9:50 a.m.
Results from GodsGarden Daigo, YHC Mochi SSF4 match
Update: The next match, Sako (Cammy) and Makoto (Claw), will take place Saturday, July 17, at 6 a.m. PST. It will be streamed through the usual places.
Round 2 of the GodsGarden Super Street Fighter 4 online tournament got underway this morning. Today's match featured reigning EVO champion Daigo Umehara (Ryu) vs. YHC Mochi (Dhalsim).
A video archive of the Gamer Vision stream is available now, so you can see how this first to ten set played out. There's a bit of preamble with the clip above, and the action doesn't get underway until about 18 minutes 50 seconds in. A YouTube version from TeamSp00ky, with English commentary, will also be available soon.
To read the results and a recap, hit the link below.
Winner: YHC Mochi (Dhalsim) 10
Loser: Daigo Umehara (Ryu) 8
This approach favored Mochi's Dhalsim, and he went up 2-0 in the set with some smart and solid play.
At the start of the third game, Daigo looked to be more aggressive, taking outright risks that he didn't before, but Mochi's defense stayed strong, and although this change in style gave Dhalsim some trouble, he still pulled out the next match to go up 3-0.
Despite losing, Daigo kept being aggressive and started to find a few more gaps in Mochi's defense, but he botched a potential Ultra corner setup, which he was heavily punished for, and went down 0-4. The botched combos and bad reads theme continued for Umehara in the next game and he found himself facing an 0-5 deficit.
Mochi had threaded the needle on a number of occasions going into the sixth game, with exceptional spacing, along with dodging a TON of fireballs and making some very psychic moves, he'd built a sizable lead against Umehara.
When Daigo was off a hair, Mochi's game was very tight, and he'd make Umehara pay the price for not being precise. Some dropped combos and bad reads had really hurt The Beast's game up till this point.
Daigo was on the ropes, although he wasn't being dominated, he had lost every game so far, but he made his patented clutch plays to win the next one and finally get on the board, 5 games to 1.
In the next set, Daigo unleashed a bit of The Beast taking a game very quickly by connecting some large combos, Focus Attacks and Shoryukens he'd missed earlier, but he was still down 7-2.
Daigo kept making great use of Ryu's Focus Attacks, especially unblockable Level 3s. Mochi started to look a bit off here, with Daigo's rushdown and reads starting to pay dividends, and he rattled off two straight wins to even things up a bit more at 7-4.
To open up the next game Daigo took A TON of risks and got beat down for it, but he wouldn't be dissuaded that easily, and kept running towards Mochi, but lost regardless, and was now down 8 games to 4.
Daigo bounced back from the loss to win the next two games behind some killer combos, and things got a bit closer, with the score at 8-6 in Mochi's favor.
YHC Mochi started using some of Dhalsim's faster pokes to start countering Daigo's Focus Attacks and had some success, and won the next game to put Daigo on the verge of elimination, 9-6.
The final match came down to the wire and ended in a Double K.O., and since Mochi had won the first round, he took the last set to finish 10-8 and Daigo was eliminated from the tournament in dramatic fashion.
Posted by popscythe on July 16, 2010 at 6:19 a.m. #1
Comon sim, get revenge for art!
Posted by SAMURAI on July 16, 2010 at 6:23 a.m. #2
Mochi: 6
Daigo: 0
I can't believe it. Daigo making some strange mistakes, but this Dhalsim is a monster. Probably the best Dhalsim in the world.
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 6:25 a.m. #3
I knew This is really a bad matchup for Daigo, but I never expected it would be this bad.
Posted by kamatchou on July 16, 2010 at 6:32 a.m. #4
this is kick ass movie streaming ? or godsgarden streaming ?
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 6:36 a.m. #5
What is up with Daigo using level 3 twice in a round?
Posted by SAMURAI on July 16, 2010 at 6:40 a.m. #6
Mochi: 7
Daigo: 4
Daigo 'The Beast' Umehara is fighting back!
Posted by TheMasterPlayer on July 16, 2010 at 6:41 a.m. #7
so what's the latest score? Mochi 9 , Daigo 4?
Posted by SAMURAI on July 16, 2010 at 6:45 a.m. #8
Mochi: 8
Daigo: 5
Posted by Sh3azu on July 16, 2010 at 6:46 a.m. #9
I want him to lose. Too many people like him too much.
He's good, I want him to lose.
Posted by popscythe on July 16, 2010 at 6:47 a.m. #10
Ladies and Gentlemen:
The Beast Returns
Posted by Sh3azu on July 16, 2010 at 6:47 a.m. #11
@12
Thanks for the example.
Posted by blacksquid on July 16, 2010 at 6:48 a.m. #12
SIck comeback. 8-6 Mochi now...
Posted by TheMasterPlayer on July 16, 2010 at 6:51 a.m. #13
@SH3azu so what if too many people like him? just becasue of that you want him to lose? even if he loses, that won't change the fact that a lot of people like him. and that wont change the fact that Daigo is one talented fighting gamer.
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 6:51 a.m. #14
Match point for Mochi
Posted by TheMasterPlayer on July 16, 2010 at 6:53 a.m. #15
Daigo hanging in there though!
Posted by Sh3azu on July 16, 2010 at 6:54 a.m. #16
@15
Not saying he isn't talented it's just annoying when he pulls off a combo and recives a bunch of people shouting 'THE BEAST' at him.
And such.
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 6:57 a.m. #17
Jesus, this is too intense. It's like Daigo vs Sabin all over again.
Posted by keineheldenmehr on July 16, 2010 at 7 a.m. #18
DOUBLE KO WIN..lol!!
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 7 a.m. #19
Mochi wins
Posted by SAMURAI on July 16, 2010 at 7:01 a.m. #20
Damn!
Posted by TheShotokan on July 16, 2010 at 7:01 a.m. #21
Man, if Daigo wins this hes undoubtedly the best in the universe, if he loses, as far as skill Daigo is better than mochi, by a good margin. Dhalsim to me has always been a bit broken, majority of his attacks take, but one button to keep u at bay. As where others have to be twice as fast to compete with him. I say Daigo was still the better player just a kinda cheap character he was fighting.
Posted by CDiggity on July 16, 2010 at 7:01 a.m. #22
That last match was fixed!
Posted by C3TN on July 16, 2010 at 7:01 a.m. #23
this dhalsim should have been in evo, too good
Posted by TheMasterPlayer on July 16, 2010 at 7:02 a.m. #24
Congrats to YHC Mochi! that was a very entertaining match! In the end Dhalsim just has a better reach and zoning game than Ryu imo.
oh and @ Sh3azu you happy now? There Daigo lost...
Posted by popscythe on July 16, 2010 at 7:02 a.m. #25
@23
Well that's just like... your opinion, man.
Posted by loasdblopp on July 16, 2010 at 7:02 a.m. #26
Oh My god, amazing play from both sides.
Posted by ajuntalee on July 16, 2010 at 7:04 a.m. #27
really fun to watch, i love that godsgarden games, nice show dudes, really suspensfull, feels daigo lost too many matches trying to figure out mochis' response pattern to hado zoning, great comeback though. really intresting matches.
thanks tokido for the event thanks for the lmivestream, it more enjoyable than soccer world cup.
Posted by ducksauce on July 16, 2010 at 7:05 a.m. #28
@23
you're just an idiot.
dhalsim is far from cheap.
