12:59 p.m.
Seth: No guard crush, but SSF4 will be more offensive
According to Capcom Community Manager, Seth Killian, Super Street Fighter 4 is going to be a more aggressive game overall than Street Fighter 4 was.
While exact details aren't given, this is welcomed news for those of you who felt like the game was too defensive before.
Here's the run down from the Unity Boards.
Daigo Umehara said Street Fighter 4 should of had a guard break bar like there was in Street Fighter Alpha 3. The game is too defensive without this.
Seth: Yes, a lot of people have had this same idea, and after not mentioning anything for 9 months or so after release, they all coincidentally had it after Daigo mentioned it in an interview :P
Although I like a lot of things about Guard Crush, there are no plans to implement the system in Street Fighter at the moment.
That said, I think you'll find Super Street Fighter 4 has become a more aggressive game overall, with plenty of reasons not to spend too much time blocking... just wait and see. Muhahaha!
Posted by skid5jack on December 22, 2009 at 1:18 p.m. #1
I dont think this is a bad thing.
Not surprised Daigo said that.
Posted by Giubo on December 22, 2009 at 1:19 p.m. #2
I hope really, i think SF4 was a little bit turtle style :(
Posted by Rush on December 22, 2009 at 1:21 p.m. #3
Gonna rush all ur butts with makoto
Posted by Deeznuts on December 22, 2009 at 1:25 p.m. #4
@ Rush
Sweet XD
I think being more offensive is a good thing. I'm sure you could gain more experience from that.
Posted by TSmoov49 on December 22, 2009 at 1:26 p.m. #5
I never knew S-Kill had an evil laugh.
Posted by Famitsu New Chars on December 22, 2009 at 1:27 p.m. #6
VG chartz article has all the new chars confirmed by Famitsu
Posted by yournizzle on December 22, 2009 at 1:28 p.m. #7
Hope your right seth but i like the idea of a guard break I think they should at least test it before they throw it out the window.
Posted by heero on December 22, 2009 at 1:30 p.m. #8
you will see alot of focus cancels then if there would be a guard crush :]
Posted by Jack on December 22, 2009 at 1:32 p.m. #9
Yeah, at least test guard crush. That would be so much fun and add alot to the game experience.
Posted by Gief_Mobile on December 22, 2009 at 1:33 p.m. #10
I wonder how the game will be more aggressive. What systems have been in past SF games that could be in Super SFIV? Or will this be a brand new system?
Could there be something new about the ultras that make it more offensive? Anyone have any idea about this?
Posted by Jack on December 22, 2009 at 1:33 p.m. #11
It would add a whole new use for focus cancelling
Posted by Giubo on December 22, 2009 at 1:33 p.m. #12
Naa i think Focus Attack is already good to break the guard ;)
Posted by Giubo on December 22, 2009 at 1:35 p.m. #13
to Gief_Mobile: Seth in some interview said that the game is a little bit faster, also the jumps, also the Focus Attack is faster to land.
Maybe that can make the game more aggressive like SSF2turbohd remix
Posted by Greedy McNasty on December 22, 2009 at 1:41 p.m. #14
Only time will tell. I would love to believe there is another character added. Find out Thursday for sure.
Posted by ActualProof on December 22, 2009 at 1:46 p.m. #15
I shutter when the devs say theres going to be more offensive capabilities without implementing new systems. So we have wall bounce, but how does that hurt the turtle gameplay.
Posted by prorook on December 22, 2009 at 1:58 p.m. #16
Eh...turtling doesn't really have to be just blocking anyway. Ryu players turtle all day but they have their safe c.mk>hadoken that they spam all day. Sagats playing defensively are still spamming tiger shots and fierce kicks. I'd love to know how they plan to work around that.
Posted by daigo on December 22, 2009 at 2 p.m. #17
man screw that. I said that game was 2 defensive after i spent 3 99 second rounds online XD
Posted by @prorook on December 22, 2009 at 2:01 p.m. #18
thats zone not defensive
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 2:03 p.m. #19
Seriously, seth better not be bsing. I mean who could they make the game more agressive? Unless they take the game and bring it back to the basics like turbo, taking away auto guard,crouch tech, shrinking reversal windows, taking away short cuts and shrinking the stages. If its true this is the best news i have heard about the game and im sure alot of my friends that droped it because of the turtle fest will get right back in.
Posted by classy on December 22, 2009 at 2:03 p.m. #20
the hell is skill saying? we all said it after daigo? weve been calling it turtle fighters for a really long time
Posted by ¿? on December 22, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. #21
@6 VG chartz just regurgitated the same unfounded news that iPlayWinner posted (and later erased without notice) from Wii @ Everyday. Zero proof so far.
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. #22
@classy
Yea, it sucks that it takes diago to say it for them to pay attention. About a month after release Tons of people started complaining that this game was a turtlers fantasy. I really hope seth isnt bsing and that the the agro rush down style becomes more valid again.
Posted by justin wong on December 22, 2009 at 2:08 p.m. #23
what am i going to do if i cant turtle? :(
Posted by iwty4ar on December 22, 2009 at 2:12 p.m. #24
Play Mahbel babeee
Posted by James on December 22, 2009 at 2:18 p.m. #25
Should have, not should of.
Posted by Megatonbeef on December 22, 2009 at 2:29 p.m. #26
I'm already a very aggressive fighter and honestly i find people who turtle easier to beat then opponents who fight back. I tend to bring to bring the agro out of my rivals.
Posted by FOOLS! on December 22, 2009 at 2:31 p.m. #27
No one thought to look at #6's comment?
http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=...
Posted by HiryuMK on December 22, 2009 at 2:32 p.m. #28
I do see many Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sagat and Guile spamming their projectiles from the other side of the screen.
Posted by FOOLS! on December 22, 2009 at 2:35 p.m. #29
Yes. 80% of the matches I play start with my opponent jumping back as far as they can and start throwing projectiles. While I proceed to rush them down.
Posted by @16 on December 22, 2009 at 2:42 p.m. #30
Turtling isn't Ryu and Sagat throw fireballs at you. An example of turtling is when Honda just sits in one place and hold down back and pretty much counters everything you throw at him. Guard crush won't fix this cause you won't be able to get in on a good turtle enough to break his guard. Speeding up the gameplay so its harder to react is the best way to make the game offensive.
Posted by 3lectric on December 22, 2009 at 2:42 p.m. #31
i think they shouldve incorporated guard crush and the stun meter from sf3..
but yea.. w/e haha
Posted by EMN on December 22, 2009 at 2:47 p.m. #32
More offensive but no gaurd crush... hmmm... my guess is that they will just use the "negative penalty" system from Guilty Gear.
Posted by BUT on December 22, 2009 at 2:47 p.m. #33
IF THEY DO THE GUARD CRUSH THEY DEFINETLY
NEED TO FIX KARA THROWS
Posted by uhm... on December 22, 2009 at 2:49 p.m. #34
Give everyone a fast overhead!
Posted by ZdaPi on December 22, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. #35
@37 - i hear ya brother
Posted by TJHooker on December 22, 2009 at 2:57 p.m. #36
@28 I did broth...LOL i actually found this post the only one to have sense...OMG yours is second...
Posted by Akumous on December 22, 2009 at 2:58 p.m. #37
We'd debated about this several times and yes a guard break bar system similar to SFA3 is needed. SFIV as it is doesn't penalized defensive play but punishes offensive, since those with the best defensive style always have a higher chance of winning.
Posted by sf4 sucks on December 22, 2009 at 2:59 p.m. #38
confirmed by s-kill:
-Throws will still be garbage in SF4 and easily teched with crouch option selecting.
-No guard crush in SF4.
Why the hell should we believe s-kill the freaking PUBLIC RELATIONS guy? I don't believe him one bit. Of course he's just saying this without any proof.
The only thing s-kill confirmed was faster FA's. Is this enough and will this really make SF4 a less turtle game? We'll find out...
Posted by ActualProof on December 22, 2009 at 3:10 p.m. #39
In retrospect the problem with guard crush is that as it stands now in SF4 characters like sagat, boxer, dictator, rufus have a lot of safe on block pressure combos. These guys not to mention being he top tier opponents will literally just jail you until your guard breaks and then ruin your day... rinse and repeat...
An alpha counter could fix that but alpha can't be used frequently and and the sagat tiger knee pressure would continue. A parry system is needed that is more than just a focus guard.
The problem with this game being too offensive now is that i see it turning into Tekken 6 which the main purpose is to jus jam your opponent. There has to be balance.
Posted by Ninja Man on December 22, 2009 at 3:11 p.m. #40
I think S-Kill is just lying. I don't think that Super SF 4 will be any less turtle style then SF 4. Be prepared to be disappointed everyone.
