1:26 p.m.
Seth: Gen's wall dive is better, other SSF4 notes
Many players were upset over early reports that Gen didn't receive enough improvements in Super Street Fighter 4 to make him a better overall character.
While it appears his Standing Medium Kick into Rapid Slap combo has been removed, Capcom's Seth Killian recently visited the Unity Boards to explain some of the new things he got. He also chimed in on Guile's second Ultra, the Sonic Hurricane, and touched on general character balance.
Here's the low down.
In this list of Super Street Fighter 4 changes, Gen only saw nerfs, what gives?
Seth Killian: He has a few new bits but probably the best of them is the much faster wall-dives. They were essentially useless in Street Fighter 4 (apart from EX as escape), but now they are legit — in my opinion they're better than Adon's, and every time they hit, it's a free Ultra.
At any rate, the post you are quoting from SRK was written by MrWizard. I was there when he played Gen — hell I was the one who invited him to play. That said, it was not exactly a scientific in-depth anything (nor did Wizard suggest it was). More like they played around with the characters in training mode for a while and jotted down some impressions. Wizard would tell you exactly the same thing, but given the level of anticipation around this game, even casual comments cause (in approximately 100% of cases) widespread overreaction.
They'll be plenty of time to yell about how your favorite didn't get the same stuff as somebody else's favorite after you've actually played the game, so please just bear with us and let's all play and experiment together before we decide what's broken, unfair, etc. ok? Seem fair?
I love discussing specifics but a big part of the fun with any new Street Fighter game is exploring and learning things for yourself. When MrWizard was up here last week to play the final build, he was asking me a ton of questions about specifics, even while he was playing at the same time. I gave MrWizard exactly what I give you guys — some basic info that leads in a direction or explains some of the thinking, but I don't tell him frame data, or the exact properties of a new move, etc., because discovering things for yourself is, in my opinion, one of the best parts about these games.
In addition to discovering on your own being fun, it also leads to debate, experimentation, and people coming up with new and interesting approaches to the game. If you start getting into too many specifics too far in advance, people start making up their minds about what's good/not good before they've even touched the game, which I hope you'll agree is silly. It's almost like people think like:
"THE ULTIMATE RANKINGS CHART IS HERE: Do not bother playing the game, or even trying the following fighters, because according to the Rank-O-Tron 3000 we plug into all our games at Capcom, your favorite character sucks."
You can say this isn't a "straight answer" but just asking a question doesn't mean anybody is obligated to answer it with all the specifics you've requested. I answer the questions I can, to the degree I can. I know that's not always enough for everyone, so I'm sorry, but try and keep things in perspective. There's a LOT of good Super Street Fighter 4 info out there already, but I'm not going to spoil the fun of discovering Super Street Fighter 4 on your own, the same way I wouldn't tell you who kills Dumbledore even if you asked.
I work very hard to get the game out in front of groups of people and smart players, and they can give you their impressions. It's not my job to dissect every mystery of the game, or tell people what the rankings are supposed to be before the game is even out. That's TBD once everybody has really had a chance to play!
What, in your opinion, will make Guile players prefer the Sonic Hurricane over the Flash Explosion (Ultra 1)? What other changes did he get?
Seth Killian: You can still combo a Sonic Hurricane after a Super, but it's not a big deal and it's difficult for Guile players to save up a full super bar anyway. Overall I'd say the Sonic Hurricane is just more versatile, and it helps him with counters from mid-close range where he can struggle most with people poking at him. Currently his best option is probably just [to] Flash Kick, focus-canceled to be safe, which is expensive. Flash Explosion isn't fast enough nor does it have enough horizontal range to counter people like the Sonic Hurricane.
It's not the most dramatic new Ultra in Super Street Fighter 4, but it helps him from the range where he needs it most. The "footsies boost" (hitbox adjustments) also helps him in that same range. He's obviously strong from across the screen, so all of the changes overall are designed to give him more juice at one of his weaker ranges.
Since the producer of SSF4 specifically said that an imbalance in inherent character abilities is a desirable state of affairs (i.e. rather than characters having different strengths and weaknesses, some are just plain strong and others are just plain weak) it gives us reason to think that that's what the game will be like.
Seth Killian: [...] I'm not sure what you're quoting, but I've never heard anyone at Capcom say that, or more importantly, make some development decision based on that idea. The idea you seem to be near is the acceptance that having truly different styles of characters means some will be better and worse in different situations. This leads to some degree of character imbalance, which is what makes particular Street Fighter matches so interesting. Why do people feel the need to intentionally misrepresent what's going on with balance? Once again, Street Fighter 4 was not only one of the best-balanced games of the current fighting crop, it's actually one of (if not *the*) most balanced game in Street Fighter history. The vast majority of matches in the game are 6-4 imbalances, which just isn't insurmountable — the better player wins those.
For instance, I was cruising around Game Developers Conference with two guys from the "God of War" team that are also great Street Fighter players. We passed by an Nvidia booth running Street Fighter 4 on PC. Of course there was a crowd, with one local tough guy blowing everyone away and talking trash. One of the God of War guys decided to take him out in the 15 minutes before the next panel. He picked Zangief and squished the bully's Ryu, so the bully (who didn't even offer to let anyone else play when he lost), said "you're not going to like THIS choice" and switched to Sagat — a very tough match up for Zangief. Of course the God of War guy absolutely smashed the bully again.
What's the point here? The bully was a pretty decent Street Fighter 4 player, and obviously knew enough to know that — according to the rankings chart — he couldn't lose. Unfortunately that's not how it works: Rankings charts give you a 5-5, 6-4, etc. rating *for a 10-game set between two skilled players of equal strength*. That's a situation that virtually never actually happens — it's mostly an abstraction — but I constantly see people refer to the rankings chart as an excuse for why they lost, or some sort of iron-clad predictor of the future. Of course balance matters, and Capcom is committed to it (our results have been good so far), but match to match, it's your skills that pay the bills, not the numbers on a chart.
Posted by zUkUu on March 15, 2010 at 1:45 p.m. #1
so a faster wall dive (which must be charged and is still easy to block AND punish) make up for the various other nerf? And Gen in corner = dead meat now.
"okay"
Posted by ScytheWP on March 15, 2010 at 1:47 p.m. #2
I like how he tears the tier list a new one...
Posted by chickenwings on March 15, 2010 at 1:48 p.m. #3
So having no options versus sagat/ryu makes the game interesting, i see.
Posted by AceKillah on March 15, 2010 at 1:48 p.m. #4
Sooooo guile cant FADC into Sonic Hurricane gj capcom -.-
Posted by ScytheWP on March 15, 2010 at 1:49 p.m. #5
@ 3
lol, I usually go against you...but that's funny
Posted by kara on March 15, 2010 at 1:50 p.m. #6
who killed Dumbledore?
Posted by rdj on March 15, 2010 at 1:51 p.m. #7
#1 wow please give us more insight into ssf4 since you obviously have played it. Also read the rest of the article.
Posted by sugar_shock on March 15, 2010 at 1:52 p.m. #8
I'm really glad Seth took the time to answer my questions. While I'm dissapointed how Sonic Hurricane won't have much combo potential, I couldn't be happier that they fixed his hit boxes and pokes :D
Posted by NJCU on March 15, 2010 at 1:52 p.m. #9
He already had a free Ultra after landing a wall dive !!!...I guess he doesnt really know much about the character to begin with.
Posted by kara on March 15, 2010 at 1:53 p.m. #10
SF's are generally pretty balance, some characters just take longer for the community to develop its groove
u look at the 3s scene now you can see bottom tier characters wrecking havoc across leader boards and trashing yun and makoto alike
Posted by MasterBIson on March 15, 2010 at 1:54 p.m. #11
HAHAHA you made seth angry with those questions man.Good seth you tried hard but whinners will be whinners no matter what you tell them they always need an excuse and of course then again you cant say that an skilled guile player will have it easy on a less skilled sagat player its just the way it is
Posted by JohnJohnson on March 15, 2010 at 1:54 p.m. #12
Thank you Seth. I'm tried of hearing "Sagat and Ryu are overpowered" crap all the time. I'm glad someone gave an answer that make since.
Posted by jrd8523 on March 15, 2010 at 1:54 p.m. #13
Give people one of the best balanced Capcom games yet and you get people doing nothing but complaining. Now people are whining about the even more balanced version that they know next to nothing about. Atleast use some common sense and actually PLAY the game before you start basing your opinions on little short blurbs.
Posted by m84uily on March 15, 2010 at 1:55 p.m. #14
Really, the Sagat player won, SK just wanted to make the story prove his point ;D
Posted by sugar_shock on March 15, 2010 at 1:55 p.m. #15
"He already had a free Ultra after landing a wall dive !!!...I guess he doesnt really know much about the character to begin with."
