Posted by monkeydhugo on February 18, 2009 at 10:25 p.m. #1

Thanks

Posted by Harrison on February 18, 2009 at 10:37 p.m. #2

Question: Why does (Block stun)-(Recovery) NOT equal (Frame Adv. Block)? What am I failing to understand?

For example Viper's close light punch stuns the opponent for 10 frames when blocked, meanwhile I recover from this poke in 7 frames. I would think that, from the mathematical difference, Viper then gets a frame adv. block of +3, but the chart says +2 instead. Please explain. Thanks!

Posted by Arch on February 18, 2009 at 11:58 p.m. #3

Harrison:
If you hit on the first active frame, which is the general assumption, all active frame from then on will allow the opponent to recover.
(Frame Advantage Block) = (Block stun) - (Recovery) - (Active - 1)

Question: The block column lists a number for throws. How do you interpret that value?

Posted by Sin on February 19, 2009 at 3:47 a.m. #4

EVENTHUBS people:

You should clarify something really IMPORTANT about the startup and active frames:

If XMove has a startup of 3 frames , and 2 Active frames:
I suppose this means that XMove starts hitting in the 3rd frame and continues hitting until the the 4th frame.

Not that is takes 3 frames to start and hits during the 4th and 5th frames. Otherwise a lot of combos that exists won't be possible.

Posted by BHeaggans on February 19, 2009 at 5:03 a.m. #5

@Sin

Well Sin the way I learned it is that if a move has a start up of 3 frames then the move would hit in the 4th frame. And the links are possible in that respect because you can link any move that there start up is less then the recover frames of the move that came before it as long as the move has hit advantage. Like a example is Ryu in where his cr.jab has advanatge of 5 frames and you can link that to his cr. strong which has a start up of 4 frames. This is what makes the link time tight because you have only 1 frame for error. So when you play the game even tho links are to hard but if you do it to fast or to slow you miss the link time which isn't good and leaves you open.

Posted by ashn0d on February 19, 2009 at 5:20 a.m. #6

"For example, Ryu's Standing Hard Punch when done up close has a total of 38 frames of animation, which means it takes 38ths of 1 second to execute the entire move"

shouldn't it be 38 60ths of a second?? as a frame is 1/60 of a second

Posted by SIN on February 19, 2009 at 7:10 a.m. #7

@BHeaggans

Dude, you totally misunderstood my point. I don't have any problems doing links and that's NOT the point, as you say, at the beginning I tought that if a move says 3 frame startup, then it begins hitting in the 4th frame. But it's not like this using the frame data provided in this site.

For example, Bison's cr.lp gives you a +5 on hit, and his cr.mk has a 5 frame startup, which means that if it hits in the 6th frame the link wouldnt be possible. BUT IT LINKS, because even if it says 5 Frame startup, it's actually 4 and starts hitting in the Fifth. (And I'm taking the cr.lp as a normal hit, not counter crouching anything the other player)

I ask the Eventhubs staff, precisely THIS, to point this out for people new to frame stuff.

Unless I'm actually wrong and has to do with the game code that those combos work.

Posted by Bheaggans on February 19, 2009 at 8:50 a.m. #8

@Sin

I didn't say that doing the links was your point, I used it as a example. And you have a good point using Bison because I was just reading up on that. So my bad on misunderstanding what you were saying. And it makes perfect sense the way you put it.

Posted by GreenLeaf on February 19, 2009 at 9:59 a.m. #9

@ SIN
I think your correct on this one.
It hits on the last start up frame.
4 frames start up=4th frame hitting

Its different from other frame data of most games, but I think thats how these are read in SF4

Posted by BHeaggans on February 19, 2009 at 1:03 p.m. #10

Yeah I agree. In all the other games is normally different. But in SF4 its like this and you can tell because you actually can slow input the links.

Posted by Harrison on February 19, 2009 at 1:46 p.m. #11

Arch, thanks for the clarification.