Posted by Remster on July 16, 2010 at 7:06 a.m. #29
Daigo is definitely doesn't disappoint, those crazy level 3 focuses from outta nowhere.
Posted by Akki on July 16, 2010 at 7:06 a.m. #30
that wasn't daigo it was his friend idiots.
inb4 ur on daigo's pipe. (it was a joke) simmer down now it's not that serious
Posted by bananainsaneface on July 16, 2010 at 7:07 a.m. #31
Dhalsim is not broken he just is a bad match up for Ryu. I'm actually surprised Daigo took 8 games after being down by 5 at one point. He switched his style to very aggressive mid-way through the set and made some amazing comebacks. This was a very entertaining set.
Posted by Deimlos on July 16, 2010 at 7:07 a.m. #32
Profound... sadness!
As long as Makoto still takes it, I'm good.
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 7:08 a.m. #33
Honestly, I thought that this would end in 6-10 Mochi. I had a feeling that Daigo would lose. His only options were guessing and hadoukens. He adapted, but it was already too late for that because Mochi was able to download as well.
Anyways, great comeback from Daigo, but Mochi proves that he's the stronger player today.
Posted by TheShotokan on July 16, 2010 at 7:08 a.m. #34
Yea, mochi is awesome, but honestly Daigo is still the superior. If you payed close attention you could see Daigo had to think Damn near 2 moves ahead while plotting how to get in, and trying to defend. With Dhalsim you can sit back, and literally have a great equanimity, maybe it's just Ryu, shotos, etc? I still know Daigo is a better player, not taking anything from mochi gj to him, but if he were truly better i'd say.
Posted by Tuthur on July 16, 2010 at 7:10 a.m. #35
too bad the double K.O. counts as a round for each player unlike in previous games, it would have been awesome.
Posted by TheShotokan on July 16, 2010 at 7:11 a.m. #36
Lol, while im here any1 up for some sets? add me <-- Fourthehellofit
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 7:11 a.m. #37
Yea, but if Daigo just had more health after he ate that ultra, the set would probably go to him, probably.
Posted by Poke on July 16, 2010 at 7:13 a.m. #38
Daigo fanboys are in disarray
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 7:14 a.m. #39
And you anti-boys are just as annoying.
Posted by SmoothJK on July 16, 2010 at 7:16 a.m. #40
What's funny is all these guys lecturing about what Daigo SHOULD be doing. I even see people on the stream saying, "Dude, even I could beat him the way he's playing."
Some idiotic folks in the community. Mochi was just godlike, and Daigo had to fish for some new strategy on the fly. He made an amazing comeback, too, and that was damn impressive in my book.
Daigo dickriders and blind haters are equally stupid.
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 7:20 a.m. #41
I've learn something new, I should use crouch strong more often against Sim players since it looks like it beats most of Sim's normal moves. Ryucopter isn't safe, and never trade hadoukens with Sim's standing fierce.
Posted by L45R on July 16, 2010 at 7:25 a.m. #42
Daigo is not playing like he's Daigo...he was jumping in recklessly...throwing too many unsafe fireball...rushing in way too much...almost like playing with no patient and that's just not like Daigo at all.
Posted by caruga on July 16, 2010 at 7:28 a.m. #43
Daigo was frequently wasting his time throwing fireballs from across the screen; the only time I saw them land was when they traded with Dhalsim's limbs, and the trade was in Dhalsim's favour. He figured out too late that ballsily rushing Mochi down from the ground was his only option. I reckon if they had a rematch it would be Daigo who came out on top.
I'm only sad that I won't get to see Sako vs. Daigo.
Posted by fineyoungcanibal on July 16, 2010 at 7:30 a.m. #44
@44 that's because when he tried to play his typical fb zone game it went 6-1 mochi. He had to change it up and play more reckless and aggressive and try to get inside.
Posted by boulderabuser on July 16, 2010 at 7:33 a.m. #45
I'm still hurt that Mago didn't win, I'm learning to play Fei Long myself and I know he mains Long in Super.
Posted by Lets_Fight_Like_Gentlemen on July 16, 2010 at 7:37 a.m. #46
Daigo just got used to beating Art's scrubby Sim that he wasn't prepared for Mochi. Lol.
Just kidding, of course.
Posted by mugen2k10 on July 16, 2010 at 7:55 a.m. #47
This goes to show that if Japan top players come to evo the story would be different.
Posted by CMAyhem on July 16, 2010 at 7:56 a.m. #48
lol @ ppl saying dhalsim is a bad match up for ryu...
Posted by DRain on July 16, 2010 at 7:59 a.m. #49
Dhalsim IS a bad mtchup for Ryu. It was even in Vanilla, but now Dhalsim got buffed and Ryu got nerfed. Ryu's fireball tricks don't work on Dhalsim at all anymore.
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on July 16, 2010 at 8:03 a.m. #50
@50 of course dhalsim is a bad match...daigo lost to mochi right?...
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on July 16, 2010 at 8:14 a.m. #51
did chris hu do a commentary for this too? if yes, does anyone know the link?
Posted by DK_DOOM on July 16, 2010 at 8:30 a.m. #52
@52: Just because Daigo lost doesn't make it a bad match-up. This match-up was even in Vanilla and honestly, it's 6-4 Dhalsim at the most, which isn't "bad" by any means. Many of these games were close and down to the wire, Daigo's convincing losses were when he was taking risks, making mistakes, and clearly playing out of desperation and not within his element because he let many of the early games get away.
Posted by fabulos on July 16, 2010 at 8:33 a.m. #53
Daigo haters can celebrate now. Right, Clovr4Lyf?
Posted by SteadiestShark on July 16, 2010 at 8:34 a.m. #54
Dayamn. I can't say I'm surprised - he doesn't seem to do as well against Dhalsim as he does against other characters....
Posted by GSwag on July 16, 2010 at 8:36 a.m. #55
first art then mochi. digos secret weakness is dhalsim? this jsut in jwong mains dhalsim
Posted by SmoothJK on July 16, 2010 at 8:37 a.m. #56
#52 Yes, Sim is a bad matchup for Ryu. It's not just because Daigo lost to Mochi.
Posted by Clovr4Lyf on July 16, 2010 at 8:40 a.m. #57
If it's a bad match-up for X why even watch it?
I saw Art V. Daigo Salty Suite right before this...Sabin IS the real deal! He lost by a hair to Daigo.
Momochi however KILLED Daigo 6 in a row!! He should get an award just for that alone!
Double KO at the end says it all!
Im surprised nobody said something stupid like, Daigo is getting old or he has Jet Lag from America or he must have been distracted...
Posted by IrPanda on July 16, 2010 at 8:46 a.m. #58
lol@52 reasoning for it being a bad match up lol, hope ur joking
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on July 16, 2010 at 8:50 a.m. #59
@60 why would I be joking...according to some "people" here sim is definitely broken(maybe over powered)...
Posted by bananainsaneface on July 16, 2010 at 8:54 a.m. #60
@50 CMAyhem
"lol @ ppl saying dhalsim is a bad match up for ryu..."
Its not? Dhalsim outzones Ryu easily. The only way for Ryu to win this match is to get inside and a really good Dhalsim player can keep you out all day. Daigo figured halfway through the set that he had to go random and went into beast mode but it was too late. I am seriously surprised he got 8 games. Thought this was gonna be 10-4 Mochi.
Posted by bananainsaneface on July 16, 2010 at 8:55 a.m. #61
DK_DOOM the only way for Ryu to win this match is to take risks.
