys complain more then oldschool players because you are whiny bitches not because you played a worse game than them.
Posted by sweatypalm on March 16, 2010 at 1:04 a.m. #63
In addition: Seth Vs zangief is more stacked in seth's favor THAN ANY SAGAT MATCHUP.
So why do i never hear people complaining about that?
SF4 IS the most balanced fighter in street fighter history. It's just that you won't see the balance if you keep playing against rufus ryu akuma sagat balrog, The balance is in the low and mid tier ranges where 20 of 25 characters reside. You want balance? Put a soft cap on those 5 characters UNLESS they go up against each other.
But you guys don't want that because that would mean that you can no longer bitch.
Posted by ScytheWP on March 16, 2010 at 1:20 a.m. #64
http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/deve...
Someone translate...It's Hakan stuff
Posted by CASEY25 on March 16, 2010 at 1:23 a.m. #65
If i were Seth i'd be pretty tired of all the whiners, but i guess with so many complaining people it means a lot of people care about SF.
tldr at next post (lol)
What a lot of people need to realize is that the audience for SSF4 is more than just the top tournament players. There's advanced, intermediate, and beginner players, roughly, as well. A fighting game with 30 copies of the same character doesn't look very fun for people just getting into the game. Diversity is more exciting and entertaining, and different/unique playstyles can make the game a lot more fun than a game with stale gameplay. If you want a perfectly balanced game, go play HD remix where the only selectable character is akuma and no one else. Im sure you'd still find a way to complain.
You also have to take into account that SF4's returning characters were heavily based on their SF2 counterparts, since SF2 had the broadest appeal and someone who hasn't played a game since then will be familiar with the character's moves. This in a way might sacrifice some balance so as not to dissuade a large percentage of Capcom's market for their game.
Mad that some characters are easier than others? I'm all for ryu and ken being more accessible, because this allows people to pick up the game, have some fun, and learn a thing or two without having to make a huge commitment to master everything. Also, if the player has no character that appeals to them, they're gonna bring the game back to gamestop. They need the ryus, kens, and chun lis because players can easily attach to those characters.
Posted by CASEY25 on March 16, 2010 at 1:23 a.m. #66
I play guile, bison, and abel. 3 very different characters with different playstyles. I like the variety, and i like how at my level (casual, g1, online only) i can succeed with those characters using different strategies, tactics, etc. There's always room for improvement and no matter what, if you lose, it's ultimately your fault. It's never impossible to beat Sagat with Dan.
I'm going to GUESS, if Capcom's and our speculation is correct, that Adon is going to be "lower tier". Capcom has said he's a "beginner" level character. He's easy for casual players to pick up, understand, and succeed at their level. I'm GUESSING he won't see much tournament play. If you want to be the most successful at tournament level without becoming the Unprecedented God of Street Fighter, other characters might be more suitable.
ok ok tldr:
1. SF4 is damn well balanced overall, all things considered
2. SF NEEDS accessible and appealing characters to draw people in. It's not selling out, its good sense.
3. SF has variety. It makes the game exciting and worth playing. Few cases like that one Honda vs Honda mirror match. You know which one i mean.
4. Having characters who do better/worse at different skill levels is OK. It's like any sport; if you want to win at kickball no matter what, don't pick the midget, pick the professional soccer player. If you want to be the best, don't pick dan. Unless you want to be the best dan in the world.
Contrary to what you're probably thinking, I'm all for character balancing, and a lot of complaints and arguments are quite valid. Just don't forget that you were a "scrub" once, and imagine; if the characters weren't like they were, would you even care about Street Fighter?
Hey, if you're so fed up, you could go play Virtua Fighter. I hear it's the best fighting game (that nobody plays).
Posted by acku on March 16, 2010 at 1:27 a.m. #67
I hope Seth or Capcom altogether doesnt read these kind of comments or they would just give up altogether. What a bunch of whiny kids most of you are. It's really sad.
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 16, 2010 at 1:40 a.m. #68
#66 is an idiot who forgot we can't post anonymous anymore. Goodjob there genius.
Posted by chickenwings on March 16, 2010 at 1:44 a.m. #69
@66
dude, it does basicly 400 dmg, now add to that the move u used to combo into it and its average dmg, corner setups give u around 500 dmg. ANd dude sagat believe it or not is actually harder to use since u need to get the ranges on his swing kick, kara knee/uppers/fireballs and range on tks and then theres the fact that hes slower bigger character so he can be harder to handle, it isnt much harder but it takes more then just knowing the range of low forward which is so dam fast it really doesnt matter. As for ken, look at the frame data, everything ryu does is better, theres no freakin reason for that. Ken is a good character, but he looks bad when u compare him to ryu since ryu has freakin everything. Ryu is supposed to be an all around character but most of the time his move is either the best or very close to it. But capcom is toneing him down, so its not just my opinion, capcom feels the same way.
Posted by Sol_Badguy on March 16, 2010 at 1:46 a.m. #70
@acku
Seth probably does read these comments, but he knows better than to listen to all these whiny kids who didn't play any fighting games before SF4. He'd be better off asking a drunken hobo on a park bench for feedback. I bet he sits in his chair and laughs at all the morons posting their worthless opinions, but because of his position at Capcom he will never really post what he thinks of them.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 2:20 a.m. #71
CASEY25 #73
Great comments! Long, but definitely worth reading!!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 2:26 a.m. #72
@sweatypalm #70
"The balance is in the low and mid tier ranges where 20 of 25 characters reside"
Well said! Even if you only take away Sagat and Dan you get very good balance. Look at all those high tiers - they all score almost the same (around 130). The bottom is little bit more spread out... but still not bad at all!!
