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Seth: Gen's wall dive is better, other Super Street Fighter 4 notes

Posted by Jonathan 'Catalyst' Grey • March 15, 2010 at 1:26 p.m. PDT
Seth: Gen's wall dive is better, other Super Street Fighter 4 notes Many players were upset over early reports that Gen didn't receive enough improvements in Super Street Fighter 4 to make him a better overall character.

While it appears his Standing Medium Kick into Rapid Slap combo has been removed, Capcom's Seth Killian recently visited the Unity Boards to explain some of the new things he got. He also chimed in on Guile's second Ultra, the Sonic Hurricane, and touched on general character balance.

Here's the low down.

In this list of Super Street Fighter 4 changes, Gen only saw nerfs, what gives?

Seth Killian: He has a few new bits but probably the best of them is the much faster wall-dives. They were essentially useless in Street Fighter 4 (apart from EX as escape), but now they are legit — in my opinion they're better than Adon's, and every time they hit, it's a free Ultra.

At any rate, the post you are quoting from SRK was written by MrWizard. I was there when he played Gen — hell I was the one who invited him to play. That said, it was not exactly a scientific in-depth anything (nor did Wizard suggest it was). More like they played around with the characters in training mode for a while and jotted down some impressions. Wizard would tell you exactly the same thing, but given the level of anticipation around this game, even casual comments cause (in approximately 100% of cases) widespread overreaction.

They'll be plenty of time to yell about how your favorite didn't get the same stuff as somebody else's favorite after you've actually played the game, so please just bear with us and let's all play and experiment together before we decide what's broken, unfair, etc. ok? Seem fair?

I love discussing specifics but a big part of the fun with any new Street Fighter game is exploring and learning things for yourself. When MrWizard was up here last week to play the final build, he was asking me a ton of questions about specifics, even while he was playing at the same time. I gave MrWizard exactly what I give you guys — some basic info that leads in a direction or explains some of the thinking, but I don't tell him frame data, or the exact properties of a new move, etc., because discovering things for yourself is, in my opinion, one of the best parts about these games.

In addition to discovering on your own being fun, it also leads to debate, experimentation, and people coming up with new and interesting approaches to the game. If you start getting into too many specifics too far in advance, people start making up their minds about what's good/not good before they've even touched the game, which I hope you'll agree is silly. It's almost like people think like:

"THE ULTIMATE RANKINGS CHART IS HERE: Do not bother playing the game, or even trying the following fighters, because according to the Rank-O-Tron 3000 we plug into all our games at Capcom, your favorite character sucks."

You can say this isn't a "straight answer" but just asking a question doesn't mean anybody is obligated to answer it with all the specifics you've requested. I answer the questions I can, to the degree I can. I know that's not always enough for everyone, so I'm sorry, but try and keep things in perspective. There's a LOT of good Super Street Fighter 4 info out there already, but I'm not going to spoil the fun of discovering Super Street Fighter 4 on your own, the same way I wouldn't tell you who kills Dumbledore even if you asked.

I work very hard to get the game out in front of groups of people and smart players, and they can give you their impressions. It's not my job to dissect every mystery of the game, or tell people what the rankings are supposed to be before the game is even out. That's TBD once everybody has really had a chance to play!

What, in your opinion, will make Guile players prefer the Sonic Hurricane over the Flash Explosion (Ultra 1)? What other changes did he get?

Seth Killian: You can still combo a Sonic Hurricane after a Super, but it's not a big deal and it's difficult for Guile players to save up a full super bar anyway. Overall I'd say the Sonic Hurricane is just more versatile, and it helps him with counters from mid-close range where he can struggle most with people poking at him. Currently his best option is probably just [to] Flash Kick, focus-canceled to be safe, which is expensive. Flash Explosion isn't fast enough nor does it have enough horizontal range to counter people like the Sonic Hurricane.

It's not the most dramatic new Ultra in Super Street Fighter 4, but it helps him from the range where he needs it most. The "footsies boost" (hitbox adjustments) also helps him in that same range. He's obviously strong from across the screen, so all of the changes overall are designed to give him more juice at one of his weaker ranges.

Since the producer of SSF4 specifically said that an imbalance in inherent character abilities is a desirable state of affairs (i.e. rather than characters having different strengths and weaknesses, some are just plain strong and others are just plain weak) it gives us reason to think that that's what the game will be like.