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on July 16, 2010 at 9:01 a.m. #62
@62
you know who dhalsim can outzone pretty easily? almost the whole cast...the WHOLE CAST pretty much have to get in on SIM to do some damage...so why is ryu such a bad matchup again?
Posted by Sp00ky on July 16, 2010 at 9:03 a.m. #63
Our version will be here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg-Faj...
It's still processing so it wont be available for a while.
Posted by bananainsaneface on July 16, 2010 at 9:12 a.m. #64
@62
you know who dhalsim can outzone pretty easily? almost the whole cast...the WHOLE CAST pretty much have to get in on SIM to do some damage...so why is ryu such a bad matchup again?
Yes but the other characters have ways to get in. Shotos have to rely on random guesses to get in on Sim. Did you watch the first 6 games?
What is your strategy in the Ryu/Sim match up. I main Ryu and a good Dhalsim will make you want to kill yourself.
Posted by Poke on July 16, 2010 at 9:23 a.m. #65
18 matches: 10 to 8
10/18 = 5.5 (Dhalsim)
8/18 = 4.5 (Ryu)
seems about right judging by these numbers
Posted by jjohan35 on July 16, 2010 at 9:44 a.m. #66
Wow pretty good Poke. I didn't even think about it like that.
Mochi's sim is much more exciting than Arturo's sim/seth.
Posted by jjohan35 on July 16, 2010 at 9:44 a.m. #67
BTW is the GodsGarden tournament single elimination? I thought everyone plays everyone to win 10 games.
Posted by Mienaikage on July 16, 2010 at 9:51 a.m. #68
Not to discredit Momochi, as he's an excellent player, but Daigo didn't seem like he was playing 100% at the start for some reason, his play just seemed a bit off for someone of his caliber. He started to pull things together towards the end but it was a little too late for him.
Posted by Catalyst on July 16, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. #69
@jjohan35
As far as I know, it's single elimination. Players who lost haven't had any more matches scheduled.
Posted by jhayze on July 16, 2010 at 9:56 a.m. #70
im not really a shoto player! but i know how godly Daigo's Ryu is...but...Dhalsim is still a bad matchup against Ryu!
Posted by NJCU on July 16, 2010 at 9:56 a.m. #71
This is Ryu worst match up 6-4 at least. He must has to take many risks, basically guess with a Hadouken, and his fireball game has to be on point. He doesn't have the demon flips, Kara throws etc so his options at mid range are greatly diminished. The rest of the cast have ways to get in. Abel can Roll for example and Ibuki can slide. If you don't feel it is a bad match up for Ryu play me. XBL: Deus Le Volt
Posted by sf4maniac on July 16, 2010 at 10 a.m. #72
sako vs makoto 7/17 22:00 (JST)
Posted by Anon on July 16, 2010 at 10:13 a.m. #73
In SSF4 the Ryu Dhalsim matchup is at least 5.5-4.5 if not 6-4 in Dhalsim's favor with the buffs Dhalsim got and nerfs Ryu got.
Posted by kpxcho on July 16, 2010 at 10:15 a.m. #74
haha i was gonna say, since these two are considered to be using their characters to the "best that they can be played" does this solidify their tier list matchup? 8:10 = around 4-5 matchup
Posted by BlankaBeast on July 16, 2010 at 10:17 a.m. #75
How long is long enough to determine who is best? Maybe first to 10 is not long enough? This is the question that can be debated.
Learning to play your opponent rather than the game.
Posted by Jaf on July 16, 2010 at 10:49 a.m. #76
For everyone who thinks Mochi plays strictly turtle-style, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSc2E4...
Posted by Akro on July 16, 2010 at 10:49 a.m. #77
Ryu definitely does not look OP.
Posted by lolwut on July 16, 2010 at 10:50 a.m. #78
I'm going to go out on a limb and say Ryu has trouble against zoning characters, as evidenced by Lamerboi's performance against Daigo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xYLVD...
and YHC's first to 10 performance against Daigo.
Posted by BlankaBeast on July 16, 2010 at 11:03 a.m. #79
That makes sense - lolwut - Ryu IS a zoner himself, so its a matter of interrupting his own zoning that can cause problems. or...beating him at his own game so to speak.
Posted by zxzxz on July 16, 2010 at 11:11 a.m. #80
"18 matches: 10 to 8
10/18 = 5.5 (Dhalsim)
8/18 = 4.5 (Ryu)
seems about right judging by these numbers"
that assumes equal player skill. every dhalsim has given daigo trouble, even henry cen in a casual at i think it was ect1? gave him trouble in SF4, pre sim-buff ryu-nerf. i think it's a hard sell to say all of these dhalsims just happen to be equal in skill to daigo.
i think it's safe to assume it's at least 6:4 sim in ssf4, and likely worse, and made to look better by the daigo factor.
Posted by lolwut on July 16, 2010 at 11:16 a.m. #81
Where's Clovr4lyf? Guile and Dhalsim may be counter-picks to Ryu. Your thoughts?
Posted by StrayX on July 16, 2010 at 11:19 a.m. #82
I wonder how much is on the line in this tournament. If there ain't no big prizes, then it's understandable why Daigo would rush down like he did and ate tons of free hits.
Cuz once he gets in, he lights it up like the 4th of July, and that is soooo entertaining to watch.
So if Daigo was in this only to win, he failed miserably. But if he was in this to please the fans, I say he succeeded.
And to those saying Dhalsim is cheap... go home, pick dhalsim, let your opponent get close to you, and now try to escape... good luck.
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on July 16, 2010 at 11:24 a.m. #83
don't even bring that whole "OH IT'S A BAD MATCHUP FOR RYU" it's 4-6 for christ's sake, ryu has beaten very good sagats(pre-nerf) and that was a 4-6 matchup also.
if makoto can overcome a 4-6 matchup against uryo, then damn hell daigo can do to.
like daigo said, it's not about character match ups, but about player matchups. Daigo just got outmatched this time
Posted by Tonedef5959 on July 16, 2010 at 11:25 a.m. #84
at The Shotokan #23 I dont think dhalsim is broken. I dont main Sim but I try to play him on the side and I dont think you would say it if played Sim vs Viper/Bison/Abel. Sim just does well against zoners such as Ryu/Sagat/Guile etc etc
Daigo did make some weird calls but you have to go nuts on Dhalsim so I dont blame him for being more aggressive than usual. A few random focuses and random DP actually works bc it is worth the risk to get a knockdown. Dhalsim is in trouble when he gets cornered and it is hard to escape that corner without taking damage.
Posted by his1nightmare on July 16, 2010 at 11:28 a.m. #85
Hadouken Hadouken Hadouken Hadouken Hadouken Hadouken hahahaha
Yoga Flame ahahahha
can... someone disable the commentators please?.. by every single video they get more and more stupid;
BUT, great matches, great dhalsim.
Posted by Throwryuken on July 16, 2010 at 11:56 a.m. #86
Dhalsim matches In sf4 series are the most boring ass matches ever. I don't know how anyone can get any satisfaction out of running away the whole match and poking full screen. Nobody rushes down with him. Damn snorefest.
I'm happy to see the daigo get beat every now and again tho. It helps me believe in god. Lol.
Posted by Clovr4Lyf on July 16, 2010 at 12:14 p.m. #87
Dhalsim is the ONLY character in the game that can get a clean hit on Ryu from far before Ryu's gun goes off! or trade at worst! In Dhalsims favor!
Was this for money BTW?