Posted by RA_MO on March 16, 2010 at 2:31 a.m. #73
I am just excited that there will be a new Street Fighter game coming out. I may not have been anywhere near the best on IV, but I will continue to practice and maybe one day get noticed... nerfs and all. It seems that no matter how much a majority will complain over changes, they, in time.. get over it and continue to use who they love. It may be just me but I have read many comments on this site about how bad Guile is getting and things to that variation... And yet, there are still Guile users lol. So no matter how much a character gets toned down, you love them too much to just let them go. And even if you do let them go.. Time goes on and another person will take your place as that character's user. I have seen a great many matches won by the top characters, and then the not so top characters..
I think if you want your victory bad enough, you will do what it takes to make it happen.. Sure you may have to work your butt off for it but I think once you get it, you earn that much more respect not to mention... You will feel that much better about your win. And for those who believe their character is too low on a tier listing,... Here is your chance to prove it wrong and get that character out there.. Who knows.. Maybe with enough hard work and patience, We will all be seeing some Guiles, Gens, Vega, Dans, etc as top tier or better yet.. God tier.
I just hope that regardless of all the changes being done.. the nerfing and new properties of moves... When it officially is released, we can just come together and enjoy the game... Win or lose.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 2:38 a.m. #74
MadnessFamilyguile #76
Give me some arguments first and show that you can write more than one sentence... than we can talk like normal people. Calling someone an idiot without any arguments only makes you sound like one...
Posted by ScytheWP on March 16, 2010 at 2:52 a.m. #75
@ 66
Sagat is getting more nerfs than Ryu...
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 3:09 a.m. #76
chickenwings #77
I see my comment made you more careful about your arguments (good job!):
1. lp shoryu - ultra. damage reduced, below 400 (with full ultra)
jump mp - ultra. still below 400
ex hadou - ultra. only corner, otherwise fadc 3ex lost, damage still about 400 (even with crouching mk)
shoryuken fadc ultra. 476 dmg
ex tatsu - strong, but only corner
only f HP-srk-fadc-ultra good damage, anywhere on the screen
(not all listed, but you should see the big picture)
Overall, many set ups, but most of them really weak!!
Super (Shinku Hadoken) very useful, but only 300dmg - as much as Sagats 2ex tiger shots (not followed by another regular one lol!)
Check Ryu's normals, specials and ex moves - same thing!!
True, he's got great frame data, safer specials etc. It make's him a very good character, but not better than rog, ruf or akuma and not much better than bunch of other charactes...
Posted by bananainsaneface on March 16, 2010 at 3:15 a.m. #77
The guy he was talking about Raoh is the same jap player that screamed F*ck you, Daigo at evo. And then went on to lose to Justin Wong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XSoju...
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 3:24 a.m. #78
@chickenwings #77
Sagat's got moves for any range, great zoning, deals huge damage with virtually everything, good set ups, high stamina, can crouch lk into powerful combos. His size or slower movement are nothing comparing to all that!
I'm not crying over his overpowered state, but just trying to show u how him and Ryu and in a completly different league. 21 Sagats among 50 best players in Japan, have you read about that? Only 4 Ryus, 3 Kens!!, 7 Akumas!!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 3:29 a.m. #79
RA_MO #81
Oh what a sweet and peaceful comment!! Seriously, I would love to hang out - eat pizza, drink some coke and play STREET FIGHTER till down!! Cheers!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 3:36 a.m. #80
ScytheWP #83
That sounds absolutely right. Nerfs for Ryu (more exactly set ups and srk) might be a good idea too... maybe at least we won't have to fight thousands of them online!!
Posted by ScytheWP on March 16, 2010 at 3:46 a.m. #81
@ 1 and 13
Yea...let's see some videos.
Seth has been saying a lot of stuff, but he doesn't really back anything up...
Posted by RA_MO on March 16, 2010 at 3:53 a.m. #82
Nelaelu #87
Thank you. Who knows.. Maybe one day I will get a chance to meet you as well as others from this site at a tournament or just anywhere random and play a few games here and there.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 4:10 a.m. #83
RA_MO #90
If we lived in the same city that wouldn't be a problem... I'm from Chicago though and it's very unlikely that you live closer than 1000 miles away...lol! Good luck and have fun!!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 4:12 a.m. #84
RA_MO #90
Also... it would be better if same people from here didn't meet each other... or we would have Street Fighter live!!
Posted by Pusha_T on March 16, 2010 at 4:54 a.m. #85
@77 - exactly, if Seth killian really wanted to let a lot of people on here how he really feels he would lose his job. He probably wouldn't mind whacking a couple o pple on here with a baseball bat.
Posted by Pusha_T on March 16, 2010 at 5:02 a.m. #86
lololol . You guys need to see this.
http://iplaywinner.com/news/2010/3/15...
The epitome of scrubbery lol.
Posted by zUkUu on March 16, 2010 at 5:18 a.m. #87
why not link the whole interview?
There are more interesting questions.
For Super Street Fighter IV, a lot of characters that people thought would get buffs didn't get them. What was the strategy for rebalancing the game?
Why does Guile still suck?
Have there been any netcode improvements to Super?
Moving past Super, do you know what your next project is at Capcom?
etc
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x...