I considered that formula, but nixed it because it doesnt seem to apply to air moves such as Viper's burning light kick in air. Following the general formula, that would be 20 - 8 - (8-1) = +5; but the frame adv. block is actually listed as +8. So, I guess air moves follow another rule.

What I dont understand is how distance from your opponent is accounted for in the frame data. Since combo links depend on distance, which varies.

Posted by Jordan on February 20, 2009 at 1:41 p.m. #12

sheesh.. just play the game

Posted by Harrison on February 20, 2009 at 4:23 p.m. #13

Waiting for it to come out for PC. =(

Posted by baz on February 20, 2009 at 9:01 p.m. #14

you know what? is anyone here really planning strategies based on this stuff?

Posted by SSJ3X on February 20, 2009 at 10:35 p.m. #15

I can't read frame data. Plain simple. Its just something I could never do. I just play the game and give it my all. That's what really counts... at least for me.

Posted by Rodeo Drive...... on February 21, 2009 at 6:09 a.m. #16

Frame data dont mean nothing if you panic or get rushed down.

Posted by baz on February 21, 2009 at 12:22 p.m. #17

I think it's for when people spam a move and you want to know what move you have that either a. snuffs it in the beggining
b.counters it after it has been done and is in mid swing, or c. punishes the move after it has missed

Posted by John on February 21, 2009 at 1:49 p.m. #18

Yes I am planning strategies using this because i can see which moves have priority and compare recovery times very important stuff

Posted by spike on February 21, 2009 at 9:04 p.m. #19

I see what you guys are saying, imagine the whole thing like a flipbook so you can dodge a fireball and such... so clever. ;\

Posted by Nerds on February 22, 2009 at 10:06 a.m. #20

Nerds gotta live amirite! good luck making it out of moms basement.

Posted by Panda on February 26, 2009 at 3:03 p.m. #21

How to use frame data 101:

If a move has small startup, it's probably good for stuffing.

If a move has small recovery, it's good for pressure or a tick throw setup or both.

If a move has considerable active frames, you can probably use it as a good meaty.

Knowing what is special or supercancel-able is always a good thing.

If this frame data was more complete, we could also see how much invunerability various moves have, which is good knowledge to have.

Posted by baz on February 28, 2009 at 6:08 p.m. #22

the time has come for revenge of the nerds

Posted by Dante on March 4, 2009 at 10:44 a.m. #23

Nerdom is used to describe an obsession. You came here so don't be a poor sport. Frame data is important especially on a creative level. With it you can develop combos and strategies that someone else might not use. If you're going to come to a site like this you need to understand that especially with fighting games there exist two groups -- Casual(scrub :D) and Hardcore(pro).

The casual play for fun. They get better with repetition of favorite specials and supers and typically play popular characters (though there are obvious exceptions). It is often people like these that claim tiers mean nothing since they disregard match ups completely. They will learn the occasional advanced combo but miss the rigged stuff completely (a good example is Ken's Kara Shoryuken in 3rd strike) and stick with B&Bs or 2 in 1s. Zoning and mix-ups would also be completely alien concepts to them.

The hardcore derive fun from competition. Its not about just playing the game -- its about being as good as you can and knowing different ways to deal with different well defined situations. If they know that characterA's low mid has a faster start up and longer duration than all of characterB's low standard attacks than it becomes a viable strategy to spam it to some capacity when fighting THAT characterB. Or perhaps a rush-down charA's anti air can be beat with a well timed meaty jump in from another charB to keep them from gaining the offensive. In a world where people seek the decimate each other in battle the need to know the rules of the space in which you clash is of utmost importance -- knowledge is power -- and thus we have frame data.

I tried to explain frames and such to my friends while we played SF3 3rds but they would have none of it. Fine, I said -- so I won 90% of the time. I'd go through nights of being undefeated. With SF4 they are more interested in the intricacies which is great because then I'll have more fun being pushed to get better and better.