Posted by Shadowzz on July 16, 2010 at 12:14 p.m. #88
well done from both Daigo did make some great comebacks. But no one should be surprised he is fighting Japan their are players that are = or know how to adapt to Daigo. He does lose people in Japan a lot more than he does else where.
Posted by RandomJohn on July 16, 2010 at 12:36 p.m. #89
I can't wait till Evo in Japan come Sept (I think). Justin Wong is going to face more than one Daigo's. I'm going to bust out laughing if he gets knocked out in the first round haha.
@Clovr4Lyf: Ism's nothing once Ryu gets in there which was proving from time to time in Daigo's wins. If the Ism player does not have a GREAT zoning game, they can kiss the match goodbye.
Posted by Amar on July 16, 2010 at 12:40 p.m. #90
Funny how no one mentions match-ups when daigo wins. His dickriders always take it harder than he does.
Posted by Doppler on July 16, 2010 at 12:53 p.m. #91
I like how only loose daigo and say that was a bad match
he loses only because he most of the time defend but he cant defend against a sim hahahahaha
ohh and ryu is better than sim, ryu have very very very fews bad match, so dont cry ryu kids ;)
and ryus is top tier lol
Posted by gtfopanda on July 16, 2010 at 12:57 p.m. #92
@ Amar 92
Well, Daigo's win against Momochi's Ibuki doesn't really add to that matter, imho. Figthing against a character who has not been extensively explored cannot really bring up some serious matchup considerations.
Everyone can see, on the other hand, how Dhalsim has got all the tools to shut down Ryu - and not only him. It's not just about "oh Daigo lost, bad matchup", that's garbage. However, by watching the fight, you could actually get a really good feel for the matchup.
I'm still not sure about it, but this particular matchup surely looked at least 6-4 to Dhalsim's favor, if Daigo had to resort to some level 3 FA craziness and had to switch to a way more aggressive style.
Posted by AeriALs on July 16, 2010 at 1 p.m. #93
Dont forget they are allowed each 1 time tos witch their opponent if they think the m/u is unfair, so Daigo clearly thought he had a chance to win. 6-4 match ups are very winnable, and Dhalsim is far from a cheap character. Get in close on a Dhalsim and watch them squirm lol.
Posted by Sakura on July 16, 2010 at 1:33 p.m. #94
gotta love how daigo lovers use every excuse in the book to justify him losing...
just face the fact that the better player won...
Posted by shinobaka on July 16, 2010 at 1:36 p.m. #95
I think the fuss about his lost is all a waste of time, the only thing I see is that they both put out a great fight and that this time around Daigo got outplayed with a hard match with ryu, but still it is of course possible. I think its great Daigo lost and loses sometimes... i mean isnt that what a lot of us wanted to see at evo? he is still the champ but with this at least the champ knows he can still grow... i have seen him lose numerous of times at big box in japan.... this is what street fighter is about and this is how all of us players better ourselves. i'm sure that Sim was crappin his pants at times also... it was a great fight period. Al this is coming from a Daigo fanboy haha but yea not the type to back him up with all his losses because I know he is just a SF player like all of us... he doesnt need a %100 win rate like all of us other fanboys would want... I have been playing SF for a while so yea... I have some of his matches from big box on my page
http://www.youtube.com/user/shinobaka
Posted by DRain on July 16, 2010 at 1:38 p.m. #96
I don't think it's so much justifying Daigo's loss as it is shutting up the people who keep complaining about Ryu supposedly having no bad matchups.(Clovr) I think it's a bad matchup for Ryu, but I would agree that Mochi was definitely the better player.
Posted by shinobaka on July 16, 2010 at 1:43 p.m. #97
yea Mochi was the better player in this match... but ever since SF4 has gotten so huge i find it harder and harder to pinpoint who the actual best players is or are. anything can happen in Street fighter. Daigo may have the best record now, but really there can always be someone who can out play him and it was a great idea for him to come up with this online tourney because he even showed himself that someone can out play him... so to alot of you I dont know why you're crushed about his lost, but to me I think he is disappointed but at the same time like any top player is happy about the fact that he found someone to keep him in check.... I mean no one at evo didn't really get to do that for him...
Posted by IrPanda on July 16, 2010 at 1:56 p.m. #98
@61
I'm not saying it is or isn't a bad matchup, im just saying that coming up with the idea that just because Daigo lost against Sim means that lol.
Posted by SrAbuguet on July 16, 2010 at 2:07 p.m. #99
People... Daigo is the beast... because he know how to adapt and destroy any strategy he faces. Maybe some strategies require more time, in this case Mochi's Dhalsim, but at the end of the day The Beast discovers the secret and pawns the enemy. Daigos's understanding of the game is ridiculous, and that magical comeback is the evidence.
Posted by Clovr4Lyf on July 16, 2010 at 2:19 p.m. #100
Get in close on Dhalsim and watch him teleport!
Posted by IrPanda on July 16, 2010 at 2:29 p.m. #101
@102 get him in the corner...
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on July 16, 2010 at 2:30 p.m. #102
@SrAbuguet
i would like to think that daigo and mochi have played multiple sets before this tourney. I think top players in japan just fight each other for the hell of it to level up. So the excuse that daigo needed time to download mochi's game is kinda unfair to mochi.
Posted by NJCU on July 16, 2010 at 2:56 p.m. #103
If you get close to Sim he can teleport but if you predict the teleport Sim is gonna eat a jump in combo. If you knock Sim down the same applies. Once you get in on him is your game to loose.
Posted by Hayate1984 on July 16, 2010 at 2:57 p.m. #104
I don't think Daigo would've lost if $20,000 were on line. Only Ca$h unleashes the beast!
Posted by mugen2k10 on July 16, 2010 at 3:24 p.m. #105
@srabuguet, man please... diago knows this matchup, he was outplayed....point blank. Makoto would've and has beaten him already. These players are just as epic and skilled as diago.
Posted by caruga on July 16, 2010 at 3:54 p.m. #106
I don't think it takes anything away from Mochi to say that it was easier for him to keep Daigo out, than it was for Daigo to get in; not as a result of skill difference but just the inherent properties of the characters and the tools they have at their disposal. That Daigo ended up doing crazy stuff like dashing in, sometimes up to three times, on a Dhalsim, tells me he HAD to resort to doing that, although he only was able to after conditioning his opponent. Then again, i'm not sure if the anti-air normals that Mochi was so consistent with were easy to pull off, or whether he just made them look easy.
Posted by THawk on July 16, 2010 at 3:58 p.m. #107
I won't lie... I'm a huge Daigo fan, but that was a great match and Mochi pulled it off. Congrats on your sick Sim. Don't see nearly enough of them.
Posted by Hitstick on July 16, 2010 at 4:07 p.m. #108
I find it funny people like to make excuses for Daigo. Despite the fact that he had MORE than ten chances to win and yet didn't. Daigo has lost regularly to these players in this GodsGarden tournament and people need to realize they are just as good or better than Daigo. Daigo doesn't win in Japan like he does in America, nah, he loses as we have seen many times against his native folk. Daigo himself said this tournament was to see who is the strongest and he obviously is not with the loss. Mochi pretty much controlled the entire game against Daigo and Daigo didn't have an answer for it. The match was pretty boring as many of us knew it would be with all the spacing/zoning.
Makoto's match again will be one of the better one's [like it was against Uryo's Viper] against Sako. I'm glad it's going down tomorrow.