Posted by draw2 on March 16, 2010 at 5:37 a.m. #88
@ #94
That ish is hilarious!!!
I hate that stupid waiting game...
What cracks me up is how they both open up with tiger knee's...and own each other!!!
Posted by Pmagic on March 16, 2010 at 6:07 a.m. #89
street fihghter is just like AMERICA. its not MEANT to be fair. you have to be SKILLED to be successful in either one, whether you start from the top(tier) or the bottom(tier).
"its all about skill baby"
Posted by b4ym4n on March 16, 2010 at 6:44 a.m. #90
Finally! Killian actually admits that Guile still sucks. What a douche. He had been dancing around that question for a month and a half. I'm not surprised. All of this could have been dissolved if Guile had a QCF Ultra.
Posted by OMARAK on March 16, 2010 at 6:49 a.m. #91
What a shame guile had always been one of my favs. not anymore.
Posted by Cammy on March 16, 2010 at 7:13 a.m. #92
That just makes us want to see those QA guys (I'm sorry to ask, but what is "QA"?) against top players around the world.
Gotta be carefull with what you say. When you create a mith about this legendary fighters that are not allowed to enter tournaments, people will wanna see them in action, specially against those we are used to think are the elite players (Daigo, for example)
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 7:18 a.m. #93
b4ym4n #98
You think that Guile players would like that? A QCF ultras... I wouldn't be so sure!!
I have a better idea: do you know Guile's crouching forwards HK? Just make it crouching backwards and we have a nice set up for our Guile! That move even looks like a set up...
Posted by Nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 7:26 a.m. #94
OMARAK #99
Your liking of characters depends on tier lists? - really sad...
My favorite ultra in SF4 is Guile's, and I don't care that it sucks. I love it, because it looks amazing!!
Don't torture yourself with Guile all the time, but don't abandon him completly just because he isn't a high tier
Posted by Jarv on March 16, 2010 at 7:44 a.m. #95
Why do you guys care about the QA guys' skill? I don't really care how they play, just that they make a great game. Super looks great!
Posted by b4ym4n on March 16, 2010 at 7:50 a.m. #96
@ Nelaelu
I wouldn't have a problem with it. Guile, in other games, has had many super moves that were QCF. I do like the idea of the Guile High Kick actually having a use; but, either way, the developers refuse to let him link his Ultra.
On top of that, people keep saying, "All he needs is buffed normals." No. Imagine doing all that work with those buffed 1-frame link, normals, just for someone to dragon punch spam FADC -> Ultra you for half health. Ugh.
Posted by Sairus on March 16, 2010 at 7:51 a.m. #97
@Cammy #100
QA is Quality Assurance.
Posted by griever2000 on March 16, 2010 at 8:36 a.m. #98
@104
you don't have to spam your normals either against those that spams DP. The majority of the time you can just pause for an instant and you will see your opponent completely miss their attack. After you can punish them with more powerful combos.
I think he needs better normal priority and more stun resistance
(900 stun for guile is not enough)
Posted by fresco4eva on March 16, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. #99
(seth) does this guy eva answer a question.... its like u ask him something and he starts talking about something else... wtf... who cares about what u think if the top players play the q&a guys... answer the damn question...
Posted by Flux289 on March 16, 2010 at 9:12 a.m. #100
I really hope their upcoming announcement is third strike hd remix that would be so epic!
Posted by supershoto2k10 on March 16, 2010 at 9:14 a.m. #101
i agree stop bitchn abt tier bs learn how to play with more than one character jeez so scrubby these days on here all ppl do is whine and moan and they seem 2 think capcom are to blame they give us the best fighting games and it used to be rushed out in many forms to get where they are now sf4 is a way forward and im all for that with ssf4 on the brink of release and im sure u will still moan b4 there next release 2, so if u like the older games mechanics wot the hell are u cryn abt this for go play the game that u seem to always bring up wen a new one is being discussed u scrubby 1 character punks i dont know hoe some of guys can listen to this crap all the time from these noobs who dwell in the past and moan about the future ...
Posted by Darkness on March 16, 2010 at 9:28 a.m. #102
How about answering real questions like is SSFIV coming out for the PC? Killian looks and sounds and is a tool.
On another note, I don't get why everyone says Guile is weak. His kicks are killer. You don't even need his special moves to win a match.
Posted by irrenmann on March 16, 2010 at 9:28 a.m. #103
From the same interview:
"Shack: Why does Guile still suck?
Seth Killian: Guile is a tough one. Guile's had a long run at the top in the Street Fighter series, I'll say that. I don't feel too bad for the Guile players of the world. There are some amazing Guile players out there that do some incredible stuff with him, but I agree. All the charge characters have a hard time with the Focus-Cancel system. It's not necessarily their friend.
As you know, if you've played a lot online or otherwise: a good turtle-style Guile can still be successful. Guile's not a rush-down character so he can't get in your face and do the same stuff that other characters can do. A good turtle Guile is really going to wear you down. It's a mental game with him. In some of the previous Street Fighter games, he's been a dominant character. His techniques don't transfer as powerfully to the SF4 engine, but he's still a force to be reckoned with."
He basically admits that the game engine is broken in that it will always favor non-charge characters.
I guess we all knew this, but it's still sort of disheartening to have the question "Why does Guile still suck" answered not with "He doesn't" but with "he isn't fixable because of the Focus-Cancel system."
I can't really respect a game engine that inherently makes second-class citizens out of characters who have been popular for decades. I hope they can avoid that for a possible Street Fighter V in the future.
