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Get Your Tournament's Super Street Fighter 4 tournament tier list

Posted by Jonathan 'Catalyst' Grey • August 3, 2010 at 9:03 p.m. PDT
Get Your Tournament's Super Street Fighter 4 tournament tier list Singh31 mentioned that Get Your Tournament has created an interesting tier list for Super Street Fighter 4.

Instead of taking the typical approach, which the tier list on this site uses, a database of more than 5,000 rounds of competitive play was compiled together and this new project was created.

This offers a pretty different look at things than most tier lists you've probably seen. Here's a sample of the top 6, you can see the rest by clicking the link above.

Leave a comment below with your thoughts on this approach and the outcome.

Comments

Struggs said on August 3, 2010 at 9:08 p.m.

I think this is a welcome change of approach. Although I'm still a bigger fan of the original tier lists with match up information, I like this style because it seems more representative of the tournament scene.

#1
zxzxz said on August 3, 2010 at 9:19 p.m.

should filter it to only include say the top 10 players per character by win pct.

#2
KAZZNORE said on August 3, 2010 at 9:20 p.m.

Dhalsima s the thumbnail. haha i see where this is going.

#3
BlankaBeast said on August 3, 2010 at 9:22 p.m.

I like the different approach too, another perspective anyway. Sim is good.

#4
RagingApocalypse said on August 3, 2010 at 9:26 p.m.

At least it built on statistics.
No room to really argue.

But, people will find a way to complain...

#5
akillyz said on August 3, 2010 at 9:35 p.m.

w00t! the claw at 10! he kicks so much ass in super!

#6
Sturmgeist13 said on August 3, 2010 at 9:43 p.m.

I don't take tier lists too seriously but as far as competitive play goes this list looks a whole lot more accurate than the one here on Eventhubs.

#7
HukGuay said on August 3, 2010 at 9:47 p.m.

true ryu is near the top but if you look at winning % he isn't good at all.

#8
_MJ_ said on August 3, 2010 at 9:47 p.m.

this list really holds no merit...

---------------------
http://gfbnews.blogspot.com/

#9
SSJ3X said on August 3, 2010 at 9:49 p.m.

Welps... At least Sakura isn't dead last lol...

I do like the concept though, its a very good approach that shows how things maybe differently. While the Tier list on here isn't bad also and shows that certain characters can be better, the GYT model does a good representation of showing who could really be the strongest when played with enough patience for the win.

#10
shakumafu said on August 3, 2010 at 9:57 p.m.

I'm confused, I don't understand how rating is determined. Anyone care to explain? It seems to me like it should be ordered by win rate.

#11
Lolento said on August 3, 2010 at 10 p.m.

@#6 RagingApocalypse
By definition, this statistical list can't really be wrong (nor definitive), it's just biased towards its sample data. But people have every right to disagree on the relevance of said sample.

I just have two complaints (nits) on this presentation: using a picture rather than a table, and Win % and Usage % aren't percentages, but ratios (though they'd be better shown as percentages).

#12
stubbs said on August 3, 2010 at 10:03 p.m.

There's only like 3 competitive Dhalsims and they're all godlike. One is one of the best players on the east coast, one is one of the best players on the west coast, and the other made top 8 at Evo.

#13
VegaBisonAbel said on August 3, 2010 at 10:19 p.m.

lol at ryu getting a higher rating just because of the number of people who use him. for a supposed top-tier character he has a pretty bad win pct

#14
JohnJohnson said on August 3, 2010 at 10:20 p.m.

If you look at Adon his Win% is .59 but his usage is .019. That tells me that even thought Adon is winning, almost no one picks him, so a lot of people don't even know the match up. Kind of the same thing with Ryu, but reversed. He has a .498 win% but his usage is .092. That tells me he's used, a lot, but the majority of people picking him aren't that good, at least, when compared to someone like Daigo. It also proves that people in the US just want easy wins. A lot of the characters with high usage% are easy to use and win with. What was that thing Phil said about Sagat, and how "were people picking him because they were good, or was it because he was broken." Look at Sagat usage%, .044.