Posted by SrAbuguet on July 16, 2010 at 4:15 p.m. #109
Ok Im wrong, in the case that Mochi and Daigo have played together for a long time, Daigo has not discovered how to beat a Dhalsim that relies on heavy zoning... It would be interesting to know about the results of this Mochi in Japan. Daigo couldnt be the best there, but its no fckn idiot right?
Posted by Psychotic on July 16, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. #110
Honestly, alot of these comments look like they're coming from either Daigo or Shoto fans. Dhalsim is not a bad match-up for Ryu, Ryu has no bad match-ups anymore. The developers made sure of that, or do people not recall it being stated that characters were rebalanced relative to the changes that were made to Ryu.
Very few characters can be completely zoned out by Dhalsim, you just have to play better. If you want to beat Sim, you don't even need to actually close with him, just trade using attacks that are more damaging than his (again, many characters have little difficulty in coming up with the moves for that).
Who won and who lost this match came down to strictly who played better, with Mochi playing better in this case. He played solidly, doing mostly defense/counter-attacks, but did go aggressive a couple of times.
Daigo needed to get in and play offensively, but he went with a primarily defensive game, which he's been doing most of the time since SSIV came out. That defensive game makes it hell for most players and characters to win, but it wasn't the right way to play here. When he got out of his box, he did much better, with even the computer helping him to win (or did nobody else notice the one match where the computer had Dhalsim's Ultra come out on the other side, then keep Ryu on the same side, giving Umehara the win). All he needed to do was realize that after the first game, or the second, or the third (I think he was too set in his defensive Ryu game).
In the end, the character choices made no difference. Neither player had a disadvantage because of what the other player's character could do relative to the other. There was a game right there in front of both of them to be played as it had been laid out beforehand. The person who played the game better was the person who won.
Posted by Saikyun on July 16, 2010 at 5:03 p.m. #111
I do think Daigo played a bit weird in the beginning, particulary the missed ultra, missed super and many dropped combos. It just didn't really feel like him. Not that I say that Mochi didn't deserve his win or whatever, he played great.
Yes. I am a bit of a Daigo fan, but I'm not claiming that he "should've won", just saying he missed a lot of stuff in the beginning. Maybe he was just having trouble coping with Mochi. :)
Posted by Balloon on July 16, 2010 at 5:11 p.m. #112
@Psychotic:
That sounds a lot like a "Tiers don't exist" argument. Based on your argument, Ryu has no good matchups anymore either, which is plain ridiculous. I'm not gonna go ahead and agree with everyone else here though. In fact, I will go ahead and agree that Ryu/Dhalsim match is probably close to even, if not entirely so.
My guess as to why Daigo lost: If the last 10-20 people you faced were EVO grunts, and the very last person you played was Ricky Ortiz, well... Mochi might be a tougher fight than you imagined.
Posted by hijahijo on July 16, 2010 at 5:47 p.m. #113
I would bet that if Daigo won this match, we would be seeing 'Ryu is OP' posts instead of 'Bad Ryu matchup' posts. lol.
Posted by bananainsaneface on July 16, 2010 at 6:12 p.m. #114
Psychotic how does Ryu not have bad match ups when his dp is nerfed and no longer has high priority and most of the characters he went even with in SF4 have been buffed specifically to stop Ryu's fireball game. Basically his two biggest offensive tools are shut down in Super.
And I can't believe people complain that Ryu's normals are too good. They are average. Chun Li, Balrog and Bison have way better normals and they are now ranked higher on the tier list.
Posted by Bob on July 16, 2010 at 6:22 p.m. #115
@ Clovr4Lyf
No it was just for fun, think of it as exhibition matches. Dhalsim isn't the only character that can beat Ryu there are others.
I'm glad you decided to shut up since Daigo lost. If he would have won you would complain like no tomorrow.
Posted by Realpolitik on July 16, 2010 at 6:28 p.m. #116
YHC Mochi is f*cking god-like. You people need to give credit where credit is due.
A lot of you are talking about what Daigo should have done. It's extremely easy to commentate on what his gameplan should have been when YOU JUST WATCHED THE WHOLE GOD D*MN SET.
I'm pretty sure Daigo's gameplan would have been better than 99% of what all of you would have done in the same situation.
Therefore criticizing his methods is like implying that if you had his amazing execution, reputation, and extensive experience, and somehow managed to read the future of your match vs. YHC Mochi and formulate a gameplan before it unfolded, you would have won.
I'm confident Daigo would have won if it was first to 15. Well, it wasn't. Now he walks away with more knowledge on YHC's playstyle and the match-up vs. Dhalsim. Get over it, he's human.
Posted by SKZ on July 16, 2010 at 6:54 p.m. #117
Mochi is a very good Dhalsim player. Daigo just lost he is also a human and makes mistakes. All these fanboys talk about Daigo like he has godly skills at both execution and mind games. Insane, yes but not godly. If he was so good at mindreading he could have thrown out a random srk whenever Dhalsim threw out 1 limb. 1 knockdown and Daigo can get in easily and start beasting.
I don't care if the matchup is 6-4 or whatever in Dhalsim's favour. It's Daigo's job to get around it because let's face it, there are 35 chars in the game and if you are hoping for everyone having 5-5 matchups, you are hopelessly wrong. Go back and play sf1 where ken and ryu was a 5-5 matchup.
Daigo fanboys see his classic full parry, or his medium super cancel from srk at full range against Iyo, and automatically assume he is a whole new level from other players. While I give him credit for pulling those great mindreads off, these are impossible to pull off all the time. How many times have you seen any of these being done?
People love flashy stuff. The one that pulls off flashier combos are always the ones getting credits from the fans. Those that focus on keep away, like Dhalsim, have pretty limited options to do flashy stuff in a game especially against Daigo, and thus automatically assume that Dhalsim is boring.
In serious and competitive games, there is more at stake, and nervousness sets in. Against a beastly Dhalsim, having worked your way in for half the game, you would have the pressure of keeping him there. So you would start dropping combos if you can't keep your composure. Having went on a disastrous loss early into the game, Daigo already started to lose some of his composure. Give him the credit for having the strong mind to make a comeback instead of criticizing his bad mistakes on combos.
TLDR: Stop whining about Daigo losing, and give YHC Mochi the credit he fully deserves.
Posted by Realpolitik on July 16, 2010 at 6:59 p.m. #118
@ SKZ
Exactly. These fanboys are so blind to any form of skill that isn't shiny and has a crowd "ooooh-ing" in the back.
Posted by Trance82 on July 16, 2010 at 7:25 p.m. #119
They both played well. The only thing I'm disappointed about is that now I won't be able to see Daigo vs Sako
Posted by mr_e on July 16, 2010 at 7:32 p.m. #120
Big ups for YHC Momochi. Amazing dhalsim. They both played well. Good stuff. I sub dhalsim & its good seeing great zoning & defense. To anyone who ridicules this type of game play know this...before you learn how to attack you need to learn how to defend. Also dhalsim is nowhere near broken. It takes a lot of skill to zone & defend. YHC proved that.
Posted by WG on July 16, 2010 at 7:59 p.m. #121
The only good thing about Daigo losing is that we dont have to hear Clovr4Lyf trolling.
Posted by Psychotic on July 16, 2010 at 8:01 p.m. #122
@Balloon
Nothing I said pointed to a "Tiers don't exist anymore" argument. And yeah, saying Ryu has no good match-ups anymore is ridiculous as the majority of his match-ups are definitely good match-ups. Based on what I've seen, it still looks to me like Ryu has a good match-up against Dhalsim (the airborne tatsus were playing hell and even the ground ones were doing pretty well).