Seth Killian: [...] I'm not sure what you're quoting, but I've never heard anyone at Capcom say that, or more importantly, make some development decision based on that idea. The idea you seem to be near is the acceptance that having truly different styles of characters means some will be better and worse in different situations. This leads to some degree of character imbalance, which is what makes particular Street Fighter matches so interesting. Why do people feel the need to intentionally misrepresent what's going on with balance? Once again, Street Fighter 4 was not only one of the best-balanced games of the current fighting crop, it's actually one of (if not *the*) most balanced game in Street Fighter history. The vast majority of matches in the game are 6-4 imbalances, which just isn't insurmountable — the better player wins those.

For instance, I was cruising around Game Developers Conference with two guys from the "God of War" team that are also great Street Fighter players. We passed by an Nvidia booth running Street Fighter 4 on PC. Of course there was a crowd, with one local tough guy blowing everyone away and talking trash. One of the God of War guys decided to take him out in the 15 minutes before the next panel. He picked Zangief and squished the bully's Ryu, so the bully (who didn't even offer to let anyone else play when he lost), said "you're not going to like THIS choice" and switched to Sagat — a very tough match up for Zangief. Of course the God of War guy absolutely smashed the bully again.

What's the point here? The bully was a pretty decent Street Fighter 4 player, and obviously knew enough to know that — according to the rankings chart — he couldn't lose. Unfortunately that's not how it works: Rankings charts give you a 5-5, 6-4, etc. rating *for a 10-game set between two skilled players of equal strength*. That's a situation that virtually never actually happens — it's mostly an abstraction — but I constantly see people refer to the rankings chart as an excuse for why they lost, or some sort of iron-clad predictor of the future. Of course balance matters, and Capcom is committed to it (our results have been good so far), but match to match, it's your skills that pay the bills, not the numbers on a chart.

Comments

zUkUu said on March 15, 2010 at 1:45 p.m.

so a faster wall dive (which must be charged and is still easy to block AND punish) make up for the various other nerf? And Gen in corner = dead meat now.

"okay"

#1
ScytheWP said on March 15, 2010 at 1:47 p.m.

I like how he tears the tier list a new one...

#2
chickenwings said on March 15, 2010 at 1:48 p.m.

So having no options versus sagat/ryu makes the game interesting, i see.

#3
AceKillah said on March 15, 2010 at 1:48 p.m.

Sooooo guile cant FADC into Sonic Hurricane gj capcom -.-

#4
ScytheWP said on March 15, 2010 at 1:49 p.m.

@ 3

lol, I usually go against you...but that's funny

#5
kara said on March 15, 2010 at 1:50 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#6
rdj said on March 15, 2010 at 1:51 p.m.

#1 wow please give us more insight into ssf4 since you obviously have played it. Also read the rest of the article.

#7
sugar_shock said on March 15, 2010 at 1:52 p.m.

I'm really glad Seth took the time to answer my questions. While I'm dissapointed how Sonic Hurricane won't have much combo potential, I couldn't be happier that they fixed his hit boxes and pokes :D

#8
NJCU said on March 15, 2010 at 1:52 p.m.

He already had a free Ultra after landing a wall dive !!!...I guess he doesnt really know much about the character to begin with.

#9
kara said on March 15, 2010 at 1:53 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#10
MasterBIson said on March 15, 2010 at 1:54 p.m.

HAHAHA you made seth angry with those questions man.Good seth you tried hard but whinners will be whinners no matter what you tell them they always need an excuse and of course then again you cant say that an skilled guile player will have it easy on a less skilled sagat player its just the way it is

#11
JohnJohnson said on March 15, 2010 at 1:54 p.m.

Thank you Seth. I'm tried of hearing "Sagat and Ryu are overpowered" crap all the time. I'm glad someone gave an answer that make since.

#12
jrd8523 said on March 15, 2010 at 1:54 p.m.

Give people one of the best balanced Capcom games yet and you get people doing nothing but complaining. Now people are whining about the even more balanced version that they know next to nothing about. Atleast use some common sense and actually PLAY the game before you start basing your opinions on little short blurbs.

#13
m84uily said on March 15, 2010 at 1:55 p.m.

Really, the Sagat player won, SK just wanted to make the story prove his point ;D

#14
sugar_shock said on March 15, 2010 at 1:55 p.m.

"He already had a free Ultra after landing a wall dive !!!...I guess he doesnt really know much about the character to begin with."

He only got a free Ultra if it hit them near the feet, I think. Seth implied that it is now a free Ultra no matter what.

#15
OG said on March 15, 2010 at 1:56 p.m.

Footsies boost for Guile? Will the whining stop now?