#15
JohnJohnson said on August 3, 2010 at 10:21 p.m.

correction, .0418

#16
Lolento said on August 3, 2010 at 10:26 p.m.

@#16 Cornwad
One or two Hakan matches is not enough, there needs to be a significant amount of play. Also, Dan's number just means he has <0.1% usage, probably <0.05%. Hakan could conceivably have even less use, though I agree this is quite unlikely.

#17
DRain said on August 3, 2010 at 10:27 p.m.

My biggest issue with this list is that it's based almost solely on character usage. Based on how they sample, there's a very good chance that they kept record of the same players multiple times; in other words, some characters can be higher tier because there are more matches of one player in the sample than matches of another player that choose a different character.

The other issue with rankings based heavily on character usage is that a small sample of the current lower-tier characters can't be used as an accurate measure. This kind of sampling might work better later on, but when some characters are being used in single digits out of a sample of thousands, the statistics are VERY likely to be inaccurate.

#18
kornbeaner said on August 3, 2010 at 10:40 p.m.

@Cornwad how about you visit the site of the list before complaining. The reason Hakan is not on the list is because the compiler for the list has not seen tourney vids of Hakan. Unlike the previous list where the compilers looked for educated inputs from the community, all stats on this list come from over 5000 rounds of actual video. The compiler for this list sat through 5000+ rounds of footage to compile this list and on his website he ask if anybody has Hakan footage so he can update this list. Yeah he could've easily asked two or three high level players to play some rounds with Hakan for the sake of the list but then that throws the value of this list out the window. These stats are from Tourneys and if you have some Hakan tourney vids how about you help instead of complain.

#19
Bookerjj said on August 3, 2010 at 10:54 p.m.

@#18 Johnjohnson
"It also proves that people in the US just want easy wins"

What the kinda statement is that. In reality the world think like that, EVERY country. Stop trying to put the US down, when other counties do the same if not more. God forbid Japan not having 20 Sagats on their top 50 list in SF4, or i guess you think only the U.S. only play with Chung and yung in 3rd strike, nope not japan -_-, Geez man......

#20
Bookerjj said on August 3, 2010 at 11:05 p.m.

@22 Cornwad
Obviously the man didn't see it, he is human, if you read his article then point out the vid to the man. This is something new he is trying to do, and If you read his article it will never be "finish" as he will keep updating it every 1000 rounds he get.... There is always a back seat driver

#21
jesuslovessatan said on August 3, 2010 at 11:09 p.m.

this is a chill list. nothing made up or non-relavent, just the facts. this list is made of matches that have already happened. and since its tourny info it counts. most matches are probably legit when you consider skill of player cause the players reaching the top will play more matches hince matches recorded for the list.

take that Hitstick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#22
spotlesseden said on August 3, 2010 at 11:22 p.m.

my first question is where are the source? just random online vids? from what tournaments and when?

#23
kornbeaner said on August 3, 2010 at 11:22 p.m.

@Cornwad

Its obvious you are not an active part of the fighting game community since you've pretty much just crapped on a guy who is very well respected in the community. Glen, the guy who put this list together records matches, watches matches and breaks them down the way one would a sport. He is an average guy with a job who does all this for the love of the community nobody pays him, yet he treats this just as serious as a job, god forbid he had to work the one time"a Hakan" made it onto the EVO mainstream. Plus if you bothered going to his site you would know he plans on updating this list every 1000 rounds or so that we have a nice up to date reference point. Since you seem to think this list is garbage how about you come up with one that makes sense.