He only got a free Ultra if it hit them near the feet, I think. Seth implied that it is now a free Ultra no matter what.
Posted by OG on March 15, 2010 at 1:56 p.m. #16
Footsies boost for Guile? Will the whining stop now?
Posted by Dan34 on March 15, 2010 at 1:57 p.m. #17
If every match was 4-6 the better player would win most of the time but if it is 3-7 it really isn't that balanced. Guile has a few 3's and nothing to make up for it that is why he need's buffs.
Posted by Taxattack123 on March 15, 2010 at 1:58 p.m. #18
I kind of feel bad for Seth for having to put up with whiners, no offense.
Posted by sugar_shock on March 15, 2010 at 1:58 p.m. #19
"Give people one of the best balanced Capcom games yet and you get people doing nothing but complaining. Now people are whining about the even more balanced version that they know next to nothing about. Atleast use some common sense and actually PLAY the game before you start basing your opinions on little short blurbs."
so you tell us not to base opinions on a game that isn't out yet, from blurbs on the internet. I don't think you even realized that you just did the same thing you told us NOT to do >_>
Posted by areyouken on March 15, 2010 at 2:01 p.m. #20
This is pathetic, of course Zangief can beat Sagat, as long as Sagat doesn't know the matchup. Besides Sagat by far is not the worst match because Sagat cannot teleport away. With Sagat, once you get in, you can stay in. You can also exploit the "design flaw" of Sagat being too tall to duck under the larait. You easily do a wake-up game mixup of Lariat / Double German.
It means very little that someone who doesn't know the matchup loses on an avantagous character. Because if this "bully" knew the matchup he clearly would have chosen Akuma or Seth -- two characters that can teleport away.
Besides Sagat is strong against the grappler Honda, not necessarily the grappler Zangief. Zangief can build up his EX safely at a distance with the larait and use the EX Green Glove to through Tiger Shots. Honda has zero methods of going through fireballs.
Posted by L45R on March 15, 2010 at 2:01 p.m. #21
What a stupid comparison...the local guy is probably a noob..
and the GoW player's skill level is probably so much higher that of course the tier puts no weight..
Give me the best Sagat and best Gief on the world in a match to 10...
I'll put my life fortune on the Sagat player..period. I'll see how SSFIV will be more balance...
Posted by Selten64 on March 15, 2010 at 2:05 p.m. #22
If his oga wall is still unsafe on block its going to continue to be worthless =(
Posted by Supersf4 on March 15, 2010 at 2:05 p.m. #23
Gen killed Dumbledore.
Posted by Mehdi on March 15, 2010 at 2:05 p.m. #24
Gen wall dive now is better :? :( is Gen only in Wall dive
what he trying to proove seth?,Gen with no Mk-Hands and no chains combos(why Guy he does have i don't understand)
no reversal only at range :( no cross-up
make him do just wall dive free ultra and wall dive free ultra wall dive free ultra ........ :s :s :s
Gen wall dive is better what a change :(
Posted by jrd8523 on March 15, 2010 at 2:06 p.m. #25
Yeah Sugar_Shock. I guess the 14 month retweaked and balanced version of the game with the least amount of 7-3, 8-2 match ups could be more unbalanced... somehow. And since i'm mostly talking about the game thats been out for over a year....
The whiners are amazing. It mostly comes down to "my favorite character isn't one of the strongest in the game?... WAAAHHHH!!!!"
Posted by Th3_JoK3R_J on March 15, 2010 at 2:08 p.m. #26
All i see is "BLAH BLAH BLAH" until i see some Vega info only then i'll be more intrigued! >=(
Posted by CervejaDoBrazil on March 15, 2010 at 2:09 p.m. #27
I give Seth Credit sometimes but he sounds like a Filibuster right now. no joke
Posted by toge on March 15, 2010 at 2:11 p.m. #28
I think most of the Japanese Sagats would beat the Japanese Giefs...
Posted by MIRACLEfool on March 15, 2010 at 2:11 p.m. #29
@#20
I am pretty sure Honda goes through fireballs with his rocket headbutt man
Posted by Guile on March 15, 2010 at 2:12 p.m. #30
4-6 matchups i can tolerate.
Having a bunch of 3-7 matchups, i need some assurance that the problem gets solved.
with a lotta weaker characters like Vega they gave em decent ultras to give em some assurance and shut em up.
The problem is the SH is not such an ultra. Its prolly better but that doesnt mean its at least decent. low damage, useless anti-air, and little comboability - just an easier punisher for the most part.
im more interested in hitbox adjustment as that might actually help.
Posted by kara on March 15, 2010 at 2:15 p.m. #31
adon is pretty useless w/o a proper wall dive,
Posted by DJay2411 on March 15, 2010 at 2:18 p.m. #32
I agree with everything Seth said. And FYI Sagat kills Dumbledore!
Posted by zUkUu on March 15, 2010 at 2:20 p.m. #33
sugar_shock
Gen can ultra from any distance when wall dive hits.
its no buff in super. only change that was mentioned is that is it way faster (like adon) and still @rdj based on the information we have, only nerfs leaked tru for gen. the fact alone that mk => hands was removed is plain stupid. u dont have to know any frame data to see that this is one of the greatest nerfs in super from the very point of every character. it was part of his core game play. would be the same if they remove c.mk => hadoken.
Posted by Telvanni on March 15, 2010 at 2:20 p.m. #34
@NJCU
Try landing that thing in a match against someone who knows it's an overhead. His point was since it's faster you might actually be able to hit someone with it.
Posted by XsaintedsinnerX on March 15, 2010 at 2:21 p.m. #35
WOW, trolls are supposed to be few and far between but almost everytime something new is posted the troll patroll immediately jumps in and starts complaining lol! None of us have played this game yet and maybe...jsut maybe theres a little more going on than you guys may be aware of. Seth cant tell us everything that would be bad business, capcom isnt your "buddy" ists a corporation that needs to make money to continue making these games for our entertainment. So just relax. And as far as the bad match-ups they happen, dhalsim is great at a distance but not so hot up close, fei long needs to be close to shine. Instead of complaining maybe some of you should practice your difficult match ups and learn to overcome the things that are giving you trouble
Posted by Dribozyme on March 15, 2010 at 2:21 p.m. #36
DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD!?!? Thanks alot CAPCOM, you did it again!
Posted by Guile on March 15, 2010 at 2:25 p.m. #37
@35
funny thing is ur the troll.
this whole article is about improvements. of course its going to spark discussion on how its goign to affect to matchups. even seth talks about it in the article. lol
Posted by Rhyllis on March 15, 2010 at 2:25 p.m. #38
@ NJCU
He wasn't saying him being able to land the ultras is a new feature, he was simply saying that since now Wall Dive is so much faster, it's another viable way for Gen to land his ultras.
@ Sugar_shock
He actually can land his ultras no matter where he hits them. I, at least, have never seen Gen miss when he does the ultra as soon as he can.
Personally I'm not at all upset mk xx hands is gone/weakened. I think it gave people the wrong impression on Gen, like that's all he had going for him. I don't think it should be removed entirely, but I do think it should be toned down. It was clearly too useful in comparison to everything else he has, which is a shame. I think SSF IV Gen will be way more fun to play, and probably not much weaker/stronger.
EX Oga losing invincibility is a shame, but I don't know just how much invincibility it lost, so I can't comment much about it.
Gen is a complex character, one of the most detailed characters in the game. Mr. Wizard simply cannot find out everything about him that's different, so he checked the most common stuff. He could have a number of new tricks we don't know about yet.
Let's wait for the game to come out before we start complaining.
Posted by Psycho on March 15, 2010 at 2:30 p.m. #39
Street Fighter 4 was not only one of the best-balanced games of the current fighting crop.
No way that's true, maybe of the best balanced SF games but no that, just show me a Japanese Vega player winning a tournament beating Blanka in the finals.
Posted by Psycho on March 15, 2010 at 2:37 p.m. #40
Don't let Adon's Jaguar kick be unsafe on block like the guy said please.
Posted by XsaintedsinnerX on March 15, 2010 at 2:38 p.m. #41
@guile
im no troll i was just stating that its lame that everyone wants to blame the game for the problems they have with match ups instead of recognizing that they have hit a glass cieling and refuse to learn how to beat em. Debate is healthy complaining does nothing
Posted by Dan34 on March 15, 2010 at 2:39 p.m. #42
SF4 is very balanced their are only a few people in it who suck and all fighting games have people who aren't good.
MvC2=everyone but 12 people lol
Posted by SSJ3X on March 15, 2010 at 2:39 p.m. #43
I think we just need to wait. As it is, he did make a valid point about how the tier list is just an abstraction. While yes, you can clearly see that some character have more strength and endurance than the others, this isn't a reason to really argue what's good and what isn't now. We haven't touched the game yet.