#16
Dan34 said on March 15, 2010 at 1:57 p.m.

If every match was 4-6 the better player would win most of the time but if it is 3-7 it really isn't that balanced. Guile has a few 3's and nothing to make up for it that is why he need's buffs.

#17
Taxattack123 said on March 15, 2010 at 1:58 p.m.

I kind of feel bad for Seth for having to put up with whiners, no offense.

#18
sugar_shock said on March 15, 2010 at 1:58 p.m.

"Give people one of the best balanced Capcom games yet and you get people doing nothing but complaining. Now people are whining about the even more balanced version that they know next to nothing about. Atleast use some common sense and actually PLAY the game before you start basing your opinions on little short blurbs."

so you tell us not to base opinions on a game that isn't out yet, from blurbs on the internet. I don't think you even realized that you just did the same thing you told us NOT to do >_>

#19
areyouken said on March 15, 2010 at 2:01 p.m.

This is pathetic, of course Zangief can beat Sagat, as long as Sagat doesn't know the matchup. Besides Sagat by far is not the worst match because Sagat cannot teleport away. With Sagat, once you get in, you can stay in. You can also exploit the "design flaw" of Sagat being too tall to duck under the larait. You easily do a wake-up game mixup of Lariat / Double German.

It means very little that someone who doesn't know the matchup loses on an avantagous character. Because if this "bully" knew the matchup he clearly would have chosen Akuma or Seth -- two characters that can teleport away.

Besides Sagat is strong against the grappler Honda, not necessarily the grappler Zangief. Zangief can build up his EX safely at a distance with the larait and use the EX Green Glove to through Tiger Shots. Honda has zero methods of going through fireballs.

#20
L45R said on March 15, 2010 at 2:01 p.m.

What a stupid comparison...the local guy is probably a noob..
and the GoW player's skill level is probably so much higher that of course the tier puts no weight..

Give me the best Sagat and best Gief on the world in a match to 10...

I'll put my life fortune on the Sagat player..period. I'll see how SSFIV will be more balance...

#21
Selten64 said on March 15, 2010 at 2:05 p.m.

If his oga wall is still unsafe on block its going to continue to be worthless =(

#22
Supersf4 said on March 15, 2010 at 2:05 p.m.

Gen killed Dumbledore.

#23
Mehdi said on March 15, 2010 at 2:05 p.m.

Gen wall dive now is better :? :( is Gen only in Wall dive
what he trying to proove seth?,Gen with no Mk-Hands and no chains combos(why Guy he does have i don't understand)
no reversal only at range :( no cross-up
make him do just wall dive free ultra and wall dive free ultra wall dive free ultra ........ :s :s :s
Gen wall dive is better what a change :(

#24
jrd8523 said on March 15, 2010 at 2:06 p.m.

Yeah Sugar_Shock. I guess the 14 month retweaked and balanced version of the game with the least amount of 7-3, 8-2 match ups could be more unbalanced... somehow. And since i'm mostly talking about the game thats been out for over a year....

The whiners are amazing. It mostly comes down to "my favorite character isn't one of the strongest in the game?... WAAAHHHH!!!!"

#25
Th3_JoK3R_J said on March 15, 2010 at 2:08 p.m.

All i see is "BLAH BLAH BLAH" until i see some Vega info only then i'll be more intrigued! >=(

#26
CervejaDoBrazil said on March 15, 2010 at 2:09 p.m.

I give Seth Credit sometimes but he sounds like a Filibuster right now. no joke

#27
toge said on March 15, 2010 at 2:11 p.m.

I think most of the Japanese Sagats would beat the Japanese Giefs...

#28
MIRACLEfool said on March 15, 2010 at 2:11 p.m.

@#20
I am pretty sure Honda goes through fireballs with his rocket headbutt man

#29
Guile said on March 15, 2010 at 2:12 p.m.

4-6 matchups i can tolerate.

Having a bunch of 3-7 matchups, i need some assurance that the problem gets solved.

with a lotta weaker characters like Vega they gave em decent ultras to give em some assurance and shut em up.

The problem is the SH is not such an ultra. Its prolly better but that doesnt mean its at least decent. low damage, useless anti-air, and little comboability - just an easier punisher for the most part.

im more interested in hitbox adjustment as that might actually help.

#30
kara said on March 15, 2010 at 2:15 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#31
DJay2411 said on March 15, 2010 at 2:18 p.m.

I agree with everything Seth said. And FYI Sagat kills Dumbledore!