#24
GSwag said on August 3, 2010 at 11:29 p.m.

lol, 18 thinks the idiot dss is right. his whole argument was that US had a top tier mentality while other places didnt. um like one post said japan had like 50 million sagats. US barely had no sagats, how many top players played sagat as their main in sf4? li flippin joe and thats it, floe and sanford played him too but they play like half the cast in tourneys. has nvr placed top 8 in sh!t, noone gives a flying f*ck about sf2, i hope sirlin does another flippin super mega ultra hd 5000 g-mix street fight 2 and split the sf2 community up in three groups. which would be like what? four guys in each game?

#25
Makavelo said on August 4, 2010 at 12:02 a.m.

I think this list its more legit than any other tier list, at least this one is based on actual tournament results.

Nice job by Glenn for taking the time to do this

#26
MrPjSyrup said on August 4, 2010 at 12:14 a.m.

The Majority of the most used characters play the lame game.. how ironic.. i guess i have to out cheese the cheeser.. and turtle on the life lead.. America taking the easy way out.

#27
Bookerjj said on August 4, 2010 at 12:22 a.m.

@30 Cornwad
Dude, then help him he is putting this out there for the community, if you read, he is asking for feedback and support. You say he could've waited, waited for what? Waited for YOU to see something that not on his list, Geez man, what if he never saw it. Like the man said if the vids are out there send him in that direction. By your standards he will never have all the statistics.

Especially with people like you complaining about not having this, even if he did find your one hakan player. You probably would've saw a random video of hakan (or any char.) playing at a Evo pool match on youtube and took 30secs. out of your day to type 'he is unprofessional for not finding this match, his data is incomplete,' instead of using those same 30secs. to email him a link to where you saw the match.

#28
Bookerjj said on August 4, 2010 at 12:28 a.m.

@MrPjSyrup
"The Majority of the most used characters play the lame game.. how ironic.. i guess i have to out cheese the cheeser.. and turtle on the life lead.. America taking the easy way out."

Am i really the only one that see every other country doing the same thing, Even the almighty Japan more-so than anywhere else. Get off America's dick.

#29
kornbeaner said on August 4, 2010 at 12:34 a.m.

I found the match, So now cornwad can be happy. I linked it over so maybe Glenn can hot fix the list and not have any blank spots cause we all know how "unprofessional" that is. O_o

Anyways big ups to Glenn this list not only shows the current strength of characters used but also shows how the current scene looks. I bet in three months the scene will look different.

#30
xShonuffx said on August 4, 2010 at 2:18 a.m.

#30 Conwad

Apparently the world revolves around you so no one can do anything without your approval. The guy is doing this on his OWN. No one is paying him and surly your not paying him either, as a matter of fact your benifiting from his conributions, for FREE. People can be so selfish, they think things should work the way they want and nothing else matters. So sad.

And for those upset with the Hakan data you need to find the tournaments that have Hakan players in them. Also if you main Hakan you need to participate in more tournaments with Hakan as your main so he is acounted for. I just did a local tournament at my Play N' Trade and almost got knocked out by a very calculating Hakan so good Hakan players are out there but you gotta find them.

#31
Smorgasboard said on August 4, 2010 at 3:35 a.m.

Isn't this less of a tier list and more of a ranking list on how well characters are doing competitively?

#32
TheMasterPlayer said on August 4, 2010 at 4:13 a.m.

@37 Smorgasboard

yea, I was wondering about the same thing.

#33
J said on August 4, 2010 at 4:32 a.m.

Characters with bad rep don't get played in tournaments, so they will never climb up in this list. I prefer character-vs-character match-up based tiers.

#34
IrPanda said on August 4, 2010 at 4:43 a.m.

Makoto and Adon have the best usage to win ratio

#35
ds123 said on August 4, 2010 at 5:14 a.m.

@40

Usage-to-win ratio???? Are you now just making crap up - dividing random columns by the other just because it seems right to do?

Who cares about that. It could mean very solid characters like Ryu don't get to shine because they are too popular and the win% goes down because the lower level players all use him.

Or it could mean a character is very very very mediocre - 50% win rate, and he's just used so infrequently the usage goes down and you have a huge ratio.