Posted by Darkness on March 16, 2010 at 9:30 a.m. #104
All they gotta do for the charge characters is instead of holding back for two seconds and then front, just cut it down to one second. it'll make the game so much better. but guile doesn't suck imo. he dishes some serious damage.
Posted by denjinBlanka on March 16, 2010 at 9:43 a.m. #105
Roooar!
Posted by Malkathius on March 16, 2010 at 9:44 a.m. #106
I wish I could ask them why Claw is even in the game.
Posted by recovery on March 16, 2010 at 10:44 a.m. #107
For Guile's/Vega's Ultra 1:
DOWN
DOWN
DOWN
+
Kick
(just like Hakan)
For M. Bison:
BACK
BACK
BACK
+
PUNCH
Easy fix
Posted by recovery on March 16, 2010 at 10:45 a.m. #108
air recovery will take on Super bar SLOT, you can't spam it.
They will add it in SFV. trust me on that
Posted by recovery on March 16, 2010 at 10:46 a.m. #109
one*
Posted by Telvanni on March 16, 2010 at 10:46 a.m. #110
@114
Why ask when any of the original SF2 cast is in then?
Posted by Pusha_T on March 16, 2010 at 10:54 a.m. #111
Just adding a lol humour lol
lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLsY49...
lmao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPPjx1...
haha: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLKqGZ...
Posted by Pusha_T on March 16, 2010 at 10:55 a.m. #112
Oops one more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw-WFT...
Posted by Invader_Darko on March 16, 2010 at 11:32 a.m. #113
Man so many tears in here I need an umbrella.
Posted by Guile on March 16, 2010 at 11:52 a.m. #114
inherent bias against charge characters?
dude dont believe this guy.
hes making an excuse
guile doesnt suck cuz hes charge
hes sucking cuz they intentionally made him that way. his basic design already could have made him good
ok u know his fd HK roundhouse.
looks just like Sagat's roundhouse
works similarly with a lot less range. if u hit someone, they juggle and u can connect to ex flash kick
but it doesnt connect to ultra unlike with Sagat
if they made it bd HK, it could
now i wonder: why didnt they make it so people can connect to ultra by making that kick back down HK? thats all they had to do, change the inputs!
so right there he had an ultra setup for SF4 they didnt give him and woulda done a lot less damage and harder to do than with sagat. instead they gave sagat a much more deadly version and gave nothing to guile.
further probs having nothing to do with guile being charge:
why does he have such a low stun? its embarressing
why does he do so little damage
why are the other chage characters getting command ultras and not him? Its essential to getting the Sonic hurricane to work like it used to
why does the sonic hurricane only get 2 hits on airborne opponents?
why does the FK not even work?
a whole lot of other problems.
it has nothign to do with him being a charge character,
u guys see how awesome chun li is turning out? top tier easily. balrog is already there.
this is a BS response
Posted by joker101 on March 16, 2010 at 12:04 p.m. #115
@111: Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Posted by anti_nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 12:04 p.m. #116
@ recovery #44
What is your problem dude? Aerial recoveries are the only way to beat out some character's annoying ass ultra juggles, like balrog, sagat, gouken, and now probably chun li, but worst of all RYU! gets his ultra in on you all day. That's why air recoveries absolutely have to return.
Posted by anti_nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 12:06 p.m. #117
@ nelaelu #53
Your danny sux so stop trying to brag.
Posted by anti_nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 12:09 p.m. #118
@ nelaelu #91
You don't live in Chi town you live in a suburb.
Posted by Telvanni on March 16, 2010 at 12:12 p.m. #119
"now i wonder: why didnt they make it so people can connect to ultra by making that kick back down HK? thats all they had to do, change the inputs!"
You can hit his on a grounded opponent, unlike Sagat's. Sagat's f.HK - Ultra has to be done on a jumping opponent or at least one in the air.
And can't you do DF-DB-UF For his Ultra, or did they remove all the shortcuts?
Posted by anti_nelaelu on March 16, 2010 at 12:13 p.m. #120
@ nelaelu #101
If they did that Guile would be overpowered. They made Guile low tier for a reason, his ultras both looks great. Now they are also giving him the ability to put on his sunglasses DURING a fight?!?! Seriously if he had setups for his ultras, I don't think that Guile would be beatable.
Posted by Telvanni on March 16, 2010 at 12:22 p.m. #121
@128
Not as much as any other character in the game. The move itself is hard to land, and you have to hit a jumpin fairly deep in order to combo into it.
Posted by b4ym4n on March 16, 2010 at 1:24 p.m. #122
@joker #123
#111 has a very valid point. Blatantly admitting that the focus system is broken and favors certain characters while inhibiting others is ridiculous. So, shut your dirty mouth.
Posted by crazychillz on March 16, 2010 at 2:56 p.m. #123
@ guile #122.
I agree. guile has obvious nerfs, and it's not because his charge style doesn't fit the focus system. Blanka, Bison, Balrog, and Chun Li aren't broken characters, they have weapons to use.
Killian's answers are very vague. They changed how flashkick functioned so that it isn't reliable, took down damage/range/priority on his normals, and gave him an ultra he could never use.
If the QA guys were seriously the best in the world, then it'd be blatantly obvious to them that certain characters are broken.
He said it himself, in his mind Guile has been at the "top" of the SF world for too long so he doesn't feel bad at all that he sucks now. Doesn't even deny it anymore.