Not only that, you have to think about who was available then when the arcade version of SFIV came out, to now when the console version was released. A lot of the console characters didn't get a lot of spotlight, so people who didn't familiarize themselves with a Rose or a Sakura, or whomever wasn't in the arcade version, didn't care. It's like the tier list, I don't know any Japanese players who play a console character, maybe a select few, but that's it, it's the same with the American players and Europe. Its the same with the new game, we've seen what most of these fellas can do, and they look good, but we won't know until we have the game in our possession for a few months if they are good.
Once the game comes out, we'll finally have our answers.
Posted by Lolento on March 15, 2010 at 2:40 p.m. #44
Honestly, I don't see why, or even how MK xx hands would be removed. It's not some black magic, it's just a normal move being canceled into a special move. Gen's MK is just your average medium normal, hyakurenkou is a regular special move. Why shouldn't you be able to cancel? It's just hard to do.
Which is why I wonder if MrWizard was doing it correctly or tried long enough. There are various ways of nerfing this combo if they wanted (like pushing the opponent further after hands to prevent another MK link, or reducing the forward step Gen takes specifically after canceling the MK into hands, which allows for the second MK to cancel once again into hands), simply removing it makes no sense.
Posted by kurokiba on March 15, 2010 at 2:40 p.m. #45
@ Psycho
Ill do that once you show me a tournament finals of these 2 matchups:
Mag-Sen-Sto vs Roll-Bot-T.Bon
Sean vs Chun
can you do that?
Posted by Ett on March 15, 2010 at 2:48 p.m. #46
Dumbledore DIED? WTF !
Posted by ogerrob1487 on March 15, 2010 at 2:49 p.m. #47
I feel like Seth is talking directly to eventhubs here. Just shut up and play the game. Well said, Seth.
Also, by expecting a perfectly balanced game, you are essentially expecting every character to be EXACTLY THE SAME. Thankfully, developers of fighting games realize that this would suck, and try to make the fighters diverse. This means that not every fighter will have the same options for similar circumstances. This is A GOOD THING.
Also, have some of you ever thought that maybe its not the character that sucks, its just YOU. Once you realize this, you can start realizing your own weaknesses as a player, rather than realizing the "weaknesses" of your character. I main Chun-Li, so I understand how hard it is to play VS Sagat and Ryu. But you don't hear me complaining because its not impossible to beat those characters. If I lose to a Sagat or Ryu, its because I did something wrong. If a Chun player can admit this, anybody should be able to.
Lesson: just learn your character AND HAVE FUN. Most of the fun is pushing yourself to do things you didn't think you could do. Its not about being the best in the world, its about being YOUR best. Once you realize this, the rest will follow.
Posted by Klaus_Raynor on March 15, 2010 at 2:49 p.m. #48
WTF Dumbledore DIES?!?!!!!
Posted by Firegod on March 15, 2010 at 2:59 p.m. #49
yea welp
Posted by EnglishKidChin on March 15, 2010 at 2:59 p.m. #50
This is the saddest day of my sf4 career.
Gen: "I'm too old to neeeeeeerf!"
Posted by ricefarmer on March 15, 2010 at 3 p.m. #51
im convinced capcom makes characters weak on purpose.. this is just a pr BS trying to make it sound right.. obviously people been screaming for guile to combo into ultra.. yet they didn't...
so... they aint listening hard enough
Posted by YoucefCef on March 15, 2010 at 3:02 p.m. #52
Who did ask Killian these questions?! The real question should have been : "Why not a double quart cicle for Guile Ultra 2 in order to combo after a FADC Flash Kick?!"
That's what I call an embarassing question!
Posted by oldboy on March 15, 2010 at 3:04 p.m. #53
@44 I'm starting to suspect the same thing. In the podcast they say the used turbo to test it out. But I wonder if they held the button right after the mk. Even with the turbo button you still have to be quick for that combo. They might have just mistimed the cancel. I can't really see Capcom removing it, It's like removing crouching mk to hadouken.
Posted by Dan_CiTi on March 15, 2010 at 3:06 p.m. #54
I'm calling it, Dan is going to be higher tiered than Gen.
Posted by NissanZaxima on March 15, 2010 at 3:07 p.m. #55
Wow seth was really really nice in his answer. I would have called all of you complainers idiots because thats what you really are. Seriously complaining about something in a game you havent played because some guy played that character for 10 minutes in training mode?
and He is right about SF4 being one of the most balanced SF games ever. Have you not played 3S where a bunch of match-ups are 7-3 and 8-2? Sure Sagat and Ryu are ridiculous but Sagat of SF4 compared to the Chun-Li of 3S isnt even comparable because Chun-Li is a much better "best" character.
So seriously shut up and wait to play this game before you cry. But then again by the looks of things it seems as if most of you people wont even buy SSF4 because of how much SF4 made you puke. Whats the point of buying a game if you are complaining about it before you play it?
Posted by Hyperbomb69 on March 15, 2010 at 3:08 p.m. #56
They nerfed Vega! what they should have done was shave some frames off of his recovery, vega should be faster than Dictator not slower. Vega used to be high tier in all the other games and now he is the second worst character in SF4 and from what im seeing, he is going to be the worst character and last one on the tier list for SSF4. Capcom is showing no love for Claw.
Posted by skeptical on March 15, 2010 at 3:09 p.m. #57
"There will always be winners and losers in a rankings chart; if there weren't disparities, the game would be a lot less fun, which everyone seems to forget immediately when they are talking about "There's an imbalance!" but I digress."
-Seth taken from the "Keno misquoted me about SSF4 info" article.
I'm pretty sure that is where the question arrived from Seth.
Posted by Speedwagon on March 15, 2010 at 3:11 p.m. #58
Honda has ZERO ways og safely gettin through fireballs.
Nothing he has has any kind of super armor. Nothing he has save the ULTRA has pass through properties.
Hakan's EX Oil Up has fireball pass through properties for God's sake! He just stands and shakes oil! How does that go through fireballs?
If they gave sumo Headbutt startup fireball passing like the ultra, it'd really give him an option against Sagat, Ryu, etc.
Maybe even the LP Sumo Headbutt eats a fireball, like in HDR?
Posted by mugen2k10 on March 15, 2010 at 3:12 p.m. #59
Bullcrap, its hard to defend ryus' safeness, he has to do alot less to win most matches, I play Bison and when the end of he match comes and he spamming hado's and srk's I fear the trade ultra death!
Posted by Lolento on March 15, 2010 at 3:16 p.m. #60
@#53 oldboy
I didn't listen to the podcast, thanks for that one.
Most turbo controllers I know fire about 8 times per second, which translates to one button press every 7.5 frames. Now, after pressing MK you have 4 frames of startup and less than 15 frames of impact freeze (being generous), for a total of 19 frames. The turbo controller won't have finished even the fourth button at that rate. You'd need a controller that can fire at the very least 13 times/second; I'm not knowledgeable about turbo controllers, but I've never seen any going that fast (certainly my old PS2 controller can't).
They could have tried something way simpler, like:
* MP, buffer 3 punches during the huge hitstun animation, then MK xx fifth punch
* Jump, buffer 4 punches during the jump, MK xx fifth punch
Posted by UAE4HAMAD on March 15, 2010 at 3:18 p.m. #61
what a sad thing about gen he just have 1 real combo >> mk - hands >>>> i hope mr. wizard was wrong with his info about gen .... COPCOM plz WE NEED THIS COMBO ... POOR GEN
Posted by Zaruka on March 15, 2010 at 3:26 p.m. #62
so no mk into hands and no chains to improve his close ground game, but hey we got a faster oga that most of the time good opponents see coming and block and punish.
yea a faster oga good but what else. gen crane style is too slow and not worth the damage he gets from it and his mantis style which is suppose to be a combo style like it was from alpha 3.
but hey we got a faster oga so where going to kick butt give me a break
Posted by NA on March 15, 2010 at 3:31 p.m. #63
Having to deal with the community must be driving poor Seth insane.
A lot of people fly off the handle at the smallest rumor, and people speak to him as if he is personally responsible for issues that aren't even real.
Posted by FistOfLambda on March 15, 2010 at 3:33 p.m. #64
They think making a perfectly balanced game makes the characters the same? Hardly. This is one of the most retarded fighting game philosophy i've ever heard. You can make a perfectly balanced SF game without making it the "same" simply because each character has different styles. No, i'm not expecting a 5-5 for every character, I expect some bad matchups for different characters simply because of the difference in STYLE. F--k, capcom, character's style is what makes them different, not the balance. Saying that imbalanced game provide uniqueness for characters is just your lame excuse for not listening to the fans hard enough to just give each characters a working linkable ultra. For example, would allowing guile to combo into sonic hurricane and overall buffing his frame, hit boxes, pokes and etc move him up very high in the tier list? yes. Does that make him the same as sagat who is the current "best" character? NO.