@bananainsaneface
Ryu's DP isn't nerfed. It has gotten some very minor frame alterations. Nerfed is for a move that is no longer usable or has at least been severely downgraded. It's priority was still high enough to completely go through one of Dhalsim's Ultras in the sets played today. When a move does that I'd say the priority level is still pretty high.
As far as "characters he went even with in SF4 have been buffed specifically to stop Ryu's fireball game", could you get back to me with a list of those characters? The last vanilla SFIV tier list I saw didn't put many characters even with Ryu and, with the exception of Rufus' new Ultra, none of them got any changes that do squat to Ryu's fireball game.
As far as Ryu's normals go, yes, taken individually, they are average. Put them together and the whole is definitely better than the sum of its parts.
BTW, could you clarify your last sentence? Are you saying that those three characters are just ranked higher on the tier lists than they were as of the last one from vanilla SFIV?
Posted by DaigosKryptonite on July 16, 2010 at 8:10 p.m. #123
At the end of the video I noticed a bit of smile at Mago's face after Daigo lost. He did not have that "salty" look he had when Daigo always beat him in close games. hahahaha. Anyways YHCmochi played an aggressive defensive Dhalsim.
Posted by Clovr4Lyf on July 16, 2010 at 8:41 p.m. #124
Like someone else said...if it wasnt for money... it wasnt the REAL Daigo!!!
Posted by VegaBisonAbel on July 16, 2010 at 9:03 p.m. #125
I think this did some damage to daigo's pride more than anything else. I bet when he started this competition he thought that he is the best player in japan when you give him a first to 10 game. Now he knows that he is clearly not, Daigo was very very free for most of that.
Still though, this is just online, just a friendly competition. Daigo does shine brightest under pressure(during tourneys).
Posted by Doppler on July 16, 2010 at 9:03 p.m. #126
@Psychotic
I agree with you, I think ryu is the only who have better matches thats the reallity ryu fans, if you play online the 80% are ryu players trust me ;) and the reason is that he dont really have bad matchs
but always will be people who defend ryu cuz he choice ryu is that simple.....
ryu = character for begginers
thats all!!
Posted by Hitstick on July 16, 2010 at 9:28 p.m. #127
Fanboys just don't get it..Daigo has been losing in Japan it's not like when he comes to America where players and tourneys are FREE for him...Nah he always gets beat and challenged hard in japan.
Posted by HukGuay on July 16, 2010 at 10:17 p.m. #128
Yes Daigo loses, but his winning % is one of the highest if not the highest in Japan. But still he does lose nonetheless. I was a little shocked he dropped like 5 games in a row at beginning, but glad he made a comeback attempt. There were some instances in the match where I thought he would have DP the guy cause it kind of obvious mochi was going to stretch his arm, but I guess Daigo gave too much respect to the guy and didn't risk it. GG Daigo. I hope claw wins because that would blow everyone's mind.
Posted by Akro on July 16, 2010 at 10:21 p.m. #129
@ hitstick, Daigo doesn't ALWAYS get beat in japan but he definitely does get challenged.
@ Doppler, you haven't said anything intelligent this whole topic. You're just trolling Ryu users. If you're mad at Ryu because he's probably one of the most balanced characters in the game then you're obviously a moron.
The match imo was highly entertaining. Although I expected Daigo to win because of his ability to adapt, I did consider how bad he does against Dhalsim. As a shoto user myself, I know that a really good Dhalsim is extreme pain to fight against. YHC is this game simply outplayed him. I like Daigo, but that fact is pretty evident in this set.
Posted by Hitstick on July 16, 2010 at 10:35 p.m. #130
@Akro: Nah, Daigo doesn't just get challenged in Japan he also gets beat.
Posted by Vandylizer on July 16, 2010 at 10:51 p.m. #131
I'm a big fan of the Beast, but he made bad reads and dropped some combos (and that happens to all of us but Mochi stayed sharp and outplayed him the first half of the set)
I'm glad Daigo adapted and rushed down on Mochi, it made things very entertaining. But again, when you're down that much against Sim as a Ryu player you really are screwed.
If Daigo had won even just one game earlier and made it say, 7-5 then it might have given him enough to pull out as the winner.
Daigo matches are definitely the kind that end in a double KO :D
Posted by gtfopanda on July 17, 2010 at 12:19 a.m. #132
@ Psychotic 124:
Strictly referring to the Tatsus: I don't really see how they are that great. If you watched the whole fight, you could see how much Daigo struggled with the Air Tatsu's spacing. At times he couldn't even hit the target and got punished. At the end of the day, it's just a jump in, which is easily countered (which is what Mochi did). Same goes for the ground Tatsu, which he primarily used as a OS I believe. He even failed miserably a couple times, trying it from full screen (looked so much XBL lol).
Regarding anti fireball stuff: Rufus'U2, Bison's U2, Abel's U2 are the first which come to my mind, and the fact that those character are arguably top tier should be highly considered. Other top tier retain such antifireball Ultras, see Chun Li or Rog. If I am not mistaken, Dudley's U1, Cody's U1, Ken's U2 and Adon's U1 too work good as anti fireball.
Anyway, I don't see how Ryu-Dhalsim is a good matchup for Ryu, not with Dhalsim getting buffed and Ryu slightly nerfed. One might say it looked 4-6 'cause Daigo got totally outplayed and I may agree to that to some extent (he kept making some bad reads and insisted on a couple things, so he wasn't perfect at all), but there's no way it's in Ryu's favor, in my opinion.
Posted by FarkAydeGhil420 on July 17, 2010 at 1:19 a.m. #133
Damn, I want my Daigo Coupon.
Posted by bananainsaneface on July 17, 2010 at 2:13 a.m. #134
Psychotic
Ryu’s dp use to have six frames of invincibility now it has two. I’d say that is a significant downgrade and it most often loses to jump ins now. It also has been changed to two hits instead of one and you can only FADC out of the first hit so a FADC Ultra combo does less damage than it did in Vanilla. Not to mention the damage of the Ultra itself was reduced as well.
Based on this Vanilla tier list he had 9 even match ups:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/...
Bison, Blanka, Abel , Guile are all match ups that were even but now these characters have new ultras that punish fireballs. The fact that Ryu has been nerfed and most other characters were buffed alone should push some of his even match ups in their favor and bring the uneven ones closer to even. Let's not forget the new characters that have ways around fireballs Ibuki, Adon, Hakan and Dudley for example.
As for the characters I mentioned in my previous post. Yes those characters are ranked higher. With the exception of Balrog who was already considered top tier (except Balrog was not nerfed. Ryu was), but Chun and Bison were C rank and now they are A rank See here for the latest tier list and while you’re at it notice that Ryu has been placed as B rank.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/ju...
Also please enlighten me with your Dhalsim-Ryu strategy. The only way Daigo could get in on Sim was by going crazy dashing in and doing random dps. This got him some games but more often than not he was punished for it. In the long run the Dhalsim player will win more games because they do not have to guess as much as the Ryu player. Arturo and Sanford even admitted this was a tough match up for Ryu and I would take their words over some EventScrubs posters anyday.
Posted by Gameplan on July 17, 2010 at 3:50 a.m. #135
Awesome match, nice comeback from Daigo but it wasn't enough. This just proves (once again) 2 things:
1) All the people that say Ryu is OP in SSF4 are just complete scrubs.