Posted by Invader_Darko on March 16, 2010 at 3:13 p.m. #124
The focus system isn't broken.. He said fdacing works better for some chars than others. Even then I can fdac out of blocked moves with them easily. Doesn't have to always fdac into ultras. Jesus this place is getting out of hand.
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 16, 2010 at 3:21 p.m. #125
Guile does nearly the exact same damage as he did in CVS2, his stun has ALWAYS been a little lower. All they really need to do in this game was give his hitboxes back, and buff his frames so he has more combo's, the end.
Posted by b4ym4n on March 16, 2010 at 3:23 p.m. #126
@Invader Darko.
But the fact is some characters CAN FADC into Ultra. That is the issue. All of the characters that can FADC into Ultra are pushed into high tier. It's a mechanic that's not fair. You want to keep FADC in? Fine. But make so that NO ONE can combo into Ultra. God, you're so dumb.
Posted by Invader_Darko on March 16, 2010 at 3:35 p.m. #127
Also its been stated that guile has had an increase in dmg in his normals. Not sure where your seeing its been nerfed.
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 16, 2010 at 3:42 p.m. #128
@#64 nelalu
1. Look at tier lists and consider that most ryu users don't use him to even half his capacity. Hell, most of the time i watch an american tourny the ryu is randomly jumping in and missing combo's against a sagat, makes it look worse than it really is.Ryu users should be the LAST people to complain about sagat, but they are usually the first.
2. Sagat is harder to play than ryu, seriously. His moves are more punishable and require spacing, not even his jabs can be mashed. There's a ryu army but there's not so much a sagat army as soon as people pickup the game. If your opponent can punish random moves then you're not winning anymore.
3.Ryu is about the highest damage dealing character in the game. The fact that you believed that BS list was why iw as calling you an idiot, as only someone who had NEVER even played the game would be naive enough to believe that list. Ryu has like 14 different ways to land ultra, and his super is also auto-hit against most of the cast. He can actually save for his super easily, because his moves are so save and they don't need an EX version to be useful. Even sagat needs his meter for EX tiger.
4. Ken is far worse than ryu, everything he does is inferior to ryu in this game. Again, someone who's played the game should know this.
5. Ryu's combos are brainless and very, very damaging. If his combos are "weak" who's aren't? There's a reason he's just under sagat on every list.
Posted by roarmonster on March 16, 2010 at 6:09 p.m. #129
at 54
i cant believe i just read somebody saying that the only thing that makes ryu good is his dragon punch into ultra. I also cant believe i just read somebody saying that seth is incredibly weak and useless, seth would be by far the most broken character if he had more life, so thank god hes weak. I mean o my god this must be were a lot of those shltty online ryus and kens go to
Posted by roarmonster on March 16, 2010 at 6:18 p.m. #130
@dude right above me
ok ryus bitch about sagat because half of them dont know what there talking about and the others what there character to be the strongest. Ken is far inferior in sf4, but thats were my agreement stops.
first of all, ryus damaging combos arent brainless at all. i mean cmp into cfp into hhk isnt easy at all. neither is cmp into cmk into fireball, there one frames, and im assuming those are the comboes ur talking about because jabs into medium punch or kick ande insert move here doesnt do that much damage at all. his dragon punch intro ultra is brainless in damaging but combo wise hes not that brainless at all....
now to get to the point UR A DUMB@SS
why is because you said he is pretty much the highest damaging character in the game. sagat makes ryu look like a d@mn pixy when it comes to damage. dumb@ss
Posted by JerseyFame on March 16, 2010 at 6:28 p.m. #131
Oh you guys said you were going to give Guile 2 frame links?
huh?
I thought i heard that mentioned somewhere, my mistake.
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 16, 2010 at 6:37 p.m. #132
Yea, ryus combos are really brainless. I mean, looking at daigo vids the one that he usually uses to punish is f+fierce...anything else, which is pretty much safe even if you mess it up as you'll probably get SRK..i taught a female friend how to do that in 10 seconds when she's never played streetfighter, thats brainless.
What exactly is going to happen if you miss those one frame links? The opponent won't be able to punish you unless they were mashing...who is king masher? Oh yea, ryu, and mashing is brainless too.
Yea, sagat is the highest damaging character in the game, until you consider the fact that ryu has so many links most tourny goers literally seem to freeze while deciding which one they are going to do, and the fact that his almost guaranteed ultra or super amount to 700 damage easily. Not even sagat has guaranteed damage.
It's all good though, instead of playing a character that requires thinking you could cry about how hard it is to play ryu.
Posted by chickenwings on March 16, 2010 at 8:05 p.m. #133
@Nelaelu
Dude, his corner setups require no fadc and net close to 500 dmg. And one of the things ur forgetin about is that ryu doesnt need ex moves to win. Its not like bison where he is dependent on ex bar to give him invic frames, ryu can stack meter without even thinking about it. And those slight differences in his frame data is the difference between geting hit and beating another characters move and it also effects how stupid easy his combos flow together.
As for sagat, yea he has all his ranges covered but again it takes more time to get them down. Spaceing the swing kick and tk ranges isnt automatic and punishing them is really easy. And his kara game really takes practice(geting unwanted kara uppers instead of fireballs can really ruin ur day) Ryu on the other hand really if ur careful u cant go wrong.