#32
zUkUu said on March 15, 2010 at 2:20 p.m.

sugar_shock

Gen can ultra from any distance when wall dive hits.
its no buff in super. only change that was mentioned is that is it way faster (like adon) and still @rdj based on the information we have, only nerfs leaked tru for gen. the fact alone that mk => hands was removed is plain stupid. u dont have to know any frame data to see that this is one of the greatest nerfs in super from the very point of every character. it was part of his core game play. would be the same if they remove c.mk => hadoken.

#33
Telvanni said on March 15, 2010 at 2:20 p.m.

@NJCU

Try landing that thing in a match against someone who knows it's an overhead. His point was since it's faster you might actually be able to hit someone with it.

#34
XsaintedsinnerX said on March 15, 2010 at 2:21 p.m.

WOW, trolls are supposed to be few and far between but almost everytime something new is posted the troll patroll immediately jumps in and starts complaining lol! None of us have played this game yet and maybe...jsut maybe theres a little more going on than you guys may be aware of. Seth cant tell us everything that would be bad business, capcom isnt your "buddy" ists a corporation that needs to make money to continue making these games for our entertainment. So just relax. And as far as the bad match-ups they happen, dhalsim is great at a distance but not so hot up close, fei long needs to be close to shine. Instead of complaining maybe some of you should practice your difficult match ups and learn to overcome the things that are giving you trouble

#35
Dribozyme said on March 15, 2010 at 2:21 p.m.

DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD!?!? Thanks alot CAPCOM, you did it again!

#36
Guile said on March 15, 2010 at 2:25 p.m.

@35

funny thing is ur the troll.

this whole article is about improvements. of course its going to spark discussion on how its goign to affect to matchups. even seth talks about it in the article. lol

#37
Rhyllis said on March 15, 2010 at 2:25 p.m.

@ NJCU

He wasn't saying him being able to land the ultras is a new feature, he was simply saying that since now Wall Dive is so much faster, it's another viable way for Gen to land his ultras.

@ Sugar_shock

He actually can land his ultras no matter where he hits them. I, at least, have never seen Gen miss when he does the ultra as soon as he can.

Personally I'm not at all upset mk xx hands is gone/weakened. I think it gave people the wrong impression on Gen, like that's all he had going for him. I don't think it should be removed entirely, but I do think it should be toned down. It was clearly too useful in comparison to everything else he has, which is a shame. I think SSF IV Gen will be way more fun to play, and probably not much weaker/stronger.

EX Oga losing invincibility is a shame, but I don't know just how much invincibility it lost, so I can't comment much about it.

Gen is a complex character, one of the most detailed characters in the game. Mr. Wizard simply cannot find out everything about him that's different, so he checked the most common stuff. He could have a number of new tricks we don't know about yet.

Let's wait for the game to come out before we start complaining.

#38
Psycho said on March 15, 2010 at 2:30 p.m.

Street Fighter 4 was not only one of the best-balanced games of the current fighting crop.

No way that's true, maybe of the best balanced SF games but no that, just show me a Japanese Vega player winning a tournament beating Blanka in the finals.

#39
Psycho said on March 15, 2010 at 2:37 p.m.

Don't let Adon's Jaguar kick be unsafe on block like the guy said please.

#40
XsaintedsinnerX said on March 15, 2010 at 2:38 p.m.

@guile
im no troll i was just stating that its lame that everyone wants to blame the game for the problems they have with match ups instead of recognizing that they have hit a glass cieling and refuse to learn how to beat em. Debate is healthy complaining does nothing

#41
Dan34 said on March 15, 2010 at 2:39 p.m.

SF4 is very balanced their are only a few people in it who suck and all fighting games have people who aren't good.
MvC2=everyone but 12 people lol

#42
SSJ3X said on March 15, 2010 at 2:39 p.m.

I think we just need to wait. As it is, he did make a valid point about how the tier list is just an abstraction. While yes, you can clearly see that some character have more strength and endurance than the others, this isn't a reason to really argue what's good and what isn't now. We haven't touched the game yet.

Not only that, you have to think about who was available then when the arcade version of SFIV came out, to now when the console version was released. A lot of the console characters didn't get a lot of spotlight, so people who didn't familiarize themselves with a Rose or a Sakura, or whomever wasn't in the arcade version, didn't care. It's like the tier list, I don't know any Japanese players who play a console character, maybe a select few, but that's it, it's the same with the American players and Europe. Its the same with the new game, we've seen what most of these fellas can do, and they look good, but we won't know until we have the game in our possession for a few months if they are good.

Once the game comes out, we'll finally have our answers.