Imbalance does not equate uniqueness, it only detracts from the fun. Combacks is also what makes fighting games so fun and unique, and ultra combos are the bridge to those excitements and fun. Take away a solid, linkable ultra to rely on, you take away a huge part of what makes SF such great series.
Posted by japo2300 on March 15, 2010 at 3:34 p.m. #65
wtv, most of the time if u r skilled enough you can deal with many online players, this tiers only apply in major tournaments, so why whine so much just get the best shape of your character.
Posted by Telvanni on March 15, 2010 at 3:36 p.m. #66
@Guile:
How is Vega's 2nd Ultra any better than his first? There's no confirmation if you can combo into it, and from what I hear, it isn't even a command Ultra. It's another charge.
Posted by NissanZaxima on March 15, 2010 at 3:38 p.m. #67
@ FistOfLambda
Dont buy this game then go play one of your "perfectly" balanced fighting games that you talk about.
Posted by youngtuna on March 15, 2010 at 3:38 p.m. #68
Dumbledore dont even die.......
i read potter all of them what the ass capcom
Posted by JinZo on March 15, 2010 at 3:41 p.m. #69
Wow this is just.. stupid
Faster Oga is never gonna make up for MK-Hands. Oga never works in the first place against players with half a brain. If Oga is faster, that means it can punish offensive players more often, but once they play very defensive Oga will be useless. Oga is just a hit-or-miss risk taker that was better used as and an escape utility with EX, but since they seem to be nerfing that now I don't know what would be in stock for Gen..
The only information Seth gave us in this stupid article is the improved Oga only and nothing else.. this is a sign that Gen is indeed dead.
Posted by brenttiscool on March 15, 2010 at 3:42 p.m. #70
You need to understand what Seth is saying. He's saying that most people whine of bad matchups but the fact is that they would have lost regardless, simply because they are not the better player. Tier lists state a matchup based off of two EQUALLY SKILLED players, not two random guys online or in tournament. Give Alex Valle or Justin Wong Zangief and you pick Sagat and let them show you how bad the matchup is. If you lost the match, regardless of who your using, it's probably because you were not the better player. Besides, Sagat v Zangief is nowhere near as bad as Fei Long v Gouken, ;P.
Posted by MAXOUT12 on March 15, 2010 at 3:42 p.m. #71
same
Posted by Mr12000 on March 15, 2010 at 3:43 p.m. #72
You know what would make more sense to me? If in oil mode, getting hit with a fireball set Hakan on fire and slowly drained his health. If that EX move SERIOUSLY lets fireballs just pass right through him... wow. That's ridiculous.
Posted by Dasvanu on March 15, 2010 at 3:43 p.m. #73
Expecting a more balanced game is not asking for everyone to play the same way.
The fact that there are 5-5 matchups between completely different characters proves that it's possible.
Posted by Ryuk on March 15, 2010 at 3:44 p.m. #74
Nice to see God of War guy beating bully xD
Posted by Guile on March 15, 2010 at 3:45 p.m. #75
oh ok, im going off old news then (the vegas build opinons)
ive heard various rumors of improvemeents though. Didnt Vega get a new overhead and faster rolling flash for example?
so is Vega's new ultra really shaping up worse?
Posted by yes4me on March 15, 2010 at 3:45 p.m. #76
All that is left for me to wait is PC...
Posted by FistOfLambda on March 15, 2010 at 3:45 p.m. #77
@NissanZaxima
That's just it though, there's no such game yet and like i said, the perfect balanced would be a 5-5 for every match-ups which i don't expect nor want. The closest one I've played was sf4, which is why I want to make suggestions to make ssf4 better. The reason why I even said all that is because if there's a developer who can create a solid balanced game, it's capcom (after i've seen what they achieved with sf4). They have that potential. You obviously don't care because you're probably too scrubby to have the tiers matter to you but as for people who actually go to good tournaments it can matter a lot. At least make some point if you wanna disagree scrub.
Posted by Guile on March 15, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. #78
sorry
*is Vega's new ultra not shaping up to be better than his first SO FAR?
Posted by MIRACLEfool on March 15, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. #79
@#72
If that happened then Hakan would definitely be the most unused character possible especially since their are atleast a 7:3 ratio of fireball spammers, on line, also it's olive oil, in other words not really flammable
Posted by NissanZaxima on March 15, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. #80
if anyyone in their right mind believes that Capcom can make a street fighter game with nothing but 5-5 matchups without having one character cloned 30 times and having the exact same properties.... is just.... wow really?
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 3:50 p.m. #81
Gen ,
The general mechanics are the biggest problem ,if there was a general game mechanic that could be utilize for advance play(like third strike parry system) the game could in theory even out but focus attacks are too character specific with some characters having better versions than others and also the damage reduction system works for those who already hit the hardest further nerfing the damage output of those who need to depend on getting in more hits .
Damage reduction needs to be based on the summation of damage of the first two special move hits of any combo so the damage reduction would be higher if the person first two special move hits are very powerful while not affecting lesser damaging moves the same way.
Posted by MIRACLEfool on March 15, 2010 at 3:52 p.m. #82
@#72 (once more)
oh and again, if you truly want logic in this game than any one in this game that uses fireballs than can literally light anyone else on fire who is wearing clothes preferably those of thread
Posted by Makavelo on March 15, 2010 at 3:56 p.m. #83
@areyouken #20 & @Speedwagon #58
True.
Honda has little to no options against Sagat this matchup its really hard but not impossible it all depends on who has a stronger mental game, Honda needs to be very smart in this matchup and the only thing Sagat has to do is run throw fireballs and then run some more, i really think the headbutt at least the EX version or the LP should go through fireballs but i dont thikn thats gonna happen
Posted by Gamogo on March 15, 2010 at 3:56 p.m. #84
@58. How about his super? Honda's super goes through fireballs clean, at full screen, on reaction, for HUGE damage.
Honda's Super is invaluable in matches against ball throwers.
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 4:07 p.m. #85
One big problem in this game are attributes deficiencies ,some characters have all the options while others have none ,this game sf4 is not balance nor is it even close to that fact.
A highly advantageous character like sagat or ryu will always have everything in their favor once the player learn all their characters tricks.
Too many characters in this game cannot even land a full ultra while others have 3 and more easy fuking set-ups including trades and you do not want to trade with sagat the damage is enormous.
Options is what makes a game fun and allows characters to even out and this game lacks options for the majority of the cast ,that's why a character like SAGAT is the best character in the game because the majority of characters are so mediocre in how they play.
Posted by Telvanni on March 15, 2010 at 4:09 p.m. #86
@Guile
Reports of Vega are all over the map. Aside from the overhead, he seems to be the same from some players. I heard that he had the faster rolls, but recent builds are saying he doesn't.
The second Ultra is a slide that connects low, but without any confirmation of it being able to combo, it sounds like a worse version of his Bloody High Claw.
Guess we'll just have to wait for more info, but look at the bright side. Maybe Guile will get better damage on his normals.
Posted by bwinches on March 15, 2010 at 4:13 p.m. #87
Slash5150 posted a video sometime ago on YouTube from the Las Vegas fight-club thingy with one video featuring Gen vs. Cody. I realize this wasn't the final build of the game, but perhaps Gen experts can confirm if the wall-dive is faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USAQwE...
Posted by akumous on March 15, 2010 at 4:14 p.m. #88
This is one of the best articles I read on here thus far. Seth, has my respect because he shares my philosophies in respects of the chart placement or ranking system. Basically, as Seth says, it doesn't matters who you pick because by the end of the day is the player with the best skills wins not the character.
Posted by uspsbluetrain on March 15, 2010 at 4:19 p.m. #89
Wow, I read way too many comments and am now more dumb for the trouble....Jokes on me I guess (no offense to people on Seth's side)
Posted by Wonsang on March 15, 2010 at 4:23 p.m. #90
Seth seems a little annoyed here and understandably so. He and everyone else at Capcom USA/JPN have put a lot of work into SSF4 and it kind of sucks to have people jump to conclusions like that.
Although I am dying to know what Dudley/Ibuki/Makoto will be like...mustn't...annoy...Seth...
Posted by ricefarmer on March 15, 2010 at 4:26 p.m. #91
hey complain about a character being weak? capcom will nerf him/her!
Posted by Adam_Zapple on March 15, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. #92
@84
Honda's Super does go through fireballs but in a uphill battle Honda will constantly be using meter and will likely never build a Super.