Hes a common sense character. And the only problem with that is again his tools are the best in the game if not placed within the ton 3. Again ken is a good character, and he has alot of the same stuff that ryu has but why is ryu 1000000 times better, and no its not just the ultra setups either. And compare him to akuma, akuma is a fantastic character with alot of offensive weapons to keep u guessing but akuma is a character that unlike ryu pays for his abilities with low stamina(imo akuma along with c viper are the best designed fighters in the game). Ryu has no flaws, and for an all around character that doesnt make any dam sense, the fact that hes all around should be his flaw but again everything he has is the best which really isnt what an all around character should be. Say what u want, but like i said before, play another character for a week, play akuma or ken since there similar and see how different things become.
Posted by recovery on March 16, 2010 at 8:38 p.m. #134
Ryu's lp shoryuken should only work as a counter, and not have that insane reach it has as an anti-air.
Ryu should take some Ryu skill to use. Like Akuma and Gouken
Capcom's philosophy now is "Hey we're making a Mario Kart game," some will be easy to use (Yoshi) while others will be impossible/dumb to use (Donkey Kong). Why kill yourself like a jackass when you can just connect your Ultra 24/7 with Ryu?
Posted by Blanks on March 16, 2010 at 8:54 p.m. #135
Wow, all this Ryu bashing almost makes me feel bad for him. Almost... But he deserves it. Completely.
Posted by chickenwings on March 16, 2010 at 9:12 p.m. #136
@blanks
its not bashing, its just.... cmon already. Like recovery said, why should i beat myself up learn another character when i can take the easy route and get instant results. Imo thats the biggest reason why 1 in 5 fights i have is against ryu online(after him its balrog sagat, oddly enough rufus is another moron proof character but i never fight him online).
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:15 a.m. #137
@recovery #113
I does make sense to take away one bar for air recovery... but some air recoveries just look silly!! Lets say you do your super or ultra and your opponent doesn't fall but air recovers (like in Alpha3) - it makes your move look weak. Unless they somehow thought it through well...
Also, taking away from your ultra bar could be a better idea (cause you already have ex moves and supers draining your super bar)
We will see... it's way too early to talk about SF5!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:26 a.m. #138
Guile #119
So true... boxer is a charge character and it didn't stop him from being one of the best characters (with extremly easy set ups). Seth should come up with better arguments, cause he sounds like an amateur!!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:30 a.m. #139
@anti_nelaelu #121
WELCOME my evil brother!!! What a surprise!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:43 a.m. #140
@Telvanni #124
"You can hit his on a grounded opponent, unlike Sagat's. Sagat's f.HK - Ultra has to be done on a jumping opponent or at least one in the air"
Yeah, but Sagat has many other good set ups. That one good set up for Guile wouldn't make him cheap or overpowered for sure...
"And can't you do DF-DB-UF For his Ultra, or did they remove all the shortcuts?"
Really?? Could you ever do his ultra holding DF? That would make the set up work!!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:46 a.m. #141
@anti_nelaelu #125
Yes my evil brother... the sunglasses change everything!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:58 a.m. #142
Invader_Darko #129
Good point!! FADC is definitely better for no charge characters... but that's why you give charge characters things to balance it out. Even Guile's projectile could suck... but they gave it good recovery and the knee move (that can push him forwards without ruining his charge)
Your comment made Seth's answer more acceptable for me though. THX!!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 4 a.m. #143
MadnessFamilyguile #133
1. Wrong, tier list are calculated at high-level play, where people know how to play Ryu (and other characters) They are valid at other levels of play too... but become more important at high level (where people have similar (great) skill)
2. Despite of Ryu's Shinku Hadouken Sagat can still outzone him... therefore Ryus are sometimes forced to jump in (even though it's not recommended). I agree though that Ryu's got way more tools to fight Sagat than most characters do, but that still doesn't mean he's closely as good as Sagat. Dhalsim's got even better tools to fight Sagat. Does that make him as good as Sagat?
3. The higher the level of play the more Sagats you see...
4.What do you say about Sagat's safe lk Tiger Knee or ability to connect crouching lk into damaging combos? True, he's slower and harder to connect than Ryu, but keep in mind his range and damage. Even if Ryu's bit easier to play he needs to work so much harder for victories...
5. That ranking was made in consideration of characters' entire moveset. The most damaging character is Zangief, don't you agree? Even if it's not the only important factor, the ranking is valid. Period.
6. Don't confuse easiness to use Ryu's ultra and super with damage dealing!! I already agreed that his ultra is easiest to use (and probably his super too), didn't I?
7. Ryu's not just under Sagat!! Even if he's 2nd, he's WAY BELOW Sagat. Check the exact points, than argue...
8. Everything Ken does is inferior... terrible argument!! Ken's got way better damage dealing (example: Ken's Ex Srk 240/ Ryu's 140, Ken's Tatsu 240/ Ryu's 120), better mid range (great forward step kick!), better or at least comparable cross ups(mk. lk, ex tatsu), equal stamina/stun... need more?
Ryu's moves are safer (tatsu, lp shoryu), have better recovery (hadoukens) and MOST importantly his super and ultra ARE EXTREMLY USEFUL. That's why Ryu is better/ higher tier than Ken.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 4:30 a.m. #144
@chickenwings #138
"Dude, his corner setups require no fadc and net close to 500 dmg"
I already agreed on that, but remember it's corner ONLY. Sagat can FADC into ultra for over 600 ALMOST everywhere, and f-HK or trade T.Uppercut then ultra without a single ex...