Posted by papasmurf on March 15, 2009 at 11:46 a.m. #24

i cant read some of the icons for chun li's super and ultra move what do you do

Posted by Chompy on March 25, 2009 at 7:52 p.m. #25

when there is a number in the Block part, what does it means? i know is grabs, but how do i know if the bigger the number the better or the other way around?

Posted by Chompy on March 25, 2009 at 7:56 p.m. #26

How do i check how much range the attack has?

Posted by wow on March 27, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. #27

wow you guys are way to in to the game

Posted by Raziel on March 27, 2009 at 7:27 p.m. #28

I'll try and clarify things a little... When working with 2D graphics vs. 3D graphics things work a little differently. In 2D, you will physically load frame 4 when it needs to be displayed - once frame 4 is reached in other words. Once this frame is loaded, it is considered active.

3D graphics works a little differently to this because you have to interpolate from one frame to the next (it makes the animation look nice and smooth). What this means to you however, is that frame 4 will be loaded as soon as frame 3's animation has been reached, otherwise you couldn't interpolate between frame 3 (where the current frame starts) and frame 4 (where we are interpolating to).

So the move actually becomes active just after frame 3 has been reached, so at frame 3.01 for example it will be active because frame 4 has been loaded so you can interpolate from frame 3 to frame 4.

Posted by Raziel on March 27, 2009 at 8:02 p.m. #29

My post is meant to compare 2D and 3D and what difference it makes to reading frame data, but having read it, I think the following might clarify things even more:
In 2D frame 3.5 would still be inactive because you keep re-displaying the same frame for the entire duration until you actually reach frame 4, at that point, you load frame 4 and it becomes active.

In 3D, 3.5 will already be active since you loaded frame 4 as soon as frame 3 was fully reached. This gives the illusion that it switches to active a frame early, but it really just comes down to when the data for frame 4 is actually loaded.

So the frame data is actually 100% correct and is interpreted the same way as earlier SF games, you just have to think about when the data for the next frame is actually loaded.

Posted by Mizar on April 10, 2009 at 11:17 a.m. #30

@ wow on March 27, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. #27

Lol, oh hi you must be new to the hardcore gaming scene.

Posted by effestop on April 30, 2009 at 7:09 a.m. #31

Hi, is there a way from those frame data to get the priority of each attack? Or is it something related to startup? Or active frames or both? When/why does a damage trade happens? Thank you very much.

Posted by J on April 30, 2009 at 12:40 p.m. #32

Dante:

Casual and scrub don't mean the same thing.

Posted by hokihokit on May 2, 2009 at 10:28 p.m. #33

What tha...

What happened to the old school of trial and error?

When it comes to PC, are you going to battle by writing the macro on the game's console?

Posted by tehemperorer on May 8, 2009 at 3:55 p.m. #34

@effestop:

Priority is a combination of the concepts of invincibility frames and hitboxes and I think it is too complex to explain graphically. If a person were to explain it, they would need to show a model of the hitbox of every frame during every attack that every character has for others to be able to compare priority between moves.

The best I can do is explain the general idea behind it: As a character goes through their animation, their hitboxes move and change location. Each character has two hitboxes, called offensive and defensive hitboxes. I will call the defensive boxes "blue" and offensive boxes "red." If my character's red box overlaps your blue box, I score a hit, and vice versa: if your red box overlaps my blue box, I get hit. Red hitboxes come and go and change depending on the attack, and blue boxes change depending on invincibility frames and being knocked down. How does this determine priority? Here's an example:

Take Ryu's h.shoryuken. He kneels, then slowly he rises up and his blue box around his head area rises while his arm (red box) rises faster and higher, and grows bigger. He even moves forward a little bit too, which would change the x axis location of his blue and red boxes. As Bison, I use the Headstomp on shotos a lot because I know it has higher "priority" than the shoryuken. This just means that more often than not, the headstomp will encounter a blue box on Ryu before the shoryken encounters Bison's blue box. What really happens is that the red box at my feet extends far beyond the blue box, where during the headstomp is somewhere near Bison's thigh, and because it is longer than the red box on Ryu's c.hp, it will overlap Ryu's blue box without his red box overlapping mine. Obviously invincibility frames remove Ryu's blue box for a few frames on startup, meaning that there is a chance to trade hits if I headstomp too early. Also, if I time it too late, his shoryuken red box was allowed to get larger and therefore WILL overlap my blue box when my red box overlaps his blue.

In general, players instinctually come to learn the priority of their moves, but it really is just noticing where hitboxes are at the point of attack between two characters.

Here is a link to a photo illustrating what I mean:
http://www.sirlin.net/storage/street_...

Posted by runuts on May 11, 2009 at 6:36 p.m. #35

Range data would be nice, if @Gilley and/or @DannyCat read this, and are able to mesure it easily of course.

PS : This is some really usefull data, it helps me a lot to understand the game. Like "why does this basic move gets punished everytime it's blocked?", or "why is that move 'combo-able' and not that one?". Of course I'm not counting frames on my tv screen, and of course that doesn't make me a better player, but at least now I understand things. Thx for publishing this anyway.

Oh and @tehemperorer : very usefull stuff to know too, thx.

Posted by Oculus-Orbis on May 13, 2009 at 2:57 p.m. #36

@tehemperorer

Thanks for explaining Hitbox priority to these folks.
I've been griping about the lack of hitbox data since forever. Having display in training mode would rock.
Sure we have tons of frame data, but even with this, people often have difficulties with certain moves/Char. match-ups.
Hitbox Data could potentially remedy many of these issues, as hitbox and frame data go hand in hand...
(frame=time;hitbox=space)
CAPCOM seriously,
...wtf?

BTW tehemperorer
Are you on PSN or XBL?

Posted by Gabriel on May 13, 2009 at 10:21 p.m. #37

I think I'll never get this much into SF4, but thanks for the interesting tips lol.

Posted by tehemperorer on May 15, 2009 at 11:11 a.m. #38

@Oculus-Orbis: Thanks man, Im an XBL scrub hehe, tehemperorer is the tag, go ahead and send F request!

@Gabriel: Yeah you will! After playing a bunch of matches, you learn what moves are punishable after blocking, and what you can do to another character on wakeup that is safe. This is exactly what learning frame data is, the only difference is you study the game and how it works instead of the chart at the top ;)

Posted by effestop on May 19, 2009 at 8:45 a.m. #39

@tehemperorer

Posted by effestop on May 19, 2009 at 8:47 a.m. #40

@tehemperorer

Thank you, you've been so helpful and exhaustive.

Posted by tehemperorer on May 19, 2009 at 3:03 p.m. #41

@effestop np man

Posted by mattvsobi on May 28, 2009 at 6:07 p.m. #42

Wow this is deep! I thought I was a pretty hardcore player but now I feel positively novice! Any PS3 legends show me how it's done? I'm mattvsobi

Posted by mr jumpman on June 26, 2009 at 12:46 p.m. #43

can someone nicely explain wat the hell frame data is, nd how to read it, witout going off subject, or out there ?

Please

Posted by shax_ on July 7, 2009 at 11:38 a.m. #44

how frame in a second i think its 60 but i'm not sure would like 4 some to let me know. ;-)

Posted by shax_ on July 7, 2009 at 2:27 p.m. #45

sorry i mean how many frames in a second i think its 60 but i'm not sure would like 4 some 1 to let me know :-)

Posted by ZeaviS on July 22, 2009 at 12:28 p.m. #46

Can someone explain to me some of the notations that I see on blanka's frame data?