Posted by hmmm... on December 22, 2009 at 3:16 p.m. #41
To tell you the truth I hardly run into turtlers while playing online. There are very few chars that can do it effectively anyway. But when I do, I do find it to be a tougher fight than usual. I'm curious as to how they will make the game more offensive. It's will not be easy to make the game more offensive without encouraging randomness and recklessness.
Posted by Christo on December 22, 2009 at 3:16 p.m. #42
gaurd crush wouldnt work well for some characters, it would give e.honda another problem in his sagat matchup, also dhalsim and vega can get pinned down with blockstrings once you get close with som1 like ryu.
i wonder if everyone will get a standing overhead attack that can link into a good combo like a few characters can, balrog can link a combo into ultra from his overhead smash. if SSFIV becomes more aggresive they need to addapt the characters that usualy have to play deffencively like e.honda and guile.
Posted by zl on December 22, 2009 at 3:27 p.m. #43
take out auto guard and the huge reversal windows, those two things are the biggest contributors to turtling
Posted by SureYouCan! on December 22, 2009 at 3:32 p.m. #44
Maybe Seth is hinting a Tadan Saving that was on the rumor list (multiple-level Focus Attack).
Posted by @44 on December 22, 2009 at 3:36 p.m. #45
True. And lets not forget about auto correct. If your gonna throw out a reversal you should at least know what direction your gona throw it in. C'mon Capcom.
Posted by Shadow?! on December 22, 2009 at 3:47 p.m. #46
Evil Charlie hell yea! Any Charlie is good Charlie!
Posted by Danjitsu on December 22, 2009 at 3:48 p.m. #47
Seth is having a laugh I myself posted on unity about a 9 months ago saying it was too defensive hense very turtle friendly.
They really should have considered guard crush though, the Guiles ultimat turtles of the world would really hate that. More offence should open the game up more, can't wait to see the solution.
Posted by omg on December 22, 2009 at 3:52 p.m. #48
Adding Charlie would make sense, since he figures so much into the storyline. I can't wait to see some pictures next week!
Posted by TJHooker on December 22, 2009 at 3:56 p.m. #49
@49 yep...but don't be overhyped too much yet...cause it isn't even known if its true (shadow character i mean)...and thus it isn't necessary is Charlie's clone...it can just be some other clone and called Shadow...might be DARk version of Seth though...or even Guile ! 0_o who knows...time will reveal mysteries...
Posted by Paul on December 22, 2009 at 3:59 p.m. #50
Maybe, hit on block will yield extra super/ultra meter?
Posted by idea on December 22, 2009 at 4 p.m. #51
maybe blocking and moving backwards should slowly drain your ultra meter.
Posted by Paul on December 22, 2009 at 4 p.m. #52
...or even take away meter?
Posted by lol on December 22, 2009 at 4:17 p.m. #53
i hope hes not lying otherwise daigo will unleash the beast
Posted by bahha? on December 22, 2009 at 4:23 p.m. #54
muhahah?lol
Posted by guard break is a bad idea on December 22, 2009 at 4:41 p.m. #55
Why?
1. It encourages online mashing even more than before.
2. It creates a huge character imbalance. I can just imagine all the Ken's and Ryu's running to Bison and Balrog.
3. Most of the people complaining about turtling don't understand the difference between turtling and zoning. For example if your complaining about Sagat or Guile's projectile spam your actually complaining about zoning. But imagine Sagat in a guard break system where every time you block a fireball he gains a slight advantage. It just adds to the pressure of good zoning characters. An example of a turtler is a runaway Blanka or runaway Akuma, that just wants to chip you and run. These characters are unaffected and even gain advantage by chipping your guard break and life in this system.
Posted by One idea. on December 22, 2009 at 4:43 p.m. #56
they can add universal overheads like in Third Strike HK/HP and make taunts select.
Make grabbing tech window slower.
FA faster.
add a short hop. super jump option.
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 4:46 p.m. #57
@zl
seriously, with those 2 gone mashing dps wont be no were near as effective. But then again that bs short cut is another thing that needs to be droped out of the game. After that u just need to take out that bs option select crouch tech bs, add dmg to teched throw(If u tech my throw it does half or even a quater dmg then the regular throw) and shrink the level to sf2 standards.
Posted by @56 on December 22, 2009 at 4:55 p.m. #58
Short hop is brilliant idea. If not that then maybe tap down to fast fall. Would definitely speed things up.
Posted by hehe on December 22, 2009 at 4:58 p.m. #59
it went from turtle fighter 4 to offensive fighter 4..
dont worry after super sf 4 it will become
moderate street fighter 4 :D
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 5:05 p.m. #60
@55
if u have a problem with runners blame the stages. There twice the size of sf2(the standard size). Yea the devs do alot of work to make the stages like nice but i could really care less about all the crap in the back ground when i have to chase a guy for 99 seconds. Guard break would be good for the game, if u dont want to be chiped out u have to do something about it, u cant just sit there like a jerk.
Posted by OG on December 22, 2009 at 5:18 p.m. #61
I bet there will be a time limit bar on Ultras. That would help a lot.
Also, a guard crush without a bar like KOF would be pretty good. :)
Posted by @55 on December 22, 2009 at 5:20 p.m. #62
Easy fix. Projectiles don't go towards guard break. Problem solved.
Posted by Jook on December 22, 2009 at 5:25 p.m. #63
Of course Daigo wants guard crush he uses Ryu. Can you just imagine how much more effective his fireball spam will be with guard crush. He'll have everyone jumping around like chimpanzees. Guard crush without some kind of parry or counter just won't work.
Posted by Jook on December 22, 2009 at 5:28 p.m. #64
@62 hmmm that could work.
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 5:29 p.m. #65
People act like 3 hits will empty ur guard bar. It wont. ANd u would still have the focus to handle fire balls along with nuetral jumping. Why are people crying about this?
Posted by Finally on December 22, 2009 at 5:31 p.m. #66
I wonder if Turtle Fighter IV and Crossup Jabspam IV will change into Rushdown Fighter IV. I hope so.
Posted by dan on December 22, 2009 at 5:49 p.m. #67
how about blocking chips away the EX meter.
Posted by Thank goodness. on December 22, 2009 at 6:08 p.m. #68
Dive kick all day. Scissor kick all day. Tiger knee loop. Akuma round house loop. Gen Hand slap all day. Balrog loops. And lets not even get started on what seth would be capable of.There are just too many stupid situations that will arise. What we need are better grabs or faster gameplay.
Posted by Sukiyw on December 22, 2009 at 6:19 p.m. #69
the only thing that can make SSFIV less defensive is nerfing reversals and spamming.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to rush someone down in a game with really precise links (1F-3F is not a lot o f time) when a single frame you miss means a shoryuken into an ultra.Hell, they'll need to start from scratch for this game to be offensive.
Posted by Takezo on December 22, 2009 at 6:20 p.m. #70
Ultras should be unblockable. If you don't want to get hit just try to dodge them.
Posted by QUeza on December 22, 2009 at 6:27 p.m. #71
Sweeeep.
Metsu Hadouken.
Yeah good plan genius
Posted by @55 on December 22, 2009 at 6:29 p.m. #72
Ur the man good explanation of the differences between turtling and zoning TWO THUMBS UP!!
Posted by Jack on December 22, 2009 at 6:30 p.m. #73
More generous time-frame windows for doing combos would be welcomed. 1-frame links + online play + pressure just doesnt work with some chars.
Posted by hoping for nuetral gameplay on December 22, 2009 at 6:31 p.m. #74
I hope the game doesn't become to offensive. Nor to defensive. Losing to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ120_... is my worst nightmare.
Posted by Seth on December 22, 2009 at 6:46 p.m. #75
Muhahaha!
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 6:53 p.m. #76
@74
Theres tons of dp mashers that play like that online. ANd lets face it, they keep doing it because its geting them wins. I just payed a friend of mind and as a joke he was just trying to jab and mash dp,ultra and super. Whats retarded is that i actually have to respect the mash, which is silly since that crap doesnt work in other sf games. Not even marvel.
@all the people crying about agressive play
They just need to make the game more like hdr/turbo. In that game u can defend urself, but at the same time taking the risk and doing on the attack is worth it. Unlike sf4 were turtling is almost always the best thing to do.
Posted by yes4me on December 22, 2009 at 6:55 p.m. #77
I am disappointed. Making the game aggressive without a guard break works for fast pace games like MvC2. SF4 is quite slow pace in comparison.
Posted by its for the best on December 22, 2009 at 7:03 p.m. #78
If ssf4 had a guard crush I think people would actually be more incline to turtle. Put it this way, if you can't get close enough to me to do your block stings then you can't break my guard. So I would expect a lot of people to do a lot more up-backand and backdashes as well as just camp out and wait for you to try to get in and then anti-air you or poke you. Characters with bad anti-air would be the ones in a lot of trouble.