Yes, I can agree that Sagat's got couple of harder tricks, but he's still a pretty straight forward character. If he's harder than Ryu... then not much! Please read my argument no.4 above
Yeah, I play Dan, lol!! Ken isn't that much worse... read no. 8 above! Akuma's got way better damage dealing, triple hadokens, air hadokens, teleports, faster movement, crazy combos etc. He's about as good as Ryu (check the recent tier list) despite of his low stamina and hard to connect ultra. If he had them too, he would be way better then Sagat!!
Posted by Remy77077 on March 17, 2010 at 4:37 a.m. #145
#26 is an excellent comment. I'd also run the numbers on this and written about why SFIV is not even as "balanced" as it really seems:
http://agoners.wordpress.com/2010/02/...
Posted by Remy77077 on March 17, 2010 at 4:44 a.m. #146
Hmm, 6-4 matchups means it's ok? I beg to differ! Sorry to post the same link as I did in the other article thread, but it's even more relevant here:
http://agoners.wordpress.com/2010/02/...
Posted by Remy77077 on March 17, 2010 at 4:48 a.m. #147
- Apologies for the double (now triple) post! The new logout/login thing took me back to the front page and I messed up... there doesn't seem to be anyway to delete. Sorry Eventhubs!
Posted by sweatypalm on March 17, 2010 at 11:03 a.m. #148
@remy77077
I am a casual player and have completed all the normal trials on just about every character and all the hard trials on 4 characters. Have you ever considered that if you don't get anywhere near the same results (as a casual player yourself i am assuming) that maybe you just suck?
If you want to complain about the execution then complain about the stupid shortcuts on moves like dp. Saying that the execution is just inherently too difficult is lulzworthy.
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 17, 2010 at 12:17 p.m. #149
1: Like i said, i regularly see "pro" ryus jumping in unwisely and dropping combos, it's essentially the difference between japanese ryus and everyone else.
2: Sagat can barely outzone Guile just that way, again watch a professional match. If guile is a charge character and the best sagats can barely merc him in a fireball war, they can't do it to ryu who can duck high tigers and sail over low ones with tatsu, then it's sagat who has to get in. Dhalsim and ryu..are not the same thing, invalid comparison.
3:Depends where you are, notice all the elite sagats got pieced out in the world tournies, how many ryus made it?
4: His knee is -7 which isn't really "safe" unless you know how to space it. Ryu can connect his jab into damaging combo's, what's your point? He's also nearly impossible to safe jump, vortex, corner trap, and has amazing option selects.
5: If you believe that whole list, you must think Guile does nearly as much damage as rufus, which is hilarious. Dan does more damage that viper? HAH! Vega does more damage than ryu? Like i said anyone who truly believes that is either insanely stupid or has never played the game.
6:A move can do 900 damage and it won't make a difference if it never connects, otherwise vega and guiles ultras are awesome compared to ryus.
7:How the hell is he not below sagat? Even though those matches are "5", ryu clearly has an advantage over his opponents. Hell, health is probably the only reason he's not blowing people away just like sagat, and sagat lost 100 health but was clearly manageable in this game.
8: Terrible argument...it's also true. moves faster which means better rushdown, better sweep which means better mixup, better opportunities to actually APPLY damage, which matters, better zoning by far, more options, equally ambiguous crossup that you're more likely to see, amazing at any distance, better focus attack.... i could go on and on and on.
Posted by RA_MO on March 17, 2010 at 1:11 p.m. #150
Does anyone on this site own Street Fighter IV for the Playstation 3? It seems no one is really on to challenge and those that I do are pretty much of a jerk. If they beat you once they kick you out of their room. If so please look me up online and add me as a friend. I really do need to improve if I am ever going to beat "him" one day..
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:09 p.m. #151
If Sagat couldn't easily outzone Guile then their match up wouldn't be 7-3...
I didn't say Ryu isn't good (therefore I agree with most of what you said about his advantages), but he's nowhere close to Sagat!!
Sagat's lk Tiger knee connected on the 2nd hit is safe and works on crouching opponents (Ryu's tatsu is good, but you can just crouch to avoid it)
I analized the damage myself and gave you examples. I didn't say it's perfect (cause it doesn't include things like easiness to combo etc), but it roughly tells you where particular characters are. Ryu can get good damage cause he can combo easily, not because his moves are strong (that's what separates him from vega). Sagat has both: combos and great damage from single moves!
Yeah, Ryu right below Sagat on the tier list, but check the difference in points between them... and then between Ryu and next five characters!
Not all Ryu"s moves are faster than Ken's... mostly specials.
I agree about zoning and options
How's Ryu's focus better? Only his ability to FADC is way better...
Ken's way better at attacking from medium range - due to his amazing forward step kick and fast ex tatsu. You can get to the enemy way easier with him than with Ryu! That mid range is quite weak for Ryu (as opposite to his great close and far ranges)
I'm telling you Ken is worse than Ryu, but not as much as many people think he is.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:10 p.m. #152
I was refering to @MadnessFamilyguile #154
Posted by Nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 2:16 p.m. #153
@RA_MO #155
Beat who? Daigo, Wong, your uncle, devil himself?? Now you really made me courious...
Sorry i've got xbox... Maybe my evil brother "anti-nelaelu" has PS3 (as he's got everything the opposite way)
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 17, 2010 at 3:12 p.m. #154
"If Sagat couldn't easily outzone Guile then their match up wouldn't be 7-3..."
-Doesn't have that much to do with the matchup, you don't know it and you didn't look at videos to learn.