#43
Lolento said on March 15, 2010 at 2:40 p.m.

Honestly, I don't see why, or even how MK xx hands would be removed. It's not some black magic, it's just a normal move being canceled into a special move. Gen's MK is just your average medium normal, hyakurenkou is a regular special move. Why shouldn't you be able to cancel? It's just hard to do.

Which is why I wonder if MrWizard was doing it correctly or tried long enough. There are various ways of nerfing this combo if they wanted (like pushing the opponent further after hands to prevent another MK link, or reducing the forward step Gen takes specifically after canceling the MK into hands, which allows for the second MK to cancel once again into hands), simply removing it makes no sense.

#44
kurokiba said on March 15, 2010 at 2:40 p.m.

@ Psycho
Ill do that once you show me a tournament finals of these 2 matchups:
Mag-Sen-Sto vs Roll-Bot-T.Bon
Sean vs Chun
can you do that?

#45
Ett said on March 15, 2010 at 2:48 p.m.

Dumbledore DIED? WTF !

#46
ogerrob1487 said on March 15, 2010 at 2:49 p.m.

I feel like Seth is talking directly to eventhubs here. Just shut up and play the game. Well said, Seth.

Also, by expecting a perfectly balanced game, you are essentially expecting every character to be EXACTLY THE SAME. Thankfully, developers of fighting games realize that this would suck, and try to make the fighters diverse. This means that not every fighter will have the same options for similar circumstances. This is A GOOD THING.

Also, have some of you ever thought that maybe its not the character that sucks, its just YOU. Once you realize this, you can start realizing your own weaknesses as a player, rather than realizing the "weaknesses" of your character. I main Chun-Li, so I understand how hard it is to play VS Sagat and Ryu. But you don't hear me complaining because its not impossible to beat those characters. If I lose to a Sagat or Ryu, its because I did something wrong. If a Chun player can admit this, anybody should be able to.

Lesson: just learn your character AND HAVE FUN. Most of the fun is pushing yourself to do things you didn't think you could do. Its not about being the best in the world, its about being YOUR best. Once you realize this, the rest will follow.

#47
Klaus_Raynor said on March 15, 2010 at 2:49 p.m.

WTF Dumbledore DIES?!?!!!!

#48
Firegod said on March 15, 2010 at 2:59 p.m.

yea welp

#49
EnglishKidChin said on March 15, 2010 at 2:59 p.m.

This is the saddest day of my sf4 career.
Gen: "I'm too old to neeeeeeerf!"

#50
ricefarmer said on March 15, 2010 at 3 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#51
YoucefCef said on March 15, 2010 at 3:02 p.m.

Who did ask Killian these questions?! The real question should have been : "Why not a double quart cicle for Guile Ultra 2 in order to combo after a FADC Flash Kick?!"
That's what I call an embarassing question!

#52
oldboy said on March 15, 2010 at 3:04 p.m.

@44 I'm starting to suspect the same thing. In the podcast they say the used turbo to test it out. But I wonder if they held the button right after the mk. Even with the turbo button you still have to be quick for that combo. They might have just mistimed the cancel. I can't really see Capcom removing it, It's like removing crouching mk to hadouken.

#53
Dan_CiTi said on March 15, 2010 at 3:06 p.m.

I'm calling it, Dan is going to be higher tiered than Gen.

#54
NissanZaxima said on March 15, 2010 at 3:07 p.m.

Wow seth was really really nice in his answer. I would have called all of you complainers idiots because thats what you really are. Seriously complaining about something in a game you havent played because some guy played that character for 10 minutes in training mode?

and He is right about SF4 being one of the most balanced SF games ever. Have you not played 3S where a bunch of match-ups are 7-3 and 8-2? Sure Sagat and Ryu are ridiculous but Sagat of SF4 compared to the Chun-Li of 3S isnt even comparable because Chun-Li is a much better "best" character.

So seriously shut up and wait to play this game before you cry. But then again by the looks of things it seems as if most of you people wont even buy SSF4 because of how much SF4 made you puke. Whats the point of buying a game if you are complaining about it before you play it?

#55
Hyperbomb69 said on March 15, 2010 at 3:08 p.m.

They nerfed Vega! what they should have done was shave some frames off of his recovery, vega should be faster than Dictator not slower. Vega used to be high tier in all the other games and now he is the second worst character in SF4 and from what im seeing, he is going to be the worst character and last one on the tier list for SSF4. Capcom is showing no love for Claw.

#56
skeptical said on March 15, 2010 at 3:09 p.m.