Posted by serious? on December 22, 2009 at 7:10 p.m. #79
@takezo thats the dumbest comment ive eva read
Posted by hobohitman on December 22, 2009 at 7:11 p.m. #80
Great news. This game really needs a to be less turtle friendly. The best matchs are when people are both attacking and looking for dmg, that turtle crap sucks the life out of sf4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw8SUl...
This isnt street fighter.
Posted by kara on December 22, 2009 at 7:14 p.m. #81
some tiem ago was a rumor about multi-stage FA, i hope that's not what he meant
Posted by zUkUu on December 22, 2009 at 7:16 p.m. #82
don't let yourself be fooled. sf4 will still remain as sf4 is. pace-wise. the statemeat just reads like "ou'll have so much shizzle 4 ma nizzle cool moves and ultra systems that u wont turtle :) :) :) GG".
I personal like sf4. I'd just change the jump to be like Gen's. imo the best jump speed / arc in the game.
even if it wont be in the game:
another option would be the "blocked normals will cause chip damage [say 20% of the normal dmg they'd do] that recovers (liked a focus absorb)". u can block as long as u want but u have to get offensive over the time, since u taking to much risk gettin a hit and reciving the whole charged chip damage.
Posted by Wait and See on December 22, 2009 at 7:19 p.m. #83
Wait and See so you can shut your mouths and not complain about it because everyone knows SSF4 is going to be just as Defensive and aggressive as SF4.
Posted by Yes PLZ on December 22, 2009 at 7:20 p.m. #84
Encouraging more offense might actually encourage your flowcharts to actually learn how to play the game. I still don't understand why people who play like that even play. I mean you're not even trying to learn anything, just mashing out moves and hoping for the best.
Posted by @takezo #70 on December 22, 2009 at 7:34 p.m. #85
That comment was so retarded you should never speak again. And you should most definitely never play street fighter again.
Posted by @80 on December 22, 2009 at 7:51 p.m. #86
those turtle hondas agree'd to draw the first match so i hear.
Posted by Possible solution to offensive problem on December 22, 2009 at 8:12 p.m. #87
They could make the forward dashes really fast, make the back dashes slow and give jump back recovery frames. Keeping in mind some chars will still be slow compared to others like Zangief for example.
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 8:24 p.m. #88
@87
Dude no. THe best thing they can do is make the game more like turbo. Take out option select teching/crouch teching(add dmg to teched throws), shrink the reversal window, drop the auto guard and shrink the stages.
Posted by Megatonbeef on December 22, 2009 at 8:27 p.m. #89
@70
Ultras should not be unblockable. The revenge gauge is your reward for getting beat up you should at least work to hit confirm it.
Posted by No guard crush on December 22, 2009 at 8:52 p.m. #90
Until they fix kara throws..
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 9:17 p.m. #91
@no guard crush
WHo has a good kara throw other then ken. Seriously. ANd what do throws have to do with guard crush? Throwing doesnt even effect the guard meter.
Posted by Madness on December 22, 2009 at 9:19 p.m. #92
Maybe they'll just fix the reversal window so you don't get screwed by ultra when you try to turn the pressure on ryu by his SRK no matter what offense you tried. Maybe they'll make offensive links easier so that it's harder for characters with an SRK to mash and blast you out of it.
Those are two things that would be HUGE for increasing offense, and the fact that reversals shouldn't automatically break armor, then you wouldn't get punished so easily for trying to put pressure on them on wakeup.
But...the turtle thing isn't nearly as bad as people say, unless it's one of the above situations.Most charcters don't turtle for free, and would guard break REALLY be a good idea with the amount of safe moves there are in this game? Viper and bison would be pretty annoying to play against...
Posted by 671 kid on December 22, 2009 at 9:23 p.m. #93
nooooooooooooooooo
Posted by Strider-RagnaroK on December 22, 2009 at 9:32 p.m. #94
I don't know if its a good idea but if turtle tactics are a problem why don't they add command punches to everybody like Ryu's forward MP
thou I don't mind much turtle tactics if it's a charge character is understandable, my main characters are Fei Long Sakura and Ryu (in that order)all 3 of them have command hits that can't be crouch block if I can get close i use those command hits then try to keep the pressure having them reacting to my move instead of thinking for the next one and repeat
Im not a very strategic player but I do that and sometimes I win
Posted by Chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 9:33 p.m. #95
@madness
Bison and viper wouldnt matter. U got ryu with his magical low forward, sagat with his tk strings, Jabbity jab jab(balrog) and the worst would be rufus. But people are really forgeting that guard crush doesnt happen in a few hits. Blockstrings dont last forever, and the guard meter recovers. Also the stages are bigger then older games. So its alot harder to corner people and then get inot ur block strings. This would be good for the game, and im willing to bet right now that it will be in the next verison after super 4.
But yea, the easy mashable reversals takes away from offensive a ton. THe links are fine imo(even though certain combos are impossible online), its just to easy.safe to mash out dps.
Posted by hobohitman on December 22, 2009 at 9:41 p.m. #96
@stider
Charger doesnt equal turtle. People that think so just dont understand how to use them.
Posted by Strider-RagnaroK on December 22, 2009 at 9:47 p.m. #97
when i ecounter them the first and only thing i see them do is to hold back down either way i never said is equal to turling i just said is understandable to use it as a tactic
Posted by boobee cakes on December 22, 2009 at 10 p.m. #98
@ hobohitman
I agree. My mains are Boxer, Honda, and Guile, and I am far from a turtle, even my Honda. I play so smooth with them, it doesn't even look like I'm charging my moves =)
Charge characters are all about learning to keep your charge. No matter what you do, and what happens, as long as you are charging, it counts. Even before the match starts, your charge is building up.
Posted by @83 on December 22, 2009 at 10:04 p.m. #99
I totally agree with you. SSF4 isn't going to be any different. It is going to be the same damm Turtle game, they are just bullsh!tting people in hopes people actually believe their bullsh!t that it will be a more aggressive game. Just how will it be more aggressive?
Posted by ARJ08 on December 22, 2009 at 10:13 p.m. #100
S-Killan with the evil laught...
It'd be funny if all the rushdown characters were high tier and the more defensive ones were crap...
Posted by Madness on December 22, 2009 at 10:17 p.m. #101
Bison and viper would be bad because of their specials that can be used repeatedly, but they aren't the only ones who have them. You can knock sagat out of his tk strings....can't do much against ryu...I don't find balrog that bad,rufus' weakness is actually a good turtle, but point is,guard meter would be a terrible idea for this game without changing a ton i think.
I play Guile so alot of my good combos are 1-frame links, meaning it's a mashers heaven to play against.The reversal window NEEDS to be looked at if they want this to be a more offensive game. Auto-correct SRK could use some tweaking as well. Basically, the top tier characters can all be REALLY offensive so they just need to give the lower characters more of their tools(tick throws,throw range,easy cheese links,more cancelled normals, ultra setups,better crossups)
Looks pretty easy to me
Posted by skid Riff on December 22, 2009 at 10:18 p.m. #102
make FADC cancels cost 1 EX bar and a lot more moves be able to FADC out of. Everybody will go on the offensive more if moves are a lot more safe.
Posted by Joseph on December 22, 2009 at 10:25 p.m. #103
I really don't understand why people complain about turtling. I'm guessing these people don't know how to adjust strategy and just start turtling yourself. Wait for them to get impatient and make mistakes. It usually works for me... The thing I enjoy most about SF is there is a balance between offense and defense, and sometimes you can't just go all offense, sometimes you have to wait for openings, sometimes you have to bait your opponent, sometimes you need to be patient.
Posted by Weaksauce on December 22, 2009 at 10:27 p.m. #104
FADC cancels are pretty retarded for sagat and ryu...if they only cost one bar that'd just be dumb
Posted by pandassassin on December 22, 2009 at 10:45 p.m. #105
@ boooee cakes... u sir are exactly right i main dictator, claw, and guile and use them the same way smooooth . keeping the charge up no matter what the situation is the way ur suppose to play wit charge characters. turtles r people who just dont use them to their full potential
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 10:45 p.m. #106
@skid
Make fadc even better for ryu? LOL cmon now. Maybe they could do something like canceling normals costs one bar canceling specials costs 2. But it still wont change the fact that alot of characters cant take advantage of the fadc.