Invincibility at start-up with EX headbutt would be good.
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. #93
88 ,
nice fantasies you got , player skill?
let me draw up an analogy for you seth lovers ,two guys (seth ,akumous) in a shooting game have only one weapon on a flat map with no cover ,seth has a one shot kill sniper while akumous has a mini hand gun that takes half a clip to kill ...both you guys start the match from a distance ,now who has the advantages in this shoot out?
player skill , regardless of skill you are restrained by the weapons you are provided with so when a guy has ryu/sagat level options and takes on e.honda/guile with little options your being "BASIC MINDED" to think the results are purely based on skill.
Think of it this way ,characters like gen ,vega and e.honda and the majority of sf4 cast excluding the top 7 characters , you do not see winning tourneys so does that mean those playing that those characters have less skill than those who play ryu ,sagat ,balrog ,rufus and akuma?
Posted by spanish_ninja on March 15, 2010 at 4:35 p.m. #94
Seth sounds really proud of what he is doing and you can tell by what he said that he really wants everyone to understand that its just a f**king game and everyone should be happy that there are actually making it.
(think about it.......you should be happy)
Posted by KDash on March 15, 2010 at 4:38 p.m. #95
"Rank-O-Tron 3000!! I command you, tell me how good i am!!!"
haha, The japanese at least have one part right. Pick a character and stick with them, through the easy and the impossible match ups.
No one(character not player) is unbeatable. And i am not counting the broken anime fighters or smash or etc.
Posted by PhinnyCupcakes on March 15, 2010 at 4:41 p.m. #96
Seth's matchup vs whiners is 9 - 1. He needs to be nerfed.
Posted by Telvanni on March 15, 2010 at 4:42 p.m. #97
@92
Honda's Sumo Splash goes through fireballs. It isn't safe on block, but if you anticipate fireballs you can catch them in the recovery frames.
Posted by fresco4eva on March 15, 2010 at 4:52 p.m. #98
@ pysco #39
my thoughts exactly.... especially me being a blanka player, how can he say that this game is the best balanced game on the market when i hit dhalsim or abel with a blanka ball they can hit me back with either fp (dhalsim), or ultra (abel).... fcuk outta here wit dat sh!t son.....
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 15, 2010 at 4:54 p.m. #99
Seth is annoyed EVERYTIME someone asks about Guile i swear ahahahah, then he goes and says that's who he used to play in WW.
Along with hitbox changes, i really hope his normals are more generous with startup and recovery too, screw the ultra(even though i'll select it as there's less chance to botch the motion and far more lenient}
Combo into ultra isn't what made Guile bad in this game. Look at how his normals and specials act in this game and compare it to any other, SCREW the ultra. And incase someone is going to mention damage, he does near the exact same damage in CvsS2 and yet he was one of the best characters because all of his moves did what they were supposed to do.
Combo ability makes up for weaker single hit damage, ask ryu.
Posted by Akki on March 15, 2010 at 4:56 p.m. #100
#93 good thing this isn't a shooter then. Even that would take some skill not much but what if he couldn't snipe?
Posted by Dash on March 15, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. #101
Look at it from this perspective. Even if the game where balanced and every character took the same amount of damage on a kick ,punch, throw, and special move. Would that make a balance game? Would that make a good game. Would this make people happy? How would you feel about the characters then? You still will have others who are better than you at the game with all of the above so calm down. It would just be another complaint that every move does the same amount of damage so asking for a game to be perfectly balanced is not being reasonable balance aint the focus.
Tweaks, buffs and nerfs and utilizing your arsenal are whats really important. Its a determining factor to any match not the balance. Ive seen low rank characters in the game put hands on Sagats, Ryu's and other top tier characters using low tier guys. It all comes down to SKILL. Understanding the mechanics of the game in and out all fall under skill not just winning some matches. Thats just experience(which is good)but anybody can get that just play long enough, but skill is something people are born with some have it others don't. Some have to but mad time into the games others pick it up just like that. The character you pick does not make you good its the person controlling the character that may not be good and may need more work. The problem lies between the controller and the couch/bed/chair. You just want your fav. character to be the best so you say things like "man if he had this and that this would make him better", but you still pick him because why? There's got to be another way to utilize him to overcome this flaw right? And its a challenge to find a workarond and reap the reward. If a character had a move but then its been taken away then I can understand because you get use to having the move so I fell ya on that but its not the end of the word. Every character will not be the same some will be stronger than others. Everybody cant be the strong character somebody has to be in between. What you do with the character make the difference. Some of you are already defeat and the game has not come out yet because you exploit and broadcast your characters weaknessness instead give him a alternative solution and not a dead end.
Posted by RisingStar on March 15, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. #102
They should let him keep mk too hands and give him chain combos then leave him alone...
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 5 p.m. #103
I swear a lot of you guy are children ,capcom is providing you with a product ,you have the right to demand a level of quality from that product being the buyer/consumer of that product.
spanish_ninja why should i be happy their even making a game idiot ,how else will capcom make money if they don't make games idiot. what you need to do spanish_ninja is be grateful your parents will even buy this game for you 'cause i doubt you have your own money.
Posted by ZeroShift on March 15, 2010 at 5 p.m. #104
Sonic hurricane not being combo-able sucks but in a way it's still sort of pleasing to know: His still going to be the character not used by most players and so he still has that WOW factor when he does decide to kick BUTT. ie. He will keep that "I won with a crap character haha" sort of attitude.
Need to check on the range of it, it could be counter-hadokenable :D ( from a good distance)
Posted by tommyjesus on March 15, 2010 at 5:10 p.m. #105
spanish_ninja, you're a moron.
we should be happy they're actually make a game? that's like saying you're gonna give a bj to the workers at mcdonald's cause you're blessed that they are actually making you a big mac. we're giving them money for a product; it's a reciprocal relationship. you must be under 12 years old or retarded.
also, i'm glad they are giving guile some hitbox changes; i wonder if this will also change his FLASH KICK which has been largely ignored but was entirely useless in the game. i don't care about the ultra, if you make his normals and ultras as they should be, he'll be competitive.
Posted by tommyjesus on March 15, 2010 at 5:12 p.m. #106
i mean up guile's specials (as in fk), not ultras. :P
Posted by areyouken on March 15, 2010 at 5:13 p.m. #107
@29
Honda has no moves that are invincible, much less through the fireball. Except his Super and Ultra.
Honda will never ever build a Super Meter because he absolutely needs the EX Headbutt to use an anti-air. The EX-Headbutt is actually like the original SF2 Headbutt in priority. It does move faster. Honda used to be able to atleast trade his headbutt (against virtually every character) as an anti-air. This was more than fair, because although Honda did more damage, he actually gets hit and loses life. He also could never combo (of any kind) off that.
The Ultra Headbutt is useless as an anti-fireball because it too many startup frames. At any distance you can use the Ultra Headbutt to punish a fireball, you can also just safely jump over with a roundhouse. Considering a single Honda combo does 340+ damage (and without an EX), there's no real need for the Ultra then. All the Ultra is for, reliably, is an anti-air.
That leaves Sagat the master of the "keep away" with Honda. Honda has no way to get through a defensive Sagat... at all. Sagat even out air kicks Honda. You just need to hope that the opposing Sagat makes a mistake so you can get in. Atleast Zangief can get in, even if it is difficult. For Honda, there is literally zero ways to get in a well played Sagat.
I main Zangief, Honda, and Sagat. I know exactly what works and what doesn't. And I exploit it fully too. It's amazingly easy to keep Honda out with Sagat.
Because of the lariat right now, Zangief vs Sagat is really a 4-6. As much as I like Zangief, that lariat is way broken. I'm 100% sure in Seth's example, the Zangief player abused that "exploit". I know I do against Sagat. You just need to mix-it up to not be predictable and avoid Tiger Uppercuts wakeups. If and when Sagat whiffs a TU, it's a free Double German, and you can play the mixup game all over again. Zangief vs Sagat, right now, just isn't that terrible.
All Honda needs is his jab headbutt to go through fireballs, like HDR. That would be all it takes to makes it a 4-6 instead of the 7-3 it is now.
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 5:15 p.m. #108
A game does not need all characters to do the same amount of damage and have the same moves for balancing purposes ,do you guys like being led astray by a man(seth) who serves only capcom interests?
A game that is close to the same health theory is TEKEN ,what street fighter needs is balancing as in evening out characters depending on their attributes ,if a character has low damage output he must either have high health or combo ability to work with and that is what balances out characters ..viable options is what makes the game fair ,if i cannot do this then i should be able to do that but in sf4 all females have crap health regardless of character specific abilities ,combo ability only helps those who individual hits do great damage already ,come back ability (ultras) are held by a select few with many not having a real ability to connect full ultra while the select few have a hundred ways including trades.