"There will always be winners and losers in a rankings chart; if there weren't disparities, the game would be a lot less fun, which everyone seems to forget immediately when they are talking about "There's an imbalance!" but I digress."

-Seth taken from the "Keno misquoted me about SSF4 info" article.

I'm pretty sure that is where the question arrived from Seth.

#57
Speedwagon said on March 15, 2010 at 3:11 p.m.

Honda has ZERO ways og safely gettin through fireballs.
Nothing he has has any kind of super armor. Nothing he has save the ULTRA has pass through properties.
Hakan's EX Oil Up has fireball pass through properties for God's sake! He just stands and shakes oil! How does that go through fireballs?
If they gave sumo Headbutt startup fireball passing like the ultra, it'd really give him an option against Sagat, Ryu, etc.
Maybe even the LP Sumo Headbutt eats a fireball, like in HDR?

#58
mugen2k10 said on March 15, 2010 at 3:12 p.m.

Bullcrap, its hard to defend ryus' safeness, he has to do alot less to win most matches, I play Bison and when the end of he match comes and he spamming hado's and srk's I fear the trade ultra death!

#59
Lolento said on March 15, 2010 at 3:16 p.m.

@#53 oldboy
I didn't listen to the podcast, thanks for that one.
Most turbo controllers I know fire about 8 times per second, which translates to one button press every 7.5 frames. Now, after pressing MK you have 4 frames of startup and less than 15 frames of impact freeze (being generous), for a total of 19 frames. The turbo controller won't have finished even the fourth button at that rate. You'd need a controller that can fire at the very least 13 times/second; I'm not knowledgeable about turbo controllers, but I've never seen any going that fast (certainly my old PS2 controller can't).

They could have tried something way simpler, like:
* MP, buffer 3 punches during the huge hitstun animation, then MK xx fifth punch
* Jump, buffer 4 punches during the jump, MK xx fifth punch

#60
UAE4HAMAD said on March 15, 2010 at 3:18 p.m.

what a sad thing about gen he just have 1 real combo >> mk - hands >>>> i hope mr. wizard was wrong with his info about gen .... COPCOM plz WE NEED THIS COMBO ... POOR GEN

#61
Zaruka said on March 15, 2010 at 3:26 p.m.

so no mk into hands and no chains to improve his close ground game, but hey we got a faster oga that most of the time good opponents see coming and block and punish.

yea a faster oga good but what else. gen crane style is too slow and not worth the damage he gets from it and his mantis style which is suppose to be a combo style like it was from alpha 3.

but hey we got a faster oga so where going to kick butt give me a break

#62
NA said on March 15, 2010 at 3:31 p.m.

Having to deal with the community must be driving poor Seth insane.
A lot of people fly off the handle at the smallest rumor, and people speak to him as if he is personally responsible for issues that aren't even real.

#63
japo2300 said on March 15, 2010 at 3:34 p.m.

wtv, most of the time if u r skilled enough you can deal with many online players, this tiers only apply in major tournaments, so why whine so much just get the best shape of your character.

#64
Telvanni said on March 15, 2010 at 3:36 p.m.

@Guile:
How is Vega's 2nd Ultra any better than his first? There's no confirmation if you can combo into it, and from what I hear, it isn't even a command Ultra. It's another charge.

#65
NissanZaxima said on March 15, 2010 at 3:38 p.m.

@ FistOfLambda

Dont buy this game then go play one of your "perfectly" balanced fighting games that you talk about.

#66
youngtuna said on March 15, 2010 at 3:38 p.m.

Dumbledore dont even die.......

i read potter all of them what the ass capcom

#67
JinZo said on March 15, 2010 at 3:41 p.m.

Wow this is just.. stupid

Faster Oga is never gonna make up for MK-Hands. Oga never works in the first place against players with half a brain. If Oga is faster, that means it can punish offensive players more often, but once they play very defensive Oga will be useless. Oga is just a hit-or-miss risk taker that was better used as and an escape utility with EX, but since they seem to be nerfing that now I don't know what would be in stock for Gen..

The only information Seth gave us in this stupid article is the improved Oga only and nothing else.. this is a sign that Gen is indeed dead.

#68
brenttiscool said on March 15, 2010 at 3:42 p.m.

You need to understand what Seth is saying. He's saying that most people whine of bad matchups but the fact is that they would have lost regardless, simply because they are not the better player. Tier lists state a matchup based off of two EQUALLY SKILLED players, not two random guys online or in tournament. Give Alex Valle or Justin Wong Zangief and you pick Sagat and let them show you how bad the matchup is. If you lost the match, regardless of who your using, it's probably because you were not the better player. Besides, Sagat v Zangief is nowhere near as bad as Fei Long v Gouken, ;P.