For example, on his ultra it has start up of 1+4, why the +4? Why not just say 5? Obviously there is some significance to that but it is not explained. Same thing with the recover for the beast roll, I see a 2+4, so I'm not really sure how to read that.

Also, I have no idea how you would read the active frames for blanka's electricity.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

Posted by WhyDelilah on July 25, 2009 at 7:03 p.m. #47

Why does a fighting game need to be so complex, I'd have wrecked a few controllers and had some skin grafts on my fingers before I master this game. The annoying thing is you know its possible to see some amazing gameplay yet its really difficult to keep up with timing as its too tight and kills your mingers!

Posted by thomas on July 26, 2009 at 6:10 a.m. #48

could anyone tell me if this "frame data" thing will help mee in hard trials at all? thanks

Posted by xkingdom on July 31, 2009 at 12:33 p.m. #49

actually, the answer is no. you have to have a TE fightstick and be a serious and sometime super lucky player to achive that.

Posted by xXAngelBoyXx on September 1, 2009 at 3:02 p.m. #50

isn't there a list of invincibility?

if u use bison's head stomp on start up after beaten down without EX and the opponent attacks u, u will be hit
but the EX version has this invincibility like a shoryuken effect.

where can i read this in the chart?
i'm looking for the best way to recover from being beaten down with bison

should i?
Teleport
EX scissor kick,
EX head stomp
or EX devil bringer or whatever

Posted by shax_ on September 8, 2009 at 2:58 a.m. #51

here is a link where the socal player ed ma explaining frame data download free sample 7. which is really useful imo which makes frame data more clear to understand. i hope this helps guys.
http://gootecks.com/street-fighter-4-...

Posted by cowboy_soultaker on December 1, 2009 at 10:18 a.m. #52

learn it and love it, this is how players like Daigo play.

Posted by ET on December 6, 2009 at 7:14 p.m. #53

This frame data chart needs some kind of "glossary" to help clarify what some of these symbols represent. My guess is that this information was scanned from the SFIV Master Guide (only published in Japanese--no English) so the information in this chart comes to us without translation. I think I have it figured out, but I'm very new to SF IV, so someone please correct me here if I'm wrong.

When you see something like "2(4)4" (Akuma's Close HK) in the Active Frames column, that means the move strikes twice--the first number "2" shows the active frames for the first strike, the last number "4" shows the active frames for the second strike, and the "(4)" in parentheses shows the number of frames in between the first and second strike.

When you see something like "1+4" (Akuma's Ultra) in the Starting Frames column, the "1" represents the initial startup frame, the "+" represents frames outside of gameplay, and the "4" represents the remaining number of startup frames when the animation returns to gameplay. So, although Akuma's Ultra shows a total of 5 startup frames, that "+" could actually represent something like 60-120 frames! While the initial super/ultra animation is cool to look at, it sure telegraphs the move to your opponent.

When you see an "*" (asterisk) between two numbers, it is used to divide the data on successive hits. So, when you see something like "80*60" in the Damage column, that means that the first strike hits for 80 points damage, and the second strike hits for 60 points damage.

"D" stands for "Dizzy" or "Crumple-Stun", I'm not real sure.

The only symbol I'm not real sure about is "/" (backslash). I think it might be similar to the asterisk in that it divides information regarding successive hits, but I'm not sure on this one.

Maybe one of you Street Fighter gurus can help explain some of these symbols used in these data charts. I hope I've helped, but I apologize ahead of time if I'm wrong on some of this stuff.

Posted by DVS on December 23, 2009 at 5:13 p.m. #54

Ow. My brain hurts. I didn't know playing street Fighter was so mathematical

Posted by ORONACHINGADO on December 23, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. #55

So what's better, having a move that's 40 out of 60 frames or 60 out of 60 frames per second?

Posted by clam01 on December 31, 2009 at 5:33 p.m. #56

Oronachingado: 40 out of 60 frames is better because it's faster and takes less amount of time ( 40 frames < 60 frames ). 40 frame move will come out faster than a 60 frame move.