#36
Banzai said on August 4, 2010 at 5:20 a.m.

This is how the tier list has supposed to be. Dhalsim got so buuffed!

#37
TheShotokan said on August 4, 2010 at 5:54 a.m.

(This user was banned.)

#38
juxtapose said on August 4, 2010 at 6:01 a.m.

While I do think that this tier list should be taken with as many grains of salt as any other, it's definitely interesting. I never did like the "match-up" style tier lists, because it only shows how the character would fare overall (assuming every character is an equally likely choice for your opponent), rather than how they stack up against the more commonly used characters. In other words, characters with bad matchups versus the top-picked fighters should be weighted more heavily than those who only have bad match-ups against characters that no one ever uses (ie. A character's match-up versus Ryu or Sagat is more important than his/her match-up versus Gen or Sakura). This tier list kind of addresses that.

It also has more basis in real data than pure opinion. Sure, the data isn't perfect, and nowhere near a large enough sample to be truly conclusive, but it still holds some weight. I would love to see more statistics like this.

#39
dcsrar said on August 4, 2010 at 6:18 a.m.

I think that the data are well collected but badly interpreted. According to my interpretation:

1. akuma
2. honda
3. rufus
4. dictator
5. dhalsim
6. ryu

#40
L45R said on August 4, 2010 at 7:13 a.m.

Sim is the 2nd most used of all characters in tournaments?! I'm quite shocked by that.

Ryu being first at 9.2% seems right.

I too welcome this approach...this seems more accurate than eventhubs for sure. Just a few shockers, one of them is Sim is used so frequently and Claw all the way up there.

There are definitely a few errors though...Dan has 0% usage? I know there is at least 1 Hakan player at EVO this year unless it's not counted? But how can you not count EVO?!?

#41
Bookerjj said on August 4, 2010 at 8:10 a.m.

@L45R #46
Just read the mans article, he most likely didn't see it, so just point it out to him.

But i will agree with others, this is not a exactly a tier list just a ratio of who and what is being done during tournaments, which either way is pretty neat to see.

#42
CONSTvariable23 said on August 4, 2010 at 8:58 a.m.

I think this is a very interesting way to do things, and of significant value when it comes to determining overall trends in the tournament community. However, I do not think it is a good way to determine which characters are best. The sampling is biased in that players with little skill are more inclined to pick high tier, easy to use characters as a crutch, while the few players who use weaker characters tend to be *very* good with them.

Look at the list there, Makoto wins more often than Ryu and Akuma. Even if the prevailing opinion is wrong and Makoto is a decent character, she certainly isn't as good as that. But anyone who plays Makoto in a tournament has to be good to get anywhere, and has the additional advantage of opponents not knowing the matchup. In Ryu's case, I submit that he loses so often because he is an extremely popular choice among scrubs. And Dhalsim is probably on top because he is simultaneously A. quite a good character, and B. too hard for scrubs to use.

There's quite a lot of psychology involved that statistics are ill-equipped to convey. And I had something else to say, but I forgot... oh well.

#43
DomDaDude said on August 4, 2010 at 9:35 a.m.

AH AH! PROOF! Dan is worst tier because no one uses him >:O

#44
DjGriever said on August 4, 2010 at 11:22 a.m.

ibuki is 20 ? wow...

and Dhalsim top tier ?! well i can see it since he is practically untouchable.

#45
Hitstick said on August 4, 2010 at 12:20 p.m.

Seth Killian [CAPCOM]: "It's always about the player not the character."

Tier list don't exist.

#46
trauma213 said on August 4, 2010 at 12:34 p.m.

this is getting closer to what a true tier list should be. Based on match data not player speculation.

#47
IrPanda said on August 4, 2010 at 12:51 p.m.

@40
Relax i didn't mean Makoto or Adon was top tier, i was just pointing out that they have the best usage to win ratios.

This only infers that mostly good players tend to play as them . Nothing else .