Posted by Zaruka on March 15, 2010 at 5:27 p.m. #109
hey but we got a faster oga with seems like we can even build meter with mk itno hands and by reports of mr wizard a faster oga. should have made a combo where gen just grab his chest and died.
becuse that what they are trying to do it seem.
yea lets give a character who in alpha 3 was mid teir but had a lots of tools and lets give him barely anything he can do in the new game.
but hey faster oga dude wooo
anyway im just worried that i have not heard any of good news for my character and been nerfs and bull crap pr spin.
Posted by Pusha_T on March 15, 2010 at 5:31 p.m. #110
It baffles me that people can complain so much without even getting to play the game, 90% of the things we realise come from when we actually buy the game and play. All this speculation and whining is pointless.
already i can see comments on this page from pple with conflicting opinions on guile.
Lets buy the game before we judge.
even if u think Guile is crap there are probably others that think hes just fine.
Posted by irrenmann on March 15, 2010 at 5:40 p.m. #111
@109
MANDINGO: "do you guys like being led astray by a man(seth) who serves only capcom interests?"
How do Capcom's interests and yours differ? You are a player of their game. They want you to be a player of their game. Where exactly is he "leading" us other than to buy the product, which we are obviously going to do anyway?
Posted by Megatonbeef on March 15, 2010 at 5:50 p.m. #112
It's always the case with new fighting games, the players who cry foul over little thing are always louder than the rest of us who realize you have to play something before you make a decision.
Posted by ogerrob1487 on March 15, 2010 at 6 p.m. #113
Those of you who think that you can achieve good character diversity spread out over 30 characters and still have perfect balance in all matchups can show me its possible.
http://mugen.en.softonic.com/
Make your own game and try it out! Id love to play it. Otherwise, have fun! Nobody is forcing you to play Street Fighter. If it really irritates you that much DONT PLAY IT. Capcom isnt trying to attack you personally. If you dont agree with them DONT BUY IT. Thats the point of a free capitalist society right?
Posted by MadnessFamilyguile on March 15, 2010 at 6:03 p.m. #114
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x...
Hmm not sure if i like the sound of that
Posted by kurokiba on March 15, 2010 at 6:04 p.m. #115
Ogerrob, i wanna have your babies! you make more sense than any of these scrubs/noobs/lil kids!
Posted by SAMURAI on March 15, 2010 at 6:04 p.m. #116
Seth can tell stories about bullies all day, the game just isn't balanced.
I'm a Dan/Ryu player and i NEVER had a easy fight against a Sagat or Zangief. Every scrub can inflict massive damage with Sagat or Zangief, you don't have to be skilled.
Posted by areyouken on March 15, 2010 at 6:05 p.m. #117
@97
Sumo Splash does NOT go through fireballs. It goes through fireballs like a jump goes through a fireball. It's especially useless against a high Tiger Shot, which is the bane of E. Honda. Do you even play Honda?
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 6:06 p.m. #118
irrenmann
you can look at it in any self deceiving way you want.
what was the topic seth was on about ,that should give you your answer.
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 6:15 p.m. #119
Megatonbeef
it's not a new fighting game it's a second installment from a long running title and when the game come out it will be too late for proper changes.it's funny how those who are against people who ask and try to get as much quality as possible from a product are the ones who still benefit from such actions.
FDA loath you type of people while the drug companies love your "any standard is good enough " and "it's all right when the drug comes out and kill 100 people then we will know if it is a good drug or not" mentality,just wait and see if what your buying is garbage after the money is spent.
Posted by Zaruka on March 15, 2010 at 6:21 p.m. #120
the way im saying the best poke/ combo gen had on the ground was mk into hands with reports that he may not even be able to go in hands from a mk and that mr wizard could not do chains. I just want a good block string for gen where i can combo into like other characters in my mantis style.
the crane style the way it is works really well, but it funny his crane style got more combo although air combos ( which makes it worst) then his mantis style. just look up videos for alpha 3 gen and you can see he would improve greatly if he had his chains. Now he wont be as good as alpha because in alpha he could use all his supers but it would be a improvement and gen would not need mk into hands.
Posted by JerseyFame on March 15, 2010 at 6:25 p.m. #121
So basically...Guile is the same but improved to what he should have already been.
So while the other characters became better, guile just made it to normal?
Thats basically what Seth is saying right?
Posted by werewolfgold on March 15, 2010 at 6:25 p.m. #122
RANK-O-TRON 3000!!!!!!!
But, anyway, maybe everybody's missing some kind of special secret that makes Gen god-tier... You never know...
Posted by Psycho on March 15, 2010 at 6:27 p.m. #123
Maybe Vega can combo his new ultra after an EX-scarlet terror since he can juggle another EX-scarlet terror after it, or maybe after down+forward HK because he can follow up a juggle with low sweep or a normal scarlet terror.
Well I think think Vega can be a lot better in this game if he gets a better anti air and now the he can keep his claw a bit longer he'll have the ability to keep the enemy away, also a faster crystal roll will come in handy.
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on March 15, 2010 at 6:33 p.m. #124
thanks seth...it happens that i just rented half-blood prince today, so dumbledore is killed...thanks
Posted by TheRealDiegoUmejuarez on March 15, 2010 at 6:39 p.m. #125
(^^sorry about that)
@93 lol thats the smartest thing i have read all day thank u
Posted by zUkUu on March 15, 2010 at 6:42 p.m. #126
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USAQwE...
mhhh the jump arc also got nerfed (he jumps longer and higher). the wall dive just theems nearly the same. dunno how will that make up for mk - hands.
Posted by zUkUu on March 15, 2010 at 6:43 p.m. #127
and i know its not the final build as mentioned by someone else. but the announcement bout the new wall dive was made before.
Posted by Psycho on March 15, 2010 at 6:46 p.m. #128
@ 128 WHAAAT MORE NERFS?
Posted by MANDINGO on March 15, 2010 at 7:01 p.m. #129
Gen: Only nerfs found so far, no chain combos, no Standing Medium Kick, Cancel into Hands at all. EX-Wall Dive lost some invincibility.
Posted by PainKiller on March 15, 2010 at 7:04 p.m. #130
@108
You don't know a thing about zangief versus sagat
a good sagat will:
build enough meter for a fadc before you even touch him,and he will backdash after a fadc. No crouch forward, jump, well timed non ex green hand (rofl) will get you near him, all good sagats I play versus just knows you can suplex him out of a TU fadc(of course you can ex green hand him if he back dash, but he can grab or jump after it's 50/50 after a fadc for sagat anyway) and if you have the guts to burn a ex green hand after dodging 20 fireballs and he blocks you are dead, a smart sagat will just roundhouse the **** out of you, because ? unless you think you can out poke a sagat with standing jab or have the pleasure of seeing your ex green hand wifing the knockdown hit because he was roundhousing the air since he knows he can out poke even your standing strong and your green hand might whiff while doing so, yeah sagat is 4/6 right, you can't reversal TU after the first lariat hit? you gonna try crouch roundhouse gief and get hit by the lariat (you know this game have auto block and uppercut shortcut right? spam <><><><>< punch and watch gief crying that he lariat you)....(I'd agree with you if reversals weren't that easily mashable in sf4)
on wake up versus a good sagat you have really low options, since he will mash TU versus fierce cross up > low > kara thown or fadc, and back fadc out of it or hit you, knee > suplex etc...
Posted by Eventscrubs on March 15, 2010 at 7:10 p.m. #131
The million dollar question:
How many people on *EVENTHUBS* will ever be affected by a tier-list?
Your Guile probably isn't losing to Sagat/Ryu because they're better characters (although they obviously are). Your Guile is probably losing because you're a scrub.
Stop complaining and just have fun. Chances are you're a few months away from quitting, anyways.
Posted by Psycho on March 15, 2010 at 7:12 p.m. #132
This is the real Gen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24hpzA...
Posted by PhinnyCupcakes on March 15, 2010 at 7:18 p.m. #133
HEY EVENTHUBS. MAKE THE TITLE OF THIS ARTICLE SOMETHING MORE FITTING TO THE BODY, LIKE "Seth wants people to stop whining. Everything will be okay"
Posted by mikoal on March 15, 2010 at 7:32 p.m. #134
naw i disagree what that.
I mean, sure those are the rankings at elite levels, but in casual levels there are scrubs out there that can literally not try and demolish someone who is at a disadvantage.
The example with the bully and the gief guy, the gief guy must really know the match and is far more experienced than the bully, a poor example killian.
Posted by brujometal on March 15, 2010 at 7:39 p.m. #135
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ9Kxf...
Posted by Gunga on March 15, 2010 at 7:58 p.m. #136
To bad they nerfed the announcer :( "Well thats gotta suck" good lols.... good lols.