-How is he nowhere close to sagat? he goes 5-5 with him and is ALWAYS just under him. If it weren't for sagats health they'd probably be the same.
-Ryu can cr mk to go under sagats knee, even guiles flashkick can knock sagats tk out. It still needs to be spaced.
-The list is insanely stupid, period. No competent player would find that useful, i'm 100% sure of that.
- Ryu's movement speed is faster. Ken's focus attack is slower and awkward
-Ken is not better at attacking at mind range, or any other range. The step kick can be focused and you barely see it at higher level, should be the opposite if it's "amazing". Ken's tatsu and his SRK constantly drop hits if they are not combo'd you're not gonna see him toss that out from mid range.
Ken is maybe low mid tier, ryu is elite.
Posted by RA_MO on March 17, 2010 at 3:23 p.m. #155
I have already defeated my uncle and the devil himself still owes me $50 from the last time he lost to me. Daigo is whom I was referring to and I guess all the greats for that matter. Justin, Valle, Combo, Mago, Shiro... Etc. The list goes on. Just facing them would be nice. Facing anyone really is always a new learning experience. :)
Posted by anti_nelaelu on March 17, 2010 at 7:37 p.m. #156
@ RA_MO
im that evil broski.
hit me up sometime.
PSN: surowksdawg
Posted by Nelaelu on March 18, 2010 at 2:44 a.m. #157
RA_MO #160
LOL!!!!
Check my evil brother anti-nelaelu!!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 18, 2010 at 3:12 a.m. #158
@MadnessFamilyguile #159
Nothing personal, but are u like junior high or high school? Cause u don't seem capable of reading simple charts like tier lists. Unless you're just being a jacka$$ puposely... If not, start paying attention in your classes, especially math, kid!
New match-up for Sagat-Ryu is 6-4 (it was in Sagat's favor before, but more like 5,5-4,5)
Between Sagat 148 (1st place) and Ryu 134 (2nd place) - 14 points of difference
Between Ryu 134 (2nd place) and C. Viper 122(11th place) - only 12 points of difference
Ryu and Ken are 17 points apart (not much more than between Sagat and Ryu)
DIFFERENCE IN POINTS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE ACTUAL PLACE!!
Learn to read data carefully or you won't ever succeed in college or university kid... sorry!!
Posted by chickenwings on March 18, 2010 at 12:43 p.m. #159
THe funny thing about the tier list is that most of ryus matchs are 6s, he has 9 5s out of a cast of 24(im not counting the mirror). And some of those 5s like ryu v abel are up in the air since the only time abel can really threaten ryu is when he has his ultra and ryu throws a careless fireball. And then u have viper vs ryu where the viper player by default has to be a better player since viper is a more advanced character. Vs geif is another one that u can argue about, yea once gief gets in he can smash ryu but ryu has his more then enough tools to keep him out and a whole timed mash can break alot of the slams. And then that 4/6 versus sagat is a joke. The only reason is a people feel its a 4/6 is because ryu actually has to freakin work if he wants to win. Out of all the characters in the game ryu does the least amount of thinking.
Posted by Nelaelu on March 18, 2010 at 10:28 p.m. #160
@chickenwings #164
The funny thing is I already said couple of times that Ryu is a very good character... so obviously his match ups are good. I was merely arguing that putting him right next to Sagat is ridiculous. Check Sagat's match ups - only two 5-5 and six 7-3.
And btw I don't cry over the balance. Overall the game is well-balanced... if you take away Sagat and Dan (and Seth due to his 8-2 match up vs Zangief)it's amazingly balanced!!
Posted by chickenwings on March 18, 2010 at 11:19 p.m. #161
Dude, at the end of the day ryu is geting toned down. That just proves it. A very good character doesnt have an advantage on most of the cast. Like i said, ryu is supposed to be a swiss army knife, meaning he has a little saw, a screw driver, etc. Hes not supposed to have a chain saw and power drill. And no, this game isnt "amazingly" balanced. Too many characters have too many problems that keep them from being competitive.
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 19, 2010 at 12:04 a.m. #162
@163
Hey if you think the chart you mentioned is valid, you must be stupid, so ofcourse you're not going to understand what i'm saying, i warned you. Or, you're just a ryu player who wants an excuse for losing because i doubt you can explain how ryu has the same chances as ken in the sagat matchup, but then you think ken is awesome so...
Tier lists aren't the end-all and be-all to games, i believe that's like one of the FIRST things written there. You should aim lower than college or university, this is a simple video game and even your understanding of the most basic character is elementary.
Posted by TimbocClock on March 19, 2010 at 5:48 a.m. #163
so basically no they didn't look at the teirs oh well at least cammy got bumped up to C. For the people who say 'oh it anit about the tiers and your just rubbish' i bet there the ppl who actually do pick sagat and ryu all the time! and the only reason they gat as far as they do is because there sooooooooooooo basic and easy to learn. i pick cammy cuz i want to pick cammy and i actually have fun! i work hard to grind down sagats just to get boxed in the jaw with an upercut that makes the damage i did from the combo patheic! oh well just keep rockin on with your bad self you never no you might do a real fireball one day!
ps3: TimbocClock for some cammy madness!
Posted by Nelaelu on March 19, 2010 at 2:55 p.m. #164
TimbocClock #168
It's awesome that you keep playing your favorite character regardless of how low on the tier list she is. I always amire people who play lower tiers because it takes so much more skill and intelligence to succeed.
Many players want to win at all cost, so they pick best characters, even if they don't like them that much...