#48
IrPanda said on August 4, 2010 at 1 p.m.

@hitlist they do exist there are a coupe of them on the site :S.....
Are you trying to dispute that characters dont have advantages over others

#49
Bookerjj said on August 4, 2010 at 1:36 p.m.

@IrPanda
"Relax i didn't mean Makoto or Adon was top tier, i was just pointing out that they have the best usage to win ratios.
This only infers that mostly good players tend to play as them . Nothing else ."

You may be right but honestly i think its more of the other player not knowing the matchup. I mean good players are good players, but even if a good player that doesn't know a matchup went against a player a decent "not-so-popular-char" they will have some trouble if they do not know how to adjust properly.

#50
BUTTLORD said on August 4, 2010 at 1:46 p.m.

It's funny to me that new SSF4 characters don't even hit this tier list until you get to Cody at #16. This just proves that we haven't had enough time to fully explore these characters, not that they are bad and can't break into the top 10. There is no way that all of them are mid-bottom tier.

#51
BlankaBeast said on August 4, 2010 at 2:18 p.m.

Why doesnt this just sort/go by win % only?

#52
DRain said on August 4, 2010 at 2:38 p.m.

@58 The thing is, as some people pointed out, some characters have higher win ratios because the only people who play those characters are the ones who are really good with them. The other thing is that since so few people use those characters, there's a good chance that the win ratio isn't such an accurate reflection of how good the character is, since the sample of players using the character is too small to get accurate results.

#53
jjohan35 said on August 4, 2010 at 3:50 p.m.

I love it how the folks who know almost nothing about mathematical statistics think this list/table is factual and accurate simply because there are a bunch of percentages or ratios.

All I see is a direct/linear correlation between win % and usage %, which is a red flag for bias. Dhalsim could be at the top simply because the bulk of his opponents are Ryu for all we know.

Tier lists based on character matchups, in my opinion, are far more revealing than this table. It's likely to be skewed by the sheer number of folks using Dhalsim and Ryu because those are the two mostly used characters (according to this list), therefore the most likely opponents that every other character on this list is fighting against.

#54
IrPanda said on August 4, 2010 at 5:07 p.m.

@jjohan35
If that is true how come Makoto and Adon has a higher win ratio that ryu???

@Bookerjj
That maybe true. But ( this is a personal opinion) i believe that Adon is really great (dont play him so i cant go into detail) and Makoto well although she has 32 bad match ups and only 2 even ones ( according to the most recent tier list) i believe he power lays in her top notch comeback ability. So even if you are losing the entire match it is possible to make a come back at any time.

#55
DRain said on August 4, 2010 at 8:04 p.m.

@IrPanda That's because so few people actually use those characters, the data sample is not big enough to get an accurate measure of how good the characters actually are. It could be that the few people who use those characters happen to be quite good with them. I'm sure their win ratios would be significantly different if there were more players using those characters.

#56
IrPanda said on August 4, 2010 at 9:17 p.m.

@drain
Im not sure what ur trying to dispute .

#57
jjohan35 said on August 4, 2010 at 9:22 p.m.

Did you not read what I wrote? Not only did I say that there's a correlation (which allows outliers) between usage % and win %, this list also more than likely reveals the performance of each character against Ryu and Dhalsim since they are the most used characters according to this list. Therefore this list is inaccurate and could possibly be biased based on matchups against Ryu and Dhalsim, regardless of character.

The list isn't necessarily inaccurate. It is however not reliable nor credible.

#58
DRain said on August 4, 2010 at 9:24 p.m.

@IrPanda Sorry, should've clarified that. I was trying to explain why characters like Makoto and Adon had such high win ratios.

#59
IrPanda said on August 4, 2010 at 9:30 p.m.

what about the others who are used less than them but have lower win ratios?

#60
DRain said on August 4, 2010 at 9:54 p.m.

Inaccuracies can go both ways. It could be that some characters just aren't that good, but either way, the data is probably not that accurate for those characters, either.