Posted by chickenwings on March 15, 2010 at 7:59 p.m. #137
@133
With sites like eventhubs srk and random youtube videos ur average player is ALOT better compared to a player in the 90s, now a player can punch up a site and get all the info he wants on combos matchups frame data etc. Ur average ryu/sagat CAN fadc ultra and they understand the ranges of attacks and whether its safe or not(a quick look at a forum and u can learn it, it doesnt take months of time). So the tier list DOES effect ur average player here since ur average player WILL read the sites and knows those basics/matchups that contribute to the placement of said characters on the tier list. So YES the tiers matter, unless u basicly just rented the game and dont care and thats a different story all together.
Posted by sectionz on March 15, 2010 at 8:09 p.m. #138
MANDINGO im wit u man!Yes were going to buy the game regardless but still we want some more freakin options for some of the weaker characters. Yes it comes down to skill but what about players wit skill who want some better options? I love sf4 as much as the next but it aint rocket science to see that weaker tiers (like them or not they hold weight) need buffs more then higher tiers. Plus buffs and nerfs aint nothing new go back and play any old sf game the new versions always add them. Its easy give weaker tiers some help not counter ultras lol. Honda needs his ex-headbutt to go through fireballs! Why can blanka do it and not honda? Why does chuns new ultra easy to combo into(from what i hear) and not gulie?
Posted by deteknician on March 15, 2010 at 8:15 p.m. #139
"adon is pretty useless w/o a proper wall dive" so true.
I like how they design a character to punish badly thrown fireballs and then they make him actually NOT do that. That's like giving Gief no range on his command throws.
Posted by Shantotto on March 15, 2010 at 8:31 p.m. #140
There will NEVER be a 100% balanced fighting game... EVER! Show me one if there is. SF4 actually isn't as bad as people say. SF 3s/Blazblue/Smash/CvS2/MvC2 etc. All have bigger gaps from lowest character to the highest character than SF4.
Posted by Shantotto on March 15, 2010 at 9:05 p.m. #141
I took about 5 mins to look at the tier list of 3rd Strike, SF4 and HD Remix(from this website) and average out the best character and the worst character's matchups and compare.
SF 3rd strike
Chun Li - 6.8333
Sean - 2.9444
~3.8889 difference
SF 4
Sagat - 6.1667
Dan - 3.8750
~2.2917 difference
SF2HD
Balrog - 5.6000
Zangief - 3.9333
~1.6667 difference
SF4 is more balanced than 3S but HD remix is actually more balanced than both (If you are complaining about Sagat being over powered go look at Chun Li in 3rd strike lol).
But remember, that's all number data based on matchups if players are the same skill blah blah. Take this as however you want i really don't care. just thought I'd point it out
Posted by Cauptain on March 15, 2010 at 9:46 p.m. #142
Is not possible, another day and another bull.s.h.i.t news from "Donkey Killian".
SSFIV, the most balanced game ever from CRAPCOM?? Really??
This guy have problems, Ono Kinderegg have most problems too.
The japanese team hate Guile. It´s a true war: USA vs JAP.
Do you think I'm kidding?
Here they put the best American char, BALROG...BLACK!
Ken is a joke, the Gay Blondie (see Alpha series ... long hair, ridiculous)
Guile is the incarnation of evil ... the American flag on his arm, military (atomic bomb on Hiroshima, remember) spiky hair, all the Japanese dream of being. Simply different from his people.
It would be more honorable on the part of CRAPCOM just assume that. I think people understand.
And if you think I'm crazy, seeing as Killian is stressed when asked about Guile. He, being American, should be ashamed at making a fool are you doing about SSFIV.
This is the way that Japan found to cheat Americans. They know that it hurts the American pride.
Posted by CL93 on March 15, 2010 at 9:56 p.m. #143
i still wanna know why the hell is seth SO WEAK? the first time i got the game, i couldnt beat the guy for weeks! and when you unlock him and get to use him, his attacks take away low damage and his STAMINA is horrible! (750). Come on wtf like 2 spinning piledrivers from zangief and he's already dead!
And the old school favorite Guile still hasnt gotten the benefits he deserves; they shouldve at least made the sonic hurricane larger, or a move that surrounds him and that hits from the front and back just like in MvC2.
Posted by Meee on March 15, 2010 at 9:59 p.m. #144
#1 Your a moron That was about the only thing Gen actually did that was tricky to block now they are faster its a good improvement. Also Seth, hats off to you, it must be really annoying to have to hear a bunch of people complaining about a game that hasn't even come out yet. I swear this new generation of players love to talk about things as if it even applied to them. Most people shouldn't even care about the tier list because of there pathetic skill level and nothing pisses me off more than using a tier as an excuse. Yes some matches suck and fell next to impossible to win but learning a matchup is one of the most vital keys to any victory in just about any fighting game.
Again thank you Seth and all of capcom for making another street fighter. I expect great things from the next installment and cant wait to actually get the chance to play
Posted by Telvanni on March 15, 2010 at 10 p.m. #145
@126
Even though it wasn't in that video, the arc changes depending on your stance. From what I've heard at least.
If it does, that would be a perfect example of this thread. Then again, if it doesn't, that'd also be a perfect example of this thread. ;)
PS: Did you see that Oga? That looked tasty.
Posted by Telvanni on March 15, 2010 at 10:29 p.m. #146
@117
Not really. I play him as a side character like every other character. EX Sumo Splash has start up invincibility, so yeah. It does go through fireballs. Even the high ones. Depends on timing. Low is a definite yes. High is a bit strict.
Posted by FistOfLambda on March 15, 2010 at 10:36 p.m. #147
@Cauptain
Aside your horrid skill @ English, I can kinda see that. I'm starting to think the developers for sf4 made Guile shi.tty on purpose because they know how big of a fan-base Guile has in the U.S, and for them to keep ignoring American fans' righteous call at buffing him up makes it very clear that they hate Guile. They just can't stand his American badassness.
Posted by Guile on March 15, 2010 at 10:54 p.m. #148
Guile is one of the most popular characters tier independently speaking. Most other characters wouldnt sustain his sort of popularity while being so damn uncompetitive (as he currently is)
The fact that hes not coompetitive detracts from his popularity though due to tier whoring. This sort of thing often happens with everybody almost always. Just look at Ryu. If he is so important to the series, why didnt people care that much about him in 3s?
Balrog - people didnt care about him early or prior to SF4 release, but then they learned one of the easiest uultra setups and whoosh he is hot stuff
Given that, imagine Guile WAS high tier. He would be very popular, u can bet cuz then u'd automaticaly get tier whorers in addition to the fanbase he has regardless of his ranking. And u can also bet a lot of attention would detract from Ryu and Sagat because u'd have another serious honorable warrior sort of personality at the top but this time american. It wouldnt be just some goofball American like Rufus or blockhead like Balrog who don threaten that eastern "we're the only honorable warrior" image they might be going for but someone who competes for that same image and takes some of it away from the eastern fighters.
Its just a sketchy conspiracy theory, but would explain a lot lol
Posted by kurokiba on March 16, 2010 at 12:20 a.m. #149
are you guys fuktarded? Balrog has always been a fan favorite! hes always been great! And if I hear 1 more guy complaining about Guile being too weak, when I know plenty of strong Guile players. If you think hes weak dont use him! And if you think America is underappreciated in comparison to the Eastern characters just look @ the top 5:
1) Sagat 2) Ryu(japan) 3)Akuma (japan) 4)Balrog (USA) 5) Rufus (USA).... looks pretty even to me.
Posted by Eventscrubs on March 16, 2010 at 12:30 a.m. #150
Chicken Wing @ 138
Uh, no. Tier-lists are created based on matchups. Those matchup numbers assume that the players of both characters are 100% knowledgeable on the matchup -- they know EVERYTHING there is to know about the match. In fact, they say the tier list uses the hypothetical 'perfect player' as its basis.
Do you really think the average player who finds some frame data on the internet knows matchups perfectly? It's possible, sure. But let's be real... having an alright understanding of frame data, being able to FADC ultra (LOL) and knowing what is safe and unsafe does not make you a good player. It damn sure doesn't make you the type of player that the tier list is designed for.
The tier list will never, ever matter to you (well, maybe one day). Until you are a MASTER of you character, the tier list will just be your crutch.
Posted by ScytheWP on March 16, 2010 at 12:34 a.m. #151
@35
Welcome to the Internet
Posted by Ender on March 16, 2010 at 12:45 a.m. #152
@Everyone who says wait for the game 2 come out.
Answer the following be4 posting plz.
Do you play any low tier characters?