Posted by clam01 on December 31, 2009 at 5:38 p.m. #57

Assuming starting from 0 frames. For Kens standing jab, 4 frames startup, then on the 5th frame, the jab hits when active frames begin?

Posted by Oronachingado on January 11, 2010 at 6:45 p.m. #58

Thank you very much clam01

Posted by Joxcent on January 18, 2010 at 6:50 p.m. #59

lol... sounds like science to me!!!

Posted by frames on January 21, 2010 at 11:04 p.m. #60

@53

'D' stands for knock-down.

/ stands for how much meter is gained on whiff/block or hit or block/hit (for fireballs). since you gain meter for whiffing specials the first one is for whiffs and the second one is for connecting.

@57

it's actually active on the last start-up frame. that's why you can link stuff like st. lp> st. hk. yea it's a little different than 3D frame data, but overall the same thing. that's why if you go on the shoryuken wiki or have the guile book the total frames is always one less than when you add up the start-up, active, and recovery frames.

Posted by repeatsin on January 28, 2010 at 10:21 p.m. #61

i know it doesnt mention it on this page but it would be nice if we could see which frames are invincible on moves for ex: on the shoryuken show the start up frames and which are invincible. just a suggestion

Posted by Mantic on April 4, 2010 at 10:05 a.m. #62

@Raziel: You assume something I'm not sure is the case normally. That is, that interpolation occurs. It certainly never did in any of the older arcade fighters, 2D or 3D. They all locked the display at 60Hz.

I haven't got the hardware here to know if SFIV actually does interpolate at higher framerates, but that would be a nice way of taking advantage of those multi-GPU rigs, so they probably do. However, what you posit about the handling of "keyframes" doesn't sound right to me. The timing aspects of the game should still be fixed, not based on some if statement reliant on the animation data but coming before the animation in execution. If it were done the way you describe, would that not cause timing problems in networked games?

I would more suspect that the input timings are hard-fudged to account for said hardware disparities and other latency issues. It's a shame Capcom's programmers don't tell about this stuff -- I remember learning a lot about the early VF series from explanations the developers provided about their i/o implementation.

Posted by YAYIAMLEET on May 3, 2010 at 7:16 p.m. #63

Too long. Don't care anymore.

Posted by Yakitsukuse on May 10, 2010 at 9:14 a.m. #64

Something I'm not getting: I've heard people say multiple times that Boxer has a 3 frame jab and that's why it's really good and blah blah. But when I look at the frame data for his jabs, they seem like they're the same as everyone elses.

What am I missing here?

Posted by ds123 on May 21, 2010 at 7:50 p.m. #65

Why does frame data continue to confuse everyone? All it is is just a breakdown of how long a move takes to start up, how long it takes for you to recover from it, and how long it can actively hit your opponent - all down to the 1/60th of a second.

Replace to word "frame" with "1/60th of a second" and it'll make everything infinitely easier.

Posted by StrangeOldMan on June 27, 2010 at 6:20 a.m. #66

I think frame data analysis is really getting a bit too far. Playing the game often enough and you will get the feel of each move, their reach and timings.

Posted by shadow050 on July 14, 2010 at 3:02 p.m. #67

aha! i knew most ppl had a faster jab than vega... ridiculous, when one remembers how much vega's speed is supposed to be revered. he has longer start up and recovery than many people on his attacks.

he IS quick, but that's often cancelled out by the extreme strictness of inputs for him.

Posted by jinrou626 on July 25, 2010 at 7:34 p.m. #68

I hope eventhubs is giving credit to the Super Street Fighter 4 Technical Guide by Enterbrain because that's exactly where they got the frame data from. I can tell because they have the same frame mistakes :)

Posted by julesaiah on July 30, 2010 at 11:58 a.m. #69

man this is really good stuff, too bad i don't understand this... :( maybe in the future...

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