#69
MAXOUT12 said on March 15, 2010 at 3:42 p.m.

same

#70
Mr12000 said on March 15, 2010 at 3:43 p.m.

You know what would make more sense to me? If in oil mode, getting hit with a fireball set Hakan on fire and slowly drained his health. If that EX move SERIOUSLY lets fireballs just pass right through him... wow. That's ridiculous.

#71
Dasvanu said on March 15, 2010 at 3:43 p.m.

Expecting a more balanced game is not asking for everyone to play the same way.

The fact that there are 5-5 matchups between completely different characters proves that it's possible.

#72
Ryuk said on March 15, 2010 at 3:44 p.m.

Nice to see God of War guy beating bully xD

#73
Guile said on March 15, 2010 at 3:45 p.m.

oh ok, im going off old news then (the vegas build opinons)

ive heard various rumors of improvemeents though. Didnt Vega get a new overhead and faster rolling flash for example?

so is Vega's new ultra really shaping up worse?

#74
yes4me said on March 15, 2010 at 3:45 p.m.

All that is left for me to wait is PC...

#75
Guile said on March 15, 2010 at 3:47 p.m.

sorry

*is Vega's new ultra not shaping up to be better than his first SO FAR?

#76
MIRACLEfool said on March 15, 2010 at 3:47 p.m.

@#72
If that happened then Hakan would definitely be the most unused character possible especially since their are atleast a 7:3 ratio of fireball spammers, on line, also it's olive oil, in other words not really flammable

#77
NissanZaxima said on March 15, 2010 at 3:47 p.m.

if anyyone in their right mind believes that Capcom can make a street fighter game with nothing but 5-5 matchups without having one character cloned 30 times and having the exact same properties.... is just.... wow really?

#78
MANDINGO said on March 15, 2010 at 3:50 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#79
MIRACLEfool said on March 15, 2010 at 3:52 p.m.

@#72 (once more)
oh and again, if you truly want logic in this game than any one in this game that uses fireballs than can literally light anyone else on fire who is wearing clothes preferably those of thread

#80
Makavelo said on March 15, 2010 at 3:56 p.m.

@areyouken #20 & @Speedwagon #58

True.

Honda has little to no options against Sagat this matchup its really hard but not impossible it all depends on who has a stronger mental game, Honda needs to be very smart in this matchup and the only thing Sagat has to do is run throw fireballs and then run some more, i really think the headbutt at least the EX version or the LP should go through fireballs but i dont thikn thats gonna happen

#81
Gamogo said on March 15, 2010 at 3:56 p.m.

@58. How about his super? Honda's super goes through fireballs clean, at full screen, on reaction, for HUGE damage.

Honda's Super is invaluable in matches against ball throwers.

#82
MANDINGO said on March 15, 2010 at 4:07 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#83
Telvanni said on March 15, 2010 at 4:09 p.m.

@Guile
Reports of Vega are all over the map. Aside from the overhead, he seems to be the same from some players. I heard that he had the faster rolls, but recent builds are saying he doesn't.

The second Ultra is a slide that connects low, but without any confirmation of it being able to combo, it sounds like a worse version of his Bloody High Claw.

Guess we'll just have to wait for more info, but look at the bright side. Maybe Guile will get better damage on his normals.

#84
bwinches said on March 15, 2010 at 4:13 p.m.

Slash5150 posted a video sometime ago on YouTube from the Las Vegas fight-club thingy with one video featuring Gen vs. Cody. I realize this wasn't the final build of the game, but perhaps Gen experts can confirm if the wall-dive is faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USAQwE...

#85
akumous said on March 15, 2010 at 4:14 p.m.

This is one of the best articles I read on here thus far. Seth, has my respect because he shares my philosophies in respects of the chart placement or ranking system. Basically, as Seth says, it doesn't matters who you pick because by the end of the day is the player with the best skills wins not the character.

#86
uspsbluetrain said on March 15, 2010 at 4:19 p.m.

Wow, I read way too many comments and am now more dumb for the trouble....Jokes on me I guess (no offense to people on Seth's side)

#87
Wonsang said on March 15, 2010 at 4:23 p.m.

Seth seems a little annoyed here and understandably so. He and everyone else at Capcom USA/JPN have put a lot of work into SSF4 and it kind of sucks to have people jump to conclusions like that.