@madness
SO if u dont like guard break then i guess u dont like chip dmg. So should they take that out aswell? I mean there basicly the same thing. If the scissors/thunderknuckle loops were that good i wouldnt lose. And u have guile, u can throw a sonic boom or flash out of it. Mind u if u get pressed in the corner thats kinda ur on fault. GUile has the advantage in the bison v guile match up. I was just playing alittle alpha 3, and unless u seriously sit there and dont move u shouldnt get crushed. Its just a reminder that u actually have to fight.
@joseph
Thats the real problem with the game. If u turtle i have to turtle back. Try that crap in turbo and see what happens. ur crazy if u think sf4 has balanced off v def
Posted by Martyr on December 22, 2009 at 10:48 p.m. #107
I have a good yet pretty drastic solution to turtling in SSF4.
Basically what I'd like to see is a revamp of Focus attacks where it would always be an overhead hit; this would add alot of mind games against blockers. In order to make this work though we'll need to remove the anti-air properties of Focus attacks.
I really think this would make life harder for turtlers; but I really don't know if that would work against all characters.
So here is a run through of what I think Focus attacks should look like.
1- Make FA go through Lv1-3 one second faster.
2- Focus attacks are overhead hits resulting in alot of headaches for the turtler.
3- Focus attack cancel backdash should have shorter backdash range. Forward Dash should be same.
!!FA Cancel into sweep would insanely pwn. :)
Posted by Martyr on December 22, 2009 at 10:52 p.m. #108
Continuation:
Also for the sake of balancing; Lv1 FA should not be an overhead. Only Lv2-3. With only Lv3 having the Anti-Air properties.
You can just imagine the looks on the scrubs faces once they get KA-POWED! right in the back of there head into a crumple :P
Posted by Madness on December 22, 2009 at 10:55 p.m. #109
Nice chickenwing,but you missed the point. The point is, with guard break moves that don't have a recovery time in the punishable range are WAY too strong, that's um....sorta kinda probably why they aren't putting it in the game, so don't know why you're on about it when the other solutions are far better.
How good a turtle is really depends on who they are using and who you are using, like i said it really isn't nearly as big a problem as people make it seem.Maybe if you're cammy and playing against turtle balrog...
Posted by @30 on December 22, 2009 at 11:01 p.m. #110
I disagree. Reducing reaction time means people will take less risks in countering, resulting in more defense.
Posted by chickenwings on December 22, 2009 at 11:08 p.m. #111
@madness
I know it isnt gonna make it in the game. But I the only one i see with a move that would be abusive if it was added would be sagat with his tk. Bisons sk isnt that bad, its safe but its on a charge. Yea i can loop them, but u have time to reversal out of it.
I would like to see guard breaks but if they just made the game more like turbo i think the turtling would take care of itself. Im not saying playing defensive shouldnt be an option but if ima take the risk and bring the offensive i should be rewarded if im succesful.
Posted by Megatonbeef on December 22, 2009 at 11:12 p.m. #112
I think Chickenwings has the right idea, in that if you want to make a more agressive fighting game you should look at the example set by super turbo/HDR. But both those upgrades were made to improve sf2's play stly. SF4 was made to be easier to learn for beginers Capcom would want to find a way to make turtling harder to win by without adding something to difficult for new players to use. I'm confident we will see some improvement but we may never have a HDR type of aggrsion game.
Posted by Madness on December 22, 2009 at 11:14 p.m. #113
Sagats knee has 7 frames of punishment whle bisons has none, sagats knee is only safe at ONE distance and bisons scissors is safe at any depending on the strength.
The point where the game REALLY starts to be defensive is when you realize how good FADC SRK ultra is, or if you have characters that are already really strong but are guaranteed to land their ultra. You beat them up, and then you have to sit because you don't want to get ultra'd. If you attack often, you WILL get ultra'd, so why would you want to be offensive?
That's a point Daigo also made, FADC SRK is retarded in the cases of ryu and sagat. It's not broken all around, but it's just dumb that the strongest moves in the game are also about the safest possible options and come with the strongest characters too.
Posted by Sadness on December 22, 2009 at 11:21 p.m. #114
rufus ex messiah kick into ultra is ten times worse.
Posted by @45 on December 22, 2009 at 11:25 p.m. #115
I'm not sure yet up to which point there's some magical auto-correct in SFIV. To be fair, I get more corrections in 3S than in IV, but it could just be due to differences in character/play style. But so far, my impression is that "correction" in IV is actually just like it is in 3S, the actual difference being the larger reversal window (people finish their shoryuken move way before the character is actually standing up, and by the time the move is finally starting it's already time to flip). Larger input window also helps, but not nearly as much as the reversal.
That's not to say it can't be improved, though. Buffered specials could have a fixed direction when the move is recognized, for example.
Posted by Jaf on December 23, 2009 at 12:22 a.m. #116
Auto-correct charge Ultras, as timely as they can be sometimes, should be removed. Examples: Honda punishing a Blanka ball with Ultra after jumping over him; Balrog having his headbutt FA'd, landing behind the opponent and boom, auto-correct Ultra
Posted by TMNT on December 23, 2009 at 1:08 a.m. #117
Turtle style is acceptable if the opponent uses a character that has a shorter startup time for the execution of moves. For instance, Akuma and Ken have very short animations, enabling them to use a lot of their normals as pokes. Ken even has a lot of auto-correction when his attacks are blocked. Against those characters, you can't rush down with slower shotos. If you use Ryu to do a dragon punch against Ken who does a dragon punch at the same time, he will hit you and if you're "lucky", it will trade with Ken getting the benefit of the trade. In those matchups, it's perfectly acceptable to turtle.
The good thing is that in general, turtling works better for slower characters. If Ken starts to turtle, it will mostly end up in him being beaten. Faster characters need to play a faster game with more rushdown.
The biggest drawback of a turtle-friendly game like SFIV is that it cripples the use of newer techniques. What's the use of Challenge Mode Hard Trials if they are unusable? The only way to do them in SFIV against a turtle is to wait 'til infinity until you get an opening. SFIV feels more like waiting than actually playing. It's the waiting which is so annoying. Waiting for the opponent to do something while he refuses to fight. Comparable to waiting for your girlfriend doing her makeup while you are already too late for an appointment. Not that serious SF players have girlfriends in the first place, but still.
Posted by chickenwings on December 23, 2009 at 1:35 a.m. #118
@madness
Understand this about scissors. After the third scissors im far enough away for u to do something. On top of that u can jab and throw him out of the begining of the scissors. This is the reason u have to space scissors correctly on a jab mashing balrog. But u dont have to believe me, u play guile so u know how to work a charger. Go to training mode and try it for urself. I do the same thing when i hear that such and such character/strategy is unstopable/unfair/sucks, i go to the training mode and try to duplicate the setup/combo, practice it alittle they fight people with it.
Other then that i agree with everything else. A smaller reversal window and no auto correct would help alot. Just bring the game back to its turbo status. Again like u said, shrink the reversal window, no auto guard, no short cuts(the game is very forgiving as it is), no trip guard, no crouch/option teching, teched throws do half damage/quater dmg). ALso they need to adjust the ultra and super meters. Geting hit should only grant ultra meter, NOT SUPER. Only landing hits and doin special moves should give super. Its stupid that i could be pounding on someone just to give them ultra and enough ex stock to fadc ultra me.
Posted by cuttyb87 on December 23, 2009 at 1:36 a.m. #119
The parry system can't work for the style of game stf is because people who Pick gief learned to master the Parry system look out
The Alpha counter was a good systema nd I hope it comes back because its cool to use defense mixed in with offense and it will only use 1 ex meter
The Fadc system is cool but people complain about the range of their characters attack ALA Ken players, Rufus and Balrogs they say their focus attacks sucks beacuse of range maybe they should fix the FADC system so people can finally stop complaining about the game lol
BTw I use the FADC system to get in close to an opponent they usually jump over me and I can shoryuken out of the sky sometimes u have to crack the turtles shell open lol
Posted by RoK the Reaper on December 23, 2009 at 1:42 a.m. #120
Well, I've been thinking a lot about this and giving my two cents on this.
Speeding of the game is one option to most people, but what you don't understand that speeding up the game too much is an impossibility. C.Viper is extremely technical to play, even at this speed and speeding it up to the point of Turbo would make her unplayable, so this is not a factor.
My opinion is that they shouldn't nerf Sagat or Ryu, but rather they need to make everyone better in order to get them to that level by giving them new moves and tweaking other moves. For instance.
Cammy - Give her an overhead, make her Quick Spin Knuckle less frames since it's her Guard Break, and make her TK Canon Strike from the air an overhead (If they don't give her another overhead instead).
Dan - Make his Super not last the whole time, make it like Refuses' Ultra if it whiffs. Make his Ultra Armour Breaking, a Focus cancel should not be able to stop an Ultra. EX Fireball should go full screen. And the only way into his Ultra shouldn't be wasting 4 bars of Ultra to super taunt into it.