2) Japanese playes are way ahead of American players. Daigo just walked all over SSF4 at EVO last week and now he gets beaten by another top Japanese player.
Definitley looking forward to EVO Japan.
Posted by loasdblopp on July 17, 2010 at 4:13 a.m. #136
All people who loves Daigo, say that Ryu is mid tier and have bad matchups. All people who hates Daigo, say that he is top tier and don't have bad matchups.
Posted by DiegoUmejuarez on July 17, 2010 at 6:46 a.m. #137
my fight moneyyyyyyyyy
Posted by Doppler on July 17, 2010 at 7:26 a.m. #138
I dont hate daigo but lets see this, why are so many many many ryus online??
they always say the same:
a) he has always be my main character
b) I only main ryu
c) you must know how character choice, you dont choice a noob character right?
soooooo nobody answer my question....
and if ryu is balanced then 2/3 of the cast are unbalanced ( if ryu is top tier, that already is, and he is the most balanced, then all the rest escept for the top tiers are unbalanced :S)
capcom have a long way to balance
Posted by Cauptain on July 17, 2010 at 8:47 a.m. #139
Balanced SF games from CRAPCOM??? It´s not possible.
CRAPCOM never more release a balanced game. Seth "slug" Killian says: " I love disbalanced game. It´s a very nice to see low tier won top tier"...Ridiculous mind.
NEO GEO have a better balanced sense for game.
CRAPCOM...I waiting a real SF game, not 3 or EX game named Iv)...Please.
Posted by KiddDynamite on July 17, 2010 at 9:09 a.m. #140
I HAD to set up the account JUST for this topic alone seriously some of Daigo fanboys aren't giving YHC enough credit RYU/DHALSIM is an EVEN match, 50/50, spilt straight down the line. RYU has NO BAD MATCH UPS, every single tier list reflects this.
YHC did remarkable well to zone Daigo and used his character to the full potential and got a clutch win. Diago didn't look like he even KNEW how to fight YHC/Dhalsim, (spamming fireballs is NOT a good idea) he clawed some wins back and gained the momentum but it was a little to late.
Basically RYU has better close range pokes, good counter moves, higher damage output, ability to combo, greater mobilty, corner combo master, several unltra setups, good footsies, mix up game etc than Dhalsim,.
Dhalsim has great anti airs, better long range pokes, good ultra/super setup, good at zoning, defensive beast, good mix up game etc.
Basically its a cat an mouse game if ryu gets close to Sim then its a wrap. If Dhalsim keeps his distance he has the advantage. Ryu has great opportunities against sim, and good Ryu players learn the match up and exploit the advantages. ITS EVEN, YHC was the better player!
Posted by Ethredis on July 17, 2010 at 9:34 a.m. #141
YHC Mochi is a great player, no doubt.
But it's just a simple matter of logic : Dhalsim - Ryu was even in Vanilla, 5 - 5.
In SSFIV, Ryu was heavily nerfed, and Dhalsim stayed the same.
It can't be even anymore, unless we say that previous vanilla match-up was wrong and in Ryu's Favor.
Anyway, I doubt Sanford kelly and Arturo are heavy Daigo fanboys/dickriders to say Dhalsim is a tough match-up for Ryu...
Posted by KiddDynamite on July 17, 2010 at 10:01 a.m. #142
Dhalsim is ONLY a TOUGH MATCH for RYU if they player DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO FIGHT DHALSIM, its simple once the player KNOWS the match up and KNOWS HOW to fight dhalsim the fight is EVEN. Its like C Viper, most good C viper players would probably tear Ryus up because they KNOW how to fight against ryu and know all his moves, but once ryu players learn the match up and know how to effectively counter C vipers moves the match becomes even.
And come of it, RYU didn't recieve THAT much nerfs, NO WAY in same way as sagat, people are exaggerating this to the fullest, he has a reduction on his SRK, trade ultra corrected, and a SLIGHT damage reduction but he is still the same ryu in SF4 and he is STILL top tier with even match ups.
Posted by benjee on July 17, 2010 at 11:05 a.m. #143
@ 144 :
Wow, you wrote so many retarded things that it's hard not to rage.
Posted by Akro on July 17, 2010 at 11:24 a.m. #144
KiddDynamite, you're dumb.
Posted by KiddDynamite on July 17, 2010 at 11:56 a.m. #145
@145
LOLOL Your raging because you HAVE NOTHING to counter my point.
And 146: Your just a retard, end off!
Posted by Doppler on July 17, 2010 at 12:27 p.m. #146
so the retard say that ryu was very nerfed?
hahaha ok lets see...
the trade of ultra- that was a broken OP situacion.
the damage nerf- well everey one have a damage nerf not only ryu
and the most important!! why are so many ryus online??
becuase he dont have bad match ups lol
any one here can give a better answer fot that question of why so many ryus online??
XD
Posted by Gameplan on July 17, 2010 at 1:09 p.m. #147
So now that there's no more trade into ultra and DP got nerfed, what's the new excuse for being stomped by random Ryus online?
Posted by Psychotic on July 17, 2010 at 1:15 p.m. #148
Meh. The comment section could use a quote system to make responding to people easier.
@gtfopanda
"At times he couldn't even hit the target and got punished. At the end of the day, it's just a jump in, which is easily countered (which is what Mochi did)."
Yeah, when Daigo did his spacing wrong and didn't hit, he got punished, no doubt. No move is effective if you screw up the execution. When he did his spacing right I only saw Mochi counter it twice, while ~8 either damaged or weren't countered (saw the whole fight, too long to sit through again to get an exact count).
"Same goes for the ground Tatsu, which he primarily used as a OS I believe. He even failed miserably a couple times, trying it from full screen (looked so much XBL lol). "
Hmmm...so 'When in XBL, do as XBLers do'? (Sorry, couldn't resist).
There's no doubt that Daigo failed his spacing on some of the ground Tatsus as well. They were pretty good when done from mid-range, though. Mochi did counter more of those than the air Tatsus (two for the win on a match, IIRC), but the majority still got through Mochi's zoning. Almost all of Daigo's close Tatsus were EXs, so, no need to discuss how effective that was.
"Regarding anti fireball stuff: Rufus'U2, Bison's U2, Abel's U2 are the first which come to my mind, and the fact that those character are arguably top tier should be highly considered."
Rufus' U2 is anti-just about everything, not just fireballs. I think further discussion on that has been done hundreds of times in the category of 'It should be toned down'.
Bison's U2 is anti-fireball in most situations, but not all, as many people are currently convinced (for instance, it doesn't cover the screen fast enough to punish fireballs at the opposite edge of the screen).
Abel's U2 also isn't as effective at punishing fireballs as many believe. It's certainly a good deterrent to spamming, but not so good when the fireball user gets less predictable. It also flat-out gets stuffed by EX fireballs with that only one hit of armor.
"Other top tier retain such antifireball Ultras, see Chun Li or Rog."
Yes, they do retain those. However, since it is retaining them from vanilla, it doesn't change Ryu's (or anybody else except for Guile) fireball game.
"If I am not mistaken, Dudley's U1, Cody's U1, Ken's U2 and Adon's U1 too work good as anti fireball. "
Sorry, I haven't seen enough of those in action as such to concede this point to you or not.
"but there's no way it's in Ryu's favor, in my opinion."
While you do bring up some good points, I do have to say that, respectfully, my _opinion_ of the match-up remains the opposite of yours.