Although I am dying to know what Dudley/Ibuki/Makoto will be like...mustn't...annoy...Seth...

#88
ricefarmer said on March 15, 2010 at 4:26 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#89
Adam_Zapple said on March 15, 2010 at 4:30 p.m.

@84

Honda's Super does go through fireballs but in a uphill battle Honda will constantly be using meter and will likely never build a Super.

Invincibility at start-up with EX headbutt would be good.

#90
MANDINGO said on March 15, 2010 at 4:32 p.m.

(This user was banned.)

#91
spanish_ninja said on March 15, 2010 at 4:35 p.m.

Seth sounds really proud of what he is doing and you can tell by what he said that he really wants everyone to understand that its just a f**king game and everyone should be happy that there are actually making it.
(think about it.......you should be happy)

#92
KDash said on March 15, 2010 at 4:38 p.m.

"Rank-O-Tron 3000!! I command you, tell me how good i am!!!"

haha, The japanese at least have one part right. Pick a character and stick with them, through the easy and the impossible match ups.

No one(character not player) is unbeatable. And i am not counting the broken anime fighters or smash or etc.

#93
PhinnyCupcakes said on March 15, 2010 at 4:41 p.m.

Seth's matchup vs whiners is 9 - 1. He needs to be nerfed.

#94
Telvanni said on March 15, 2010 at 4:42 p.m.

@92
Honda's Sumo Splash goes through fireballs. It isn't safe on block, but if you anticipate fireballs you can catch them in the recovery frames.

#95
fresco4eva said on March 15, 2010 at 4:52 p.m.


@ pysco #39

my thoughts exactly.... especially me being a blanka player, how can he say that this game is the best balanced game on the market when i hit dhalsim or abel with a blanka ball they can hit me back with either fp (dhalsim), or ultra (abel).... fcuk outta here wit dat sh!t son.....

#96
MadnessFamilyguile said on March 15, 2010 at 4:54 p.m.

Seth is annoyed EVERYTIME someone asks about Guile i swear ahahahah, then he goes and says that's who he used to play in WW.

Along with hitbox changes, i really hope his normals are more generous with startup and recovery too, screw the ultra(even though i'll select it as there's less chance to botch the motion and far more lenient}

Combo into ultra isn't what made Guile bad in this game. Look at how his normals and specials act in this game and compare it to any other, SCREW the ultra. And incase someone is going to mention damage, he does near the exact same damage in CvsS2 and yet he was one of the best characters because all of his moves did what they were supposed to do.

Combo ability makes up for weaker single hit damage, ask ryu.

#97
Akki said on March 15, 2010 at 4:56 p.m.

#93 good thing this isn't a shooter then. Even that would take some skill not much but what if he couldn't snipe?

#98
Dash said on March 15, 2010 at 4:58 p.m.

Look at it from this perspective. Even if the game where balanced and every character took the same amount of damage on a kick ,punch, throw, and special move. Would that make a balance game? Would that make a good game. Would this make people happy? How would you feel about the characters then? You still will have others who are better than you at the game with all of the above so calm down. It would just be another complaint that every move does the same amount of damage so asking for a game to be perfectly balanced is not being reasonable balance aint the focus.

Tweaks, buffs and nerfs and utilizing your arsenal are whats really important. Its a determining factor to any match not the balance. Ive seen low rank characters in the game put hands on Sagats, Ryu's and other top tier characters using low tier guys. It all comes down to SKILL. Understanding the mechanics of the game in and out all fall under skill not just winning some matches. Thats just experience(which is good)but anybody can get that just play long enough, but skill is something people are born with some have it others don't. Some have to but mad time into the games others pick it up just like that. The character you pick does not make you good its the person controlling the character that may not be good and may need more work. The problem lies between the controller and the couch/bed/chair. You just want your fav. character to be the best so you say things like "man if he had this and that this would make him better", but you still pick him because why? There's got to be another way to utilize him to overcome this flaw right? And its a challenge to find a workarond and reap the reward. If a character had a move but then its been taken away then I can understand because you get use to having the move so I fell ya on that but its not the end of the word. Every character will not be the same some will be stronger than others. Everybody cant be the strong character somebody has to be in between. What you do with the character make the difference. Some of you are already defeat and the game has not come out yet because you exploit and broadcast your characters weaknessness instead give him a alternative solution and not a dead end.

#99
RisingStar said on March 15, 2010 at 4:58 p.m.

They should let him keep mk too hands and give him chain combos then leave him alone...

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