Other things would be giving people universal overheads, or giving them moves that they can do a move, focus cancel and go into Ultra (Without the use of a EX Move) and have the full Ultra land.
Ryu, his Full Ultra lands no matter what and does the Maximum damage. Kens Ultra doesn't if he doesn't connect, and Cammy.. Ugh.
Cammy's Ultra is VERY hard to land from all setups except going through a fireball, Focus cancelling, and doing the combo of :Canon spike FDAC-forward, Canon spike, FDAC back ,into Ultra (Which is her hard trial). Other than this, landing the ultra after spinning back fist, only one Canon spike FDAC back and her Leg slicer after hooligan are all not guarantee'd.
For an example.
Posted by Machineking1313 on December 23, 2009 at 2:01 a.m. #121
Good to see Seth calling out the Daigo dick riders.
Posted by rumor list will fail you on December 23, 2009 at 2:12 a.m. #122
SETH IS PR AND DOESN'T HAVE 2 CENTS ON WHAT IS GOING IN THE FINAL GAME BESIDE WHAT ONO'S TEAM TELLS HIM.
now on to how to make ssf4 more aggressive friendly. I believe chip on non fireballs should be increased but combo damage scaling for chip should be increased so u cant just chip with combos all day. so turtles can't just sit there with 9 on the counter thinking they'll win with 1/10 life more by blocking or dodging everything. it will force them to dodge more then block giving both players more to think about.
and the return of charlie (with a haircut please, yes i want that lock gone) and rolento as mentors to Abel might just help both fit. but thats only if the rumor list is wrong, only way to find out is wait.
Posted by 50 is right on December 23, 2009 at 2:16 a.m. #123
I think the way the ex meter will charge will reward offensive play. Ono said something will be done to prevent special moves spam in the void to charge up ex meter. So it is likelly that hits in guard will charge up the ex meter more than "empty special moves".
Posted by qwer on December 23, 2009 at 2:18 a.m. #124
Guard crush should be the last resort for creating a more offense based game. Giving proper mixup options as the number one option, then increasing viable chip damage for number two option should be considered way before guard crush.
Posted by @121, on December 23, 2009 at 2:49 a.m. #125
You can't ride that when its slapping the USA on the forehead all the time.
Posted by FADCultra on December 23, 2009 at 3:42 a.m. #126
Reliable 100% ultra setups for EVERYONE or NO ONE.
Posted by that's gross wtf?! on December 23, 2009 at 3:48 a.m. #127
Machineking1313, most Daigo dick riders also fondle his balls while riding. They feel the hair on his belly and lick his face while riding.
Posted by FOOLS! on December 23, 2009 at 3:57 a.m. #128
A lot of valid points have been brought up to make SSF4 a more offensive game. I like.
I'd like to make a suggestion. Not sure what part of the game this will improve. Hopefully it will crush the fear of being offensive: Make an Ultra combo a set amount of damage. What I mean is: Currently, an Ultra combo will do an amount of damage based on how "full" the meter is. I think they should scrap that and only have ONE level of damage, and only when the meter is completely filled. It will certainly stop people from using it as soon as possible, and then getting the opportunity to use a second one in the same round.
Being rewarded for getting your ass kicked is ridiculous enough. 2 Ultras in one round takes it too far. Obviously the damage output will depend on the character.
And might I mention...PLEASE tone down the damage on Blanka's Ultra. WAY TOO MUCH. BLOCKING it as Akuma takes away about half my health. Sure, I can teleport, but then I lose my opportunity to punish with my Ultra afterwards.
Posted by Alfarin on December 23, 2009 at 4:01 a.m. #129
More offensive? Me and my Cammy are going to love this...
Posted by SureYouCan! on December 23, 2009 at 5:01 a.m. #130
visible stun bar plz.
Posted by downrite fierce on December 23, 2009 at 5:11 a.m. #131
Seriously. ken is already beastly already and fun as hell to play. I can't wait for ssf4, the amount of smackdown I'll be dishing out will be amazing. But...I will have to try out dudley, too ;]
Posted by Ken Mashing FTW! on December 23, 2009 at 5:39 a.m. #132
I love mashing online. It gets me my wins and that's all that I give a f*ck about. There's nothing you f*cking pussies can do about it either. Only thing you f@ggots can do is go into forums and whine about it like f*cking little bitches haha.
But, who am I kidding right? Even if you f*cking f@ggots had me face to face you wouldn't do ANYTHING.
Stop crying f*cking F@GOOTS! ^_^
Posted by Alfarin on December 23, 2009 at 5:40 a.m. #133
@131 Actually, looking at the feedback from the community and the overuse of Ken, id expect him to be nerfed/Rebalanced completely.
Posted by Blankas Ultra? on December 23, 2009 at 6:03 a.m. #134
Blanka's ultra does the biggest damage and it should. -> its hard as hell to hit with it (it isn't worth sh1t as aa, the crossup trick doesnt work always, links into it are 1 frame and you have to be touching your opponent etc.) and everyone can punish it with an ultra always.
Posted by JWong Fanclub on December 23, 2009 at 6:06 a.m. #135
Remove blocking. That should make the game more offensive.
Posted by lawl on December 23, 2009 at 6:27 a.m. #136
"Street Fighter 4 should of had a guard break bar"
Holy grammar fail, Batman!
Posted by @#132 on December 23, 2009 at 6:30 a.m. #137
Hey Ken masher, I suppose you look like you're fapping:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQyk-A...
watch 1:25 lol
Posted by Serious Fighter on December 23, 2009 at 6:36 a.m. #138
There are quite a few things they can do...
1) Nerf escaping options from characters e.g. Ryu's air tatsu(change angle of projectile), Akuma & Seth's teleport(more recovery, compensate by giving them more hp) etc.
2) Make background/stage smaller...
3) Give each character an overhead normal or special move
4) Tighten reversal window...
Hope they do at least 2 of these ...the game will be alot better..
Posted by yes4me on December 23, 2009 at 7:14 a.m. #139
For the record, I have been talking about guard break on probably my very first post... so it is not like I waited for Daigo. I didn't even know Daigo wish for it until now.
Posted by nosrsly on December 23, 2009 at 7:17 a.m. #140
Uhh, what forums has s-kill been reading? Players have been saying the game is too turtle friendly since the very beginning. Even though it spoils Seth's funny little passive-aggressive jab at the community, this talk did not just start since Daigo said it.
Posted by no no no. on December 23, 2009 at 7:17 a.m. #141
please dont change to what ever you thinking of doin capcom.this game doesnt need it.people jus need to play the game like its supposed to be played.attack and defence zoning and mind games with all the characters combos.they jus need to buy a stick and learn.then all this turtle will stop cos people with pad find it hard to block so they stay away and when they do attack, 3 hits the most.so less damage to opponent and leave themself open to(if player is skilled with 10 plus hit combos).also lags the problem online.fix lag problem sloved.
Posted by guard crush on December 23, 2009 at 7:32 a.m. #142
If you really want guard crush prepare to bow down to your rufus overlord even more in the future. Also I seem to recall alpha 3 being by far the least balanced alpha game so where did all of this love and respect for it come from? That just made me remember Cody and guard crush. Combine that with FADC and we have super fast guard crushing that you can't get out of.
It really helps to understand a lot of previous fighters at high level play when considering how certain mechanics would effect the game.
Posted by Person who actually likes S-Kill on December 23, 2009 at 7:46 a.m. #143
"Uhh, what forums has s-kill been reading?"
Capcom unity, SRK, and probably even a few others including this one. That would be his job after all.
"Players have been saying the game is too turtle friendly since the very beginning."
Yes they have but reader comprehension makes this a little different.
When adressing the idea of guard crush we hear "Seth: Yes, a lot of people have had this same idea, and after not mentioning anything for 9 months or so after release, they all coincidentally had it after Daigo mentioned it in an interview :P"
Well if I remember anything about reading that basically only addresses guard crush and how a lot of people have jumped on that band wagon recently. Seth Killian has noticed this trend and is simply pointing out that people rapidly follow what Daigo says and sometimes base their opinions heavily on his word.
"Even though it spoils Seth's funny little passive-aggressive jab at the community, this talk did not just start since Daigo said it."
Since the issue is the guard break flood I think we can close the hate on this one. Next issue to address "why do people hate on S-Kill for giving educated opinions and taking jabs at people who say silly things that would not help? Most companies would just sit back, take it, and make things even dumber in the followup game.
I look forward to the next version of the most balanced street fighter and all of the new things it will bring.