@bananainsaneface
"I would take their words over some _EventScrubs_ posters anyday."
I was going to reply to the points in your post, until I read this. Since you can't be bothered to analyze evidence presented to you and form your own opinion, I'm not going to waste my time responding to you.
Posted by Portuguese_Heat on July 17, 2010 at 3:13 p.m. #149
so your point is more valid because you analized the evidence? I'm sure the big names analized the game also before putting their view. And like he said, their view is more valid than scrubs here.
Posted by DRain on July 17, 2010 at 7:27 p.m. #150
Scrubby players use Ryu because Daigo uses him. Doesn't mean he's OP by default. Also, he's the freaking main character. There are also a lot of Ken players online, I guess Ken is OP too, right?
Ryu definitely has bad matchups. His shoryuken was nerfed so that it's no longer a solid anti-air move. Following me so far? He can no longer trade into ultra. He can no longer fireball trap into super. And several characters who once went even with him have much better matchups against him now. Abel, Bison, Rufus, and Dhalsim were buffed to compete with fireball wars.
Posted by TCM90 on July 17, 2010 at 9:46 p.m. #151
In my opinion, it does seem like a 6-4 match in Sim's favor. As most people said, just look at the tier list for SF4 and look at the nerfs Ryu got and buffs that Sim got. Pretty simple enough and for non-tier believers, we also have people like Sabin and Sanford that back this.
But in light of this match up, Daigo should of known from previous matchups (Sabin at Salty Suite), that he simply cannot outzone Sim. He should of started from the beginning rushing down on Sim and even here, Ryu isn't that great at rushing. If he had though I'm pretty sure the outcome would of been even closer and a heck of a lot crazier.
Also just wondering, if Mago had won his fight, how would his Fei fare against Daigo anyway?
Posted by DRain on July 17, 2010 at 10:28 p.m. #152
I think the match would be pretty even, because Mago only needs to get 2-3 combos to finish off Daigo, but as we've seen, Daigo can remain calm and turn things around, even when he's getting rushed down. I'm pretty sure several rounds would have come down to the wire and be determined by who can clutch out wins more consistently.
Posted by DRain on July 17, 2010 at 10:44 p.m. #153
Oh, and Mago is also plenty familiar with zoning tactics, so he has that to his advantage, as well. He pulled off numerous convincing victories against Mochi, and overall, fared better against Mochi than Daigo did.
Posted by Clovr4Lyf on July 18, 2010 at 1:57 p.m. #154
I believe Ryu's Ultra was around 500 and now it around 400 thats still around HALF your health gone after the EZmode DP into ultra!
Just because there is LESS of a chance to trade DP into Ultra doesnt mean its gone!!!
He can still ultra off the tatsu and a regular DP! for BIG damage!
BTW...all the h8rs (Ryu players) Go to the Frame Data section here! LOOK AT ALL THE WAYS RYU CAN CANCEL TO A SUPER or ULTRA!
It's like ANY TOUCH leads to BIG DAMAGE!!!
Saying you are a Pro SF4 Ryu is like saying you are the best Yun3/chun Li2/Ken3 player from SF3.... BIG Fn DEAL!!!
Kick ASS with TWELVE, Hakan, Makoto or Yang...THATS a big DEAL!!
Posted by Portuguese_Heat on July 18, 2010 at 4:12 p.m. #155
No point explaining to these guys about ryu easy links. There's to many ryu lovers to agree his high. They complain about lower ultra damage yet disregard all other ultras also lowered. Complain about dp damage lowered but again disregard all other dp style moves lowered also. Trade to ultra should not have been there in the first place unless all others had it also so now its even.
Posted by tokyobassist on July 18, 2010 at 10:45 p.m. #156
Dhalsim wins against Ryu huh? Pretty impressive seeing how that Network Battle Infestation called Ryu is wayyy too versatile to be considered difficult to play. For **** sake every fundamental in SF can be used with Ryu and not every character has the luxury of the perfect anti-air, zoning and 2-1 from ANY normal.
Ryu players should try joining a low-tier club for once and see what a real game with handicaps feel like lol.
I'm not being rude with anybody so don't get angry Weeboo on me.
Posted by Ouchie_Magouchi on July 19, 2010 at 1:04 p.m. #157
I find it so funny that people go on record to show there hate on a player because he selects a "strong" or "higher tier" character. Even more funny when they complain about the game character themselves.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all characters open to all players to select. There is no rule that you have to select a certain player.
I think this Daigo / Mochi match has shown us that a "great" player can beat a supposed superior character with a less superior character. And Daigo is no slouch with Ryu.
Posted by Doppler on July 19, 2010 at 1:27 p.m. #158
@Ouchie_Magouchi
yep thats right all players can select all the character, and if most people select ryu is because they need that easy character to fight, if they select a low tier they are just trash ;)
anyway I will still choice vega and adon, because a dont need that begginer character, only begginers choice ryu, but if thet like the ryu style why dont choice ken? xD
cuz is low compared to ryu :P
viva those begginers who need ryu to stand a chance in this game!!!!!
Posted by DRain on July 19, 2010 at 2:41 p.m. #159
*sigh* If you lose to said beginners, then you yourself are just a beginner. Ryu isn't a free win by any stretch of imagination. If you don't lose to said beginners, then I have no idea what you're complaining about. Beginner-friendly =/= overpowered. EVERY fighting game has beginner-friendly characters. But few of them are really overpowered. You guys might get tired of seeing the same characters online, but that's the way things roll. Beginners will often choose Ryu because they think he is an easy win. But just because beginners think that, doesn't mean you should. People have complained about Ryu since SF2. But those were the scrubs, the ones with a "code of honor", the ones who cry "cheap!" at everything they can't beat. The pros acknowledged that some strategies are more effective than others, then devoted their time to countering those strategies. Street Fighter wouldn't be where it is today if people had established "honorable" rules like "no fireball spam", "no throws", etc. Do you mean to tell me that you are one of those players?
You guys keep saying you KNOW Ryu is overpowered and whatnot, but all the pros KNOW that he isn't. I'm willing to trust the word of top pros more than the word of a couple of online players who still have trouble playing against scrubby Ryus. BAW some less and learn to get around pattern play.
Let me ask you guys something. Why do you keep referencing all the scrubby Ryus online as proof that he's overpowered, yet completely ignore the fact that very few pros use Ryu? If Ryu was so overpowered, then how come only a few pros use him? How come there were so many more players using Rufus and Abel in the top 32 at Evo? And don't give me that "They have a code of honor" crap, because in a serious tournament like Evo, no serious player will have some kind of code of honor for what character they choose.
Posted by Ouchie_Magouchi on July 20, 2010 at 5:59 a.m. #160
@Doppler
You're funny... you talk about beginners select Ryu because he's an easy character to use, but how is a beginner to know whom of the 32 selectable characters are easy to use. Could it be they select the character that is the face of the franchise...??? And in regards to your comment about selecting Ken, I personnally use Sagat which is in the same style as Ryu. And he was considered the best character in SF4, yet all we hear about re guys like you that bash Ryu.
It's funny that you guys say that low tier characters are at a disadvantage. I dare you to go head-to-head with GamerBee's Adon with Ryu and tell me how you make out. If you watched EVO this year, you would see that only one RYU player made it to the final 8.
@ DRain
Good post... I agree. If all you guys complain about losing to scrub Ryu players online, it's because you are not at the level you need to be with your preferred character. That means, you need more practice or select another character.
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