#61
kornbeaner said on August 4, 2010 at 10:07 p.m.

Since I see a few people complaining about this list and can't bother to click the link to read the explanation behind the numbers and wonder where all this data came from here's a little sample of where the 5000+ rounds of data came from.

"3. There's a wide range of matches that have
counted toward this. Among the events have
been broadcasts from Striderzer0 (SoCal), Team
Spooky (East Coast), iPlayWinner (NorCal), and the
Pacific Northwest, and several international
tournaments. I don't cherrypick matches. When I
see a tournament, I chart as many matches as
possible from it. So if a tournament happens to
have a lot of Sakuras, it just happens and I chart it."

There's no bias here, theres no opinion like in the Mago, Momochi tier list. These are real number taken from what scene currently looks like, if you don't like it start hitting up tourneys with hakan and dan and send them over to get charted. Anyways good job glenn for performing such a thankless job for the fighting game community.

#62
IrPanda said on August 5, 2010 at 1:09 a.m.

@kornbeaner

So your saying who is top tier based on this list?
And if ur not saying anyone then kool :).

But if you are saying that someone is, this list is still some what opinionated in the fact that a character gets a higher rank when he used more. The would be a general overall bias to either the more popular characters or easy to use.

Imo the only think that should matter is the percentage of times a certain character win not how much times they are picked because it doesn't take into account if better players happen to play with them or if all around "scrubs" tend to pick the character.

That variable should be removed because then it just becomes inconsistent. It should be what about this or what about that, all incalculable variables should be moved to have the most accurate list and if it is included it should be put at the side instead of used to calculated the "ranking".

And those character who have not won any should only be included if the have more play counts than the least played character with wins to the name.

#63
kornbeaner said on August 5, 2010 at 3:17 a.m.

@IrPanda

The way I'm looking at this tier list is gonna be a little bit different for the reason that I go to few tourneys when I have the money. I'm a Honda main and a Adon secondary and I know my personal weak match-ups. So this tier list is not going to change those match-ups for me.

The way I'm looking at this tier list is as a stat to the unknown. I live in SoCal so for example if at some point in a tourney I face Alex Valle's Ryu I know I'm in for an uphill battle. But say at a tourney I run into a casual Ryu player, from this tier list I now have a mindset "I don't who this guy is, so he's either a scrub or mid-tier player" and from there we play. Now say for example at a tourney I run into a Dhalsim player, from this list I'm going with a little more of a cautious mindset because the numbers are showing that players who play with Sim tend to be very efficient with him, plus sim in general tends to be one of my tougher personal match-ups.

So while the list shows the characters in numeric order, I'm not taking this Tier list as a character tier list, I'm taking this list more as a Tourney Tier list. If I'm at a tourney, mentally I can prepare myself based on these numbers. Ryu(outside of top players) = an overused character who I can beat. Dhalsim = a character who's players tend to very efficient and I have to be cautious of until I know for sure the players skill level.

Again this is just the way I'm looking at this list, no character is all powerful but the players heading to tourneys using these characters seem to be better defined by this tier list.

#64
jjohan35 said on August 5, 2010 at 4:07 a.m.

People always assume 'bias' is personal opinion that gets involved in any numerical study. That's not true. There are such things as selection bias, systemic and systematic bias, spectrum bias, etc.

"what about the others who are used less than them but have lower win ratios?"

That is exactly my point. There is a variability there: it is not necessarily taken into account and we don't know if the spectrum is distributed at either end evenly in order to cancel out that variability.

#65
IrPanda said on August 5, 2010 at 7:35 a.m.

@kornbread

Oh well i guess it kinda doesn't apply to me since i dont live in the US......-_-.
I get you point though

#66
YourEveryDayJackAss said on August 7, 2010 at 2:29 p.m.

Lol, no one uses Dan? BLASPHEMY! Gonna need Xiahou Mao's awesome Dan to win some tourneys.

#67


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