Have you tried playing a so called skilled Rufus with Gen, Guile,El Fuerte or Vega?(If you haven't then give it a try and play first 2 ten. If you do play the first to ten, i'm sorry to have caused you maybe .01 percent of the stress i have dealt while playing low tier from the day the game came out)
If you have a dollar while everyone as hundreds and one of those people with the hundred gives you 1 dollar your situation is now better than it was before is it not?
Do you understand that Dan with his 1 new added ultra, will now be upper mid-tier or at least not trash anymore?
Do you realize Rufus as more than 4 ways of landing Ultra without meter and as the second highest stamina in sf4 and just got a new ultra that will destroy you if you jump in on him?
Seth is saying "In this list of Super Street Fighter 4 changes: no chain combos, no Standing Medium Kick, Cancel into Hands at all, ex-Wall Dive lost some invincibility.Gen only saw nerfs, what gives? Seth Killian: He has a few new bits but probably the best of them is the much faster wall-dives." which the wall dive is still unsafe in many ways plus no one complained about it being slow to begin with is a major plus over the things that were removed is pretty lame.
The statement "Seth Killian:Difference in character strength is part of the nature of a SF game. It's something we don't try to avoid. Ultimately, in the current ranking charts, there are a few mismatches, but for the most part I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any other competitive fighting game with a closer balance across all the characters." really means yes we know the game is unbalanced and we designed it that way =D.
Seth saying" you would be hard-pressed to find other competitive fighting game closer balance across all the character" doesn't mean you wouldn't find one at all. It just means it would take some time. This is another seth/capcom attempt to dodge hard facts that ssf4 is being designed unbalanced because Posted by Shantotto on March 15, 2010 at 9:05 p.m. #142 already found a game better balanced game than sf4 in 5 mins on this site eventhubs =D. (I'm not saying we should all play SF2HD but *hi* capcom you guys already made a better balanced game all we ask is do it again; why waste time nerfing low tier instead of adding new things to the game) So the last question here is why is capcom trying to act like they are having a hard time balancing when they are having a harder time lying?
If you have answered these questions and you still believe that people are just being trolls, whiners, and scrubs at life about the situation with characters designed 2 perform poorly on purpose; Then you sir have just receive your first sign that there is a high chance that you are *U*KING Retard. Real talk.
I'm also known as Reggie Rob (I main Gen)
Posted by Telvanni on March 16, 2010 at 1 a.m. #153
@Ender
Yeah. I main Vega, but that Rufus example makes me sad. I'd be lucky to win 3 of the 10. He's one of my worse matchups in the game. I just don't know what the hell to do in it.
"He has a few new bits but probably the best of them is the much faster wall-dives." which the wall dive is still unsafe in many ways plus no one complained about it being slow to begin with is a major plus over the things that were removed is pretty lame."
Did it ever occur to you, that maybe the recovery time for the Wall Dive is also faster? During the match video, EX was definitely safe, and being able to Gekiro off of it with that speed, means that using it to punish isn't all that hard to reason with.
In other words... Wait till the game comes out.
In regards to the tiers, someone's always going to be low tier.
Final Note: Unless Vega gets a way to combo into his Ultra, or his rolls are sped up (like rumor has it) he's going to be bottom tier. And by bottom tier, I mean Rock Bottom.
Posted by Ender on March 16, 2010 at 1:06 a.m. #154
Sorry if these comments make game creation unpleasant but playing the game with my favorite character Gen, Vega etc as been unpleasant.
Btw why was Gen's mantis jump changed? After i saw that i punched a hole in the wall. I hope that wasn't the final version of the game.
Posted by Telvanni on March 16, 2010 at 1:23 a.m. #155
Personally, anything that makes Gen have more variety to him is a good thing in my book. Rarely do I see a Gen player use the Crane style for anything besides the c.LK and the occassional Off the Wall.
People are acting like all Gen has is the MK-Hands. If that -is- all he has, then he sounds.. boring to play as. I'd be happy Capcom is giving him more options. Who knows what the hell he's going to play like in SSFIV. At least have hope that your character is going to get something new.
Even I have hope for Vega.
Posted by Ender on March 16, 2010 at 1:33 a.m. #156
@ Telvanni
Did it ever occur to you, that the wall dive (oga) is already safe in some situations in sf4 and unsafe in others? Cuz it is and like i said no one complained about the oga so the point u r trying 2 make is very weak.
The whole reason capcom lets people play test it is so the players can comment on how things work and etc. Look at the way sf4 was when it first was being play tested; the game moved soooOOOOoooooo slow; people spoke up and things got changed so that is why we r speaking up be4 we hear "No one really complained that gen was this bad and we are sorry we missed out on Gen's much needed improvements but there are 35 characters in the game surely you can find another character to play with if Gen doesn't suit you?" when this can be avoided with valid points as to why change is needed.
In other words, take your own advice and wait for the game to come out.Plz stop with your weak points cuz you know you wouldn't mind hearing great news of buffs on vega like the buffs on chun li.
In regards to the tiers, i believe everyone can agree i rather be using a low tier character with options than one without.
Posted by Telvanni on March 16, 2010 at 3:39 a.m. #157
@Ender: (I like names. <_<)
Not really, no. But what if it's safe in more situations now? The point I was trying to make is the Oga is another option that Gen didn't have before that allows for Crane Style Buffs. Which is a good thing. A great thing. A thing that makes him stop being the "Gotta land Hands to stand a chance" that he is now.
"In regards to the tiers, i believe everyone can agree i rather be using a low tier character with options than one without."
But that's exactly my point. Gen as it stands now is a one trick pony. The best thing he has is the MK - EX Hands. Don't you want more options than just the Hands?
Posted by catscratch on March 16, 2010 at 4:04 a.m. #158
Lame. You're removing the best BnB combo in the game and giving Gen what in return, exactly? Wall dive shenanigans?
Gen's offense keys off his footsies, and MK Hands was his main footsies tool. So unless he has another tool at his disposal that can replace MK Hands in the same situation - say, if you can chain or link MK into something that you can THEN cancel into hands - he'll be forced to key his offense off a really weak footsies game. Which in turn means that he'll be bottom tier.
I've always advocated waiting for the actual game before we pile on the baseless speculation, but honestly... it's getting hard to hold out too much hope. Many well-known Gen players are considering switching (like yeb) and if that doesn't tell you anything, you should probably post less and read more.
But... We'll see.
Posted by joker101 on March 16, 2010 at 4:28 a.m. #159
All of you are cakes.
Posted by DeathBloodNinja on March 16, 2010 at 7:26 a.m. #160
Definite cakes. Just wait for the game! I PREFER lower tier characters, it's way more satisfying when you win, and it forces you to be more creative! Every time I see a Guile player online, I'm like "Hell yeah! Go for it!"
I play Abel and Gouken, for the record.
Posted by Shadaloo on March 16, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. #161
Skill is the game. Not just the matchup.
Posted by tortoos on March 16, 2010 at 11:03 a.m. #162
Look, This is the way I see it personally. Feel free to disagree with me if you want. It seems like from what we've heard, a lot of characters seem to be getting nerfs they don't even need. I'm going to reserve my judgement till I get my hands on the game, but hearing only nerfs for a character like gen is just sad. I'm going to state the obvious here. Sagat is still probably going to be horribly overpowered once again, and now that ken has even more invulnerability frames on his shoryuken I think it's probably just going to lead to more ken spam online. If you go online now, you mostly see ken/akuma/ryu/sagat. Know why? It's because these characters are stupid easy to be effective with. I agree skill has a lot to do with it, but if your opponent is going sagat and is roughly your skill level, how do you think you're going to fare as someone like zangief? I understand why capcom didn't include a parry system like in sf3. It would crush new players online and they would be viciously punished by people who know how to predict and parry moves effectively. However what I don't understand, is why fireball spam is as effective as it is. Surely more recovery time on the moves could be placed? What is more interesting to you? A fighting match up close, or a match when you fight a sagat that does nothing but spam high and low fireballs due to no recovery time on them? I rest my case.
Posted by Gen on March 16, 2010 at 11:31 a.m. #163
i keep forgetting what to do after standing mkick, oh ya, OGA!, erm...wait...
Posted by luffy165 on March 16, 2010 at 12:46 p.m. #164
I want to see some new info on Cammy!!!
Posted by Aquaman on March 16, 2010 at 5:37 p.m. #165
Vega's Flying Barcelona Attack should be faster off the wall, the pause on the wall is troublesome. And Rolling Crystal Flash MP and FP should be as fast on start up as LP version.
Posted by Remy77077 on March 17, 2010 at 4:46 a.m. #166
Hmm, 6-4 matchups means it's ok? I beg to differ! Sorry to post the same link as I did in the other article thread, but it's even more relevant here:
http://agoners.wordpress.com/2010/02/...
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