Posted by hahahahaha on December 23, 2009 at 7:59 a.m. #144
no one cares about you scrubs that only play on fckin xbox live, you guys suck hahahahhah always crying and whining about something, rofl, why dont you get better
Posted by lololol on December 23, 2009 at 8:19 a.m. #145
like xboxlive Dekor LOLOLOL - true scrub who uses turbo fire on his custom arcade stick yet still loses to random players. HE GOT DOMINATED
Posted by zig_zag on December 23, 2009 at 9:09 a.m. #146
let sirlin rebalance this game ahahaha
sf4 hdr lets go
Posted by anon on December 23, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. #147
You're conversations are all just lovely but you all really ought to look at #27.
Posted by sirlin on December 23, 2009 at 9:18 a.m. #148
dont let sirlin anywhere NEAR this game. HDR was a catastrophe.
Posted by noob on December 23, 2009 at 9:37 a.m. #149
what exactly is guard crush? I never played after sf2, so I have no clue what this is
Posted by Hipocrip on December 23, 2009 at 9:39 a.m. #150
Is Seth Killian claims Diago made them want to make the game more offensive and how come they are not going to make an aracade release then? Maybe they are the rumor list is right so far and maybe this is the Tandan saving crap thats going to be released
Posted by Drkanje on December 23, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. #151
Just dont let any kaffirs touch the game and it should be good... well, as good as it can be with the slanted-eyed go0ks and kikes touching it.
Posted by yoo on December 23, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. #152
in my opinion , in order for them to make a more offensive game of sf4 ... they should
1) reduce the overall damage of the characters ( e.g sagat !!!)
2)forward and back dashing have less recovery time !!
3)make normal moves when used as pokes fill the ex meter just like 3s.
4)universal overheads please capcom !
5)players should be allowed to use one ultra per round .
6)supers takea lot of damage and take forever to fill ,reduce their damage and make people use them often e.g (every three ex bars filled = a super with 9 bars in total.
with certain characters ...supers are of no use at all when it comes to pro players.
Posted by LunaSlave on December 23, 2009 at 10:07 a.m. #153
want to make the game more offensive? speed increase won't help, and i agree w the above poster who mentioned that a character like Viper is already extremely technical and hard to play at high levels at the current speed...
personally, I think making throws more effective is the way to go, and a way to do that would be to combine the current system of throw reversals - where the characters just push off one another and the throw doesn't happen - with 1/2 damage throw softening ala ST. Currently you have 7 frames to reverse a throw - so perhaps, on the first two frames, the characters push off each other like it is in SF4 now - and if the player is a little later than that and hits their jab+short in the remaining four frames, their character gets thrown, but softened landing like in ST/HDR, and takes a small amount of damage. I think this would add more offensive depth to the game, while not introducing anything counterintuitive to those who already know the SF4 system well.
How could this work with grabs? Doesn't make much sense to add throw softening to grabs - but since there's no button mashing system like in ST, grabs could be strengthened by making them do more damage if successful - but to compensate, there's no throw softening, just the existing reversals with a full 7 frames to cancel them.
Posted by anon on December 23, 2009 at 10:27 a.m. #154
So I see a lot of suggestions here to make the game less defensive, but not a lot that actually fit "reasons not to spend too much time blocking." For example, reducing the size of the stage, adjusting jump trajectory and game speed, none of those really have anything to do with blocking.
So what could he have meant by that statement?
Some things I can think of that would encourage people to spend less time blocking, other than guard crush:
1. Something along the lines of GG Negative Penalty: If a player spends too long moving backward or not attacking they start to lose meter. I don't think this would work out too well with the SF4 super meter because it builds relatively slowly compared to past incarnations, but it could work with the Revenge Gauge.
2. Re-addition of taunt effects? If taunts give a self-buff, turtlers would be forced to go on the offensive to combat the advantage you would gain by taunting.
3. Something related to the new FA system mentioned in the leak? Perhaps if your opponent lets you do too many empty FA's, the power or properties of the FA (or your other moves) will increase.
4. Maybe something to do with the multiple-ultra system - it's possible or even likely that you simply select them before the match, but for all we know you might be able to interact with ultra choice in some way based on your actions in the match.
Posted by BullDancer on December 23, 2009 at 11:07 a.m. #155
Yes this game is going to be sick as hell now that they are adding some offense in it. But isnt this game something like third strike with more offense in it though(I love 3s)?
Also I wouldnt disagree if this game was sped up a bit, the action is too slow and playing/watching the game being played is painful.
Posted by @Anon on December 23, 2009 at 11:56 a.m. #156
"So I see a lot of suggestions here to make the game less defensive, but not a lot that actually fit "reasons not to spend too much time blocking." For example, reducing the size of the stage, adjusting jump trajectory and game speed, none of those really have anything to do with blocking."
When there are blockings going on, I don't consider that turtling... turtling is when both players just walk back and forth, neither is attacking... and the reason they're not attacking is because it is not safe to attack... reversals, ultras, supers, punish on block,... and this is escalated when players have the options to run away in the huge stage.
Posted by Wolfkrone on December 23, 2009 at noon #157
Yea having a Guard Crush would make fireball spamming alot more dangerous
Posted by Herpderp on December 23, 2009 at 12:12 p.m. #158
I love how some of you seem to forget that Daigo and the rest of Japan were playing SF4 way before it came out for consoles. "9 months ago" was the console release so Daigo has had plenty of time to speak.
Guard crushing doesn't really need testing because a stupid player like me can already see that it would need HEAVY tweaking to work. As it is it would only make the tier gaps even bigger. It just wouldn't fit the SF4-engine.
Posted by @156 on December 23, 2009 at 12:16 p.m. #159
Agreed. People on here keep complaining about blocking but any turtler that is blocking your attacks more than he is countering your attacks isn't do his job well. If you are consistently getting in on you opponent, mixing up different attacks and your opponent manages to block and tech everything you throw at him then he is a much better player than you. But the funny thing is if he's letting you get in on him so much he's not to good either.
The real problem with offense in this game is that you have to predict a poke or fireball to get in on your opponent but a good turtler won't do anything because as long as he doesn't do anything its unsafe for the other person to attempt to get in. Changing anything that has to do with blocking doesn't help. Your suppose to block if somebody is attacking you. Characters that can pressure with fireballs do good against turtles but there need to be a way all the characters can pressure. Also something needs to be done about runaway strategies.
Posted by Bruce Leroy on December 23, 2009 at 12:23 p.m. #160
Wanna take the turtle out of Street Fighter 4? Simple. Bring back the parry and bring back the guard crush. Those two elements would increase offensive play. The whole game would open up and be more action oriented. The turtlers could still get their turtle on, but they would be "encouraged" via the potential loss of their precious blocking to actually do something besides sitting there staring at the opponent.
For those not familiar with these two elements of Street Fighter gameplay here are the official definitions:
Guard Crush(From Street Fighter Alpha 3)
Your Guard Power Gauge shortens while you're blocking. When your Guard Power gauge runs out, your blocking is broken. If you refrain from blocking, the gauge will gradually recover. If your Guard Power Gauge drains out, it shortens.
Parry(From Street Fighter 3: Third Strike)
Press the joystick toward the opponent for an upper attack or down for a lower attack the moment your opponent's attack hits you. If you succeed, you can move first and take the advantage.
Combining these two elements from past Street Fighter games into Street Fighter 4 would definitely help remove some of the turtle from the game. I would also make performing successful parries as a way to quickly refill the guard power gauge as another way to encourage the players to get off their butts and fight.
Posted by Madness on December 23, 2009 at 12:52 p.m. #161
Sometimes i wonder if people know what turtling is. I've rushed down some people with guile and had them call me a turtle because i was playing guile. I agree with another poster, the problem is NOT blocking, the problem is not being able to be as offensive as you'd like because it's not even safe no matter which option you were going to use.
Examples: I use my target combo on ryu and he SRK's me out of it before i can even get the second hit out
I try to crossup ryu/sagat
I try to apply wakeup pressure to ryu/sagat
I try to apply pressure to ryu in the corner
I use a block string
I attempt to use a link
I jump
I use a poke and attempt to use footsies
I try to tech throw after ryu/sagat FADC's when they had two bars left
I can go on and on. If nothing is safe then alot of players will turtle. And chickenwing...i'm not saying scissors is overpowered, i'm saying moves like it would be too strong IF the guard break was implemented right now.
Posted by @160 on December 23, 2009 at 12:59 p.m. #162
Those things worked great in THOSE games and it is what made the whole game in opinion (and I think most people agree). But it wont work how the game is now and they would have to fix so many things in order to get it just right. No its better to move on and come up with something new!
Posted by Megatonbeef on December 23, 2009 at 1:13 p.m. #163
The way S-Kill mentions you'll have less of a reason to block seems to suggest we will have greater offensive options. I don't think thier looking for ways to punish blocking or make it less effective.
Posted by @163 on December 23, 2009 at 1:18 p.m. #164
I sure hope so cause punishing blocking is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You'd pretty much be telling everyone to play random and throw reversals out every other time someone attacks.
Posted by question on December 23, 2009 at 1:49 p.m. #165
Question for all you geniuses out there.
Assuming some of you play crappy FPS's.
How would address the 'problem' of 'camping' ?
Think about it.
Posted by chickenwings on December 23, 2009 at 2:06 p.m. #166
Honestly, the game wont need tweaking for guard block. Play alpha 3 without the custom combo and see how long u have to block before u get crushed. ALso see how long it takes to recharge. Also with guard crush all it would do is free u up for one combo. So in essence, it would be like hiting someone with an max lvl focus attack and geting the crumble effect. And like i siad, it would only be good for one combo, whether it be a regular combo or an ultra. People need to man up.
@madness
Dude, i could do the same thing with scissors in alpha 3, and bison doesnt dominate that game. I already explained it to u why and how to get out of it, if u dont want to listen then i dont know what to say.
Posted by Madness on December 23, 2009 at 2:27 p.m. #167
I don't know what you're having trouble understanding. In THIS game if THIS game had guard break, the scissors and many other moves IF LEFT THE SAME would be too powerful.
It doesn't matter about how it is now, we all know it's not too strong now, why don't you stop talking about it? Why bring up a different game with different game mechanics and act like it's the same thing?
Wtf man he already said that there's not gonna be guard block in THIS game, so let it go because there are plenty of other reasons why people turtle.
Posted by chickenwings on December 23, 2009 at 2:37 p.m. #168
@madness
Because it wouldnt be. Ur just crying for the sake of crying. I told u how to get out of it. After 2 or 3 of them im too far to continue the loop. So what the hell is the problem?
Posted by skum on December 23, 2009 at 2:40 p.m. #169
the new game should reward instant blocks with 1 or 2 frames of invincibility.
Posted by Alfarin on December 23, 2009 at 3:11 p.m. #170
@165 Since i play battlefield a lot, i do what any rational person does - blow up the cover.
Seriously, the onlypeople who complain about campers are children, or people with the mentality of children.
They also tend to play COD.
Posted by chickenwings on December 23, 2009 at 3:29 p.m. #171
@alfarin
Me poping some grenades on a camper has nothing to do with holding down back in street fighter. Making the comparion is just retarded.
And yes i play bf:bc
Posted by @alfarin on December 23, 2009 at 3:39 p.m. #172
yeah the closest comparison that could be made is using a projectile of some sort, but not every character has projectiles.
Posted by @170, on December 23, 2009 at 3:43 p.m. #173
^
:)
Posted by Chuck Norris on December 23, 2009 at 3:56 p.m. #174
Actually the comparison of camping and turtling is pinpoint.
It reflects the same defensive mindset.
Go watch videos of Poongko if you dont know how to rush down.
No more crying about defense, or i'll show you some.. self defense.
Posted by Fireblind on December 23, 2009 at 4:13 p.m. #175
bring back parries, but still make them vulnerable to armor breaking moves so the entire game won't boil down to nothing but parries.
Posted by turtling = losing on December 23, 2009 at 4:22 p.m. #176
I use to be a very defensive player before but now I realize turtling sucks. You gotta RUSH THAT SH*T DOWN!!!
Posted by overhead on December 23, 2009 at 4:27 p.m. #177
Give everyone over head normals that leave characters with frame advantage on hit. Holding down back won't feel so safe anymore and back dashes can be punished if that becomes the new crutch
Posted by guard crush on December 23, 2009 at 5:28 p.m. #178
put in guard crush and watch Rufus become the best character (not that he isn't already one of the best), but those big combos, that safe multi hitting big chip dealing galactic tornado, and that EX messiah kick being even more useful sure doesn't sound that appealing. Thank goodness they didn't go that route.
Posted by @178 on December 23, 2009 at 6:26 p.m. #179
Well said.
Alpha 3 was garbage anyway.
Second worst version of SF ever.
With SF EX taking top honours.
Posted by ballofshlt on December 23, 2009 at 6:44 p.m. #180
give everybody a fireball and a spinning pile driver
Posted by fight on December 23, 2009 at 7:01 p.m. #181
Theres too many safe moves in the game with rufus and viper give them guard crush see what happens.
Posted by Huh? on December 23, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. #182
What move does viper have that's safe? There is none. Every move she has she can be grabbed out of or loses to reversals. Why do you think they gave her fients? To look cool? You could time burn kick cross-ups on wakeup to be pretty safe if thats what you guys are talking about but auto-correct ultra leads to trouble. And if you think thunder knuckle stings are safe there not.
Posted by @182, on December 23, 2009 at 7:20 p.m. #183
You forgot to address Rufus.
Guard Crush? Sure. If you take out Rufus from the game completely as well as dictator's short scissor kicks.
Can't believe this is still being discussed.
If you can't crack into a turtle defense, figure out what you're doing wrong and change it.
Stop making it everyone elses problem.
Posted by Ryo on December 23, 2009 at 7:42 p.m. #184
they should have taunting drain your opponents revenge gauge like in art of fighting.
Posted by H-U on December 23, 2009 at 8:54 p.m. #185
Turtle fighters? How
Let's look at the top tier shal we? Sagat
How does sagat turtle? Most people in this thread are saying he turtles by sitting at the end of the screen throwing tiger shots, Well actually morons that's a SHOTO problem not a turtling problem.
A guard break would just add more characters to the unplayable list because some characters 90% rely on a turtling stratergy and EVEN THEN they do not make top tier.
If it was turtle fighters, It would show in the tiers, It isn't.
With that said: I'm not 100% against the idea, It would be great in mirror matches, All of them, ESPECIALLY HONDA V HONDA.
But outside of mirror matches i can easily see guard break being abused.
But if people seriously feel that SF4 is too defensive then as many people have pointed out: There are much better alternatives to combat that problem rather then a guard break which will just ruin everything and further gap the tiers.
@111 I'm sorry what? You ARE rewarded for taking a risk, If you succeed in a rushdown THAT IS YOUR REWARD.
There are much better improvements that could be made to the game, For instance: Getting hit SHOULD NEVER give anyone super, it should only give ultra so that if you get hit all game you cannot FADC into ryu's ultra for instance. You didn't earn the FADC as the person landing jabs and combo's on you did.
Or let's buff gen and viper so they are actually playable, Let's start there shal we?
This post = opinion
Posted by ActualProof on December 23, 2009 at 9:11 p.m. #186
Buff Viper.. wow u kinda hurt ur entire arguement... Viper hands diwn best character in the game if her stamina wasnt so bad. Look up Joe's c.viper he gives daigo's ryu a run for his money. Turtling isnt just blocking Sagat's tiger wall is a form of turtling because he never advances his position thats considered zoning but it still holds on to the same principles, never advancing ur position maintaining a bubble that ur opponent can never truly penetrate. Maintaining a "shell" if that makes more sense to turtling.
Gen doesnt need buffing damage wise he does a lot of damage he needs more tools which will probably be added with the new system. Really what makes most low tiers low is because thy cant combo into their supers or ultras like a sagat can. Or thier supers and ultras do crap damage unlike blanks or akumas that are virutually useless except when they hit or chip do a lot of damage.
Posted by H-U on December 23, 2009 at 9:34 p.m. #187
Well gen needs buffing SOMETHING-wise because right now there really is no use playing him in competitive matches.
And if you can't counter a shoto without a shoto that just shows lack of experience.
There's teleporting in there is jumping in to grab there is jumping in and attacking at a precise time to combo into a few other moves there's absorbing projectiles through focus attacks. And I'm sure there are plenty of other ways too, But new players being new, Don't know these things, Thus they fall apart when they can't counter projectiles with projectiles.
But these are the kinds of players that can't properly anti air and punish missed grabs/focus attacks. So they lose in a number of ways regardless.
And how can you say viper is the best character in the game.... I'm replying to the same person lol.
Posted by @187 on December 23, 2009 at 9:50 p.m. #188
what he's saying is viper as of now is one of the better characters in the game. The only real disadvantage she has is low stamina. If you were to buff her, assuming by buff you meant to give her more stamina she would be unstoppable assuming the all the other characters weren't given more stamina as well.
As far as the game not being as turtle friendly as people make it out to be I'd have to agree with you. There are character matchup situations where you can't help but fall victim to turtling but for the most part turtling isn't really a great strategy. My only real concern is that the stage is to big and people tend to runaway after being overwhelmed by solid rushdown.
Posted by ActualProof on December 23, 2009 at 9:51 p.m. #189
The only thing viper lacks is stamina and damage (per say though higher damage would be monstrous). The only reason why viper is #11 on the tier list is because she 4-6 against Sagat, Rufus, Balrog, Bison, and some other guys who are all the heavy hitters. And Sagat Rufus Balrog in general need to be toned down, cuz its just ridiculous how such a heavy hitting sagat its like a gattling gun with fireballs.
Anyway, she has no other bad match up nd her bad match ups arent because of her move-set but because she cant take damage from these ridiculously hard hitting top tier characters who r top tier for that reason. If everything was the same damage wise she'd be the best character. Just because she's difficult to use shouldn't reduce her standings either.
Posted by Mr obvious on December 23, 2009 at 10:43 p.m. #190
Since Ryu, Sagat and Rufus has some easy aass FADC into ultra,s just give about everybody else a similar option
Posted by ActualProof on December 23, 2009 at 11:09 p.m. #191
@190 pretty much is that was the case the tiers would look a lil more balanced. I practice my Shoryu FADC (f*ck A Duck Cancel) with chars like fei long or viper or cammy and if they could ultra into their shoryu moves completely these would be a lot better cuz fei long could be a beast with some viable options.
Posted by chickenwings on December 24, 2009 at 12:40 a.m. #192
@mr obvious
Chargers still would be able to fadc into ultra. So it doesnt work that easy. ANd theres ALOT more that makes ryu,balrog,rufs sagat top tier then just having fadc ultra setups. Abel has a really easy ultra setup and i dont see him way up in the tiers.
Posted by Bili on December 24, 2009 at 4:58 a.m. #193
If fei long can fadc his dp intu ultra in the new game he will officially be a friggin beast. hcb throw->dp->fadc->ultra
Posted by KidD on December 24, 2009 at 5:02 a.m. #194
I tell you what they need to do to make this game less turtle friendly SPEED UP the focus attack thats it, problem solved, funny how no one mentioned that
Posted by baz on December 24, 2009 at 5:02 a.m. #195
Ok what do u guys think of this idea? "to stop turtlers. As the character life goes down they get speed increases so they have more of a chance to throw or hit a turtling player"
The charge characters have no choice but to turtle a lil though.......
Posted by Foolish Idea on December 24, 2009 at 11:59 a.m. #196
Put a small amount of chip damage on normals, BANG problem solved.
Posted by CHickenwings on December 24, 2009 at 1:17 p.m. #197
@foolish idea
chip dmg on normals would be retarded. I can imagine people just mashing safe pokes then running away. And in essence a guard meter is basicly what u just suggested. the difference being that normals take away from guard instead of ur health bar.
Posted by FACT on December 24, 2009 at 1:56 p.m. #198
@Chinckenwings lol man, his name is "foolish idea"... youre the retard lol
Posted by sf4 needs readjustment on December 24, 2009 at 2:02 p.m. #199
what has to be changed is the damn Focus Attack, try and use it as a Parry system and you will get hit right in the face... i mean if you want to counter your enemy and it is only charged to lvl 1 the enemy will recover faster than you will ... this sh_it has happened to me so many times :( i mean seriously that would serve those damn gay c.lp idiots, i can get a FA in between those punches but my hitting focus attack neither cripples them nor renders them with a little longer hitstun ... nooo they recover faster than i can. boom big combo damage -.-" if id play Fagat or something those things wouldnt be that important, but for cammy or dan or something, the FA needs to be better
Posted by no readjustment necessary on December 24, 2009 at 2:46 p.m. #200
Cammy and Dan are fine as they are.
Just ask Sanford.
Posted by baz on December 24, 2009 at 6:14 p.m. #201
@"foolish idea" I think that's a pretty good idea, makes sense too, you would take a lil bit of damage if you blocked in real life as well.
Posted by sf4 needs readjustment on December 24, 2009 at 6:17 p.m. #202
cammy and dan are really fine espeacially when it comes to comboing into FULL ultra, like fei long can do it ^^
Posted by TJHooker on December 24, 2009 at 7:02 p.m. #203
@199 actually Focus attack system will INDEED get changed...now it will be called Tadan Saving (multi-level focus attack...), still not sure how it affects gameplay though...
oh and why the hell does everybody hate Sagat so much, calling him Fagat ? ^^ that is not his fault after all that Capcom made him so cheap hehe ^^
@201 LOL to the trolls...
@203 the only real thing that would have happened in real life is that - it'd feel really painful hehe ^^ ...nothing makes sense while it is computer or console game ^^
...oh and nevermind me posting that nuch, i just try to beat personal amount of posts ever put on any forum and community LOL ...just kidding ^^ ...i'm in a good mood today, so i won't call anybody Nigga hehe ^^
Posted by Psycho on December 24, 2009 at 7:02 p.m. #204
Did really Daigo said that? I can't fu***g believe it
Posted by Psycho on December 24, 2009 at 7:09 p.m. #205
A3 is broken as f**k I don't know why daigo would said that but whatever... if SSFIV is really more agressive then chars like Cammy, Fei Long, Vega will rock since they are known as fast characters. fast = agressive, I think
Posted by Luis on December 24, 2009 at 7:26 p.m. #206
The problem with SFIV is that the recovery time is too slow, you can get ultra'd after your enemy blocks your low sweep kick, that never happened in any street fighter.
Posted by TJHooker on December 24, 2009 at 7:53 p.m. #207
...to the previous poster...
...well its a good thing not bad thing, cause its given you advantages over your opponent too if you played with charge characters for example like Guile, Balrog etc...its not forces you to keep your distance away you perform charge move...that was always been frustrating in SFA3, while i couldn't use such players like Guile and Balrog at all, now i have a fair chance to use them...slow recovery give average casual players like me chance to learn and master charge characters like Guile and that ccant be bad thing...
Posted by BullDancer on December 24, 2009 at 7:53 p.m. #208
One last thing on the SFIV wish list, make reversals harder. I played someone who has never touched the game before, and kept on getting cracked with random uppercuts after knocking him down, and he's just mashing moves uppercuts out like crazy.
Posted by chickenwings on December 24, 2009 at 11:05 p.m. #209
@luis
What are u talking about? I been hiting ryu with supers after whiffed sweep since turbo.
@bulldancer
I had the same thing happen with a friend of mine. U have to actually respect the mash which is stupid. BUt like i been saying over and over, just take the reversal window etc and bring it back to the turbo standards.
Posted by cliqph on December 25, 2009 at 8:56 p.m. #210
They should allow normal moves the ability to build super meter to stop the turtling cuz once a turtling douche. See a fully. Charged. Super its all over with the turtling and the game would be a lot faster like championship edition. Which would be awesome and maybe. Like n 3s the game should go in that direction
Posted by Madness on December 25, 2009 at 10:59 p.m. #211
"Because it wouldnt be. Ur just crying for the sake of crying. I told u how to get out of it. After 2 or 3 of them im too far to continue the loop. So what the hell is the problem?"
Problem is that you can't understand anything like i said. How could you have told me how to get out of it if it doesn't even exist? Durrr.
Aaaaanyways like i said they aren't putting that BS in this game, probably for reasons i mentioned, so you can keep talking about it if you want.
Posted by Chickenwings on December 25, 2009 at 11:19 p.m. #212
@madness
Amazing. Ur the one that says scissors is god mode if they were to put in guard crash with the game being in its current state. So i explained to u how to get out of if they added guard crush without changing anything. Seriously, lrn2read.
Posted by Chickenwings on December 27, 2009 at 3:48 a.m. #213
The more i play the game, the more i hope seth wasnt bsing. I had a pretty solid session today and EVERYONE turtles. Its insanely boring. THe problem is the good ones abuse auto guard and option techs so its even worst. The match boils down to a few pokes and then running away. They really need to do somethin with that crap. A played alittle hdr when i compare it to sf4 i was shocked that they called this game street fighter.
Posted by Madness on December 27, 2009 at 8:55 p.m. #214
I wonder how you play if you think that moves with no recovery time wouldn't be the least bit questionable if there was guard block....pretty interesting. I could tell you how you'd beat out just about anything in the game by spamming one normal and a certain special, but i'm sure you're just playing dumb.
Posted by just a young but tired gamer on December 28, 2009 at 8:12 a.m. #215
man i think that shoryuken was probably the worst mistake that campcom made in their really really good game street fighter 4, over all that little mix of fast hadokens with low recovery with this guy ryu, at least ken takes some time to recover, and even worse his shoryuken is slower, well i just hope they change that a little bit, besides from that this game is all right
Posted by Cid on December 30, 2009 at 12:34 p.m. #216
Is it me, or was it this same dude that said that the parry system was overruled and replaced with the focus system to make the game more offensive?
Now they're saying the game is too defensive... Make up your damn mind capcom!
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